Attention, gun control supporters:

[daveman]

IOW, I'm right, you have no viable alternatives.

Let's look at the CN case:

Theft is illegal. The shooter stole the weapons anyway.

Murder is illegal. The shooter killed people anyway.

The guns he used were legally purchased by the person from whom he stole them. When he attempted to purchase a rifle, he was refused.

What more could be done? CN has among the strictest gun laws in the nation.

What more could be done?

By that logic there's no reason to have age limits on selling alcohol because some minors will get ahold of it anyway.

So why are you insisting that criminals will obey the law if we pass JUST ONE MORE?

 

[daveman]

How are you going to get criminals to obey the law?


I've never gotten a rational, workable answer to this question in all the years I've asked it on this and other boards.

That is a really stupid question. Obviously criminals do not obey the law or there would be no laws and no criminals!!! But at least we can make it hard for them. You right wing nuts want to make it easy. Why?? Because YOU want to carry a gun and feel important. It has nothing to do with protecting anyone. You do not want gun control because then you can't have your toy. Idiots.

You want to make it harder for criminals to get guns by passing laws that won't have any affect on them, as you've just admitted.

Who's the idiot, again?

 

[daveman]

Yes.

See? This is why you're going to lose more and more of your gun rights.

Why? The $400 license isn't a deterrent to someone who wants to own a $5-10,000 gun.

The law has nothing to do with the availability of the weapon, only the PRICE limits ownership.

There are about 200,000 legally owned, fully automatic weapons in the US and you NEVER hear of one used to commit a crime.

It's not the gun, it's the USER.

Irrational gun haters can't understand that.

 

[daveman]

How are you going to get criminals to obey the law?


I've never gotten a rational, workable answer to this question in all the years I've asked it on this and other boards.

Most gun deaths are suicides and domestic violence murders...

removing the guns would greatly reduce gun deaths.


Japan had 11 gun homocides while we had 9158.

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.1/gun_facts_6_1_screen.pdf

Myth: Access to guns increases the risk of suicide
Fact: The rate of suicide is not affected by the presence of a firearm. This is true in either a time-series analysis (like the chart at right showing the change in handgun supply in the U.S. over time),415 or through cross-national analysis. For example, Japan has no private handgun ownership (aside from an extremely limited number of licensed Olympic sport shooters), and yet had a suicide rate more than twice that of the United States in 2002.416

Myth: individuals who commit suicide are more likely to have had access to guns417
Fact: This is a classic causal effect. If someone decides to commit suicide, and they choose to use a gun, they will first acquire a gun. As noted before, the total rate of suicide does not change when a gun is present because the victim will choose a different method.​

Myth: Japan has strict gun control and a less violent society
Fact: In Japan, the total murder rate is almost 1 per 100,000. In the U.S., there are about 3.2 murders per 100,000 people each year by weapons other than firearms.38 This means that even if firearms in the U.S. could be eliminated, the U.S. would still have three times the murder rate of the Japanese. Whereas Japan’s murder rate may be low, its suicide rate is over 20 per 100,000 people. Combined, Japanese are being murdered and committing suicide at a rate of about 21 per 100,000. In the U.S., our combined murder and suicide rate is also about 21.​

I know these facts won't penetrate your willful ignorance, but normal people might read this.

 

[daveman]

Criminals do not obey the law. That's why they are called criminals. Gun Control is not an overnight solution. It would take years and the cooperation of all to eliminate the vast amount of guns available out there. Will it completely eliminate gun related crimes? Of course not. No one has even pretended to have that answer. Look at every other country with gun Control and check out their stats surrounding gun related deaths against the US's. If you believe it is not because of the easy availibilty of firearms then I would like to hear another rational idea. And don't go down the Lack of Morality or No God issue because the US has more Christians per capita so those reasons actually disprove that assertion..




But I find it odd that the overwhelming majority that support the NRA are Christians.

You're operating under some mistaken assumptions.

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.1/gun_facts_6_1_screen.pdf

Myth: Countries with strict gun control have less crime
Fact: In America, we can demonstrate that private ownership of guns reduces crime, but from country to country there is no correlation between gun availability and the violent crime rate. Consider this:
Or, to use detailed data, we can contrast the per capita homicide rate with the per capita gun ownership rate between different industrialized countries (see graph below). Contrasting the data shows zero correlation between the availability of guns and the overall homicide rate.

Fact: Countries with the strictest gun-control laws also tended to have the highest homicide rates.1
Fact: According to the U.N., as of 2005, Scotland was the most violent country in the developed world, with people three times more likely to be assaulted than in America. Violent crime there has doubled over the last 20 years. 3% of Scots had been victims of assault compared with 1.2% in America.2
Fact: “... the major surveys completed in the past 20 years or more provides no evidence of any relationship between the total number of legally held firearms in society and the rate of armed crime. Nor is there a relationship between the severity of controls imposed in various countries or the mass of bureaucracy involved with many control systems with the apparent ease of access to firearms by criminals and terrorists.”3
Fact: Switzerland has relatively lenient gun control for Europe4, and has the third-lowest homicide rate of the top nine major European countries, and the same per capita rate as England and Wales.5
Fact: Indeed, the Swiss basically have a military rifle in nearly every closest. “Everybody who has served in the army is allowed to keep their personal weapon, even after the end of their military service.”6
Contact Crime Victimization Rates
Fact: “We don’t have as many guns [in Brazil] as the United States, but we use them more.”7 Brazil has mandatory licensing, registration, and maximum personal ownership quotas. It now bans any new sales to private citizens. Their homicide rate is almost three (3) times higher than the U.S.8
Fact: In Canada around 1920, before there was any form of gun control, their homicide rate was 7% of the U.S rate. By 1986, and after significant gun control legislation, Canada’s homicide rate was 35% of the U.S. rate – a significant increase. 9 In 2003, Canada had a violent crime rate more than double that of the U.S. (963 vs. 475 per 100,000).10
Fact: Many of the countries with the strictest gun control have the highest rates of violent crime. Australia and England, which have virtually banned gun ownership, have the highest rates of robbery, sexual assault, and assault with force of the top 17 industrialized countries.11
Fact: The crime rate is 66% higher in four Canadian Prairie Provinces than in the northern US states across the border.12
Fact: Strict controls over existing arms failed in Finland. Despite needs-based licensing, storage laws and transportation restrictions,13 Finland experienced a multiple killing school shooting in 2007.14​

Myth: The availability of guns causes crime
Fact: Though the number of firearms owned by private citizens has been increasing steadily since 1970, the overall rate of homicides and suicides has not risen.169 As the chart shows, there is no correlation between the availability of firearms and the rates of homicide and suicide in America.
Fact: Internationally speaking “There’s no clear relationship between more guns and higher levels of violence.”170
Fact: “... a detailed study of the major surveys completed in the past 20 years or more provides no evidence of any relationship between the total number of legally held firearms in society and the rate of armed crime. Nor is there a relationship between the severity of controls imposed in various countries or the mass of bureaucracy involved with many control systems with the apparent ease of access to firearms by criminals and terrorists.”171
Handguns, Homicides and Suicides
Fact: Handgun ownership among groups normally associated with higher violent crime (young males, blacks, low income, inner city, etc.) is at or below national averages.172
Fact: The most significant correlation between the use of guns in the commission of crimes occur when parents (27.5% of inmates) abuse drugs or have friends engaged in illegal activities (32.5% with robberies and 24.3% for drug trafficking).173
Fact: Five out of six gun-possessing felons obtained handguns from the secondary market andby theft, and “[the] criminal handgun market is overwhelmingly dominated by informal transactions and theft as mechanisms of supply.”174
Fact: The majority of handguns in the possession of criminals are stolen, and not necessarily by the criminals in question.175 In fact, over 100,000 firearms are stolen in burglaries every year, and most of them likely enter the criminal market (i.e., sold or traded to criminals).176
Fact: In 1968, the U.K. passed laws that reduced the number of licensed firearm owners, and thus reduced firearm availability. U.K. homicide rates have steadily risen since then.177 Ironically, firearm use in crimes has doubled in the decade after the U.K. banned handguns.178
Fact: Most violent crime is caused by a small minority of repeat offenders. One California study found that 3.8% of a group of males born in 1956 were responsible for 55.5% of all serious felonies.179 75-80% of murder arrestees have prior arrests for a violent (including non-fatal) felony or burglary. On average they have about four felony arrests and one felony conviction.
Fact: Half of all murders are committed by people on “conditional release” (i.e., parole or probation).180 81% of all homicide defendants had an arrest record; 67% had a felony arrest record; 70% had a conviction record; and 54% had a felony conviction.181
Fact: Per capita firearm ownership rates have risen steadily since 1959 while crime rates have gone up and down depending on economics, drug trafficking innovations, and “get tough” legislation.182
Thoughts: Criminals are not motivated by guns. They are motivated by opportunity. Attempts to reduce public access to firearms provide criminals more points of opportunity. It is little wonder that high-crime cities also tend to be those with the most restrictive gun control laws – which criminals tend to ignore.​

So many flaws in these reports espicially when the gun violence stats are swapped for "violent stats". Someone spent a lot of time cherry picking stats to fit their agenda. Seriously, comparing 1920 stats to 2003 stats. That's reaching.

And the anti-gun side doesn't do exactly the same thing? Please.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

How are you going to get criminals to obey the law?


I've never gotten a rational, workable answer to this question in all the years I've asked it on this and other boards.

Most gun deaths are suicides and domestic violence murders...

removing the guns would greatly reduce gun deaths.


Japan had 11 gun homocides while we had 9158.

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.1/gun_facts_6_1_screen.pdf

Myth: Access to guns increases the risk of suicide
Fact: The rate of suicide is not affected by the presence of a firearm. This is true in either a time-series analysis (like the chart at right showing the change in handgun supply in the U.S. over time),415 or through cross-national analysis. For example, Japan has no private handgun ownership (aside from an extremely limited number of licensed Olympic sport shooters), and yet had a suicide rate more than twice that of the United States in 2002.416

Myth: individuals who commit suicide are more likely to have had access to guns417
Fact: This is a classic causal effect. If someone decides to commit suicide, and they choose to use a gun, they will first acquire a gun. As noted before, the total rate of suicide does not change when a gun is present because the victim will choose a different method.​

Myth: Japan has strict gun control and a less violent society
Fact: In Japan, the total murder rate is almost 1 per 100,000. In the U.S., there are about 3.2 murders per 100,000 people each year by weapons other than firearms.38 This means that even if firearms in the U.S. could be eliminated, the U.S. would still have three times the murder rate of the Japanese. Whereas Japan’s murder rate may be low, its suicide rate is over 20 per 100,000 people. Combined, Japanese are being murdered and committing suicide at a rate of about 21 per 100,000. In the U.S., our combined murder and suicide rate is also about 21.​

I know these facts won't penetrate your willful ignorance, but normal people might read this.

Dave Joes argument about suicides has floundered a bit since Japan has a high number of suicides

 

[daveman]

The Gun Facts site willl talk about correlations between Gun ownership vs. homicide rates. Homicide rates include all homicide, not just the gun related ones. It then tries to prove it's assertions with violent crime rates which again are not just gun related violent crimes. To mess things up it keeps changing the years of the studies. You cannot compare for instance the year 1958 to 30 years later. Guns are more powerful so even if gun enforcement is tighter than it was say 30 years ealier, today's guns pack more of a punch. Too many flaws in these reports and I don't have the time to evaluate them all.

Today's guns pack more of a punch?

Got link, or just hot air?

 

[daveman]

How are you going to get criminals to obey the law?


I've never gotten a rational, workable answer to this question in all the years I've asked it on this and other boards.

Well, I have an answer! If we spent more money on education and recreation programs for our children there probably wouldn't be as many criminals. The money we spend on such things as wars could be better used for infrastructure! Funds spent on our global presence and tax breaks for the rich would be better spent on the health and welfare of the general populace.. In other words, we need to invest in our own people. No family should be left behind.

Let's all sing Kum Bah Yah.

 

[daveman]

How are you going to get criminals to obey the law?


I've never gotten a rational, workable answer to this question in all the years I've asked it on this and other boards.

The people who are already criminals won't obey the law. The majority of Americans who refuse to hand over their guns will become criminals. They weren't criminals to begin with...

Do you think that will do any good, criminalizing people who obey the law?

 

[daveman]

You cannot assume that if it wasn't restricted by a ban, that someone would have prevented the tragedy. You are trying to predict the future here!

Who's predicting the future?
Gun bans do not work and they never will.
It doesn't stop mass shootings.

It stopped mass shootings in my country.

But crime has gone up.

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.1/gun_facts_6_1_screen.pdf

Myth: Gun control in Australia is curbing crime
Fact: Crime has been rising since enacting a sweeping ban on private gun ownership. In the first two years after Australian gun-owners were forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms, government statistics showed a dramatic increase in criminal activity.31 In 2001-2002, homicides were up another 20%.32
From the inception of firearm confiscation to March 27, 2000, the numbers are:
• Firearm-related murders were up 19%
• Armed robberies were up 69%
• Home invasions were up 21%
The sad part is that in the 15 years before the national gun confiscation:
• Firearm-related homicides dropped nearly 66%
• Firearm-related deaths fell 50%
Fact: Gun crimes have been rising throughout Australia since guns were banned. In Sydney alone, robbery rates with guns rose 160% in 2001, more in the previous year.33
Fact: A ten year Australian study has concluded that firearm confiscation had no effect on crime rates.34 A separate report also concluded that Australia’s 1996 gun control laws “found [no] evidence for an impact of the laws on the pre-existing decline in firearm homicides”35 and yet another report from Australia for a similar time period indicates the same lack of decline in firearm homicides 36
Fact: Despite having much stricter gun control than New Zealand (including a near ban on handguns) firearm homicides in both countries track one another over 25 years, indicating that gun control is not a control variable.37​

 

[daveman]

Japan has a high number of suicides 31,690 people killed themselves last year. What did they use?

Japan Suicide Rate Still Among The World's Highest Due To Low Job Prospects

Oh, so now you like suicide numbers? Because I thought you didn't want suicides to count in the Kellerman Study, but you want them to count in Japan.

The Japanese have been committing sucide before guns were invented. They have words to describe suicide, such as Seppuku, Hari-Kari and Kamakaze... Their culture considers it admirable compared to ours that considers it a mortal sin.

You're the one that pushes without guns there would be fewer suicides in American.
Now how about those suicides in Japan?>

Joe "thinks" that people who commit suicide with a gun are MORE dead than people who commit suicide by any other means.

 

[daveman]

How do you propose to get criminals to obey the law?

Yell at them, give them a stern talking to and a spanking.

Well, that would be a step up from the left's usual response to crime: Blame everyone but the criminal.

 

[daveman]

How do you propose to get criminals to obey the law?

What are you, Stupid? There'd be a f*ckin; Law!

And how's that worked out so far?

 

[daveman]

There's been a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing in the identical thread in Politics.

Nothing here in CDZ.

Obviously, gun control supporters have no idea how to get criminals to obey the laws they insist are needed.

Why call for useless laws?

 

[RDD_1210]

Who's predicting the future?
Gun bans do not work and they never will.
It doesn't stop mass shootings.

It stopped mass shootings in my country.

But crime has gone up.

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.1/gun_facts_6_1_screen.pdf

Myth: Gun control in Australia is curbing crime
Fact: Crime has been rising since enacting a sweeping ban on private gun ownership. In the first two years after Australian gun-owners were forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms, government statistics showed a dramatic increase in criminal activity.31 In 2001-2002, homicides were up another 20%.32
From the inception of firearm confiscation to March 27, 2000, the numbers are:
• Firearm-related murders were up 19%
• Armed robberies were up 69%
• Home invasions were up 21%
The sad part is that in the 15 years before the national gun confiscation:
• Firearm-related homicides dropped nearly 66%
• Firearm-related deaths fell 50%
Fact: Gun crimes have been rising throughout Australia since guns were banned. In Sydney alone, robbery rates with guns rose 160% in 2001, more in the previous year.33
Fact: A ten year Australian study has concluded that firearm confiscation had no effect on crime rates.34 A separate report also concluded that Australia’s 1996 gun control laws “found [no] evidence for an impact of the laws on the pre-existing decline in firearm homicides”35 and yet another report from Australia for a similar time period indicates the same lack of decline in firearm homicides 36
Fact: Despite having much stricter gun control than New Zealand (including a near ban on handguns) firearm homicides in both countries track one another over 25 years, indicating that gun control is not a control variable.37​

GunFacts.info....... lol

Thanks for the laugh.

Oh and save your reply of "I noticed you didn't dispute anything that was claimed".

I know the routine already, so save your energy.

 

[Bfgrn]

How are you going to get criminals to obey the law?


I've never gotten a rational, workable answer to this question in all the years I've asked it on this and other boards.

Most gun deaths are suicides and domestic violence murders...

removing the guns would greatly reduce gun deaths.


Japan had 11 gun homocides while we had 9158.

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.1/gun_facts_6_1_screen.pdf

Myth: Access to guns increases the risk of suicide
Fact: The rate of suicide is not affected by the presence of a firearm. This is true in either a time-series analysis (like the chart at right showing the change in handgun supply in the U.S. over time),415 or through cross-national analysis. For example, Japan has no private handgun ownership (aside from an extremely limited number of licensed Olympic sport shooters), and yet had a suicide rate more than twice that of the United States in 2002.416

Myth: individuals who commit suicide are more likely to have had access to guns417
Fact: This is a classic causal effect. If someone decides to commit suicide, and they choose to use a gun, they will first acquire a gun. As noted before, the total rate of suicide does not change when a gun is present because the victim will choose a different method.​

Myth: Japan has strict gun control and a less violent society
Fact: In Japan, the total murder rate is almost 1 per 100,000. In the U.S., there are about 3.2 murders per 100,000 people each year by weapons other than firearms.38 This means that even if firearms in the U.S. could be eliminated, the U.S. would still have three times the murder rate of the Japanese. Whereas Japan’s murder rate may be low, its suicide rate is over 20 per 100,000 people. Combined, Japanese are being murdered and committing suicide at a rate of about 21 per 100,000. In the U.S., our combined murder and suicide rate is also about 21.​

I know these facts won't penetrate your willful ignorance, but normal people might read this.

Who the fuck is Guy Smith?

Guy Smith (writer, songwriter, political provocateur) and has been referred to as a libertarian with a foreign policy. Because the 2nd Amendment is the only civil right under perpetual attack, Guy has chosen to make gun owner rights and Gun Facts the focal point of his political activism.

"No civil right has come under such unrelenting attacks as the 2nd Amendment. Everyone who takes liberty seriously — which apparently does not include the ACLU — must actively defend the 2nd Amendment."

Speaking: Guy is a regular speaker on television, radio (Gun Talk, NRANews' Cam & Company) and at meetings of civil liberty groups, including being an invited speaker at the Gun Rights Policy Conference.

 

[RDD_1210]

Here's a question I have never heard a pro-gun nut be able to answer.

If more guns is the solution here, and we have more guns in this nation than any other country, why aren't we the safest country in the world at this point?

 

[Bfgrn]

Here's a question I have never heard a pro-gun nut be able to answer.

If more guns is the solution here, and we have more guns in this nation than any other country, why aren't we the safest country in the world at this point?

Easy, because liberals always jump in the way of bullets.

 

[The Infidel]

How do you propose to get criminals to obey the law?

Yell at them, give them a stern talking to and a spanking.

Timeout perhaps...

 

[The Infidel]

Why call for useless laws?

It makes libtards "feel" better.