Ben Gurion: "We are the aggressors"

[Kondor3]

There is a crude-comical maxim that talks about a will-o-the-wisp, running-about at amazing speeds in ever-diminishing circles, until it finally disappears up its own <bleep>hole...

That is pretty much what we see happening to the Palestinians...

Every year, with every new mile of Barrier, with every new Israeli settlement, with every small-time annexation, the lands still under Palestinian pseudo-control diminish again and again and again. There's really not much left, and the shrinkage continues unabated.

They will soon have little choice but to pack up and leave; bravado and brave words notwithstanding. Like it or not, it's almost over, over there... one end-game coming up.

 

[Coyote]

There is a crude-comical maxim that talks about a will-o-the-wisp, running-about at amazing speeds in ever-diminishing circles, until it finally disappears up its own <bleep>hole...

That is pretty much what we see happening to the Palestinians...

Every year, with every new mile of Barrier, with every new Israeli settlement, with every small-time annexation, the lands still under Palestinian pseudo-control diminish again and again and again. There's really not much left, and the shrinkage continues unabated.

They will soon have little choice but to pack up and leave; bravado and brave words notwithstanding. Like it or not, it's almost over, over there... one end-game coming up.

No. They can't. They have no place to go to - 4 million people vs. 300,000 religious extremists (which is essentially what the "settlers" are and how many are viewed as by the more secular Israeli's).

One scenario is they will have to figure out how to form a viable state within the swiss cheese scenario offered by Israeli occupation and land theft. That's one. The other is that some forms of land trade may be offered on both sides to allow for a contiguous state and fulfill Israeli's security needs. I do believe pressure and maybe financial inducements by the Arab states might force the Palestinians to accept some compromises and they have been applying pressure with their own peace plans.

 

[RoccoR]

Coyote, et al,

Wait a minute while I switch hats.

No. They can't. They have no place to go to - 4 million people vs. 300,000 religious extremists (which is essentially what the "settlers" are and how many are viewed as by the more secular Israeli's).

One scenario is they will have to figure out how to form a viable state within the swiss cheese scenario offered by Israeli occupation and land theft. That's one. The other is that some forms of land trade may be offered on both sides to allow for a contiguous state and fulfill Israeli's security needs. I do believe pressure and maybe financial inducements by the Arab states might force the Palestinians to accept some compromises and they have been applying pressure with their own peace plans.

(COMMENT)

This goes back to the concept and goal. Do you want a Palestinian Diaspora? Or, is it still possible to make a viable state for the Palestinian?

You have to admit, from a rational standpoint, the "Swiss-Cheese" Map looks ridiculous. Really, who in their right mind really expected that to work?

This is where it comes back to "compromise" and "sacrifice." If we decide that we are going to make an effort to save the Palestinian (People & Culture), we cannot sabotage it, right off the bat, with the worst possible ground and least resources.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

There is a crude-comical maxim that talks about a will-o-the-wisp, running-about at amazing speeds in ever-diminishing circles, until it finally disappears up its own <bleep>hole...

That is pretty much what we see happening to the Palestinians...

Every year, with every new mile of Barrier, with every new Israeli settlement, with every small-time annexation, the lands still under Palestinian pseudo-control diminish again and again and again. There's really not much left, and the shrinkage continues unabated.

They will soon have little choice but to pack up and leave; bravado and brave words notwithstanding. Like it or not, it's almost over, over there... one end-game coming up.

No. They can't. They have no place to go to - 4 million people vs. 300,000 religious extremists (which is essentially what the "settlers" are and how many are viewed as by the more secular Israeli's).

One scenario is they will have to figure out how to form a viable state within the swiss cheese scenario offered by Israeli occupation and land theft. That's one. The other is that some forms of land trade may be offered on both sides to allow for a contiguous state and fulfill Israeli's security needs. I do believe pressure and maybe financial inducements by the Arab states might force the Palestinians to accept some compromises and they have been applying pressure with their own peace plans.

BDS is a good peace plan.

 

[Kondor3]

"...No.They can't. They have no place to go to..."

The Jews face the same problem... and they're winning.

In the end, the UN will be asked to 'relieve the situation' by finding new homes for the remaining Palestinians still living within the Swiss Cheese patchwork of land that is about to be cleared-out and annexed... and the Jews of Israel and their scattered brethren worldwide will doubtlessly be asked to help defray the costs of that relocation.

So, Jordan is asked to take-in a half-million, Egypt is asked to take-in a half-million, etc, etc, etc... complete with subsidies to build them homes and additional infrastructure and to compensate for past wrongs and the like... until the vast majority have been shuttled elsewhere.

I could be dead-wrong in this - and a part of me actually hopes that I am - but I see no Brave New Leadership of Goodwill bubbling to the surface on either side of the fence that can facilitate compromise and changes of heart and I seriously doubt that we will see anything other than a complete expulsion of the remaining Palestinians within the next two decades. We need to be prepared to deal with What Is, and not What We Would Like It To Be...

"...One scenario is they will have to figure out how to form a viable state within the swiss cheese scenario offered by Israeli occupation and land theft..."

Your heart seems to be in the right place, Coyote, but I don't think that's the way it's actually going to go down.

 

[Coyote]

"...No.They can't. They have no place to go to..."

The Jews face the same problem... and they're winning.

In the end, the UN will be asked to 'relieve the situation' by finding new homes for the remaining Palestinians still living within the Swiss Cheese patchwork of land that is about to be cleared-out and annexed... and the Jews of Israel and their scattered brethren worldwide will doubtlessly be asked to help defray the costs of that relocation.

So, Jordan is asked to take-in a half-million, Egypt is asked to take-in a half-million, etc, etc, etc... complete with subsidies to build them homes and additional infrastructure and to compensate for past wrongs and the like... until the vast majority have been shuttled elsewhere.

I could be dead-wrong in this - and a part of me actually hopes that I am - but I see no Brave New Leadership of Goodwill bubbling to the surface on either side of the fence that can facilitate compromise and changes of heart and I seriously doubt that we will see anything other than a complete expulsion of the remaining Palestinians within the next two decades. We need to be prepared to deal with What Is, and not What We Would Like It To Be...

"...One scenario is they will have to figure out how to form a viable state within the swiss cheese scenario offered by Israeli occupation and land theft..."

Your heart seems to be in the right place, Coyote, but I don't think that's the way it's actually going to go down.

But here's the thing - they don't have the same problem. They have an established recognized nation that isn't going anywhere and everyone knows it. They have the best military and intelligence apparatus in the region and they have powerful allies. Israel is not going to crumble and disappear. They don't have to have the Palestinian's territories to have a viable thriving state, and the settlements are expensive to maintain both politically and economically. Most are just a handful of people. Is what might be gained worth the price to them in terms of international goodwill, internal politics and economic cost? The other aspect is what is going on in the Middle East in general - Israel has good reason to be worried as do any other stable regimes there, and in turn - good reason to try and build what bridges it can with whichever of their neighbors they can and part of that would mean resolving the Palistinian issue.

 

[Coyote]

Coyote, et al,

Wait a minute while I switch hats.

No. They can't. They have no place to go to - 4 million people vs. 300,000 religious extremists (which is essentially what the "settlers" are and how many are viewed as by the more secular Israeli's).

One scenario is they will have to figure out how to form a viable state within the swiss cheese scenario offered by Israeli occupation and land theft. That's one. The other is that some forms of land trade may be offered on both sides to allow for a contiguous state and fulfill Israeli's security needs. I do believe pressure and maybe financial inducements by the Arab states might force the Palestinians to accept some compromises and they have been applying pressure with their own peace plans.

(COMMENT)

This goes back to the concept and goal. Do you want a Palestinian Diaspora? Or, is it still possible to make a viable state for the Palestinian?

You have to admit, from a rational standpoint, the "Swiss-Cheese" Map looks ridiculous. Really, who in their right mind really expected that to work?

This is where it comes back to "compromise" and "sacrifice." If we decide that we are going to make an effort to save the Palestinian (People & Culture), we cannot sabotage it, right off the bat, with the worst possible ground and least resources.

Most Respectfully,
R

I absolutely agree, but it is floated as one possible scenario. I do not think probable. I think in the end, land swaps will have to occur.

 

[Kondor3]

"...I think in the end, land swaps will have to occur."

Until fairly recently (the past few years) I had been thinking exactly the same thing; get both parties on-side, re-draw the map, shift populations around, and be done with the damned thing.

I just don't know whether that's even remotely realistic any longer. The Israelis have tried swapping land for peace on a number of occasions and that has not worked out very well for them.

And then we come to Jerusalem.

They are not going to give it up. They are not going to share control. They are not going to cede International City status (remembering Danzig, Trieste, etc.). It is their capital. Half the world may not recognize it as such, but they do, and, in the end, that's all that counts.

If you (meaning anyone desirous of pursuing a land-swap) can get the Arabs to let go of Jerusalem, then the idea might still have a shot. Without Jerusalem, the Jews won't budge.

But, let's say that we somehow and miraculously clear the huge hurdle of Jerusalem and now we've got the Israelis ready to listen once more to land-swap ideas.

Without delving into village-by-village or farm-by-farm minutiae, how might that look?

I have my own ideas, from times past, and I'll be happy to share, but I'm interested in hearing from others on the subject before I say something to make the balloon go up...

 

[CMike]

Read Slowly

The arabs do not want peace.

The arabs want to destroy all of Israel.

Therefore, no peace is possible.

 

[José]

Read Slowly

The arabs do not want peace.

The arabs want to destroy all of Israel.

Therefore, no peace is possible.

Peace without justice is the peace of the slave...

Peace without justice is the peace "chosen" by those whose necks are under their master's boot and have no other option but to submit to his will, without a semblance of human dignity.

 

[Lipush]

justice is such a general word... don't you think?

 

[Kondor3]

"...Peace without justice is the peace of the slave..."

Agreed. The Jews had 1900 years to learn the bitter truth of that before they took their fate back into their own hands and reclaimed their ancestral or spiritual homeland.

 

[RoccoR]

Lipush, et al,

Justice is based on a moral code we've adopted.

justice is such a general word... don't you think?

(COMMENT)

What we need is a determination as to the course of action the Palestinians intend to follow. If, every avenue of mediation and negotiation has been fruitless, if nothing laid before the Palestinian is salvageable, if no option is acceptable, then WHAT do the Palestinians intend to do?

If it is such that the only option that the Palestinian considers as viable is form of asymmetric conflict, then may be --- that needs to be made plain. It needs to be a published conclusion so that all beyond the borders understand so there is no more moral argument on the posture it has taken.

But don't be surprised when the consequence is consistent. Once the Palestinians quite the negotiation and mediation process, and have selected asymmetric conflict as the only remaining solution, then it will be time for Israel to counter the threat.

Coming to you by popular demand:
Delenda est Philistia politia!!!​

This is surely not what anyone wants, yet, the alternative is peace. And if the Palestinians have rejected all peace efforts, then what?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hossfly]

Read Slowly

The arabs do not want peace.

The arabs want to destroy all of Israel.

Therefore, no peace is possible.

Peace without justice is the peace of the slave...

Peace without justice is the peace "chosen" by those whose necks are under their master's boot and have no other option but to submit to his will, without a semblance of human dignity.

Sounds like our amigo José is speaking about the way Muslim countries treat others.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Lipush, et al,

Justice is based on a moral code we've adopted.

justice is such a general word... don't you think?

(COMMENT)

What we need is a determination as to the course of action the Palestinians intend to follow. If, every avenue of mediation and negotiation has been fruitless, if nothing laid before the Palestinian is salvageable, if no option is acceptable, then WHAT do the Palestinians intend to do?

If it is such that the only option that the Palestinian considers as viable is form of asymmetric conflict, then may be --- that needs to be made plain. It needs to be a published conclusion so that all beyond the borders understand so there is no more moral argument on the posture it has taken.

But don't be surprised when the consequence is consistent. Once the Palestinians quite the negotiation and mediation process, and have selected asymmetric conflict as the only remaining solution, then it will be time for Israel to counter the threat.

Coming to you by popular demand:
Delenda est Philistia politia!!!​

This is surely not what anyone wants, yet, the alternative is peace. And if the Palestinians have rejected all peace efforts, then what?

Most Respectfully,
R

The only peace plans offered to the Palestinians have been for them to surrender, disarm, and hold their hand out for whatever crumbs are left of their country.

If people really want peace they are going to have to be more serious with their offers.

 

[Coyote]

Read Slowly

The arabs do not want peace.

The arabs want to destroy all of Israel.

Therefore, no peace is possible.

Peace without justice is the peace of the slave...

Peace without justice is the peace "chosen" by those whose necks are under their master's boot and have no other option but to submit to his will, without a semblance of human dignity.

Sounds like our amigo José is speaking about the way Muslim countries treat others.

Actually...it sounds like Jose is responding in like to the CMike's post. You think?

 

[CMike]

I am stating the reality.

The arab have expressed repeatedly that they don't recognize Israel's right to exist.

Therefore, Israel giving away some of the little land that it has for vague promises of peace with people who have clearly stated they seek their destruction would be suicidal.

It ain't going to happen.

 

[Coyote]

I am stating the reality.

The arab have expressed repeatedly that they don't recognize Israel's right to exist.

Therefore, Israel giving away some of the little land that it has for vague promises of peace with people who have clearly stated they seek their destruction would be suicidal.

It ain't going to happen.

There are a lot of "realities".

Isreal doesn't have to give away any of it's own land.

 

[Hossfly]

Peace without justice is the peace of the slave...

Peace without justice is the peace "chosen" by those whose necks are under their master's boot and have no other option but to submit to his will, without a semblance of human dignity.

Sounds like our amigo José is speaking about the way Muslim countries treat others.

Actually...it sounds like Jose is responding in like to the CMike's post. You think?

Oh I don't know about that, Coyote. Maybe you didn't pay attention to José's other posts. Comprendé? I am willing to bet you that José doesn't think about the dignity of the other people in the Middle East who have a boot on their necks. However, you can think whatever you want. To each his own.

 

[Coyote]

Sounds like our amigo José is speaking about the way Muslim countries treat others.

Actually...it sounds like Jose is responding in like to the CMike's post. You think?

Oh I don't know about that, Coyote. Maybe you didn't pay attention to José's other posts. Comprendé? I am willing to bet you that José doesn't think about the dignity of the other people in the Middle East who have a boot on their necks. However, you can think whatever you want. To each his own.

That's irrelevant Hoss. What matters is what is posted in this thread, now.

Comprende?