Ben Stein Stumps Richard Dawkins.

[edthecynic]

A song of the Israelites against Edom and the Babylonians who had persecuted her (Israel). It sings of God's wrath against the enemies of His chosen. It's not a command for Christians under the New Covenant.

Nevertheless, you change the subject of the OP -- that is, an avowed atheist believes in the possibility of God.

Did you ever get around to finding evidence of energy creating a universe? I'm still waiting.

However it is an example from the bible where it is not wrong to kill babies.

actually no....it would be an example of an Israelite king extremely angry at the Babylonians.....that verse isn't the voice of God speaking....its the voice of someone entreating God to exact revenge on his enemies.....

Killing all the males, which would include the male babies, was a command of God. And the heads of the people would include baby people.

Num 31: 7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

Nu 25:4 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.

 

[edthecynic]

By the way Holly, is "energy" your god like it seems to be for everyone else?

All you have done is taken energy and given it a human personality and called it God.

Energy has always existed and everything in the universe comes from it.
Energy exists in three forms, kinetic (the father), potential (the son), and heat (the spirit).

So your God is nothing but personified energy.

nailing energy to a cross....now THAT would be an interesting science experiment!........

So you are admitting there was no physical Jesus. e=mc2, or energy EQUALS mass, times a constant.

 

[edthecynic]

He changed His Covenant agreement. He showed His merciful side and opened the door to salvation to all of mankind (not just Israel) and He paid the price for our sin and paid our penalty which was death.

And what or who is to stop him from changing it yet again?

Isn't it morally bankrupt for a person to allow an innocent to be punished, especially by death, in the guilty person's place?

Can anything be more Satanic than punishing an innocent in place of the guilty, no matter how much the innocent is willing????

recall that the innocent you are referring to is the guy you're blaming for the act.....

I'm not sure if I follow you.

It sounds like a trick of the devil to require a person to agree to have an innocent punished in their place for their evil deeds, which is what Christians say is required for salvation. Punishing the innocent in place of the guilty, no matter how willing, by any moral standard is morally bankrupt.

 

[DriftingSand]

science claims the universe of energy can neither be created nor destroyed and this universe of energy is what went bang at the Big Bang causing time to begin. Time has a beginning not energy.

/raises hand.....if all we needed for the Big Bang was energy and the energy was there before the Big Bang, why didn't the Big Bang happen before the Big Bang?......I put it to you that in fact, something had to change in order for there to be a Big Bang........

Exactly! The Big Bang (spontaneous creation) was caused. Someone got the ball rolling.

 

[MaryL]

Econo... Sorry. The batteries in my keyboard just died. I bet most of ya'all never had that happen. ANYWAY...I got this cheapo internet that disconnects me all the time, too. I bet rich Jewish economist and liberal atheist don't have that problem. No.

 

[edthecynic]

science claims the universe of energy can neither be created nor destroyed and this universe of energy is what went bang at the Big Bang causing time to begin. Time has a beginning not energy.

/raises hand.....if all we needed for the Big Bang was energy and the energy was there before the Big Bang, why didn't the Big Bang happen before the Big Bang?......I put it to you that in fact, something had to change in order for there to be a Big Bang........

Exactly! The Big Bang (spontaneous creation) was caused. Someone got the ball rolling.

Well, there you go again, personifying energy again.

 

[edthecynic]

science claims the universe of energy can neither be created nor destroyed and this universe of energy is what went bang at the Big Bang causing time to begin. Time has a beginning not energy.

/raises hand.....if all we needed for the Big Bang was energy and the energy was there before the Big Bang, why didn't the Big Bang happen before the Big Bang?......I put it to you that in fact, something had to change in order for there to be a Big Bang........

Who said it didn't?

Did you ever hear of the Big Crunch?

 

[MaryL]

Next time religion designs a new microchip or a new type of airplane, or a new way of farming or in anyway improves the human lot, how can we take it seriously?

 

[Unkotare]

Amazing ignorance, but not surprising considering the source. ^

 

[Hollie]

science claims the universe of energy can neither be created nor destroyed and this universe of energy is what went bang at the Big Bang causing time to begin. Time has a beginning not energy.

/raises hand.....if all we needed for the Big Bang was energy and the energy was there before the Big Bang, why didn't the Big Bang happen before the Big Bang?......I put it to you that in fact, something had to change in order for there to be a Big Bang........

Exactly! The Big Bang (spontaneous creation) was caused. Someone got the ball rolling.

You assume "someone" as the human based configuration of your gods and as usual, your argument is nothing more than "... because I say so"

 

[Hollie]

oh look, apple!....there's an orange!.....

before Adam, there were no humans....before Eve, there was one.....one person can be alone......unless there is only one human in heaven, that human will not be alone.....the fact that there is no need for "marriage" in heaven doesn't mean that we will be alone.....

It's a fable. Get over it.

go away, child...I'm having a conversation with someone who's posted something new....I'm bored with your repetitive dribble.....

Having a conversation generally indicates that you would be contributing the dialogue, which of course you aren't.

I find it laughable that one should dismiss Hinduism and its idol-worshipping as false and unsupported while at the same time being wholly unable to provide the slightest evidence that your, (the collective “your&#8221, religion and it's various customs including animal sacrifice, are in any way garnered greater authority.

Fundie Christians' appeals to their invented "Gods" are no more demonstrated than those of the Greek Gods. As your gods are only the latest variation of the gods invented before yours, to the back of the line you go.

 

[Hollie]

science claims the universe of energy can neither be created nor destroyed and this universe of energy is what went bang at the Big Bang causing time to begin. Time has a beginning not energy.

/raises hand.....if all we needed for the Big Bang was energy and the energy was there before the Big Bang, why didn't the Big Bang happen before the Big Bang?......I put it to you that in fact, something had to change in order for there to be a Big Bang........

As so many religious extremists, your notions of the Big Bang derive from the nonsense you scour from creation ministries. You confuse the Big Bang theory with prior non-existence. This is a tactic of religionists as it gives them a window whereby a supernatural “belch”, and their gawds have magically *poofed* all of existence into being.

The Big Bang theory refers to a cataclysmic event in which there was a major disruption in existing matter and energy. We see evidence for this in the background radiation of the universe. What we do not, and as yet cannot see, is the prior state of existence before the Big Bang. This could be a window for one or more gods, just not your gods.

 

[PoliticalChic]

science claims the universe of energy can neither be created nor destroyed and this universe of energy is what went bang at the Big Bang causing time to begin. Time has a beginning not energy.

/raises hand.....if all we needed for the Big Bang was energy and the energy was there before the Big Bang, why didn't the Big Bang happen before the Big Bang?......I put it to you that in fact, something had to change in order for there to be a Big Bang........

As so many religious extremists, your notions of the Big Bang derive from the nonsense you scour from creation ministries. You confuse the Big Bang theory with prior non-existence. This is a tactic of religionists as it gives them a window whereby a supernatural “belch”, and their gawds have magically *poofed* all of existence into being.

The Big Bang theory refers to a cataclysmic event in which there was a major disruption in existing matter and energy. We see evidence for this in the background radiation of the universe. What we do not, and as yet cannot see, is the prior state of existence before the Big Bang. This could be a window for one or more gods, just not your gods.

"Quantum cosmology is a branch of mathematical metaphysics that provides no cause for the emergence of the universe, the ‘how,’ nor reason thereof, the ‘why.’ If the mystification induced by its mathematics were removed from the subject, what remains would appear remarkably similar to the various creation myths in which the origin of the universe is attributed to sexual congress between primordial deities."
David Berlinski

 

[Hollie]

/raises hand.....if all we needed for the Big Bang was energy and the energy was there before the Big Bang, why didn't the Big Bang happen before the Big Bang?......I put it to you that in fact, something had to change in order for there to be a Big Bang........

As so many religious extremists, your notions of the Big Bang derive from the nonsense you scour from creation ministries. You confuse the Big Bang theory with prior non-existence. This is a tactic of religionists as it gives them a window whereby a supernatural “belch”, and their gawds have magically *poofed* all of existence into being.

The Big Bang theory refers to a cataclysmic event in which there was a major disruption in existing matter and energy. We see evidence for this in the background radiation of the universe. What we do not, and as yet cannot see, is the prior state of existence before the Big Bang. This could be a window for one or more gods, just not your gods.

"Quantum cosmology is a branch of mathematical metaphysics that provides no cause for the emergence of the universe, the ‘how,’ nor reason thereof, the ‘why.’ If the mystification induced by its mathematics were removed from the subject, what remains would appear remarkably similar to the various creation myths in which the origin of the universe is attributed to sexual congress between primordial deities."
David Berlinski

Ah yes. The typical contribution from the "quote-mine" princess.


Encyclopedia of American Loons: Search results for Berlinski

Berlinski. What a joke. A carnival barker for the Disco'tute.

 

[DriftingSand]

It's a fable. Get over it.

go away, child...I'm having a conversation with someone who's posted something new....I'm bored with your repetitive dribble.....

Having a conversation generally indicates that you would be contributing the dialogue, which of course you aren't.

I find it laughable that one should dismiss Hinduism and its idol-worshipping as false and unsupported while at the same time being wholly unable to provide the slightest evidence that your, (the collective “your”), religion and it's various customs including animal sacrifice, are in any way garnered greater authority.

Fundie Christians' appeals to their invented "Gods" are no more demonstrated than those of the Greek Gods. As your gods are only the latest variation of the gods invented before yours, to the back of the line you go.

We can really discuss all the gods of the various religions until we can determine if a God exists in the first place. I believe there is one God while you seem to believe that there are many gods.

One of your idols, Dawkins, has determined that there is a possibility that God, indeed, does exist. That's a start.

So now that we're on the same page (the idea that some power greater than ourselves - an intelligent Being exists) we can proceed.

1) The God of the Bible explains the order by which He created the universe and all living things in the order that they were created. He explains the time span by which the creation period took place.

2) The God of the Bible explains how man chose sin over righteousness and why man's sin became a curse upon him. So the God of the Bible reveals the true nature of mankind (generally sinful and self-centered). God also reveals His true nature: pure righteousness; pure justice; pure truth.

3) The Bible explains that God placed measures of morality (law) before man and promised blessings for seeking righteousness or cursings/punishments for choosing, instead, to embrace sin or sinful behaviors/habits.

4) God describes His pleasure towards them who's faith in Him was great. Those men who placed their faith in God and sought righteousness were blessed and God promised blessings upon their posterity (Seth, Enoch, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (name changed to Israel), the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel who became the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel.

5) Throughout this period one nagging thread continued to plagues mankind: his sin nature cut him off from a salvific relationship with God. God offered a temporary remedy by offering the Mosaic Covenant where animals could be sacrificed for the remission or atonement for sin (for the wages of sin is death) but the sacrifices had to be made on a continual basis and they were not perfect, lasting sacrifices.

6) The Israelites were not able to maintain their system of laws and justice and sacrifice. They, instead, turned to the pagan gods and fell from God's protective arms. God answered their "harlotry" by divorcing them (the Mosaic Covenant was a type of marriage Covenant between God and His people) and sending them into captivity. The 10 northern tribes of Israel went into Assyrian captivity and were removed from their lands and planted in other lands. The 2 southern tribes (Judah & Benjamin) were taken into Babylonian captivity. I state these facts because they are historical in nature which adds credence to the Bible's claims.

7) So the Israelites are not dispersed and living in captivity. They're no longer under the protection of God but God remembered His promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. As a God of His Word He took pity upon the lost sheep of the house of Israel and sent His Son for their benefit. He loved them enough that He was willing to sacrifice His Son in their stead so that the curse of sin could be lifted. However, the only way that curse could be perfectly lifted would be to offer a perfect sacrifice. Animals were not perfect sacrifices but a perfect, sinless Man would be.

8) The Bible says that man is born into sin (Psalm 51:5) at the time of conception. So Jesus could not be conceived in the usual manner else He would also be born into sin. Therefore, it was necessary that He be born of a virgin who had never conceived in the usual manner. That's why she was found with child by the Holy Spirit. Just like God spoke the Universe into existence He impregnated Mary by the power of His Word. A God that can create a Universe by the power of His will can transcend natural laws as we know them.

9) God is One God but represents Himself in three offices or "persons." Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is only one perfect Being in existence and that's God. According to the Bible God took on the flesh to personally experience the power of the flesh and to overcome sin. This makes Him a personal God. He's "God with us." To better visualize the three Persons of God I consider a prism. When a white light enters the prism it's singular but the light that proceeds from the prism are the three primary colors.

10) At this point, God offers a message of salvation. Christ sends His disciples into the world spreading the good news of salvation. He first sends His disciples to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Many accept Him while many others reject Him. He then opens the door of salvation to all the nations of the earth.

11) As it turns out, His message is loved by repentant sinners and truth seekers but is generally rejected by the world of sinners and pagans. During the early years of Christianity it's extremely dangerous to be a Christian but the Gospel spreads like wild fire in spite of the world's (Satan's) attempt to quell the message.

12) So God has done His part to save His creation from themselves. He's offered a path by which eternal life in His Kingdom can be realized. He's promised great things to them who will accept Him and worship Him but, by the same token, He's promised dire consequences to them who reject Him and mock Him.

13) The God of the Bible has left us with prophecies which have proven time and again to be true. He knew way in advance that Christ would be rejected by most humans. He warned His followers that they would be persecuted, mocked, and rejected but He told us to endure until the end and to practice patience.

Anyway, the God that Christians believe in is a personal God. There's not a sparrow that falls that He's not aware of. He cares about His creation but He's also a just God. Man is still left with the same choice that he had in the Garden of Eden. Choose Him or choose another path. He's not going to force anyone to choose one way or the other. We're still left with free will.

 

[DriftingSand]

science claims the universe of energy can neither be created nor destroyed and this universe of energy is what went bang at the Big Bang causing time to begin. Time has a beginning not energy.

/raises hand.....if all we needed for the Big Bang was energy and the energy was there before the Big Bang, why didn't the Big Bang happen before the Big Bang?......I put it to you that in fact, something had to change in order for there to be a Big Bang........

As so many religious extremists, your notions of the Big Bang derive from the nonsense you scour from creation ministries. You confuse the Big Bang theory with prior non-existence. This is a tactic of religionists as it gives them a window whereby a supernatural “belch”, and their gawds have magically *poofed* all of existence into being.

The Big Bang theory refers to a cataclysmic event in which there was a major disruption in existing matter and energy. We see evidence for this in the background radiation of the universe. What we do not, and as yet cannot see, is the prior state of existence before the Big Bang. This could be a window for one or more gods, just not your gods.

What you don't seem to be aware of is that you practice a religion of your own. You have faith in something that is not known to be fact. You have faith in the tenets of Darwinism (your god). You have faith in the doctrines of hypothetical, imaginative thinkers (your prophets). You have faith in the gospel of secular-minded, University professors (your preachers).

 

[PostmodernProph]

Killing all the males, which would include the male babies, was a command of God. And the heads of the people would include baby people.

I'm sorry, but that simply isn't true....first, why would God be entreating himself, second....it isn't even a command....

Psalm 137

1 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
when we remembered Zion.
2 There on the poplars
we hung our harps,
3 for there our captors asked us for songs,
our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
they said, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”
4 How can we sing the songs of the Lord
while in a foreign land?
5 If I forget you, Jerusalem,
may my right hand forget its skill.
6 May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth
if I do not remember you,
if I do not consider Jerusalem
my highest joy.
7 Remember, Lord, what the Edomites did
on the day Jerusalem fell.
“Tear it down,” they cried,
“tear it down to its foundations!”
8 Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is the one who repays you
according to what you have done to us.
9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.

 

[PostmodernProph]

All you have done is taken energy and given it a human personality and called it God.

Energy has always existed and everything in the universe comes from it.
Energy exists in three forms, kinetic (the father), potential (the son), and heat (the spirit).

So your God is nothing but personified energy.

nailing energy to a cross....now THAT would be an interesting science experiment!........

So you are admitting there was no physical Jesus. e=mc2, or energy EQUALS mass, times a constant.

odd conclusion, that....rather you might have realized I was criticizing your conclusion that the deity we believe in was energy......

 

[DriftingSand]

/raises hand.....if all we needed for the Big Bang was energy and the energy was there before the Big Bang, why didn't the Big Bang happen before the Big Bang?......I put it to you that in fact, something had to change in order for there to be a Big Bang........

As so many religious extremists, your notions of the Big Bang derive from the nonsense you scour from creation ministries. You confuse the Big Bang theory with prior non-existence. This is a tactic of religionists as it gives them a window whereby a supernatural “belch”, and their gawds have magically *poofed* all of existence into being.

The Big Bang theory refers to a cataclysmic event in which there was a major disruption in existing matter and energy. We see evidence for this in the background radiation of the universe. What we do not, and as yet cannot see, is the prior state of existence before the Big Bang. This could be a window for one or more gods, just not your gods.

"Quantum cosmology is a branch of mathematical metaphysics that provides no cause for the emergence of the universe, the ‘how,’ nor reason thereof, the ‘why.’ If the mystification induced by its mathematics were removed from the subject, what remains would appear remarkably similar to the various creation myths in which the origin of the universe is attributed to sexual congress between primordial deities."
David Berlinski

Don't expect a reasoned response. The doors to certain minds in this thread are welded shut and wrapped with chains made of hardened steel. The fact of the matter is than no amount of man's experiments have come close to replicating a "big bang." But more importantly, these "scientists" are trying to force something to happen using their intelligence which actually adds credence to the idea that the original creation came about by an intelligent force.

In other words, if these "scientists" really wanted to replicate a "big bang" they would simply harness some energy then sit back and wait for the energy to "do something" on its own. But they know that nothing would happen so they feel a need to harness some energy then "make it" do something. See my point?

 

[PostmodernProph]

And what or who is to stop him from changing it yet again?

Isn't it morally bankrupt for a person to allow an innocent to be punished, especially by death, in the guilty person's place?

Can anything be more Satanic than punishing an innocent in place of the guilty, no matter how much the innocent is willing????

recall that the innocent you are referring to is the guy you're blaming for the act.....

I'm not sure if I follow you.

why not?.....are you unfamiliar with the doctrines of Christianity?.....you were criticizing God for punishing an innocent in the place of the guilty.....this overlooks the fact that the innocent he was punishing was his incarnate self......

would you likewise describe everyone who sacrifices himself to save someone else, for example a fireman who dies trying to rescue a child from a burning building, as morally bankrupt and Satanic?......