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The very conservative Cato Institute has a very well reasoned article, on how/why ISIS came about.
===========================================
<snip>
To their credit, Brands and Feaver do acknowledge, in the conclusion, that “the most fateful choice was also the oldest one: the decision to invade Iraq in 2003, followed by mismanagement of the occupation” (p. 41) but they then temper that note by arguing that “it is not correct to claim that the invasion of Iraq set in motion forces that led ineluctably to the problems that the United States has faced since mid-2014.”
In a strict sense, of course, this is true. Other things could, in theory, have happened to blunt the rise of ISIS. But only a decision not to invade Iraq in 2003 would clearly and unequivocally have averted the rise of ISIS. The reason is simple: the single clearest cause of the rise of ISIS was the invasion of Iraq. As President Obama explained in 2015, “ISIL is a direct outgrowth of Al-Qaeda in Iraq, that came out of our invasion, which is an example of unintended consequences, which is why we should generally aim before we shoot.” David Kilcullen, who worked on counterterrorism at the State Department in 2005-06 and was senior adviser to General David Petraeus at the height of the Iraq surge in 2007-08, put it even more bluntly: “There would be no ISIS if we had not invaded Iraq.”
Was the Rise of ISIS Inevitable?
=========================================
In other words, ISIS would of not of happened, if George W would not have invaded Iraq and mismanaged Iraq following the removal of Saddam.
ISIS, gained strength later through Obama decisions.
I think that sums up reality pretty intelligently and without political bias.
Two presidents and one mistake.
Tell me, besides the Political and Human carnage, what was the main difference in post Iraq vs. Pre Iraq?
There was no highly violent civil war between the Sunni and Shia.
This is noted by the experts and Cato within the linked article.
Then there's a second observation, again from ME experts.
======================================
Since the Iraq War, sectarian conflict between Shiites and Sunnis has emerged as a major fissure in Middle East politics — fueling conflicts in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Yemen; a resurgence of extremism and the scourge of the Islamic State; and an escalation in tensions between Iran and Saudi Arabia which has become the most significant clash between regional rivals in decades. From country to country, across the region, sectarian conflict is the thread that runs through each crisis, tying them into a strategic Gordian knot.
The War for Islam
======================================
What are your credentials, that trump these expert theories and facts?
Answer the question son.
Since we were discussing the the birth of ISIS, that is your answer.
Clearly, as experts point out, ISIS was born from the civil war post Saddam; and enhanced by Obama's actions.
If that doesn't answer your question, maybe you should be more specific.
And, answer my questions, son.
I see, you want to preach, not dialogue. You're dismissed as the child you are
Looks like Trump’s gonna get his war
Netanyahu to address country with 'dramatic news about Iran' Monday night
It isn't Trump's war anymore than Afghanistan and Iraq are Bush's or Syria and Libya Obama's. They are ALWAYS the Banker's wars.
Nah the commander in chief calls the shots, influenced or not. To be fair to Obama and Trump you can't just walk away from conflicts that a ton of money and lives have been invested in.
We are good at the invading part it is after that we suck at! We would be better off to let them off each other and then roll in and take the oil! Or better yet beat oil with tech then we could not care at all!Now Holocaust revisionist Bibi did not call for an invasion of Iran, most likely he just wants to bomb it. Or if the US would bomb it, that would probably be better for Israel.
An invasion of Iran has the potential to be a worst catastrophe than Iraq or Vietnam.
Iraq has 37 million inhabitants (I was surprised that many), Iran 81. Plus the territory is huge with many types of landscapes. I don't think the US military has occupied such a large territory since WWII.We are good at the invading part it is after that we suck at! We would be better off to let them off each other and then roll in and take the oil! Or better yet beat oil with tech then we could not care at all!Now Holocaust revisionist Bibi did not call for an invasion of Iran, most likely he just wants to bomb it. Or if the US would bomb it, that would probably be better for Israel.
An invasion of Iran has the potential to be a worst catastrophe than Iraq or Vietnam.
Ya, seems pretty stupid to try! Especialy considering the history in trying such a thing!Iraq has 37 million inhabitants (I was surprised that many), Iran 81. Plus the territory is huge with many types of landscapes. I don't think the US military has occupied such a large territory since WWII.We are good at the invading part it is after that we suck at! We would be better off to let them off each other and then roll in and take the oil! Or better yet beat oil with tech then we could not care at all!Now Holocaust revisionist Bibi did not call for an invasion of Iran, most likely he just wants to bomb it. Or if the US would bomb it, that would probably be better for Israel.
An invasion of Iran has the potential to be a worst catastrophe than Iraq or Vietnam.
LOLOLISIS was nothing till obama took power... factNow look, everyone ^^^ the idiot switches from “creator” ... to ... “emboldened.”Obama removed troops, That emboldened ISISLook ^^^ Another idiot who thinks Obama was president in 2006.Obama was the creator of ISIS, They saw a weakness...
Does this mean even you recognize what a complete moron you are for asserting Obama created ISIS?
Tell me, besides the Political and Human carnage, what was the main difference in post Iraq vs. Pre Iraq?
There was no highly violent civil war between the Sunni and Shia.
This is noted by the experts and Cato within the linked article.
Then there's a second observation, again from ME experts.
======================================
Since the Iraq War, sectarian conflict between Shiites and Sunnis has emerged as a major fissure in Middle East politics — fueling conflicts in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Yemen; a resurgence of extremism and the scourge of the Islamic State; and an escalation in tensions between Iran and Saudi Arabia which has become the most significant clash between regional rivals in decades. From country to country, across the region, sectarian conflict is the thread that runs through each crisis, tying them into a strategic Gordian knot.
The War for Islam
======================================
What are your credentials, that trump these expert theories and facts?
Answer the question son.
Since we were discussing the the birth of ISIS, that is your answer.
Clearly, as experts point out, ISIS was born from the civil war post Saddam; and enhanced by Obama's actions.
If that doesn't answer your question, maybe you should be more specific.
And, answer my questions, son.
I see, you want to preach, not dialogue. You're dismissed as the child you are
Child? I answered your question and you didn't offer up anything regarding my question to you.
You call another poster basically stupid, even though they backed up what they posted using linked facts and expert opinion.
I do the same thing twice, both times with linked non-partisan facts and expert opinion. And you bash me.
Yet, you offer nothing but your opinion that is not backed up by anything, other than your inflated narcissism.
What a loser.
LOLOLISIS was nothing till obama took power... factNow look, everyone ^^^ the idiot switches from “creator” ... to ... “emboldened.”Obama removed troops, That emboldened ISISLook ^^^ Another idiot who thinks Obama was president in 2006.Obama was the creator of ISIS, They saw a weakness...
Does this mean even you recognize what a complete moron you are for asserting Obama created ISIS?
Thanks for showing the forum just how clueless you are. Saves me the trouble.
Sorry your history is lacking it was the Reagon Administration in response to thye soviet invsasion of afganastan when Osama Bin Laden was trained. He brought down the wall in afganastan. The place broke the Soviets and now we are doing the same thing! When are we going to learn that when dealing with that country you should just topple them and leave ! As we are pulling away we say good luck and don't make us come back!LOLOLISIS was nothing till obama took power... factNow look, everyone ^^^ the idiot switches from “creator” ... to ... “emboldened.”Obama removed troops, That emboldened ISISLook ^^^ Another idiot who thinks Obama was president in 2006.
Does this mean even you recognize what a complete moron you are for asserting Obama created ISIS?
Thanks for showing the forum just how clueless you are. Saves me the trouble.
The Magic Negro and his Bitch Sec of State armed ISIS is Syria, surely you knew that?
Al Qaeda too.
(sigh) Yes, they do.
You have absolutely no idea why the hatred is the way it is, nor do you understand the Shia belief system. You cannot ascribe Western values to a Religion that prides itself on using it's adherents blowing themselves up.
The Shia and Jewish faiths are ancient. The hatred is relatively new and created by the Christians .
Haha, good joke, it might be believable to those with very limited views of the World, you know like the ones who don't know that a lot of Muslim Turkic tribes participated in the Golden Horde led by Genghiz Khan, or that the World's biggest genocide in the World happened when Muslim occupation of India killed 100's of millions, or that the biggest slave trade was by Arab slavers.
Keep in mind, that all these were before just about every single White Colonial atrocities...
How about recent history .
The creation of modern Israel caused a domino effect of hostility in the Mid East. How good of the white man to ship the Jews out of Europe and into the Arab world !
But hey. That’s bygones . Israel is going nowhere and everyone knows that . They are a great scapegoat for Arab/ Persian leaders , and same for Israel leaders .
Don’t ever kid yourself that Bibi has the USA interest in mind. .
I will not allow you to deflect kid. You made a stupid statement, I proved it wrong. Just because you are an idiot lying hack in no way means everyone else is. The issue is Religious and it stretches back centuries. Iran wants to wipe Israel off the map, Israel gets to defend itself.
You are the one who is wrong . Until the creation of Israel , Muslims and Jews got along rather well.
Sorry your history is lacking it was the Reagon Administration in response to thye soviet invsasion of afganastan when Osama Bin Laden was trained. He brought down the wall in afganastan. The place broke the Soviets and now we are doing the same thing! When are we going to learn that when dealing with that country you should just topple them and leave ! As we are pulling away we say good luck and don't make us come back!LOLOLISIS was nothing till obama took power... factNow look, everyone ^^^ the idiot switches from “creator” ... to ... “emboldened.”Obama removed troops, That emboldened ISIS
Does this mean even you recognize what a complete moron you are for asserting Obama created ISIS?
Thanks for showing the forum just how clueless you are. Saves me the trouble.
The Magic Negro and his Bitch Sec of State armed ISIS is Syria, surely you knew that?
Al Qaeda too.
No, I’m against the foreign wars especially Afghanistan.
I’m just saying Saddam Hussein was not a saint, obviously you admired him...
Fuck off. I did not admire him but I am smart enough to understand the role he played in the Middle East.
Everyone with a brain tried to tell the idiots what would happen when Saddam was suddenly removed, and they were 100% correct.
Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com
For someone who thinks so highly of himself you are woefully uniformed.
The very conservative Cato Institute has a very well reasoned article, on how/why ISIS came about.
===========================================
<snip>
To their credit, Brands and Feaver do acknowledge, in the conclusion, that “the most fateful choice was also the oldest one: the decision to invade Iraq in 2003, followed by mismanagement of the occupation” (p. 41) but they then temper that note by arguing that “it is not correct to claim that the invasion of Iraq set in motion forces that led ineluctably to the problems that the United States has faced since mid-2014.”
In a strict sense, of course, this is true. Other things could, in theory, have happened to blunt the rise of ISIS. But only a decision not to invade Iraq in 2003 would clearly and unequivocally have averted the rise of ISIS. The reason is simple: the single clearest cause of the rise of ISIS was the invasion of Iraq. As President Obama explained in 2015, “ISIL is a direct outgrowth of Al-Qaeda in Iraq, that came out of our invasion, which is an example of unintended consequences, which is why we should generally aim before we shoot.” David Kilcullen, who worked on counterterrorism at the State Department in 2005-06 and was senior adviser to General David Petraeus at the height of the Iraq surge in 2007-08, put it even more bluntly: “There would be no ISIS if we had not invaded Iraq.”
Was the Rise of ISIS Inevitable?
=========================================
In other words, ISIS would of not of happened, if George W would not have invaded Iraq and mismanaged Iraq following the removal of Saddam.
ISIS, gained strength later through Obama decisions.
I think that sums up reality pretty intelligently and without political bias.
Two presidents and one mistake.
Tell me, besides the Political and Human carnage, what was the main difference in post Iraq vs. Pre Iraq?
There was no highly violent civil war between the Sunni and Shia.
This is noted by the experts and Cato within the linked article.
Then there's a second observation, again from ME experts.
======================================
Since the Iraq War, sectarian conflict between Shiites and Sunnis has emerged as a major fissure in Middle East politics — fueling conflicts in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Yemen; a resurgence of extremism and the scourge of the Islamic State; and an escalation in tensions between Iran and Saudi Arabia which has become the most significant clash between regional rivals in decades. From country to country, across the region, sectarian conflict is the thread that runs through each crisis, tying them into a strategic Gordian knot.
The War for Islam
======================================
What are your credentials, that trump these expert theories and facts?
If you are blaming al qaeda on some body that is when we armed and trained them. Osama was trained by the reagon administration he later became the head of al qaeda! You are clueless. Osama started preaching against the US after desert storm. No better luck next time! Al qaeda existed before Barack had any real power!Sorry your history is lacking it was the Reagon Administration in response to thye soviet invsasion of afganastan when Osama Bin Laden was trained. He brought down the wall in afganastan. The place broke the Soviets and now we are doing the same thing! When are we going to learn that when dealing with that country you should just topple them and leave ! As we are pulling away we say good luck and don't make us come back!LOLOLISIS was nothing till obama took power... factNow look, everyone ^^^ the idiot switches from “creator” ... to ... “emboldened.”
Does this mean even you recognize what a complete moron you are for asserting Obama created ISIS?
Thanks for showing the forum just how clueless you are. Saves me the trouble.
The Magic Negro and his Bitch Sec of State armed ISIS is Syria, surely you knew that?
Al Qaeda too.
Wow, clueless much? We aren't talking about 80's kid. I also posted the DIA REport that details what I said. Better luck next time.
If you are blaming al qaeda on some body that is when we armed and trained them. Osama was trained by the reagon administration he later became the head of al qaeda! You are clueless. Osama started preaching against the US after desert storm. No better luck next time! Al qaeda existed before Barack had any real power!Sorry your history is lacking it was the Reagon Administration in response to thye soviet invsasion of afganastan when Osama Bin Laden was trained. He brought down the wall in afganastan. The place broke the Soviets and now we are doing the same thing! When are we going to learn that when dealing with that country you should just topple them and leave ! As we are pulling away we say good luck and don't make us come back!LOLOLISIS was nothing till obama took power... fact
Thanks for showing the forum just how clueless you are. Saves me the trouble.
The Magic Negro and his Bitch Sec of State armed ISIS is Syria, surely you knew that?
Al Qaeda too.
Wow, clueless much? We aren't talking about 80's kid. I also posted the DIA REport that details what I said. Better luck next time.
Wrong! The '67 war started when Israel rolled tanks into Egypt. You cannot hold onto land seized in a war. And if you think you can, that is the same as saying it was okay for Germany to annex Poland.No, its israel' property. They were attacked by egypt, iraq, syria, and jordan. Israel thoroughly defeated all of these armies and took the spoils.
Why? They haven't done anything wrong. Dumbass!Go fight with the Iranians punk. Did Syria atta
Why? They haven't done anything wrong. Dumbass!Go fight with the Iranians punk. Did Syria atta
That may be true.Clearly, Israel does have the Golan and Syria has repeatedly refused to make peace with Israel in order to get it back, thus effectively abandoning its claim to the Golan. At this point, with Syria being a failed state, it is in everyone's best interests that the Golan is now part of Israel.
Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries - WikipediaThe Shia and Jewish faiths are ancient. The hatred is relatively new and created by the Christians .
Haha, good joke, it might be believable to those with very limited views of the World, you know like the ones who don't know that a lot of Muslim Turkic tribes participated in the Golden Horde led by Genghiz Khan, or that the World's biggest genocide in the World happened when Muslim occupation of India killed 100's of millions, or that the biggest slave trade was by Arab slavers.
Keep in mind, that all these were before just about every single White Colonial atrocities...
How about recent history .
The creation of modern Israel caused a domino effect of hostility in the Mid East. How good of the white man to ship the Jews out of Europe and into the Arab world !
But hey. That’s bygones . Israel is going nowhere and everyone knows that . They are a great scapegoat for Arab/ Persian leaders , and same for Israel leaders .
Don’t ever kid yourself that Bibi has the USA interest in mind. .
I will not allow you to deflect kid. You made a stupid statement, I proved it wrong. Just because you are an idiot lying hack in no way means everyone else is. The issue is Religious and it stretches back centuries. Iran wants to wipe Israel off the map, Israel gets to defend itself.
You are the one who is wrong . Until the creation of Israel , Muslims and Jews got along rather well.
Source it kid. You can't. You have ZERO knowledge of the issue.
