Bleeding Heart Libertarianism

[National Socialist]

Bleeding-heart libertarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know a lot of people have a problem with the way the poor would be treated in a libertarian society...would you be more interested in a libertarian society if it was like this? I have caught flack for my hate of rich snobs making millions while their employees need government help to get by and it got me searching...I am an anarchist without a doubt but this seems to fit me better than Anarcho Capitalist does...who else agrees with this ideology?
I grew up poor and I am poor now myself....I have learned to do what I can with what I have to the best of my ability but sometimes its just not enough...Me and my wife literally if things stay the same this year she will end up with a gross pay of around 10k me with about 8,400$ and we barely scrape by...I can see why most people don't think libertarianism would work because of its disdain for the poor...you can't just shut people off from getting help...

 

[eflatminor]

I know a lot of people have a problem with the way the poor would be treated in a libertarian society...

Not other libertarians. When government gets out of the way, the poor find work. The best way to help the poor is to give them a job, which only a free market can do with any semblance of efficiency and fairness.

We had no social welfare programs for more than the first half of our country's existence. During that time, more poor became middle class and more middle class became rich than at any point in the history of mankind. Central planners thought they could do better. They were wrong.

would you be more interested in a libertarian society if it was like this?

No.

I have caught flack for my hate of rich snobs making millions while their employees need government help to get by

You caught flack because you blame the wrong group. Employees that need government help are in that position because of the very government they rely upon. For example, the Fed causing unending inflation is the most regressive tax of all. Constantly rising prices due to the Fed's central price controls has far more to do with employees unable to make ends meet than any rich guy. In addition, heavy regulations, government support of unions, and other costly employment requirements have pushed good paying jobs overseas...a sad requirement to compete in global markets. That's also the fault of government, not the rich man.

Further, please don't make the mistake of assuming that because one person makes money, another must make less. Wealth is not a finite pile of cash from which we all must draw. Similarly, a fat man standing next to a skinny one didn't necessarily take the skinny guy's food!

Lastly, to the extent the 'rich snob' was made so by loopholes and special favors in law, you're better off blaming the government bureaucrats and politicians that meddled outside of their constitutionally limited powers. The businessman is always willing to maximize shareholder wealth if government meddlers are willing to engage in cronyism...that will never change. The Constitution was supposed to limit where cronyism could even be contemplated. Time to return those limitations to the central planners. It worked beautifully until the people allowed themselves to be suckered into allowing selective meddling.

I am an anarchist without a doubt but this seems to fit me better than Anarcho Capitalist does...who else agrees with this ideology?

I do not. Whatever you call it, advocating for welfare programs only makes the problem of poverty worse. Witness the steady decline of Americas poverty rate until the late 1960s. After we began spending big on welfare, the poverty rate stopped falling and leveled off. Today, it's HIGHER than it was before all the spending. That's right, welfare has cause more harm than good.

Further, "social justice" is nothing more than a bullshit term for forced redistribution. Pass.

I grew up poor and I am poor now myself....I have learned to do what I can with what I have to the best of my ability but sometimes its just not enough...

Yet you would be considered rich by world poverty standards.

Further, whatever choices you made in your life that prevent you and your wife from making a better living should not be the burden of others. Stated differently,a lack of proper planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.

That you can't afford what you used to is the fault of the Federal Reserve and government meddling. Direct your ire to the source of the problem.

Me and my wife literally if things stay the same this year she will end up with a gross pay of around 10k me with about 8,400$ and we barely scrape by.

This does not warrant stealing from others, even if government officials do it for you.

..I can see why most people don't think libertarianism would work because of its disdain for the poor.

Libertarians do not disdain the poor. We're happy to help the poor on a VOLUNTARY basis. We're happy to help the poor by providing all the jobs we can justify. We're happy to help the poor by supporting the remove of government programs and policies that keep the poor poor.

..you can't just shut people off from getting help...

True, but as our society proved for over 150 years, people get help more efficiently and with far better outcomes through VOLUNTARY actions. Government forcing some to labor on the behalf of others is akin to economic slavery...and that is never justified, particularly when "getting help" means the problems for the poor get worse over time, not better.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Bleeding-heart libertarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know a lot of people have a problem with the way the poor would be treated in a libertarian society...would you be more interested in a libertarian society if it was like this? I have caught flack for my hate of rich snobs making millions while their employees need government help to get by and it got me searching...I am an anarchist without a doubt but this seems to fit me better than Anarcho Capitalist does...who else agrees with this ideology?
I grew up poor and I am poor now myself....I have learned to do what I can with what I have to the best of my ability but sometimes its just not enough...Me and my wife literally if things stay the same this year she will end up with a gross pay of around 10k me with about 8,400$ and we barely scrape by...I can see why most people don't think libertarianism would work because of its disdain for the poor...you can't just shut people off from getting help...

What disdain for the poor? You mean the perceived disdain for the poor because libertarians do not believe that government taking from somebody else to give to the poor is the best way to help the poor?

 

[National Socialist]

What would happen if a libertarian society happened all of a sudden to the poor? You can't get the people who need the help from the government that help right away...people who depend on them for food,medical help and in some instances money.They would suffer,they would starve they would go without medical help or do as I do just collect bills every time I need to go to Dr. Its hard to prove to ANYONE that it would work for the poor because its never been done..I know how the poor feel because I am one. I don't really ever seeing that change..I hate college I went to a tech school and it really didn't do much good...so now I am a stay at home father...its life...

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

What would happen if a libertarian society happened all of a sudden to the poor? You can't get the people who need the help from the government that help right away...people who depend on them for food,medical help and in some instances money.They would suffer,they would starve they would go without medical help or do as I do just collect bills every time I need to go to Dr. Its hard to prove to ANYONE that it would work for the poor because its never been done..I know how the poor feel because I am one. I don't really ever seeing that change..I hate college I went to a tech school and it really didn't do much good...so now I am a stay at home father...its life...

That's a circular argument. "We can't immediately help the poor, so we can't adopt the policies that would ultimately help the poor the most." It's an argument for never-ending dependency on government.

 

[National Socialist]

So you expect people,children to starve and die....wonderful.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Anarcho-Capitalists are spouting the worst progressive talking points now. Great.

 

[Avatar4321]

The poor could be much better off in a libertarian society.

1) No government programs keeping them down
2) Less government regulations keeping them from developing their own businesses and making money
3) More people recognizing their responsibility to take care of the poor and oppressed and doing so instead of outsourcing that responsibility to the government.
4) Sane fiscal policy.

 

[g5000]

I believe in more government than libertarians, but not much more. I also believe in a more vigorous Defense than libertarians.

However, I believe government is currently intervening in ways that are not just counterproductive, but actually criminal. The coddling and protection of Wall Street fraudsters is particularly galling.

Basically, I believe in sensible intervention and regulation of the seven deadly sins of which we are all guilty. The First Amendment is a kind of regulation, for example. We saw just today on this forum people who supported a left wing speaker being forcibly removed from a public hearing for spouting things the Right does not like or want to hear. Some on the Right succumbed to a totalitarian streak which the First Amendment is meant to regulate.

Just so with Wall Street. Greed and pride are two of the most dangerous deadly sins which must be regulated. Anyone who believes a totally free market will regulate greed and pride is a fool who is completely ignorant of the wealth of historical cases which solidly refute such a belief. Left unregulated, greed will run roughshod over us.

The Invisible Hand has the memory of a goldfish. We see evidence of that every day on this forum and out in the real world.


As for the poor, theere will always be poor, and many of those will be poor through no fault of their own. Anyone who does not accept this premise is also seriously deluded. As the President of a non-profit in my free time, I see such people on a regular basis. And yet we have people on this forum who deny there are any poor in America. A simply astonishing claim.

The past has shown us that private institutions do a very bad job of taking care of all the poor. And I have again through personal experience found this to be true. There must be a joint effort on the part of the private sector and the government to care for the poor, and to open channels of opportunity to everyone.

And there there is the fact there are an awful lot of stupid people out there. Lately, it seems like Americans are getting dumber by the minute. And yet there are bigger fools who believe if no one was setting aside Social Security funds, Americans would do it themselves in an economy rigged against them to keep their earnings, and thus their savings, as low as possible. And should they somehow manage to find money to invest, they will invest wisely.

Wall Street, as we speak, is stealing us blind, but a lot of people are too stupid to even notice they are being robbed. And we are supposed to turn over MORE of our own money to them? In an unregulated environment? ARE YOU FUCKING CRAZY!?!

We would quickly return to the days of biennial financial Panics with hundreds of millions in perpetual poverty.

At the same time, I believe freedom is not painless. You should be allowed to fall and scrape your knee so you learn how to walk and to run. If you own a business and fuck it all up, you should be allowed to fail so better business leaders can come and replace you. If you quit your job because you feel you should be in charge even though you have no experience or reliable record, you should be allowed to hear your stomach grumble with real hunger. If you drop out of school and smoke dope all day and hang out on street corners, no one should be picking up your health care tab.


Make of that what you will with whatever label you care to pin on me.

 

[National Socialist]

And what would keep assholes like Wal Mart from treating them like slave labor? Still haven't told me how the poor and disabled are supposed to be taken care of if a libertarian society just appeared....millions would die...

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

Bleeding-heart libertarianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know a lot of people have a problem with the way the poor would be treated in a libertarian society...would you be more interested in a libertarian society if it was like this? I have caught flack for my hate of rich snobs making millions while their employees need government help to get by and it got me searching...I am an anarchist without a doubt but this seems to fit me better than Anarcho Capitalist does...who else agrees with this ideology?
I grew up poor and I am poor now myself....I have learned to do what I can with what I have to the best of my ability but sometimes its just not enough...Me and my wife literally if things stay the same this year she will end up with a gross pay of around 10k me with about 8,400$ and we barely scrape by...I can see why most people don't think libertarianism would work because of its disdain for the poor...you can't just shut people off from getting help...

Should the Republic be governed based on the "end justifies the means" philosophy, or the Constitution of the United States?

The federal government is not an insurance company. It is not empowered to make people "whole" against real or perceived societal loss.

The role of the federal government, per the Constitution, is to provide the respective states a Republican form of government, and to protect said states against invasion.

 

[eflatminor]

What would happen if a libertarian society happened all of a sudden to the poor?

Jobs. Economic growth. Freedom.

Voluntary charity for the truly needy would thrive, as it did in the past.

You can't get the people who need the help from the government that help right away...people who depend on them for food,medical help and in some instances money.They would suffer,they would starve they would go without medical help or do as I do just collect bills every time I need to go to Dr.

That's like saying the alcoholic must be given more booze cuz it will suck for him if he runs out. It's BETTER for him to run out. That's the point.

That said, you want to phase out welfare programs and other government meddling over the next few years? Fine. I'm down with that.

Its hard to prove to ANYONE that it would work for the poor because its never been done...

You're ignoring the better part of America's history. It was done and the poor were better off here than in any other country and than at any point in human history.

I know how the poor feel because I am one. I don't really ever seeing that change..

Look harder.

I hate college I went to a tech school and it really didn't do much good...so now I am a stay at home father...its life...

Your voluntary choice. Don't impose an involuntary burden on others for your choices. It's immoral and ultimately detrimental to you.

 

[g5000]

And what would keep assholes like Wal Mart from treating them like slave labor? Still haven't told me how the poor and disabled are supposed to be taken care of if a libertarian society just appeared....millions would die...

You won't find many PhDs working at Walmart. Just how much do you think a hanger counter should be paid?

A lot of people made the choice to be Walmart employees years before they applied for the job. "What do I need to know algebra for?"

Pay should be commensurate with skill level, not some misguided idea of "justice".

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

And what would keep assholes like Wal Mart from treating them like slave labor? Still haven't told me how the poor and disabled are supposed to be taken care of if a libertarian society just appeared....millions would die...

Nobody is forced to work at Walmart or anywhere else. Not everyone in this Republic can or will be helped. People die. The best we can do per the Constitution, is leave such needs in the hands of the private sector, or the respective state as the people will entertain. And even then, people will die.

If you want to save people, feel free to do so on your own dime and time, as I do. I resent people and political hacks believing that they have a right to my earnings, because I may not use my personal monies in such a manner that agrees with them.

 

[Redfish]

And what would keep assholes like Wal Mart from treating them like slave labor? Still haven't told me how the poor and disabled are supposed to be taken care of if a libertarian society just appeared....millions would die...

that's ridiculous. Is anyone forced to work for Walmart? The people that I see working there all seem to be pretty happy and enjoy their jobs.

the poor and disabled are cared for by charity, family, and friends in a libertarian society. Charities actually put the help where its needed most rather than just throwing it up into the wind like the government.

You need to get past the idea that the government is responsible to take care of you. Its NOT.

 

[Redfish]

And what would keep assholes like Wal Mart from treating them like slave labor? Still haven't told me how the poor and disabled are supposed to be taken care of if a libertarian society just appeared....millions would die...

Nobody is forced to work at Walmart or anywhere else. Not everyone in this Republic can or will be helped. People die. The best we can do per the Constitution, is leave such needs in the hands in the private sector, or the respective state as the people will entertain. And even then, people will die.

If you want to save people, feel free to do so on your own dime and time, as I do. I resent people and political hacks believing that they have a right to my earnings, because I may not use my personal monies in such a manner that agrees with them.

great minds on the same track.

 

[eflatminor]

And what would keep assholes like Wal Mart from treating them like slave labor?

Oh good gawd. Nobody is forced to work at WalMart. If they couldn't pay their employees an adequate wage, a competitor would have long ago put them out of business.

You should really think about what WalMart has done for the poor by providing jobs that while they may not be highly compensated, are a hell of lot better than welfare. Further, by keeping prices low, Walmart has brought a previously unheard of level of luxury to poorer Americans.

Still haven't told me how the poor and disabled are supposed to be taken care of if a libertarian society just appeared....

Nobody is "supposed to be taken care of" on anything but a voluntary basis. You are not born with the right to other people's money.

And further, you have been told how the poor and disabled would get by...through VOLUNTARY charity. It worked in the past, it can work today.

millions would die...

Captain Hyperbole strikes again...

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

And what would keep assholes like Wal Mart from treating them like slave labor? Still haven't told me how the poor and disabled are supposed to be taken care of if a libertarian society just appeared....millions would die...

So your claim is that Wal-Mart is going to force people to work for them for free?

 

[Redfish]

And what would keep assholes like Wal Mart from treating them like slave labor? Still haven't told me how the poor and disabled are supposed to be taken care of if a libertarian society just appeared....millions would die...

So your claim is that Wal-Mart is going to force people to work for them for free?

slave labor, haven't you seen the walmart managers with their whips and shackles?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

And what would keep assholes like Wal Mart from treating them like slave labor? Still haven't told me how the poor and disabled are supposed to be taken care of if a libertarian society just appeared....millions would die...

So your claim is that Wal-Mart is going to force people to work for them for free?

slave labor, haven't you seen the walmart managers with their whips and shackles?

How dare they give jobs to unskilled and disabled people? Don't they know they're being exploited? Better force Wal-Mart to pay them more so that they have zero incentive to hire them in the first place and it becomes that much harder for them to get a job.