Bob Barr At CPAC: 'How Would You Like To Be Waterboarded?'

[CMike]

Another example of what the left wingnut position could have lead too

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6nkLANrVlM]YouTube - Victims of Radiation[/ame]

 

[JakeStarkey]

So the great conservative Bob Barr is somehow a lefty. cmike is

 

[bodecea]

It amazes me that people who go on and on about not trusting our government are willing to swallow anything where the rubber meets the road...particularly when it comes to people they mostly likely hate anyways.


Yellow Cake anyone?


How about a little slice of Tonkin Gulf?

 

[CMike]

Here is a little taste of what would have happened had those 3 arch terrorists not been waterboarded

YouTube - Burned alive: Inside video from deadly party fire claiming over 100

Emotional demagoguery without corrobation is still nothing but emotionalism, cmike.

It's based on reality. That's close to what have happened if the plane crashed into a LA building. That attack would have been a lot worse than the video.

 

[CMike]

Of course it figures, Ollie. The CIA lies to us all the time. You served a long, long time in the Army, and if you ever worked with those folks you know what I am talking about. You were in signals, so I am betting you worked with them or their proxies at one time or another.

The wingnuts "facts" come from their left wing leaders. The facts don't have to be true to them, they just have to score political points.

 

[maineman]

Bangor. Lovely city. Been there a few times. Spent time in Portland also. Many dog shows there.

I believe my survival instincts would kick in but not all people react the same to stress. Some go off the deep end. Some get quiet. Some get combative. I've seen all phases of it in my job.

How would I really react?? My gut tells me it would be in a fighting mode but then one never really knows until your in that situation.

Enjoyed the back and forth though. LOL

Bangor is not the state capital. Augusta is, but it is so small that you could easily miss it.

If your survival instincts would kick in, that would indicate that, instinctively, you felt tha you were in danger of not surviving. and again... if you were strapped down, and totally immobilized, how would you "fight"? You would be at the mercy of your captors and if they were putting you in a position where you felt you were in real danger of not surviving the moment... AND you were immobilized.... don't you think that would scare the shit out of you? Don't you think that is a textbook definition of extreme mental pain?
AND...if it IS, then, by definition, it is against the law of THESE United States.

It's important to get away from the fantasies and hypotheticals to the reality of what actually happened.

Here it is again. I have posted this numerous times.

http://luxmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o10/clients/aclu/olc_05302005_bradbury.pdf

Medical and psychological professionals from the CIA's Office ofMedIcal Services
("OMS") carefully evaluate detaInees before any enhanced technique is authorized in order to
ensure that the detainee "is not likely to suffer any severe physical or menti;1 pain Of suffering as
a result of interrogation." Techniques at 4; see OMSGuidelines on Medical and Psychological
Support to Detainee Rendition, Interrogation and Detention at 9 (Dec. 2004) (HOMS
Guideline.f'). In addition, OMS officials continuously rnonitorthe detainee's c·ondition
throughout any interrogation using enhanced techniques, and the interrogation team will stop the
use ofparticular techniques or the interrogation altogether lithe detainee's medical or
psychological condition indicates that the detainee might suffer signWcant physical or mental
harm. See Techniques at 5-6. OMS has, in fact, prohibited the use ofcertain techniques in the
interrogations of certain detainees: .See id.at 5. Thus, no technique is used in tbtlinterrogation
detainee----no matter how valuable the information the CIA believes the detainee has~if
medic·a! andpsychologica!evall.lations or oIigoing monitoring suggest thafthG detainee is
to suffer serious bann. Careful records are kept bfeach interrogation, which ensures
accountability and allows for ongoing evaluation of the efficacy of each technique and its
potential for any unintended or inappropriate results. See id,

keep posting it and I'll keep laughing at it. If you honestly think that ANYONE not soaked in GOP koolaid actually believes that, if some doctor had said that he thought KSM MIGHT suffer mental harm from waterboarding,Cheney the Dark Lord would have said, "well then, by all means, let's not put him through anything like THAT!" then I would like a kilo of whatever it is that YOU'RE smokin'!

p.s. I'll bet Dr. Mengele had all sorts of records about how nicely he treated those jewish kids, too.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Of course it figures, Ollie. The CIA lies to us all the time. You served a long, long time in the Army, and if you ever worked with those folks you know what I am talking about. You were in signals, so I am betting you worked with them or their proxies at one time or another.

The wingnuts "facts" come from their left wing leaders. The facts don't have to be true to them, they just have to score political points.

You are projecting yourself again and the far reactionary right which is anathema to real conservatives like Barr, Gingrich, Will, and others. You are merely a faux Republican if that cmike.

 

[Claudette]

The difference the other is moral, you are not, Claudette. Your morals are the same as those whom you condemn.

Well thanks for that heads up Jake. I'll be sure to give it all the consideration its due. LOL

Oh BTW, how would you save your family my friend???? Remember. You have 2 hours or they are all dead. Moral Delimea??? Not for me.

That isn't the issue, Claudette. The issue is that you want to hurt somebody, just given any opportunity that you can. You are like the child perverts here that hide their hideousness in a cloak of words. So do you. You are a pervsion of humanity.

I'm sitting here wondering if I should be insulted or not?? However. I will consider the source and laugh you off.

You don't know me Jake. I am acutally a very non-violent person. I just don't like seeing Americans and other murdered by dirtbag terrorist. The same terrorists that you seem hell bent on defending.

I wonder who the fool is here Jake??

 

[mightypeon]

First:

Torture is compartivly easy to evade. Just provide lots of false information. Torture will make you talk no matter what, but veryfying what you are talking is difficult. If I would be a terrorist, I would implicate as many people I could (who I know not to be terrorists) to be terrorists, correctly assuming that the treatment of those suspects by US authorities will create more terrorists soon.

Second: All comparisons regarding "our own gouverment does that to CIA operatives too!" Are bullshit.
A CIA operative does know he is beeing trained, he knows the crap will end, he knows he will be rewarded. A captured Taliban (if he even is one) does not. Humans can survive a lot, provided they know in advance that it will end, and perhaps even when it will end. Uncertainity raises the whole thing to a new level.

Third: In World War 2, there were huge and vast difference in how the Nazis, who most certainly werent humanists, were treating PoWs. US/UK PoWs got of relativly well because the US/UK was treating their own German PoWs relativly well.
On a related sidenote, the private that got captured during the first phase of the Iraq war (were the Iraqis still were a regular army) was also treated relativly well (as in, not waterboarded).

Fourth: The treatment of prisoners also has a huge effect on how willing people are to surrender to you. In the end of World War 2, the Wehrmacht still tried to put up a tenacious fight in the eastern front (nobody wanted to be captured by the Russians), while surrendering en masse to whatever western ally they came accross, had they fought with the same tenacity in the west, American casulties would have been excessivly higher.

 

[maineman]

Well thanks for that heads up Jake. I'll be sure to give it all the consideration its due. LOL

Oh BTW, how would you save your family my friend???? Remember. You have 2 hours or they are all dead. Moral Delimea??? Not for me.

That isn't the issue, Claudette. The issue is that you want to hurt somebody, just given any opportunity that you can. You are like the child perverts here that hide their hideousness in a cloak of words. So do you. You are a pervsion of humanity.

I'm sitting here wondering if I should be insulted or not?? However. I will consider the source and laugh you off.

You don't know me Jake. I am acutally a very non-violent person. I just don't like seeing Americans and other murdered by dirtbag terrorist. The same terrorists that you seem hell bent on defending.

I wonder who the fool is here Jake??

no one is "defending terrorists" I am simply defending American ethical values and I am defending any future American GI's captured on a future battlefield. You continue to wear "patriotic blinders" when it comes to those points.

 

[Claudette]

That isn't the issue, Claudette. The issue is that you want to hurt somebody, just given any opportunity that you can. You are like the child perverts here that hide their hideousness in a cloak of words. So do you. You are a pervsion of humanity.

I'm sitting here wondering if I should be insulted or not?? However. I will consider the source and laugh you off.

You don't know me Jake. I am acutally a very non-violent person. I just don't like seeing Americans and other murdered by dirtbag terrorist. The same terrorists that you seem hell bent on defending.

I wonder who the fool is here Jake??

no one is "defending terrorists" I am simply defending American ethical values and I am defending any future American GI's captured on a future battlefield. You continue to wear "patriotic blinders" when it comes to those points.

I can see your point. I truely can. But what do you do to defend the people who are in America now??

You know as well as I do that these dirtbags can hit us here. Do you remove a method thats been pretty accurate so far because of ethics and what can happen in a future war???

Catch 22.

 

[maineman]

I'm sitting here wondering if I should be insulted or not?? However. I will consider the source and laugh you off.

You don't know me Jake. I am acutally a very non-violent person. I just don't like seeing Americans and other murdered by dirtbag terrorist. The same terrorists that you seem hell bent on defending.

I wonder who the fool is here Jake??

no one is "defending terrorists" I am simply defending American ethical values and I am defending any future American GI's captured on a future battlefield. You continue to wear "patriotic blinders" when it comes to those points.

I can see your point. I truely can. But what do you do to defend the people who are in America now??

You know as well as I do that these dirtbags can hit us here. Do you remove a method thats been pretty accurate so far because of ethics and what can happen in a future war???

Catch 22.

our military defends the people who are in America now.

The rack was a pretty effective method back during the Spanish Inquisition, but, as society has evolved we removed that method as well.

For that matter, nuclear weapons are a pretty effective means of keeping the dirty ragheads from attacking us anymore... we could simply obliterate every muslim country and THAT would solve the problem, wouldn't it? Except that other nations of the world would then feel quite comfortable in sending their nukes in OUR direction. THe same thing goes for waterboarding.
It's barbaric... it was barbaric when it was used during the Spanish Inquisition. It was barbaric when the Japanese used in on us in WWII... it's barbaric today and nothing I think MY country should be involved in.

 

[007]

no one is "defending terrorists" I am simply defending American ethical values and I am defending any future American GI's captured on a future battlefield. You continue to wear "patriotic blinders" when it comes to those points.

I can see your point. I truely can. But what do you do to defend the people who are in America now??

You know as well as I do that these dirtbags can hit us here. Do you remove a method thats been pretty accurate so far because of ethics and what can happen in a future war???

Catch 22.

our military defends the people who are in America now.

The rack was a pretty effective method back during the Spanish Inquisition, but, as society has evolved we removed that method as well.

For that matter, nuclear weapons are a pretty effective means of keeping the dirty ragheads from attacking us anymore... we could simply obliterate every muslim country and THAT would solve the problem, wouldn't it? Except that other nations of the world would then feel quite comfortable in sending their nukes in OUR direction. THe same thing goes for waterboarding.
It's barbaric... it was barbaric when it was used during the Spanish Inquisition. It was barbaric when the Japanese used in on us in WWII... it's barbaric today and nothing I think MY country should be involved in.

So instead of water boarding, since it's SOOOO barbaric, we should just simply SAW OFF THEIR HEADS like they do to our soldiers, then tie them to the back of truck, drag them through the streets so people can throw things at them and beat them, then set them on fire and finally hang them from a bridge. Yeah, maybe that's what we should do since water boarding is SOOOO barbaric.

 

[Claudette]

no one is "defending terrorists" I am simply defending American ethical values and I am defending any future American GI's captured on a future battlefield. You continue to wear "patriotic blinders" when it comes to those points.

I can see your point. I truely can. But what do you do to defend the people who are in America now??

You know as well as I do that these dirtbags can hit us here. Do you remove a method thats been pretty accurate so far because of ethics and what can happen in a future war???

Catch 22.

our military defends the people who are in America now.

The rack was a pretty effective method back during the Spanish Inquisition, but, as society has evolved we removed that method as well.

For that matter, nuclear weapons are a pretty effective means of keeping the dirty ragheads from attacking us anymore... we could simply obliterate every muslim country and THAT would solve the problem, wouldn't it? Except that other nations of the world would then feel quite comfortable in sending their nukes in OUR direction. THe same thing goes for waterboarding.
It's barbaric... it was barbaric when it was used during the Spanish Inquisition. It was barbaric when the Japanese used in on us in WWII... it's barbaric today and nothing I think MY country should be involved in.

Still can't agree with you on the waterboarding.

So as I said from the beginning. You and I will just have to agree to disagree. I'm not going to change your mind. In fact I wouldn't even try because you are entitled to your opinon. I am also entitled to mine.

HOw's your weather up in Maine??

Down in the 30's here in Florida. The folks down here think they are all freezing to death. Could use some Global Warming. LOL

Peace dude.

 

[maineman]

I can see your point. I truely can. But what do you do to defend the people who are in America now??

You know as well as I do that these dirtbags can hit us here. Do you remove a method thats been pretty accurate so far because of ethics and what can happen in a future war???

Catch 22.

our military defends the people who are in America now.

The rack was a pretty effective method back during the Spanish Inquisition, but, as society has evolved we removed that method as well.

For that matter, nuclear weapons are a pretty effective means of keeping the dirty ragheads from attacking us anymore... we could simply obliterate every muslim country and THAT would solve the problem, wouldn't it? Except that other nations of the world would then feel quite comfortable in sending their nukes in OUR direction. THe same thing goes for waterboarding.
It's barbaric... it was barbaric when it was used during the Spanish Inquisition. It was barbaric when the Japanese used in on us in WWII... it's barbaric today and nothing I think MY country should be involved in.

Still can't agree with you on the waterboarding.

So as I said from the beginning. You and I will just have to agree to disagree. I'm not going to change your mind. In fact I wouldn't even try because you are entitled to your opinon. I am also entitled to mine.

Peace dude.

I would suggest that you allow yourself to be waterboarded once and see if you might imagine having that done to you by someone who you had been trying to kill and who had captured you and who you had no assurances would stop before you DID drown.

and... it IS against the law... the UN convention we signed is the surpeme law of our land.... according to OUR constitution.

 

[bodecea]

I'm sitting here wondering if I should be insulted or not?? However. I will consider the source and laugh you off.

You don't know me Jake. I am acutally a very non-violent person. I just don't like seeing Americans and other murdered by dirtbag terrorist. The same terrorists that you seem hell bent on defending.

I wonder who the fool is here Jake??

no one is "defending terrorists" I am simply defending American ethical values and I am defending any future American GI's captured on a future battlefield. You continue to wear "patriotic blinders" when it comes to those points.

I can see your point. I truely can. But what do you do to defend the people who are in America now??

You know as well as I do that these dirtbags can hit us here. Do you remove a method thats been pretty accurate so far because of ethics and what can happen in a future war???

Catch 22.

OK, can you explain to us why NOW we have to suddenly ditch our morals and our Constitutional laws? How could we have possibly survived and kept our country and it's people safe in the past without resorting to torture? without dumping the 8th amendment?

How is that possible?

 

[bodecea]

our military defends the people who are in America now.

The rack was a pretty effective method back during the Spanish Inquisition, but, as society has evolved we removed that method as well.

For that matter, nuclear weapons are a pretty effective means of keeping the dirty ragheads from attacking us anymore... we could simply obliterate every muslim country and THAT would solve the problem, wouldn't it? Except that other nations of the world would then feel quite comfortable in sending their nukes in OUR direction. THe same thing goes for waterboarding.
It's barbaric... it was barbaric when it was used during the Spanish Inquisition. It was barbaric when the Japanese used in on us in WWII... it's barbaric today and nothing I think MY country should be involved in.

Still can't agree with you on the waterboarding.

So as I said from the beginning. You and I will just have to agree to disagree. I'm not going to change your mind. In fact I wouldn't even try because you are entitled to your opinon. I am also entitled to mine.

Peace dude.

I would suggest that you allow yourself to be waterboarded once and see if you might imagine having that done to you by someone who you had been trying to kill and who had captured you and who you had no assurances would stop before you DID drown.

and... it IS against the law... the UN convention we signed is the surpeme law of our land.... according to OUR constitution.

Here is the 8th amendment in its entirety.
"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."


That is IN the Constitution. Period.

 

[007]

Still can't agree with you on the waterboarding.

So as I said from the beginning. You and I will just have to agree to disagree. I'm not going to change your mind. In fact I wouldn't even try because you are entitled to your opinon. I am also entitled to mine.

Peace dude.

I would suggest that you allow yourself to be waterboarded once and see if you might imagine having that done to you by someone who you had been trying to kill and who had captured you and who you had no assurances would stop before you DID drown.

and... it IS against the law... the UN convention we signed is the surpeme law of our land.... according to OUR constitution.

Here is the 8th amendment in its entirety.
"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."


That is IN the Constitution. Period.

So why is it you believe enemy combatants picked up on the battle field in a foreign country are entitled to constitutional rights?

 

[CMike]

I would suggest that you allow yourself to be waterboarded once and see if you might imagine having that done to you by someone who you had been trying to kill and who had captured you and who you had no assurances would stop before you DID drown.

and... it IS against the law... the UN convention we signed is the surpeme law of our land.... according to OUR constitution.

Here is the 8th amendment in its entirety.
"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."


That is IN the Constitution. Period.

So why is it you believe enemy combatants picked up on the battle field in a foreign country are entitled to constitutional rights?

Excellent question.

 

[Claudette]

no one is "defending terrorists" I am simply defending American ethical values and I am defending any future American GI's captured on a future battlefield. You continue to wear "patriotic blinders" when it comes to those points.

I can see your point. I truely can. But what do you do to defend the people who are in America now??

You know as well as I do that these dirtbags can hit us here. Do you remove a method thats been pretty accurate so far because of ethics and what can happen in a future war???

Catch 22.

OK, can you explain to us why NOW we have to suddenly ditch our morals and our Constitutional laws? How could we have possibly survived and kept our country and it's people safe in the past without resorting to torture? without dumping the 8th amendment?

How is that possible?

Don't think the 8th Ammendment applies here.

You might want to take the nature of the enemy into cosideration and answer that question yourself.

I'm not suggesting you ditch anything.

In fact if it makes you happy and you feel safe traveling that moral high road. Feel free.

Since under OL'BO there won't be any more waterboarding lets just hope that info on the next attack on this country is caught in time and you can continue to travel that moral high road. Happy Trails.

Peace.