Bob Barr At CPAC: 'How Would You Like To Be Waterboarded?'

[Claudette]

Here is the 8th amendment in its entirety.
"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."


That is IN the Constitution. Period.

So why is it you believe enemy combatants picked up on the battle field in a foreign country are entitled to constitutional rights?

Excellent question.

It is an excellent question and they are not. They are enemy combatants and our constitution doesn't apply to them. A fact that some can't seem to grasp.

As I said. The 8th Amendment doesn't applie.

 

[Vanquish]

This whole argument boils down to one question:

Do the ends justify the means?

If, like the Republicans on this board usually espouse, saving innocent lives is the most important thing...then rules for treating attackers go out the window.

If, like most Democrats on this board usually espouse, that we have to hold ourselves to a code of ethics, even against those people we're being attacked by, then you have to follow the rules.

You're a utilitarian? Saving 10000 lives is more important than following "some dumb rule"...great for you. Waterboarding doesn't produce viable results, no matter what you tell yourselves.

 

[maineman]

So why is it you believe enemy combatants picked up on the battle field in a foreign country are entitled to constitutional rights?

Excellent question.

It is an excellent question and they are not. They are enemy combatants and our constitution doesn't apply to them. A fact that some can't seem to grasp.

As I said. The 8th Amendment doesn't applie.

treaties we sign, however, DO apply to enemy combatants.

 

[Claudette]

This whole argument boils down to one question:

Do the ends justify the means?

If, like the Republicans on this board usually espouse, saving innocent lives is the most important thing...then rules for treating attackers go out the window.

If, like most Democrats on this board usually espouse, that we have to hold ourselves to a code of ethics, even against those people we're being attacked by, then you have to follow the rules.

You're a utilitarian? Saving 10000 lives is more important than following "some dumb rule"...great for you. Waterboarding doesn't produce viable results, no matter what you tell yourselves.

I believe its been posted on this board many times that they did get very good info from KSM and from the other 2 they actually waterboarded.

Also, I would save the 10,000 lives over the rules any day of the week.

Try again.

 

[SFC Ollie]

If this was so illegal, why has no one been charged?

Answer is simple, it isn't and wasn't illegal.

 

[Vanquish]

I don't have to try again. You've stated your values that the ends justify the means.

Most rational-thinking people realize that's a wickedly terrible morality to espouse.

As you've already been reminded, don't cry to daddy when Americans get treated horribly around the world from now on. You've just confirmed that "the rules are there are no rules."

Dont expect US tourists to be protected.
Do expect US troops to be tortured.

Congrats on letting emotion push you to the bottom of the barrel.

 

[ihopehefails]

Bob Barr At CPAC: 'How Would You Like To Be Waterboarded?'
"There is nothing magical about a military tribunal," Barr said, as boos from the audience began cascading around him. "They don't have, necessarily, better lawyers than in a civilian sector. I think I have a lot more faith in our U.S. attorneys who are non political, than my colleagues on the other side of this debate do. We can try them. We should try them. That is precisely... what our law provides for. And if next time we are faced with a situation we say: 'Oh, you know, we want to have them go to the military. Let them torture them for a while. It's not enhanced interrogation techniques. Waterboarding is torture. How would you like to be waterboarded? Try that!"

Needless to say, Barr was alone with his sentiments. Following him on the dais was Viet Dinh, a professor at Georgetown University Law Center and one of the authors of the USA Patriot Act.

I agree with Bob Barr, water boarding IS torture, no if ands or pleasant sounding phrases about it.

However I disagree with his position regarding military tribunals, as enemy combatants being examined for acts of war it is only right and appropriate that these people be tried as such which means by the military.

It's a bit disappointing to read that CPAC gave such an discourteous listening to Mr. Barr's points of view since I have seen a putting aside of differences between traditional conservatives and libertarians over the past year and more of a willingness to focus on issues we agree on rather on those that we disagree on. The description of "as boos from the audience began cascading around him." is needless to say a bit discouraging.

The problem with libertarians is that they get themselves with being liberal which is different. The problem, as I see it, is that collectivism has infected the whole system and needs to be purged. This will take a while since it took a hundred years to get here it might take a hundred years to undo the damage progressives have done. Never the less we will do it because freedom is worth every effort and the sooner we understand the disease the sooner we can cure it.

 

[Claudette]

I don't have to try again. You've stated your values that the ends justify the means.

Most rational-thinking people realize that's a wickedly terrible morality to espouse.

As you've already been reminded, don't cry to daddy when Americans get treated horribly around the world from now on. You've just confirmed that "the rules are there are no rules."

Dont expect US tourists to be protected.
Do expect US troops to be tortured.

Congrats on letting emotion push you to the bottom of the barrel.

Yep and thanks for the congrats.

I'd still save the 10,000. Sure wonder if anyone you know would be among that 10,000?

I'm sure the families of all those lost to terrorist attacks would agree also.

Yes, sometimes, the end does justify the means.

 

[Vanquish]

Oh I never expected you to change you view based on my post. I'm happy for you to reminded everyone that you dont mind lying and cheating and killing if, in your subjective view, it's ok.

That makes every argument you ever make on these boards worthless. You're willing to break from the implied understanding of forums like this not to misrepresent facts or not to misquote people...because as long as you achieve your goals, it doesnt matter how you do it.

Great work making yourself irrelevant.

Oh and with your comment about the terrorist attacks...how can you know who the evil people are and who the innocent people are when you're gathering information to save those 10,000. You're willing to hurt innocents to save people.

People like you make me and our Founding Fathers sick to our stomach.

 

[JakeStarkey]

No, Claudette, you will save no one. However, any Nazi or Communist would approve of your philosophy, that the end justifies the means.

 

[CMike]

Bangor is not the state capital. Augusta is, but it is so small that you could easily miss it.

If your survival instincts would kick in, that would indicate that, instinctively, you felt tha you were in danger of not surviving. and again... if you were strapped down, and totally immobilized, how would you "fight"? You would be at the mercy of your captors and if they were putting you in a position where you felt you were in real danger of not surviving the moment... AND you were immobilized.... don't you think that would scare the shit out of you? Don't you think that is a textbook definition of extreme mental pain?
AND...if it IS, then, by definition, it is against the law of THESE United States.

It's important to get away from the fantasies and hypotheticals to the reality of what actually happened.

Here it is again. I have posted this numerous times.

http://luxmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o10/clients/aclu/olc_05302005_bradbury.pdf

Medical and psychological professionals from the CIA's Office ofMedIcal Services
("OMS") carefully evaluate detaInees before any enhanced technique is authorized in order to
ensure that the detainee "is not likely to suffer any severe physical or menti;1 pain Of suffering as
a result of interrogation." Techniques at 4; see OMSGuidelines on Medical and Psychological
Support to Detainee Rendition, Interrogation and Detention at 9 (Dec. 2004) (HOMS
Guideline.f'). In addition, OMS officials continuously rnonitorthe detainee's c·ondition
throughout any interrogation using enhanced techniques, and the interrogation team will stop the
use ofparticular techniques or the interrogation altogether lithe detainee's medical or
psychological condition indicates that the detainee might suffer signWcant physical or mental
harm. See Techniques at 5-6. OMS has, in fact, prohibited the use ofcertain techniques in the
interrogations of certain detainees: .See id.at 5. Thus, no technique is used in tbtlinterrogation
detainee----no matter how valuable the information the CIA believes the detainee has~if
medic·a! andpsychologica!evall.lations or oIigoing monitoring suggest thafthG detainee is
to suffer serious bann. Careful records are kept bfeach interrogation, which ensures
accountability and allows for ongoing evaluation of the efficacy of each technique and its
potential for any unintended or inappropriate results. See id,

keep posting it and I'll keep laughing at it. If you honestly think that ANYONE not soaked in GOP koolaid actually believes that, if some doctor had said that he thought KSM MIGHT suffer mental harm from waterboarding,Cheney the Dark Lord would have said, "well then, by all means, let's not put him through anything like THAT!" then I would like a kilo of whatever it is that YOU'RE smokin'!

p.s. I'll bet Dr. Mengele had all sorts of records about how nicely he treated those jewish kids, too.

Your position is utterly retarded. I am posting the documented facts of what happened. And your position is based on nothing but fantasy.

Can you show any proof that what the CIA said occurred didn't occur?

How about one tinsy insy bitty little bit of documenation?

 

[CMike]

It depends what ends and what means.

 

[CMike]

Also they aren't enemy compantants, they are unlawful combatants and have no rights.

 

[bodecea]

It's important to get away from the fantasies and hypotheticals to the reality of what actually happened.

Here it is again. I have posted this numerous times.

http://luxmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o10/clients/aclu/olc_05302005_bradbury.pdf

Medical and psychological professionals from the CIA's Office ofMedIcal Services
("OMS") carefully evaluate detaInees before any enhanced technique is authorized in order to
ensure that the detainee "is not likely to suffer any severe physical or menti;1 pain Of suffering as
a result of interrogation." Techniques at 4; see OMSGuidelines on Medical and Psychological
Support to Detainee Rendition, Interrogation and Detention at 9 (Dec. 2004) (HOMS
Guideline.f'). In addition, OMS officials continuously rnonitorthe detainee's c·ondition
throughout any interrogation using enhanced techniques, and the interrogation team will stop the
use ofparticular techniques or the interrogation altogether lithe detainee's medical or
psychological condition indicates that the detainee might suffer signWcant physical or mental
harm. See Techniques at 5-6. OMS has, in fact, prohibited the use ofcertain techniques in the
interrogations of certain detainees: .See id.at 5. Thus, no technique is used in tbtlinterrogation
detainee----no matter how valuable the information the CIA believes the detainee has~if
medic·a! andpsychologica!evall.lations or oIigoing monitoring suggest thafthG detainee is
to suffer serious bann. Careful records are kept bfeach interrogation, which ensures
accountability and allows for ongoing evaluation of the efficacy of each technique and its
potential for any unintended or inappropriate results. See id,

keep posting it and I'll keep laughing at it. If you honestly think that ANYONE not soaked in GOP koolaid actually believes that, if some doctor had said that he thought KSM MIGHT suffer mental harm from waterboarding,Cheney the Dark Lord would have said, "well then, by all means, let's not put him through anything like THAT!" then I would like a kilo of whatever it is that YOU'RE smokin'!

p.s. I'll bet Dr. Mengele had all sorts of records about how nicely he treated those jewish kids, too.

Your position is utterly retarded. I am posting the documented facts of what happened. And your position is based on nothing but fantasy.

Can you show any proof that what the CIA said occurred didn't occur?

How about one tinsy insy bitty little bit of documenation?

Let us remember that CMike trusts the government explicitly.

 

[Vanquish]

Dude, you can attempt to pretty the torture up...but things dont always go in real life like you describe them on paper.

There are unintended risks and side effects and consequences of using waterboarding that no amount of EMTs on call will ever be able to protect from.

And btw, at it's most basic, it's inflicting pain to get information. You can't deny that.
Your argument is like saying "We're going to cut you with this knife, but we've got a doctor nearby who will make sure you dont totally die." What the fuck???

By the way, you've just proven how sadistic you are in being willing to prolong the pain through the aid of medics.

 

[Claudette]

Oh I never expected you to change you view based on my post. I'm happy for you to reminded everyone that you dont mind lying and cheating and killing if, in your subjective view, it's ok.

That makes every argument you ever make on these boards worthless. You're willing to break from the implied understanding of forums like this not to misrepresent facts or not to misquote people...because as long as you achieve your goals, it doesnt matter how you do it.

Great work making yourself irrelevant.

Oh and with your comment about the terrorist attacks...how can you know who the evil people are and who the innocent people are when you're gathering information to save those 10,000. You're willing to hurt innocents to save people.

People like you make me and our Founding Fathers sick to our stomach.

Glad to see your in the good graces of the Founding Fathers although I think their views might differ from yours once that got a load of terrorists and how they operate.

Your post is kinda all over the place but I think your basically telling me I suck?? Hows that for shortening the deal up a bit?

Well let me tell you that I honestly could care less what you think of me

I repect you and your opinon, though it isn't mine. You on the other hand, respect no ones opinion but your own.

What I gather from your post is that you would let the 10,000 die even if you had a way to save them. Even if some of those 10,000 were your friends and family. Correct???

Well as I said. You travel that moral highground my friend. I'm sure your family and friends will understand. Happy trails.

 

[bodecea]

Oh I never expected you to change you view based on my post. I'm happy for you to reminded everyone that you dont mind lying and cheating and killing if, in your subjective view, it's ok.

That makes every argument you ever make on these boards worthless. You're willing to break from the implied understanding of forums like this not to misrepresent facts or not to misquote people...because as long as you achieve your goals, it doesnt matter how you do it.

Great work making yourself irrelevant.

Oh and with your comment about the terrorist attacks...how can you know who the evil people are and who the innocent people are when you're gathering information to save those 10,000. You're willing to hurt innocents to save people.

People like you make me and our Founding Fathers sick to our stomach.

Glad to see your in the good graces of the Founding Fathers although I think their views might differ from yours once that got a load of terrorists and how they operate.

Your post is kinda all over the place but I think your basically telling me I suck?? Hows that for shortening the deal up a bit?

Well let me tell you that I honestly could care less what you think of me

I repect you and your opinon, though it isn't mine. You on the other hand, respect no ones opinion but your own.

What I gather from your post is that you would let the 10,000 die even if you had a way to save them. Even if some of those 10,000 were your friends and family. Correct???

Well as I said. You travel that moral highground my friend. I'm sure your family and friends will understand. Happy trails.

Your opinion is the kind of "opinion" that the Bill of Rights were written to protect American citizens from the Government becoming. Good thing they got it in writing....to protect us from sadistic thinkers as yourself.

 

[mightypeon]

Well, would it be OK for the British to Waterboard Washington?
I think we could reasonably assume that the British King would have seen him as a terrorist rebell.

Its not really the waterboarding, actually there are a number of nastier things that could happen to you in captivity (such as dieing to hunger or a preventable disease, which, historically is a far more frequent death cause than murder or side effects of torture), it is that you give the gouverment the right to decide that A) People are terrorists, and B) People can be tortured. Since people will C) Say anything under torture, you effectivly give them the right to really abuse whoever they conceivably want.

Another sideffect is the following one: Lets assume someone is innocent. I mean, there seem to be a couple of ways that an innocent person may end up at Gitmo, given that Gitmo released quite a couple.

So, you get tortured. Badly. Are you sure that, once the torturer gets the idea that you may be innocent, he will stop? Perhaps he will not, since his "professional reputation" may be at stake, torture you a bit more to get that "confession".

What do you propose should be the recompensation for a tortured innocent?

 

[Vanquish]

Oh I never expected you to change you view based on my post. I'm happy for you to reminded everyone that you dont mind lying and cheating and killing if, in your subjective view, it's ok.

That makes every argument you ever make on these boards worthless. You're willing to break from the implied understanding of forums like this not to misrepresent facts or not to misquote people...because as long as you achieve your goals, it doesnt matter how you do it.

Great work making yourself irrelevant.

Oh and with your comment about the terrorist attacks...how can you know who the evil people are and who the innocent people are when you're gathering information to save those 10,000. You're willing to hurt innocents to save people.

People like you make me and our Founding Fathers sick to our stomach.

Glad to see your in the good graces of the Founding Fathers although I think their views might differ from yours once that got a load of terrorists and how they operate.

Your post is kinda all over the place but I think your basically telling me I suck?? Hows that for shortening the deal up a bit?

Well let me tell you that I honestly could care less what you think of me

I repect you and your opinon, though it isn't mine. You on the other hand, respect no ones opinion but your own.

What I gather from your post is that you would let the 10,000 die even if you had a way to save them. Even if some of those 10,000 were your friends and family. Correct???

Well as I said. You travel that moral highground my friend. I'm sure your family and friends will understand. Happy trails.

bodecea and mightypeon have handled you quite nicely, but I'll reply.

I dont care that you dont care about my opinion (see how worthless it is to type such drivel?)

As far as the bare assertion with no support that I only respect my own opinion...a) back that up with some sort of proof and b) tell that to the many many forum posters on the other side of my centrism that I've given rep to.

What's really funny is I'm the one that says we should follow the rules, yet you make me out to be someone that doesn't follow the rule of respecting your opponent's right to have their own opinion!

You've proven that you'll authorize torture to "save lives"...but you don't realize that someone you love - innocent of wrong doing - will be the person getting tortured someday. I'm sure your family and friends will understand. Happy trails.

 

[bodecea]

Also they aren't enemy compantants, they are unlawful combatants and have no rights.

I'm sorry, but that is not true. (And who gets to determine if they are "unlawful" combatants without a hearing, Cmike?)