Brexit busted.

[montelatici]

I am doubtful if Brexit was ever real, or was a stunt to grab more capitulations from the Germans...

I assure you that UKIP does exist. And that they carry support for their aims and beliefs.

Their aims... what are their aims? And their beliefs, yeah, they have lots of beliefs, but not much reality.

And what is your 'reality' ?

Your reality is that we remain tied into a power-freaking foreign colossus that is serving its interests, and not ours. A powerhouse that exists to rob individual Nation States of their autonomy and subsume them into a single political entity, which the EU rules. Juncker made the EU's mindset clear, as I've posted. I've also posted evidence that this was the aim as far back as the 1950's.

Your reality would see such power-mongers succeed, for the sake of short-term economic 'gain' (unproven) and longer-term lack of political autonomy.

Mine would be to argue, and push, for our long-term freedom. I think we have a right to it. Don't you ?

My reality is that often you have a choice between two bad situations.

The EU isn't the best of anything, but being out of the EU isn't the best of anything either.

HOWEVER, the arguments for leaving the EU don't measure up with the realities of leaving. There are reasons to leave, and I could make quite a good case, but none of those reasons would be what the Brexit people are harping on about.

What you're saying is there is a "foreign colossus" that is serving its own interests. I'm sorry, but many people don't think the Tories or Labour are representing their own interests.

The power mongers will succeed if the UK leaves. If the UK stays there's a bloc which can act against those people. But, like I've said before, it would require EFFORT rather than just moaning.

Britain is a can't do country, or what?

But the power mongers will succeed if the UK remains, too. Maybe - MAYBE - we can stall their effort for a limited time, but not forever. We only have one vote amongst a couple of dozen others, after all !!

And at the end of it, we'll be at the tender mercy of a foreign colossus which, as I said, serves ITS interests, not ours.

Consider.The EEC began as mere trading bloc. Then the power-freaks moved in, created the EU, bound Member States into treaty obligations to the EU, these conferring power to the European Parliament - a Parliament that didn't exist under the old setup.

How 'successful' has the UK been in stopping any of this ? Answer ... Gordon Brown SIGNED US UP to the Lisbon Treaty !!

We have a chance to undo this wreckage on 23rd June, and reclaim what is ours by right ... the right to GOVERN OURSELVES.

You say that neither the Tories nor Labour are interested in the concerns of the ordinary citizen ? I can agree that this is true of Labour, who actually forbade us from having a Referendum. Though the Conservatives may - some of them - be pushing hard for continued membership, nonetheless, if it weren't for them, we'd have no Referendum ! I call that .... LISTENING ! Considering the ordinary citizen, not ignoring him.

Being out of the EU is very definitely the best of one specific thing. The chance to regain our political autonomy !!

The Treaty of Rome was more than a mere trading pact. The first principle stated:

"DETERMINED to establish the foundations of an ever closer union among the European peoples,"

It was the mistake of giving in to British requests and pleading to join that put the founding principle off track. With the British out (possibly just the English and maybe the Northern Irish until Catholics become the majority) the EU can resume its road to an ever closer union.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I am doubtful if Brexit was ever real, or was a stunt to grab more capitulations from the Germans...

I assure you that UKIP does exist. And that they carry support for their aims and beliefs.

Their aims... what are their aims? And their beliefs, yeah, they have lots of beliefs, but not much reality.

And what is your 'reality' ?

Your reality is that we remain tied into a power-freaking foreign colossus that is serving its interests, and not ours. A powerhouse that exists to rob individual Nation States of their autonomy and subsume them into a single political entity, which the EU rules. Juncker made the EU's mindset clear, as I've posted. I've also posted evidence that this was the aim as far back as the 1950's.

Your reality would see such power-mongers succeed, for the sake of short-term economic 'gain' (unproven) and longer-term lack of political autonomy.

Mine would be to argue, and push, for our long-term freedom. I think we have a right to it. Don't you ?

My reality is that often you have a choice between two bad situations.

The EU isn't the best of anything, but being out of the EU isn't the best of anything either.

HOWEVER, the arguments for leaving the EU don't measure up with the realities of leaving. There are reasons to leave, and I could make quite a good case, but none of those reasons would be what the Brexit people are harping on about.

What you're saying is there is a "foreign colossus" that is serving its own interests. I'm sorry, but many people don't think the Tories or Labour are representing their own interests.

The power mongers will succeed if the UK leaves. If the UK stays there's a bloc which can act against those people. But, like I've said before, it would require EFFORT rather than just moaning.

Britain is a can't do country, or what?

But the power mongers will succeed if the UK remains, too. Maybe - MAYBE - we can stall their effort for a limited time, but not forever. We only have one vote amongst a couple of dozen others, after all !!

And at the end of it, we'll be at the tender mercy of a foreign colossus which, as I said, serves ITS interests, not ours.

Consider.The EEC began as mere trading bloc. Then the power-freaks moved in, created the EU, bound Member States into treaty obligations to the EU, these conferring power to the European Parliament - a Parliament that didn't exist under the old setup.

How 'successful' has the UK been in stopping any of this ? Answer ... Gordon Brown SIGNED US UP to the Lisbon Treaty !!

We have a chance to undo this wreckage on 23rd June, and reclaim what is ours by right ... the right to GOVERN OURSELVES.

You say that neither the Tories nor Labour are interested in the concerns of the ordinary citizen ? I can agree that this is true of Labour, who actually forbade us from having a Referendum. Though the Conservatives may - some of them - be pushing hard for continued membership, nonetheless, if it weren't for them, we'd have no Referendum ! I call that .... LISTENING ! Considering the ordinary citizen, not ignoring him.

Being out of the EU is very definitely the best of one specific thing. The chance to regain our political autonomy !!

The UK "only has one vote amongst a couple of dozen others", yeah, and so do those who want the EU to be a superstate, don't they? But they've managed to actually do something.

The EU has plenty of Euroskeptics, and if the UK could bring them together, they'd find they have a powerful body.

Again, the UK is a can't do country.

So, consider the EU as it used to be, and the Brits say this is the sort of thing they want, and they don't try and make it happen.

Did you see the pound dropped again? It rose 0.4% against the dollar and 0.8% against the Euro with a poll being pro-stay, and it's swung the other way.

Pound Drops as New Brexit Poll Shows ‘Leave’ Camp Taking Lead

"The pound dropped after a new poll showed a jump in support for the campaign to take Britain out of the European Union, spooking some investors who had thought that the result was a foregone conclusion."

"The pound dropped 0.9 percent to $1.4511 as of 5:37 p.m. London time, the biggest drop since May 3. It weakened 0.9 percent to 76.79 pence per euro."

Come June 23rd, and people getting close to their holiday in Spain or Greece, how much more is it going to cost them?

 

[Drummond]

I assure you that UKIP does exist. And that they carry support for their aims and beliefs.

Their aims... what are their aims? And their beliefs, yeah, they have lots of beliefs, but not much reality.

And what is your 'reality' ?

Your reality is that we remain tied into a power-freaking foreign colossus that is serving its interests, and not ours. A powerhouse that exists to rob individual Nation States of their autonomy and subsume them into a single political entity, which the EU rules. Juncker made the EU's mindset clear, as I've posted. I've also posted evidence that this was the aim as far back as the 1950's.

Your reality would see such power-mongers succeed, for the sake of short-term economic 'gain' (unproven) and longer-term lack of political autonomy.

Mine would be to argue, and push, for our long-term freedom. I think we have a right to it. Don't you ?

My reality is that often you have a choice between two bad situations.

The EU isn't the best of anything, but being out of the EU isn't the best of anything either.

HOWEVER, the arguments for leaving the EU don't measure up with the realities of leaving. There are reasons to leave, and I could make quite a good case, but none of those reasons would be what the Brexit people are harping on about.

What you're saying is there is a "foreign colossus" that is serving its own interests. I'm sorry, but many people don't think the Tories or Labour are representing their own interests.

The power mongers will succeed if the UK leaves. If the UK stays there's a bloc which can act against those people. But, like I've said before, it would require EFFORT rather than just moaning.

Britain is a can't do country, or what?

But the power mongers will succeed if the UK remains, too. Maybe - MAYBE - we can stall their effort for a limited time, but not forever. We only have one vote amongst a couple of dozen others, after all !!

And at the end of it, we'll be at the tender mercy of a foreign colossus which, as I said, serves ITS interests, not ours.

Consider.The EEC began as mere trading bloc. Then the power-freaks moved in, created the EU, bound Member States into treaty obligations to the EU, these conferring power to the European Parliament - a Parliament that didn't exist under the old setup.

How 'successful' has the UK been in stopping any of this ? Answer ... Gordon Brown SIGNED US UP to the Lisbon Treaty !!

We have a chance to undo this wreckage on 23rd June, and reclaim what is ours by right ... the right to GOVERN OURSELVES.

You say that neither the Tories nor Labour are interested in the concerns of the ordinary citizen ? I can agree that this is true of Labour, who actually forbade us from having a Referendum. Though the Conservatives may - some of them - be pushing hard for continued membership, nonetheless, if it weren't for them, we'd have no Referendum ! I call that .... LISTENING ! Considering the ordinary citizen, not ignoring him.

Being out of the EU is very definitely the best of one specific thing. The chance to regain our political autonomy !!

The UK "only has one vote amongst a couple of dozen others", yeah, and so do those who want the EU to be a superstate, don't they? But they've managed to actually do something.

The EU has plenty of Euroskeptics, and if the UK could bring them together, they'd find they have a powerful body.

Again, the UK is a can't do country.

So, consider the EU as it used to be, and the Brits say this is the sort of thing they want, and they don't try and make it happen.

Did you see the pound dropped again? It rose 0.4% against the dollar and 0.8% against the Euro with a poll being pro-stay, and it's swung the other way.

Pound Drops as New Brexit Poll Shows ‘Leave’ Camp Taking Lead

"The pound dropped after a new poll showed a jump in support for the campaign to take Britain out of the European Union, spooking some investors who had thought that the result was a foregone conclusion."

"The pound dropped 0.9 percent to $1.4511 as of 5:37 p.m. London time, the biggest drop since May 3. It weakened 0.9 percent to 76.79 pence per euro."

Come June 23rd, and people getting close to their holiday in Spain or Greece, how much more is it going to cost them?

The market likes certainty. With a pro-EU decision, the markets have that certainty. Because .. of the familiarity of the status quo ... simply that.

With a UK forging new trading ties, in a wider market containing a wider scope of trading opportunities, the markets would respond very positively indeed to that ... once there was a proven case for prosperity.

As for the effect of June 23rd on holidaymakers going to Greece and Spain .. it's interesting to note that you've chosen two weak currencies. Consider the small, but highly unstable, economy of Greece. Small or not, some months ago it created crisis conditions within the EU as a whole. Greece got its bailout, yet may well default again in the future. What price continuing economic stability throughout the Eurozone, if that happens ? Spain is in a stronger position, yet not so very much stronger that she, too, may flounder someday.

'A chain is as strong as its weakest link'. Only as strong as Greece ? And .. you want to chain us to the entity that's having to carry such failing economies on its back ???

Better that we shake off such shackles, and man the lifeboats, in case the ship sinks, eh ?

 

[Phoenall]

Airbus will have to transfer wing production, currently in the UK, to an EU state to avoid customs duties when they transport them to Toulon.

WHO SAID SO ?

 

[Phoenall]

Oh dear, I think I know who you are responding to. I put him on ignore long ago. LOL

He acts as a virtual stress ball.

Are you talking about Phoenail?

Yup.
He is a strange one. I dont think he is a bog standard racist. I really believe that he lives in a world of his own.

That would be you tainted, as you are the last of the neo Marxists clinging to the fantasy world

 

[Phoenall]

Oh dear, I think I know who you are responding to. I put him on ignore long ago. LOL

He acts as a virtual stress ball.

Are you talking about Phoenail?

Yup.
He is a strange one. I dont think he is a bog standard racist. I really believe that he lives in a world of his own.

He definitely necessitates an apology for English education system

(Just a joke)

How would you know having wasted yours ? ? ?

 

[Phoenall]

He acts as a virtual stress ball.

Are you talking about Phoenail?

Yup.
He is a strange one. I dont think he is a bog standard racist. I really believe that he lives in a world of his own.

He definitely necessitates an apology for English education system

(Just a joke)

The thing is....................before the internet there were idiots like him in every village in the country. In the corner of the pub,purple faced and mumbling into their half of warm bitter. Everyone gave him a swerve and life went on. Now he has a platform to spread his nonsense. It cant be good for him or society as a whole.

What ... you mean, like peddling Leftieism .. ??

He portrayed himself perfectly, and for his next trick he will claim he has lots of friends. When the reality is that most people tolerate him just, and would rather he did not exist

 

[Phoenall]

I assure you that UKIP does exist. And that they carry support for their aims and beliefs.

Their aims... what are their aims? And their beliefs, yeah, they have lots of beliefs, but not much reality.

And what is your 'reality' ?

Your reality is that we remain tied into a power-freaking foreign colossus that is serving its interests, and not ours. A powerhouse that exists to rob individual Nation States of their autonomy and subsume them into a single political entity, which the EU rules. Juncker made the EU's mindset clear, as I've posted. I've also posted evidence that this was the aim as far back as the 1950's.

Your reality would see such power-mongers succeed, for the sake of short-term economic 'gain' (unproven) and longer-term lack of political autonomy.

Mine would be to argue, and push, for our long-term freedom. I think we have a right to it. Don't you ?

My reality is that often you have a choice between two bad situations.

The EU isn't the best of anything, but being out of the EU isn't the best of anything either.

HOWEVER, the arguments for leaving the EU don't measure up with the realities of leaving. There are reasons to leave, and I could make quite a good case, but none of those reasons would be what the Brexit people are harping on about.

What you're saying is there is a "foreign colossus" that is serving its own interests. I'm sorry, but many people don't think the Tories or Labour are representing their own interests.

The power mongers will succeed if the UK leaves. If the UK stays there's a bloc which can act against those people. But, like I've said before, it would require EFFORT rather than just moaning.

Britain is a can't do country, or what?

But the power mongers will succeed if the UK remains, too. Maybe - MAYBE - we can stall their effort for a limited time, but not forever. We only have one vote amongst a couple of dozen others, after all !!

And at the end of it, we'll be at the tender mercy of a foreign colossus which, as I said, serves ITS interests, not ours.

Consider.The EEC began as mere trading bloc. Then the power-freaks moved in, created the EU, bound Member States into treaty obligations to the EU, these conferring power to the European Parliament - a Parliament that didn't exist under the old setup.

How 'successful' has the UK been in stopping any of this ? Answer ... Gordon Brown SIGNED US UP to the Lisbon Treaty !!

We have a chance to undo this wreckage on 23rd June, and reclaim what is ours by right ... the right to GOVERN OURSELVES.

You say that neither the Tories nor Labour are interested in the concerns of the ordinary citizen ? I can agree that this is true of Labour, who actually forbade us from having a Referendum. Though the Conservatives may - some of them - be pushing hard for continued membership, nonetheless, if it weren't for them, we'd have no Referendum ! I call that .... LISTENING ! Considering the ordinary citizen, not ignoring him.

Being out of the EU is very definitely the best of one specific thing. The chance to regain our political autonomy !!

The UK "only has one vote amongst a couple of dozen others", yeah, and so do those who want the EU to be a superstate, don't they? But they've managed to actually do something.

The EU has plenty of Euroskeptics, and if the UK could bring them together, they'd find they have a powerful body.

Again, the UK is a can't do country.

So, consider the EU as it used to be, and the Brits say this is the sort of thing they want, and they don't try and make it happen.

Did you see the pound dropped again? It rose 0.4% against the dollar and 0.8% against the Euro with a poll being pro-stay, and it's swung the other way.

Pound Drops as New Brexit Poll Shows ‘Leave’ Camp Taking Lead

"The pound dropped after a new poll showed a jump in support for the campaign to take Britain out of the European Union, spooking some investors who had thought that the result was a foregone conclusion."

"The pound dropped 0.9 percent to $1.4511 as of 5:37 p.m. London time, the biggest drop since May 3. It weakened 0.9 percent to 76.79 pence per euro."

Come June 23rd, and people getting close to their holiday in Spain or Greece, how much more is it going to cost them?

The European nations have banded together to create a voting bloc that can make or break other nations, they all have the same interests and aims. Being socialists they tend to freeze out the right wing nations, and don't inform them of impending changes of policy. So the nations in the loop or club can bring about changes in their laws before the laws are passed and have them not apply to their nations. Look at the recent history of laws altered in France and Germany that make the E.U. changes not workable there.

 

[Phoenall]

I assure you that UKIP does exist. And that they carry support for their aims and beliefs.

Their aims... what are their aims? And their beliefs, yeah, they have lots of beliefs, but not much reality.

And what is your 'reality' ?

Your reality is that we remain tied into a power-freaking foreign colossus that is serving its interests, and not ours. A powerhouse that exists to rob individual Nation States of their autonomy and subsume them into a single political entity, which the EU rules. Juncker made the EU's mindset clear, as I've posted. I've also posted evidence that this was the aim as far back as the 1950's.

Your reality would see such power-mongers succeed, for the sake of short-term economic 'gain' (unproven) and longer-term lack of political autonomy.

Mine would be to argue, and push, for our long-term freedom. I think we have a right to it. Don't you ?

My reality is that often you have a choice between two bad situations.

The EU isn't the best of anything, but being out of the EU isn't the best of anything either.

HOWEVER, the arguments for leaving the EU don't measure up with the realities of leaving. There are reasons to leave, and I could make quite a good case, but none of those reasons would be what the Brexit people are harping on about.

What you're saying is there is a "foreign colossus" that is serving its own interests. I'm sorry, but many people don't think the Tories or Labour are representing their own interests.

The power mongers will succeed if the UK leaves. If the UK stays there's a bloc which can act against those people. But, like I've said before, it would require EFFORT rather than just moaning.

Britain is a can't do country, or what?

But the power mongers will succeed if the UK remains, too. Maybe - MAYBE - we can stall their effort for a limited time, but not forever. We only have one vote amongst a couple of dozen others, after all !!

And at the end of it, we'll be at the tender mercy of a foreign colossus which, as I said, serves ITS interests, not ours.

Consider.The EEC began as mere trading bloc. Then the power-freaks moved in, created the EU, bound Member States into treaty obligations to the EU, these conferring power to the European Parliament - a Parliament that didn't exist under the old setup.

How 'successful' has the UK been in stopping any of this ? Answer ... Gordon Brown SIGNED US UP to the Lisbon Treaty !!

We have a chance to undo this wreckage on 23rd June, and reclaim what is ours by right ... the right to GOVERN OURSELVES.

You say that neither the Tories nor Labour are interested in the concerns of the ordinary citizen ? I can agree that this is true of Labour, who actually forbade us from having a Referendum. Though the Conservatives may - some of them - be pushing hard for continued membership, nonetheless, if it weren't for them, we'd have no Referendum ! I call that .... LISTENING ! Considering the ordinary citizen, not ignoring him.

Being out of the EU is very definitely the best of one specific thing. The chance to regain our political autonomy !!

The Treaty of Rome was more than a mere trading pact. The first principle stated:

"DETERMINED to establish the foundations of an ever closer union among the European peoples,"

It was the mistake of giving in to British requests and pleading to join that put the founding principle off track. With the British out (possibly just the English and maybe the Northern Irish until Catholics become the majority) the EU can resume its road to an ever closer union.

And mass murder another 12 million innocents like you did in the 1930's

 

[Phoenall]

I assure you that UKIP does exist. And that they carry support for their aims and beliefs.

Their aims... what are their aims? And their beliefs, yeah, they have lots of beliefs, but not much reality.

And what is your 'reality' ?

Your reality is that we remain tied into a power-freaking foreign colossus that is serving its interests, and not ours. A powerhouse that exists to rob individual Nation States of their autonomy and subsume them into a single political entity, which the EU rules. Juncker made the EU's mindset clear, as I've posted. I've also posted evidence that this was the aim as far back as the 1950's.

Your reality would see such power-mongers succeed, for the sake of short-term economic 'gain' (unproven) and longer-term lack of political autonomy.

Mine would be to argue, and push, for our long-term freedom. I think we have a right to it. Don't you ?

My reality is that often you have a choice between two bad situations.

The EU isn't the best of anything, but being out of the EU isn't the best of anything either.

HOWEVER, the arguments for leaving the EU don't measure up with the realities of leaving. There are reasons to leave, and I could make quite a good case, but none of those reasons would be what the Brexit people are harping on about.

What you're saying is there is a "foreign colossus" that is serving its own interests. I'm sorry, but many people don't think the Tories or Labour are representing their own interests.

The power mongers will succeed if the UK leaves. If the UK stays there's a bloc which can act against those people. But, like I've said before, it would require EFFORT rather than just moaning.

Britain is a can't do country, or what?

But the power mongers will succeed if the UK remains, too. Maybe - MAYBE - we can stall their effort for a limited time, but not forever. We only have one vote amongst a couple of dozen others, after all !!

And at the end of it, we'll be at the tender mercy of a foreign colossus which, as I said, serves ITS interests, not ours.

Consider.The EEC began as mere trading bloc. Then the power-freaks moved in, created the EU, bound Member States into treaty obligations to the EU, these conferring power to the European Parliament - a Parliament that didn't exist under the old setup.

How 'successful' has the UK been in stopping any of this ? Answer ... Gordon Brown SIGNED US UP to the Lisbon Treaty !!

We have a chance to undo this wreckage on 23rd June, and reclaim what is ours by right ... the right to GOVERN OURSELVES.

You say that neither the Tories nor Labour are interested in the concerns of the ordinary citizen ? I can agree that this is true of Labour, who actually forbade us from having a Referendum. Though the Conservatives may - some of them - be pushing hard for continued membership, nonetheless, if it weren't for them, we'd have no Referendum ! I call that .... LISTENING ! Considering the ordinary citizen, not ignoring him.

Being out of the EU is very definitely the best of one specific thing. The chance to regain our political autonomy !!

The UK "only has one vote amongst a couple of dozen others", yeah, and so do those who want the EU to be a superstate, don't they? But they've managed to actually do something.

The EU has plenty of Euroskeptics, and if the UK could bring them together, they'd find they have a powerful body.

Again, the UK is a can't do country.

So, consider the EU as it used to be, and the Brits say this is the sort of thing they want, and they don't try and make it happen.

Did you see the pound dropped again? It rose 0.4% against the dollar and 0.8% against the Euro with a poll being pro-stay, and it's swung the other way.

Pound Drops as New Brexit Poll Shows ‘Leave’ Camp Taking Lead

"The pound dropped after a new poll showed a jump in support for the campaign to take Britain out of the European Union, spooking some investors who had thought that the result was a foregone conclusion."

"The pound dropped 0.9 percent to $1.4511 as of 5:37 p.m. London time, the biggest drop since May 3. It weakened 0.9 percent to 76.79 pence per euro."

Come June 23rd, and people getting close to their holiday in Spain or Greece, how much more is it going to cost them?

And before the thought of an exit campaign was ever mentioned the Pound fluctuated just as much. PROVING NOTHING

 

[frigidweirdo]

Their aims... what are their aims? And their beliefs, yeah, they have lots of beliefs, but not much reality.

And what is your 'reality' ?

Your reality is that we remain tied into a power-freaking foreign colossus that is serving its interests, and not ours. A powerhouse that exists to rob individual Nation States of their autonomy and subsume them into a single political entity, which the EU rules. Juncker made the EU's mindset clear, as I've posted. I've also posted evidence that this was the aim as far back as the 1950's.

Your reality would see such power-mongers succeed, for the sake of short-term economic 'gain' (unproven) and longer-term lack of political autonomy.

Mine would be to argue, and push, for our long-term freedom. I think we have a right to it. Don't you ?

My reality is that often you have a choice between two bad situations.

The EU isn't the best of anything, but being out of the EU isn't the best of anything either.

HOWEVER, the arguments for leaving the EU don't measure up with the realities of leaving. There are reasons to leave, and I could make quite a good case, but none of those reasons would be what the Brexit people are harping on about.

What you're saying is there is a "foreign colossus" that is serving its own interests. I'm sorry, but many people don't think the Tories or Labour are representing their own interests.

The power mongers will succeed if the UK leaves. If the UK stays there's a bloc which can act against those people. But, like I've said before, it would require EFFORT rather than just moaning.

Britain is a can't do country, or what?

But the power mongers will succeed if the UK remains, too. Maybe - MAYBE - we can stall their effort for a limited time, but not forever. We only have one vote amongst a couple of dozen others, after all !!

And at the end of it, we'll be at the tender mercy of a foreign colossus which, as I said, serves ITS interests, not ours.

Consider.The EEC began as mere trading bloc. Then the power-freaks moved in, created the EU, bound Member States into treaty obligations to the EU, these conferring power to the European Parliament - a Parliament that didn't exist under the old setup.

How 'successful' has the UK been in stopping any of this ? Answer ... Gordon Brown SIGNED US UP to the Lisbon Treaty !!

We have a chance to undo this wreckage on 23rd June, and reclaim what is ours by right ... the right to GOVERN OURSELVES.

You say that neither the Tories nor Labour are interested in the concerns of the ordinary citizen ? I can agree that this is true of Labour, who actually forbade us from having a Referendum. Though the Conservatives may - some of them - be pushing hard for continued membership, nonetheless, if it weren't for them, we'd have no Referendum ! I call that .... LISTENING ! Considering the ordinary citizen, not ignoring him.

Being out of the EU is very definitely the best of one specific thing. The chance to regain our political autonomy !!

The UK "only has one vote amongst a couple of dozen others", yeah, and so do those who want the EU to be a superstate, don't they? But they've managed to actually do something.

The EU has plenty of Euroskeptics, and if the UK could bring them together, they'd find they have a powerful body.

Again, the UK is a can't do country.

So, consider the EU as it used to be, and the Brits say this is the sort of thing they want, and they don't try and make it happen.

Did you see the pound dropped again? It rose 0.4% against the dollar and 0.8% against the Euro with a poll being pro-stay, and it's swung the other way.

Pound Drops as New Brexit Poll Shows ‘Leave’ Camp Taking Lead

"The pound dropped after a new poll showed a jump in support for the campaign to take Britain out of the European Union, spooking some investors who had thought that the result was a foregone conclusion."

"The pound dropped 0.9 percent to $1.4511 as of 5:37 p.m. London time, the biggest drop since May 3. It weakened 0.9 percent to 76.79 pence per euro."

Come June 23rd, and people getting close to their holiday in Spain or Greece, how much more is it going to cost them?

The market likes certainty. With a pro-EU decision, the markets have that certainty. Because .. of the familiarity of the status quo ... simply that.

With a UK forging new trading ties, in a wider market containing a wider scope of trading opportunities, the markets would respond very positively indeed to that ... once there was a proven case for prosperity.

As for the effect of June 23rd on holidaymakers going to Greece and Spain .. it's interesting to note that you've chosen two weak currencies. Consider the small, but highly unstable, economy of Greece. Small or not, some months ago it created crisis conditions within the EU as a whole. Greece got its bailout, yet may well default again in the future. What price continuing economic stability throughout the Eurozone, if that happens ? Spain is in a stronger position, yet not so very much stronger that she, too, may flounder someday.

'A chain is as strong as its weakest link'. Only as strong as Greece ? And .. you want to chain us to the entity that's having to carry such failing economies on its back ???

Better that we shake off such shackles, and man the lifeboats, in case the ship sinks, eh ?

What "new trading ties"????

The EU makes trade agreements that will have far more force than the UK could ever get. What is the UK going to get that will replace what the UK will lose from leaving the EU?

Do you know how much money the UK gets from EU trade agreements with those outside of the EU? Do you know how much money the UK gets from trading within the EU?

I looked at statistics (which I am unfortunately unable to find any more), and it showed that in the first two years of countries like Estonia, and all those who joined the EU in 2004, their trade with the UK increased up to 200%, and that withing 2 years. Why? Why would trade increase massively with the UK in this time? It's clear.

Stats are difficult, there are different interpretations of everything that could happen.

No UK trade benefit from EU membership - Civitas report - BBC News

Civitas says there's no benefit from being in the EU. I disagree with this. This "seems to contradict analysis by the Confederation of British Industry."

So, both sides will say their piece.

http://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default...nts/pdf/2014/pb_britishtrade_16jan14-8285.pdf

"If Britain were to leave the EU, it would face a difficult dilemma: having to negotiate access to the EU’s single market in exchange for continued adherence to its rules – or losing access in return for regulatory sovereignty that would be largely illusory."

Basically, the EU is about 50% of the UK's trade. The UK cannot afford to risk losing 50% of this trade. There's no way in hell the UK can make up this 50% of trade from outside the EU. You don't just go to Zimbabwe and say "hey, we're open and willing to deal, can you substitute for Spain?"

HM Revenue & Customs uktradeinfo - EU & Non-EU_Data

"Non-EU Exports for March 2016 were £12.9 billion. This remained unchanged compared with last month. There was a decrease of £3.6 billion (22 per cent) compared with March 2015."

"EU Exports for March 2016 were £12.0 billion. This was an increase of £0.6 billion (5.7 per cent) compared with last month, and a rise of £0.1 billion (0.6 per cent) compared with March 2015."

So, 12 billion to 12.9 billion for EU to non-EU trade per month. 12 billion pounds is a lot of money.

For example, if the pound lost 1% against the Euro, then that's 120 million pounds gone. That's 120 million a month. Make the pound lose 5% and that 600 million a month. 7.20 billion a year. And that's only in exports.

UK imports from the EU were 20 billion. 1% and the UK is paying an extra 200 million pounds. That's 320 million pounds a month. Make it 5% and that's 1.6 billion pounds a month, added to exports and that's 19.2 billion a year, added to the exports and that's 26.4 billion a year.

Then take into account the amount of trade the UK would actually lose from not being as competitive as those around them.

The EU costs the UK, what? About 6 billion a year. You would be willing to save 6 billion a year and risk losing 19.2 billion a year from a drop which is very close to what we saw yesterday from a poll saying leave was in the lead, or risk losing 26.4 billion a year if it goes to 5%, or you can do the maths based on this for other percentages.

Add in the costs of potentially losing money from not being part of EU trade deals and having to make their own (yes, I know you probably think that UK politicians are the best in the world, but clearly they're not, as the Germans and French are leading the EU) so, the UK going out to make those trade deals, with less power behind them, less chance of such a good deal, and you're losing even more money.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Their aims... what are their aims? And their beliefs, yeah, they have lots of beliefs, but not much reality.

And what is your 'reality' ?

Your reality is that we remain tied into a power-freaking foreign colossus that is serving its interests, and not ours. A powerhouse that exists to rob individual Nation States of their autonomy and subsume them into a single political entity, which the EU rules. Juncker made the EU's mindset clear, as I've posted. I've also posted evidence that this was the aim as far back as the 1950's.

Your reality would see such power-mongers succeed, for the sake of short-term economic 'gain' (unproven) and longer-term lack of political autonomy.

Mine would be to argue, and push, for our long-term freedom. I think we have a right to it. Don't you ?

My reality is that often you have a choice between two bad situations.

The EU isn't the best of anything, but being out of the EU isn't the best of anything either.

HOWEVER, the arguments for leaving the EU don't measure up with the realities of leaving. There are reasons to leave, and I could make quite a good case, but none of those reasons would be what the Brexit people are harping on about.

What you're saying is there is a "foreign colossus" that is serving its own interests. I'm sorry, but many people don't think the Tories or Labour are representing their own interests.

The power mongers will succeed if the UK leaves. If the UK stays there's a bloc which can act against those people. But, like I've said before, it would require EFFORT rather than just moaning.

Britain is a can't do country, or what?

But the power mongers will succeed if the UK remains, too. Maybe - MAYBE - we can stall their effort for a limited time, but not forever. We only have one vote amongst a couple of dozen others, after all !!

And at the end of it, we'll be at the tender mercy of a foreign colossus which, as I said, serves ITS interests, not ours.

Consider.The EEC began as mere trading bloc. Then the power-freaks moved in, created the EU, bound Member States into treaty obligations to the EU, these conferring power to the European Parliament - a Parliament that didn't exist under the old setup.

How 'successful' has the UK been in stopping any of this ? Answer ... Gordon Brown SIGNED US UP to the Lisbon Treaty !!

We have a chance to undo this wreckage on 23rd June, and reclaim what is ours by right ... the right to GOVERN OURSELVES.

You say that neither the Tories nor Labour are interested in the concerns of the ordinary citizen ? I can agree that this is true of Labour, who actually forbade us from having a Referendum. Though the Conservatives may - some of them - be pushing hard for continued membership, nonetheless, if it weren't for them, we'd have no Referendum ! I call that .... LISTENING ! Considering the ordinary citizen, not ignoring him.

Being out of the EU is very definitely the best of one specific thing. The chance to regain our political autonomy !!

The UK "only has one vote amongst a couple of dozen others", yeah, and so do those who want the EU to be a superstate, don't they? But they've managed to actually do something.

The EU has plenty of Euroskeptics, and if the UK could bring them together, they'd find they have a powerful body.

Again, the UK is a can't do country.

So, consider the EU as it used to be, and the Brits say this is the sort of thing they want, and they don't try and make it happen.

Did you see the pound dropped again? It rose 0.4% against the dollar and 0.8% against the Euro with a poll being pro-stay, and it's swung the other way.

Pound Drops as New Brexit Poll Shows ‘Leave’ Camp Taking Lead

"The pound dropped after a new poll showed a jump in support for the campaign to take Britain out of the European Union, spooking some investors who had thought that the result was a foregone conclusion."

"The pound dropped 0.9 percent to $1.4511 as of 5:37 p.m. London time, the biggest drop since May 3. It weakened 0.9 percent to 76.79 pence per euro."

Come June 23rd, and people getting close to their holiday in Spain or Greece, how much more is it going to cost them?

And before the thought of an exit campaign was ever mentioned the Pound fluctuated just as much. PROVING NOTHING

I didn't say the pound doesn't fluctuate. I'm not sure where you're going with this argument.

My argument is that the pound ROSE when they said stay was ahead, and rose 0.8% and dropped by just as much when they said leave was ahead.

This makes me believe that the pound, it's worth, is partly due to being in the EU, and leaving could cost (see previous post) a lot more than the amount the UK pays into the EU.

That's not including all the other costs that I didn't include in my previous post.

There's almost NO CHANCE of the UK coming out of leaving the EU making more money, or even the same amount of money. Jobs will be lost, trade will be lost, people will suffer because of this. This is why the Brexit people don't talk about the economy. Because they know they don't have anything.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Their aims... what are their aims? And their beliefs, yeah, they have lots of beliefs, but not much reality.

And what is your 'reality' ?

Your reality is that we remain tied into a power-freaking foreign colossus that is serving its interests, and not ours. A powerhouse that exists to rob individual Nation States of their autonomy and subsume them into a single political entity, which the EU rules. Juncker made the EU's mindset clear, as I've posted. I've also posted evidence that this was the aim as far back as the 1950's.

Your reality would see such power-mongers succeed, for the sake of short-term economic 'gain' (unproven) and longer-term lack of political autonomy.

Mine would be to argue, and push, for our long-term freedom. I think we have a right to it. Don't you ?

My reality is that often you have a choice between two bad situations.

The EU isn't the best of anything, but being out of the EU isn't the best of anything either.

HOWEVER, the arguments for leaving the EU don't measure up with the realities of leaving. There are reasons to leave, and I could make quite a good case, but none of those reasons would be what the Brexit people are harping on about.

What you're saying is there is a "foreign colossus" that is serving its own interests. I'm sorry, but many people don't think the Tories or Labour are representing their own interests.

The power mongers will succeed if the UK leaves. If the UK stays there's a bloc which can act against those people. But, like I've said before, it would require EFFORT rather than just moaning.

Britain is a can't do country, or what?

But the power mongers will succeed if the UK remains, too. Maybe - MAYBE - we can stall their effort for a limited time, but not forever. We only have one vote amongst a couple of dozen others, after all !!

And at the end of it, we'll be at the tender mercy of a foreign colossus which, as I said, serves ITS interests, not ours.

Consider.The EEC began as mere trading bloc. Then the power-freaks moved in, created the EU, bound Member States into treaty obligations to the EU, these conferring power to the European Parliament - a Parliament that didn't exist under the old setup.

How 'successful' has the UK been in stopping any of this ? Answer ... Gordon Brown SIGNED US UP to the Lisbon Treaty !!

We have a chance to undo this wreckage on 23rd June, and reclaim what is ours by right ... the right to GOVERN OURSELVES.

You say that neither the Tories nor Labour are interested in the concerns of the ordinary citizen ? I can agree that this is true of Labour, who actually forbade us from having a Referendum. Though the Conservatives may - some of them - be pushing hard for continued membership, nonetheless, if it weren't for them, we'd have no Referendum ! I call that .... LISTENING ! Considering the ordinary citizen, not ignoring him.

Being out of the EU is very definitely the best of one specific thing. The chance to regain our political autonomy !!

The UK "only has one vote amongst a couple of dozen others", yeah, and so do those who want the EU to be a superstate, don't they? But they've managed to actually do something.

The EU has plenty of Euroskeptics, and if the UK could bring them together, they'd find they have a powerful body.

Again, the UK is a can't do country.

So, consider the EU as it used to be, and the Brits say this is the sort of thing they want, and they don't try and make it happen.

Did you see the pound dropped again? It rose 0.4% against the dollar and 0.8% against the Euro with a poll being pro-stay, and it's swung the other way.

Pound Drops as New Brexit Poll Shows ‘Leave’ Camp Taking Lead

"The pound dropped after a new poll showed a jump in support for the campaign to take Britain out of the European Union, spooking some investors who had thought that the result was a foregone conclusion."

"The pound dropped 0.9 percent to $1.4511 as of 5:37 p.m. London time, the biggest drop since May 3. It weakened 0.9 percent to 76.79 pence per euro."

Come June 23rd, and people getting close to their holiday in Spain or Greece, how much more is it going to cost them?

The European nations have banded together to create a voting bloc that can make or break other nations, they all have the same interests and aims. Being socialists they tend to freeze out the right wing nations, and don't inform them of impending changes of policy. So the nations in the loop or club can bring about changes in their laws before the laws are passed and have them not apply to their nations. Look at the recent history of laws altered in France and Germany that make the E.U. changes not workable there.

You're going to have to back up your claims here.

 

[Drummond]

And what is your 'reality' ?

Your reality is that we remain tied into a power-freaking foreign colossus that is serving its interests, and not ours. A powerhouse that exists to rob individual Nation States of their autonomy and subsume them into a single political entity, which the EU rules. Juncker made the EU's mindset clear, as I've posted. I've also posted evidence that this was the aim as far back as the 1950's.

Your reality would see such power-mongers succeed, for the sake of short-term economic 'gain' (unproven) and longer-term lack of political autonomy.

Mine would be to argue, and push, for our long-term freedom. I think we have a right to it. Don't you ?

My reality is that often you have a choice between two bad situations.

The EU isn't the best of anything, but being out of the EU isn't the best of anything either.

HOWEVER, the arguments for leaving the EU don't measure up with the realities of leaving. There are reasons to leave, and I could make quite a good case, but none of those reasons would be what the Brexit people are harping on about.

What you're saying is there is a "foreign colossus" that is serving its own interests. I'm sorry, but many people don't think the Tories or Labour are representing their own interests.

The power mongers will succeed if the UK leaves. If the UK stays there's a bloc which can act against those people. But, like I've said before, it would require EFFORT rather than just moaning.

Britain is a can't do country, or what?

But the power mongers will succeed if the UK remains, too. Maybe - MAYBE - we can stall their effort for a limited time, but not forever. We only have one vote amongst a couple of dozen others, after all !!

And at the end of it, we'll be at the tender mercy of a foreign colossus which, as I said, serves ITS interests, not ours.

Consider.The EEC began as mere trading bloc. Then the power-freaks moved in, created the EU, bound Member States into treaty obligations to the EU, these conferring power to the European Parliament - a Parliament that didn't exist under the old setup.

How 'successful' has the UK been in stopping any of this ? Answer ... Gordon Brown SIGNED US UP to the Lisbon Treaty !!

We have a chance to undo this wreckage on 23rd June, and reclaim what is ours by right ... the right to GOVERN OURSELVES.

You say that neither the Tories nor Labour are interested in the concerns of the ordinary citizen ? I can agree that this is true of Labour, who actually forbade us from having a Referendum. Though the Conservatives may - some of them - be pushing hard for continued membership, nonetheless, if it weren't for them, we'd have no Referendum ! I call that .... LISTENING ! Considering the ordinary citizen, not ignoring him.

Being out of the EU is very definitely the best of one specific thing. The chance to regain our political autonomy !!

The UK "only has one vote amongst a couple of dozen others", yeah, and so do those who want the EU to be a superstate, don't they? But they've managed to actually do something.

The EU has plenty of Euroskeptics, and if the UK could bring them together, they'd find they have a powerful body.

Again, the UK is a can't do country.

So, consider the EU as it used to be, and the Brits say this is the sort of thing they want, and they don't try and make it happen.

Did you see the pound dropped again? It rose 0.4% against the dollar and 0.8% against the Euro with a poll being pro-stay, and it's swung the other way.

Pound Drops as New Brexit Poll Shows ‘Leave’ Camp Taking Lead

"The pound dropped after a new poll showed a jump in support for the campaign to take Britain out of the European Union, spooking some investors who had thought that the result was a foregone conclusion."

"The pound dropped 0.9 percent to $1.4511 as of 5:37 p.m. London time, the biggest drop since May 3. It weakened 0.9 percent to 76.79 pence per euro."

Come June 23rd, and people getting close to their holiday in Spain or Greece, how much more is it going to cost them?

The market likes certainty. With a pro-EU decision, the markets have that certainty. Because .. of the familiarity of the status quo ... simply that.

With a UK forging new trading ties, in a wider market containing a wider scope of trading opportunities, the markets would respond very positively indeed to that ... once there was a proven case for prosperity.

As for the effect of June 23rd on holidaymakers going to Greece and Spain .. it's interesting to note that you've chosen two weak currencies. Consider the small, but highly unstable, economy of Greece. Small or not, some months ago it created crisis conditions within the EU as a whole. Greece got its bailout, yet may well default again in the future. What price continuing economic stability throughout the Eurozone, if that happens ? Spain is in a stronger position, yet not so very much stronger that she, too, may flounder someday.

'A chain is as strong as its weakest link'. Only as strong as Greece ? And .. you want to chain us to the entity that's having to carry such failing economies on its back ???

Better that we shake off such shackles, and man the lifeboats, in case the ship sinks, eh ?

What "new trading ties"????

The EU makes trade agreements that will have far more force than the UK could ever get. What is the UK going to get that will replace what the UK will lose from leaving the EU?

Do you know how much money the UK gets from EU trade agreements with those outside of the EU? Do you know how much money the UK gets from trading within the EU?

I looked at statistics (which I am unfortunately unable to find any more), and it showed that in the first two years of countries like Estonia, and all those who joined the EU in 2004, their trade with the UK increased up to 200%, and that withing 2 years. Why? Why would trade increase massively with the UK in this time? It's clear.

Stats are difficult, there are different interpretations of everything that could happen.

No UK trade benefit from EU membership - Civitas report - BBC News

Civitas says there's no benefit from being in the EU. I disagree with this. This "seems to contradict analysis by the Confederation of British Industry."

So, both sides will say their piece.

http://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default...nts/pdf/2014/pb_britishtrade_16jan14-8285.pdf

"If Britain were to leave the EU, it would face a difficult dilemma: having to negotiate access to the EU’s single market in exchange for continued adherence to its rules – or losing access in return for regulatory sovereignty that would be largely illusory."

Basically, the EU is about 50% of the UK's trade. The UK cannot afford to risk losing 50% of this trade. There's no way in hell the UK can make up this 50% of trade from outside the EU. You don't just go to Zimbabwe and say "hey, we're open and willing to deal, can you substitute for Spain?"

HM Revenue & Customs uktradeinfo - EU & Non-EU_Data

"Non-EU Exports for March 2016 were £12.9 billion. This remained unchanged compared with last month. There was a decrease of £3.6 billion (22 per cent) compared with March 2015."

"EU Exports for March 2016 were £12.0 billion. This was an increase of £0.6 billion (5.7 per cent) compared with last month, and a rise of £0.1 billion (0.6 per cent) compared with March 2015."

So, 12 billion to 12.9 billion for EU to non-EU trade per month. 12 billion pounds is a lot of money.

For example, if the pound lost 1% against the Euro, then that's 120 million pounds gone. That's 120 million a month. Make the pound lose 5% and that 600 million a month. 7.20 billion a year. And that's only in exports.

UK imports from the EU were 20 billion. 1% and the UK is paying an extra 200 million pounds. That's 320 million pounds a month. Make it 5% and that's 1.6 billion pounds a month, added to exports and that's 19.2 billion a year, added to the exports and that's 26.4 billion a year.

Then take into account the amount of trade the UK would actually lose from not being as competitive as those around them.

The EU costs the UK, what? About 6 billion a year. You would be willing to save 6 billion a year and risk losing 19.2 billion a year from a drop which is very close to what we saw yesterday from a poll saying leave was in the lead, or risk losing 26.4 billion a year if it goes to 5%, or you can do the maths based on this for other percentages.

Add in the costs of potentially losing money from not being part of EU trade deals and having to make their own (yes, I know you probably think that UK politicians are the best in the world, but clearly they're not, as the Germans and French are leading the EU) so, the UK going out to make those trade deals, with less power behind them, less chance of such a good deal, and you're losing even more money.

You ask 'What new trading ties ?'. I answer ... any and all that are available to us from any part of the world we, and they, want to see trade with us. Since we're not yet in the reality that sees us have the range of freedom for that, naturally, being specific is difficult at absolute best !! Nonetheless ... there IS a world outside of the EU (.. yes, really !) .. and we're fools to continue to stunt our ability and willingness to trade with it.

For all of your statistics, one central point seems to be completely escaping you. This is that the EU is essentially a house of cards, one fragile enough to be threatened by a very weak economy, one fragile enough to collapse entirely, should more such economies create a 'domino effect' of needed bailout funding.

If you think that this fragility, this 'house of cards' effect, is fiction .... consider .....

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/business/international/greece-debt-crisis-euro.html?_r=0

At the height of the debt crisis a few years ago, many experts worried that Greece’s problems would spill over to the rest of the world. If Greece defaulted on its debt and exited the eurozone, they argued, it might create global financial shocks bigger than the collapse of Lehman Brothers did.

Now, however, some people believe that if Greece were to leave the currency union, in what is known as a “Grexit,” it would not be such a catastrophe. Europe has put up safeguards to limit the so-called financial contagion, in an effort to keep the problems from spreading to other countries. Greece, just a tiny part of the eurozone economy, could regain financial autonomy by leaving, these people contend — and the eurozone would actually be better off without a country that seems to constantly need its neighbors’ support.

Greece does hold some leverage, however. European leaders are keen to avoid a new Greek crisis before a British referendum on membership to the European Union in June ....

Greece does hold some leverage, however. European leaders are keen to avoid a new Greek crisis before a British referendum on membership to the European Union in June ....

Quite. It simply 'wouldn't do' to have the EU experiencing a stability crisis, just when the UK was due to vote on continuing membership, now, would it ??

As this link said ... Greece is 'just a tiny part of the eurozone economy' ... and just look at the consternation its difficulties have been responsible for !! Now .. I think that the Eurozone (with difficulty) could've absorbed the consequences of a 'Grexit' and survived. How about Spain, though, or Portugal ... also weaker economies, but larger ones, ALSO a part of the Eurozone ?

As I've already posted ... a chain is only as strong as its WEAKEST link. Which is true. Apply that to the 'Eurozone', and ask .... how fragile is it, REALLY ... and what massive harm to the EU as a whole would be suffered from its collapse ??

People such as yourself would very happily see us signed up to the chaos and ruination that a suffering EU would inflict !!

However ... there's a solution. We chuck the EU entirely, and separate ourselves from contagion coming from an EU meltdown ... something that would hit us massively harder if we're tied into the EU, than if we're not.

Will the UK be a lifeboat able to sail away from a sinking ship ... or ... will it be irremediably tied to that sinking ship ?? We can decide our fate on 23rd June !!

What happened to Greece, and the shockwaves it created throughout the EU, was no fiction. The difficulties Greece poses, just Greece itself (!) .. have NOT gone away. Future bailouts ... can they be afforded ? What would that do to the stock markets ? How big a burden, directly OR indirectly, would future bailouts foist upon the UK, a political entity THAT NOW HAS ITS CHANCE OF ESCAPING IT ALL ??

Oh, by the way ...

£500 for EVERY British household: UK faces added £1billion bill to bail out Greece and save crisis-hit euro

British households each face a £500 bill to bail out Greece and save the crisis-hit euro.
Britain will be expected to hand over an extra £1billion for the International Monetary Fund's £110billion rescue package.

Britain will hand the sum over despite warnings the latest bailout will fail to save Greece's shattered economy. Eurozone finance ministers agreed a second £110billion rescue in the small hours yesterday, following 13 hours of talks in Brussels.

Who believes that Greece is in a salvageable position .. and how many MORE such bailouts will the EU agree to (but only after 23rd June, eh ??), complete with future burdens on us ?? The EU is a 'house of cards' entity ... FACT ...

 

[Divine Wind]

Wasn't sure, but it always seemed the advantages to staying outweighed any disadvantages. One can never be sure with the Brits, though. They have irrational tendencies (especially their virulence concerning France and the French).

Agreed staying in the EU outweighs the advantages/disadvantages of leaving, but the EU does need to change their rules a bit to give them more stability. The spendthrift bullshit with Greece and other countries who spend more than they can afford is hurting them all.

 

[frigidweirdo]

My reality is that often you have a choice between two bad situations.

The EU isn't the best of anything, but being out of the EU isn't the best of anything either.

HOWEVER, the arguments for leaving the EU don't measure up with the realities of leaving. There are reasons to leave, and I could make quite a good case, but none of those reasons would be what the Brexit people are harping on about.

What you're saying is there is a "foreign colossus" that is serving its own interests. I'm sorry, but many people don't think the Tories or Labour are representing their own interests.

The power mongers will succeed if the UK leaves. If the UK stays there's a bloc which can act against those people. But, like I've said before, it would require EFFORT rather than just moaning.

Britain is a can't do country, or what?

But the power mongers will succeed if the UK remains, too. Maybe - MAYBE - we can stall their effort for a limited time, but not forever. We only have one vote amongst a couple of dozen others, after all !!

And at the end of it, we'll be at the tender mercy of a foreign colossus which, as I said, serves ITS interests, not ours.

Consider.The EEC began as mere trading bloc. Then the power-freaks moved in, created the EU, bound Member States into treaty obligations to the EU, these conferring power to the European Parliament - a Parliament that didn't exist under the old setup.

How 'successful' has the UK been in stopping any of this ? Answer ... Gordon Brown SIGNED US UP to the Lisbon Treaty !!

We have a chance to undo this wreckage on 23rd June, and reclaim what is ours by right ... the right to GOVERN OURSELVES.

You say that neither the Tories nor Labour are interested in the concerns of the ordinary citizen ? I can agree that this is true of Labour, who actually forbade us from having a Referendum. Though the Conservatives may - some of them - be pushing hard for continued membership, nonetheless, if it weren't for them, we'd have no Referendum ! I call that .... LISTENING ! Considering the ordinary citizen, not ignoring him.

Being out of the EU is very definitely the best of one specific thing. The chance to regain our political autonomy !!

The UK "only has one vote amongst a couple of dozen others", yeah, and so do those who want the EU to be a superstate, don't they? But they've managed to actually do something.

The EU has plenty of Euroskeptics, and if the UK could bring them together, they'd find they have a powerful body.

Again, the UK is a can't do country.

So, consider the EU as it used to be, and the Brits say this is the sort of thing they want, and they don't try and make it happen.

Did you see the pound dropped again? It rose 0.4% against the dollar and 0.8% against the Euro with a poll being pro-stay, and it's swung the other way.

Pound Drops as New Brexit Poll Shows ‘Leave’ Camp Taking Lead

"The pound dropped after a new poll showed a jump in support for the campaign to take Britain out of the European Union, spooking some investors who had thought that the result was a foregone conclusion."

"The pound dropped 0.9 percent to $1.4511 as of 5:37 p.m. London time, the biggest drop since May 3. It weakened 0.9 percent to 76.79 pence per euro."

Come June 23rd, and people getting close to their holiday in Spain or Greece, how much more is it going to cost them?

The market likes certainty. With a pro-EU decision, the markets have that certainty. Because .. of the familiarity of the status quo ... simply that.

With a UK forging new trading ties, in a wider market containing a wider scope of trading opportunities, the markets would respond very positively indeed to that ... once there was a proven case for prosperity.

As for the effect of June 23rd on holidaymakers going to Greece and Spain .. it's interesting to note that you've chosen two weak currencies. Consider the small, but highly unstable, economy of Greece. Small or not, some months ago it created crisis conditions within the EU as a whole. Greece got its bailout, yet may well default again in the future. What price continuing economic stability throughout the Eurozone, if that happens ? Spain is in a stronger position, yet not so very much stronger that she, too, may flounder someday.

'A chain is as strong as its weakest link'. Only as strong as Greece ? And .. you want to chain us to the entity that's having to carry such failing economies on its back ???

Better that we shake off such shackles, and man the lifeboats, in case the ship sinks, eh ?

What "new trading ties"????

The EU makes trade agreements that will have far more force than the UK could ever get. What is the UK going to get that will replace what the UK will lose from leaving the EU?

Do you know how much money the UK gets from EU trade agreements with those outside of the EU? Do you know how much money the UK gets from trading within the EU?

I looked at statistics (which I am unfortunately unable to find any more), and it showed that in the first two years of countries like Estonia, and all those who joined the EU in 2004, their trade with the UK increased up to 200%, and that withing 2 years. Why? Why would trade increase massively with the UK in this time? It's clear.

Stats are difficult, there are different interpretations of everything that could happen.

No UK trade benefit from EU membership - Civitas report - BBC News

Civitas says there's no benefit from being in the EU. I disagree with this. This "seems to contradict analysis by the Confederation of British Industry."

So, both sides will say their piece.

http://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default...nts/pdf/2014/pb_britishtrade_16jan14-8285.pdf

"If Britain were to leave the EU, it would face a difficult dilemma: having to negotiate access to the EU’s single market in exchange for continued adherence to its rules – or losing access in return for regulatory sovereignty that would be largely illusory."

Basically, the EU is about 50% of the UK's trade. The UK cannot afford to risk losing 50% of this trade. There's no way in hell the UK can make up this 50% of trade from outside the EU. You don't just go to Zimbabwe and say "hey, we're open and willing to deal, can you substitute for Spain?"

HM Revenue & Customs uktradeinfo - EU & Non-EU_Data

"Non-EU Exports for March 2016 were £12.9 billion. This remained unchanged compared with last month. There was a decrease of £3.6 billion (22 per cent) compared with March 2015."

"EU Exports for March 2016 were £12.0 billion. This was an increase of £0.6 billion (5.7 per cent) compared with last month, and a rise of £0.1 billion (0.6 per cent) compared with March 2015."

So, 12 billion to 12.9 billion for EU to non-EU trade per month. 12 billion pounds is a lot of money.

For example, if the pound lost 1% against the Euro, then that's 120 million pounds gone. That's 120 million a month. Make the pound lose 5% and that 600 million a month. 7.20 billion a year. And that's only in exports.

UK imports from the EU were 20 billion. 1% and the UK is paying an extra 200 million pounds. That's 320 million pounds a month. Make it 5% and that's 1.6 billion pounds a month, added to exports and that's 19.2 billion a year, added to the exports and that's 26.4 billion a year.

Then take into account the amount of trade the UK would actually lose from not being as competitive as those around them.

The EU costs the UK, what? About 6 billion a year. You would be willing to save 6 billion a year and risk losing 19.2 billion a year from a drop which is very close to what we saw yesterday from a poll saying leave was in the lead, or risk losing 26.4 billion a year if it goes to 5%, or you can do the maths based on this for other percentages.

Add in the costs of potentially losing money from not being part of EU trade deals and having to make their own (yes, I know you probably think that UK politicians are the best in the world, but clearly they're not, as the Germans and French are leading the EU) so, the UK going out to make those trade deals, with less power behind them, less chance of such a good deal, and you're losing even more money.

You ask 'What new trading ties ?'. I answer ... any and all that are available to us from any part of the world we, and they, want to see trade with us. Since we're not yet in the reality that sees us have the range of freedom for that, naturally, being specific is difficult at absolute best !! Nonetheless ... there IS a world outside of the EU (.. yes, really !) .. and we're fools to continue to stunt our ability and willingness to trade with it.

For all of your statistics, one central point seems to be completely escaping you. This is that the EU is essentially a house of cards, one fragile enough to be threatened by a very weak economy, one fragile enough to collapse entirely, should more such economies create a 'domino effect' of needed bailout funding.

If you think that this fragility, this 'house of cards' effect, is fiction .... consider .....

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/business/international/greece-debt-crisis-euro.html?_r=0

At the height of the debt crisis a few years ago, many experts worried that Greece’s problems would spill over to the rest of the world. If Greece defaulted on its debt and exited the eurozone, they argued, it might create global financial shocks bigger than the collapse of Lehman Brothers did.

Now, however, some people believe that if Greece were to leave the currency union, in what is known as a “Grexit,” it would not be such a catastrophe. Europe has put up safeguards to limit the so-called financial contagion, in an effort to keep the problems from spreading to other countries. Greece, just a tiny part of the eurozone economy, could regain financial autonomy by leaving, these people contend — and the eurozone would actually be better off without a country that seems to constantly need its neighbors’ support.

Greece does hold some leverage, however. European leaders are keen to avoid a new Greek crisis before a British referendum on membership to the European Union in June ....

Quite. It simply 'wouldn't do' to have the EU experiencing a stability crisis, just when the UK was due to vote on continuing membership, now, would it ??

As this link said ... Greece is 'just a tiny part of the eurozone economy' ... and just look at the consternation its difficulties have been responsible for !! Now .. I think that the Eurozone (with difficulty) could've absorbed the consequences of a 'Grexit' and survived. How about Spain, though, or Portugal ... also weaker economies, but larger ones, ALSO a part of the Eurozone ?

As I've already posted ... a chain is only as strong as its WEAKEST link. Which is true. Apply that to the 'Eurozone', and ask .... how fragile is it, REALLY ... and what massive harm to the EU as a whole would be suffered from its collapse ??

People such as yourself would very happily see us signed up to the chaos and ruination that a suffering EU would inflict !!

However ... there's a solution. We chuck the EU entirely, and separate ourselves from contagion coming from an EU meltdown ... something that would hit us massively harder if we're tied into the EU, than if we're not.

Will the UK be a lifeboat able to sail away from a sinking ship ... or ... will it be irremediably tied to that sinking ship ?? We can decide our fate on 23rd June !!

What happened to Greece, and the shockwaves it created throughout the EU, was no fiction. The difficulties Greece poses, just Greece itself (!) .. have NOT gone away. Future bailouts ... can they be afforded ? What would that do to the stock markets ? How big a burden, directly OR indirectly, would future bailouts foist upon the UK, a political entity THAT NOW HAS ITS CHANCE OF ESCAPING IT ALL ??

How many trading ties does the UK not have that are potential trading ties?

How much will these potential trading ties the UK isn't making use bring in compared to how much the UK might lose?

The UK trades 50%, more or less (it fluctuates and the EU trade is increasing as the recession weakens) outside of the EU. That's quite a bit. But also shows that we are already making the most of these trading ties. New ones?

How weak is the EU? Weaker than these trading partners you want from outside of the EU? Zimbabwe? Er... I went 2 years ago, got dropped off outside some small town, went to the town, took money out. Now the banks have massive queues.

Which countries are more stable than those in the EU? The US? They CAUSED the major recession. China? Recession coming on. Japan? They've been through recessions in the past and their economy is weakening.
ALL ECONOMIES are weak inherently. The UK has to trade with countries who could end up in a recession in 6 months, just as the UK is also weak. It's the nature of the world.

The EU has Greece (shouldn't have been allowed into the Euro), Spain and Portugal who have a fragile state of things. BUT the Euroskeptics who everyone is listening to, have been saying the Euro would collapse in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 and it's still not collapsed in 2016, has it?

People such as myself understand the reality of the EU, both the good and the bad, and there's a lot of bad. Trust me. I lived in Spain and one Spanish guy was advocating for a EU superstate. I told he why he was wrong. This was a long time ago. But things probably haven't changed.

 

[there4eyeM]

The E.U. has definitely gone about things bass ackwards on many counts. But, it is what it is and it's too late to start over from scratch.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Wasn't sure, but it always seemed the advantages to staying outweighed any disadvantages. One can never be sure with the Brits, though. They have irrational tendencies (especially their virulence concerning France and the French).

Agreed staying in the EU outweighs the advantages/disadvantages of leaving, but the EU does need to change their rules a bit to give them more stability. The spendthrift bullshit with Greece and other countries who spend more than they can afford is hurting them all.

Yes, I totally agree. The EU needs reform. The problem is those who don't agree with the Euro superstate just shout "out" and don't try to change things. So how will there ever be change.

 

[frigidweirdo]

The E.U. has definitely gone about things bass ackwards on many counts. But, it is what it is and it's too late to start over from scratch.

It doesn't need to be started from scratch, just changed in various areas.

 

[Drummond]

But the power mongers will succeed if the UK remains, too. Maybe - MAYBE - we can stall their effort for a limited time, but not forever. We only have one vote amongst a couple of dozen others, after all !!

And at the end of it, we'll be at the tender mercy of a foreign colossus which, as I said, serves ITS interests, not ours.

Consider.The EEC began as mere trading bloc. Then the power-freaks moved in, created the EU, bound Member States into treaty obligations to the EU, these conferring power to the European Parliament - a Parliament that didn't exist under the old setup.

How 'successful' has the UK been in stopping any of this ? Answer ... Gordon Brown SIGNED US UP to the Lisbon Treaty !!

We have a chance to undo this wreckage on 23rd June, and reclaim what is ours by right ... the right to GOVERN OURSELVES.

You say that neither the Tories nor Labour are interested in the concerns of the ordinary citizen ? I can agree that this is true of Labour, who actually forbade us from having a Referendum. Though the Conservatives may - some of them - be pushing hard for continued membership, nonetheless, if it weren't for them, we'd have no Referendum ! I call that .... LISTENING ! Considering the ordinary citizen, not ignoring him.

Being out of the EU is very definitely the best of one specific thing. The chance to regain our political autonomy !!

The UK "only has one vote amongst a couple of dozen others", yeah, and so do those who want the EU to be a superstate, don't they? But they've managed to actually do something.

The EU has plenty of Euroskeptics, and if the UK could bring them together, they'd find they have a powerful body.

Again, the UK is a can't do country.

So, consider the EU as it used to be, and the Brits say this is the sort of thing they want, and they don't try and make it happen.

Did you see the pound dropped again? It rose 0.4% against the dollar and 0.8% against the Euro with a poll being pro-stay, and it's swung the other way.

Pound Drops as New Brexit Poll Shows ‘Leave’ Camp Taking Lead

"The pound dropped after a new poll showed a jump in support for the campaign to take Britain out of the European Union, spooking some investors who had thought that the result was a foregone conclusion."

"The pound dropped 0.9 percent to $1.4511 as of 5:37 p.m. London time, the biggest drop since May 3. It weakened 0.9 percent to 76.79 pence per euro."

Come June 23rd, and people getting close to their holiday in Spain or Greece, how much more is it going to cost them?

The market likes certainty. With a pro-EU decision, the markets have that certainty. Because .. of the familiarity of the status quo ... simply that.

With a UK forging new trading ties, in a wider market containing a wider scope of trading opportunities, the markets would respond very positively indeed to that ... once there was a proven case for prosperity.

As for the effect of June 23rd on holidaymakers going to Greece and Spain .. it's interesting to note that you've chosen two weak currencies. Consider the small, but highly unstable, economy of Greece. Small or not, some months ago it created crisis conditions within the EU as a whole. Greece got its bailout, yet may well default again in the future. What price continuing economic stability throughout the Eurozone, if that happens ? Spain is in a stronger position, yet not so very much stronger that she, too, may flounder someday.

'A chain is as strong as its weakest link'. Only as strong as Greece ? And .. you want to chain us to the entity that's having to carry such failing economies on its back ???

Better that we shake off such shackles, and man the lifeboats, in case the ship sinks, eh ?

What "new trading ties"????

The EU makes trade agreements that will have far more force than the UK could ever get. What is the UK going to get that will replace what the UK will lose from leaving the EU?

Do you know how much money the UK gets from EU trade agreements with those outside of the EU? Do you know how much money the UK gets from trading within the EU?

I looked at statistics (which I am unfortunately unable to find any more), and it showed that in the first two years of countries like Estonia, and all those who joined the EU in 2004, their trade with the UK increased up to 200%, and that withing 2 years. Why? Why would trade increase massively with the UK in this time? It's clear.

Stats are difficult, there are different interpretations of everything that could happen.

No UK trade benefit from EU membership - Civitas report - BBC News

Civitas says there's no benefit from being in the EU. I disagree with this. This "seems to contradict analysis by the Confederation of British Industry."

So, both sides will say their piece.

http://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default...nts/pdf/2014/pb_britishtrade_16jan14-8285.pdf

"If Britain were to leave the EU, it would face a difficult dilemma: having to negotiate access to the EU’s single market in exchange for continued adherence to its rules – or losing access in return for regulatory sovereignty that would be largely illusory."

Basically, the EU is about 50% of the UK's trade. The UK cannot afford to risk losing 50% of this trade. There's no way in hell the UK can make up this 50% of trade from outside the EU. You don't just go to Zimbabwe and say "hey, we're open and willing to deal, can you substitute for Spain?"

HM Revenue & Customs uktradeinfo - EU & Non-EU_Data

"Non-EU Exports for March 2016 were £12.9 billion. This remained unchanged compared with last month. There was a decrease of £3.6 billion (22 per cent) compared with March 2015."

"EU Exports for March 2016 were £12.0 billion. This was an increase of £0.6 billion (5.7 per cent) compared with last month, and a rise of £0.1 billion (0.6 per cent) compared with March 2015."

So, 12 billion to 12.9 billion for EU to non-EU trade per month. 12 billion pounds is a lot of money.

For example, if the pound lost 1% against the Euro, then that's 120 million pounds gone. That's 120 million a month. Make the pound lose 5% and that 600 million a month. 7.20 billion a year. And that's only in exports.

UK imports from the EU were 20 billion. 1% and the UK is paying an extra 200 million pounds. That's 320 million pounds a month. Make it 5% and that's 1.6 billion pounds a month, added to exports and that's 19.2 billion a year, added to the exports and that's 26.4 billion a year.

Then take into account the amount of trade the UK would actually lose from not being as competitive as those around them.

The EU costs the UK, what? About 6 billion a year. You would be willing to save 6 billion a year and risk losing 19.2 billion a year from a drop which is very close to what we saw yesterday from a poll saying leave was in the lead, or risk losing 26.4 billion a year if it goes to 5%, or you can do the maths based on this for other percentages.

Add in the costs of potentially losing money from not being part of EU trade deals and having to make their own (yes, I know you probably think that UK politicians are the best in the world, but clearly they're not, as the Germans and French are leading the EU) so, the UK going out to make those trade deals, with less power behind them, less chance of such a good deal, and you're losing even more money.

You ask 'What new trading ties ?'. I answer ... any and all that are available to us from any part of the world we, and they, want to see trade with us. Since we're not yet in the reality that sees us have the range of freedom for that, naturally, being specific is difficult at absolute best !! Nonetheless ... there IS a world outside of the EU (.. yes, really !) .. and we're fools to continue to stunt our ability and willingness to trade with it.

For all of your statistics, one central point seems to be completely escaping you. This is that the EU is essentially a house of cards, one fragile enough to be threatened by a very weak economy, one fragile enough to collapse entirely, should more such economies create a 'domino effect' of needed bailout funding.

If you think that this fragility, this 'house of cards' effect, is fiction .... consider .....

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/business/international/greece-debt-crisis-euro.html?_r=0

At the height of the debt crisis a few years ago, many experts worried that Greece’s problems would spill over to the rest of the world. If Greece defaulted on its debt and exited the eurozone, they argued, it might create global financial shocks bigger than the collapse of Lehman Brothers did.

Now, however, some people believe that if Greece were to leave the currency union, in what is known as a “Grexit,” it would not be such a catastrophe. Europe has put up safeguards to limit the so-called financial contagion, in an effort to keep the problems from spreading to other countries. Greece, just a tiny part of the eurozone economy, could regain financial autonomy by leaving, these people contend — and the eurozone would actually be better off without a country that seems to constantly need its neighbors’ support.

Greece does hold some leverage, however. European leaders are keen to avoid a new Greek crisis before a British referendum on membership to the European Union in June ....

Quite. It simply 'wouldn't do' to have the EU experiencing a stability crisis, just when the UK was due to vote on continuing membership, now, would it ??

As this link said ... Greece is 'just a tiny part of the eurozone economy' ... and just look at the consternation its difficulties have been responsible for !! Now .. I think that the Eurozone (with difficulty) could've absorbed the consequences of a 'Grexit' and survived. How about Spain, though, or Portugal ... also weaker economies, but larger ones, ALSO a part of the Eurozone ?

As I've already posted ... a chain is only as strong as its WEAKEST link. Which is true. Apply that to the 'Eurozone', and ask .... how fragile is it, REALLY ... and what massive harm to the EU as a whole would be suffered from its collapse ??

People such as yourself would very happily see us signed up to the chaos and ruination that a suffering EU would inflict !!

However ... there's a solution. We chuck the EU entirely, and separate ourselves from contagion coming from an EU meltdown ... something that would hit us massively harder if we're tied into the EU, than if we're not.

Will the UK be a lifeboat able to sail away from a sinking ship ... or ... will it be irremediably tied to that sinking ship ?? We can decide our fate on 23rd June !!

What happened to Greece, and the shockwaves it created throughout the EU, was no fiction. The difficulties Greece poses, just Greece itself (!) .. have NOT gone away. Future bailouts ... can they be afforded ? What would that do to the stock markets ? How big a burden, directly OR indirectly, would future bailouts foist upon the UK, a political entity THAT NOW HAS ITS CHANCE OF ESCAPING IT ALL ??

How many trading ties does the UK not have that are potential trading ties?

How much will these potential trading ties the UK isn't making use bring in compared to how much the UK might lose?

The UK trades 50%, more or less (it fluctuates and the EU trade is increasing as the recession weakens) outside of the EU. That's quite a bit. But also shows that we are already making the most of these trading ties. New ones?

How weak is the EU? Weaker than these trading partners you want from outside of the EU? Zimbabwe? Er... I went 2 years ago, got dropped off outside some small town, went to the town, took money out. Now the banks have massive queues.

Which countries are more stable than those in the EU? The US? They CAUSED the major recession. China? Recession coming on. Japan? They've been through recessions in the past and their economy is weakening.
ALL ECONOMIES are weak inherently. The UK has to trade with countries who could end up in a recession in 6 months, just as the UK is also weak. It's the nature of the world.

The EU has Greece (shouldn't have been allowed into the Euro), Spain and Portugal who have a fragile state of things. BUT the Euroskeptics who everyone is listening to, have been saying the Euro would collapse in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 and it's still not collapsed in 2016, has it?

People such as myself understand the reality of the EU, both the good and the bad, and there's a lot of bad. Trust me. I lived in Spain and one Spanish guy was advocating for a EU superstate. I told he why he was wrong. This was a long time ago. But things probably haven't changed.

Noting that the Euro hasn't collapsed, says nothing about its immunity (.. supposed ..) from future collapse. I repeat .. a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Any future financial crisis, emanating from the EU or not, WILL hit weak economies hard. The EU certainly 'has its share' of those, and, each and every one of them will drag the EU, and the Eurozone, into spiralling weakness or outright collapse -- if any such crisis is bad enough.

The events of 2008 show us that this is no cloud-cuckooland fiction. The possibility is all too real. The EU, and its Eurozone, is a 'house of cards' structure, NOT immune to outright failure.

If the UK trades outside of the EU, having got shot of it ... it does so on a standalone basis with foreign economy after foreign economy, and can adjust its trading preferences on a case-by-case basis. Do we have these same freedoms, courtesy of EU bureaucracy and outright dictatorship OR, are we tied into this 'house of cards' structure, as my example of a tethered lifeboat illustrated ?

Consider: the EU is a combined structure of many Member States. These economies have varying capacities for strength, and varying capacities to weather financial storms. A weak economy forming a part of the EU, cannot help but exert a 'dragging' effect on ALL of the EU members ... can it ? And, can the EU as a whole cope at all well with any of it ?

There's one way to find out. Remain a member of the EU, see a crisis develop, and hope against hope that survival is on the cards ('house of', or otherwise).

Perhaps prayers would help ... ?