Brexit busted.

[frigidweirdo]

It doesn't need to be started from scratch, just changed in various areas.

'Made over for England' is not the formula.

Made over for the people of the EU. Many of whom don't want an EU superstate.

I fully support collapsing the EU. It eliminates a major competitor in the global market allowing us to better focus on China.

The EU is the US's biggest ally.

China, population 1.3 billion.

USA, population 300 million.
EU, population 500 million.

Together they don't have the population of China. For now, it's okay. Chinese military spending will be on par with The US's in about 20 years time. After that.... well.... you're going to need all the friends you can get.

Uhhh, are you bitching because I agreed with you about collapsing the EU?

I don't agree with collapsing the EU.

I'm also not bitching, but presenting an argument with facts.

 

[montelatici]

Again, when was Italy ever bailed out?

Ahhh, I see you want to play word games. Okay. How about September 3rd, 1943?

Was Italy bailed out? They lost the war and lost colonies and Italian land that was given to the Yugoslavs and Greeks. Not much of a bail out.

So, Italy never received a bailout. In fact, here are all the countries that have defaulted since 1800. Do you see Italy on the list, no, but you do see Germany. So shut the f_ck up.

 

[Divine Wind]

Again, when was Italy ever bailed out?

Ahhh, I see you want to play word games. Okay. How about September 3rd, 1943?

Was Italy bailed out? They lost the war and lost colonies and Italian land that was given to the Yugoslavs and Greeks. Not much of a bail out.

So, Italy never received a bailout. In fact, here are all the countries that have defaulted since 1800. Do you see Italy on the list, no, but you do see Germany. So shut the f_ck up.

Yes. We bailed them out of that fascist shithole they'd dug themselves into.

If they don't pull their heads out of their own asses and get their finances fixed, they'll be looking to be bailed out again.

Trivia Question: How many governments has Italy gone through since WWII?

 

[montelatici]

Again, when was Italy ever bailed out?

Ahhh, I see you want to play word games. Okay. How about September 3rd, 1943?

Was Italy bailed out? They lost the war and lost colonies and Italian land that was given to the Yugoslavs and Greeks. Not much of a bail out.

So, Italy never received a bailout. In fact, here are all the countries that have defaulted since 1800. Do you see Italy on the list, no, but you do see Germany. So shut the f_ck up.

Yes. We bailed them out of that fascist shithole they'd dug themselves into.

If they don't pull their heads out of their own asses and get their finances fixed, they'll be looking to be bailed out again.

Trivia Question: How many governments has Italy gone through since WWII?

Italy has never been bailed out asshole.

 

[montelatici]

Again, when was Italy ever bailed out?

Ahhh, I see you want to play word games. Okay. How about September 3rd, 1943?

Was Italy bailed out? They lost the war and lost colonies and Italian land that was given to the Yugoslavs and Greeks. Not much of a bail out.

So, Italy never received a bailout. In fact, here are all the countries that have defaulted since 1800. Do you see Italy on the list, no, but you do see Germany. So shut the f_ck up.

Yes. We bailed them out of that fascist shithole they'd dug themselves into.

If they don't pull their heads out of their own asses and get their finances fixed, they'll be looking to be bailed out again.

Trivia Question: How many governments has Italy gone through since WWII?

How many governments has the U.S. gone through since WW2? About one every 6 years. Far more than Italy. You just don't understand that the parliamentary system calls a change of ruling party a change of government.

 

[Divine Wind]

Italy has never been bailed out asshole.

I never said it did, which makes you a low-class, verbally abusive liar. Do you smack women and children around like most low-lifes?

 

[montelatici]

Italy has never been bailed out asshole.

I never said it did, which makes you a low-class, verbally abusive liar. Do you smack women and children around like most low-lifes?

I state fact. You have been found out. Shut up while you're ahead instead of projecting, you ignorant piece of crap.

 

[Divine Wind]

I state fact. You have been found out. Shut up while you're ahead instead of projecting, you ignorant piece of crap.

Disagreed. You post false accusations and insults just like the post your post quoted above.

You obviously have personal issues and, given your abusive behavior, I fail to see how you have anything of substance to offer.

 

[Phoenall]

And what is your 'reality' ?

Your reality is that we remain tied into a power-freaking foreign colossus that is serving its interests, and not ours. A powerhouse that exists to rob individual Nation States of their autonomy and subsume them into a single political entity, which the EU rules. Juncker made the EU's mindset clear, as I've posted. I've also posted evidence that this was the aim as far back as the 1950's.

Your reality would see such power-mongers succeed, for the sake of short-term economic 'gain' (unproven) and longer-term lack of political autonomy.

Mine would be to argue, and push, for our long-term freedom. I think we have a right to it. Don't you ?

My reality is that often you have a choice between two bad situations.

The EU isn't the best of anything, but being out of the EU isn't the best of anything either.

HOWEVER, the arguments for leaving the EU don't measure up with the realities of leaving. There are reasons to leave, and I could make quite a good case, but none of those reasons would be what the Brexit people are harping on about.

What you're saying is there is a "foreign colossus" that is serving its own interests. I'm sorry, but many people don't think the Tories or Labour are representing their own interests.

The power mongers will succeed if the UK leaves. If the UK stays there's a bloc which can act against those people. But, like I've said before, it would require EFFORT rather than just moaning.

Britain is a can't do country, or what?

But the power mongers will succeed if the UK remains, too. Maybe - MAYBE - we can stall their effort for a limited time, but not forever. We only have one vote amongst a couple of dozen others, after all !!

And at the end of it, we'll be at the tender mercy of a foreign colossus which, as I said, serves ITS interests, not ours.

Consider.The EEC began as mere trading bloc. Then the power-freaks moved in, created the EU, bound Member States into treaty obligations to the EU, these conferring power to the European Parliament - a Parliament that didn't exist under the old setup.

How 'successful' has the UK been in stopping any of this ? Answer ... Gordon Brown SIGNED US UP to the Lisbon Treaty !!

We have a chance to undo this wreckage on 23rd June, and reclaim what is ours by right ... the right to GOVERN OURSELVES.

You say that neither the Tories nor Labour are interested in the concerns of the ordinary citizen ? I can agree that this is true of Labour, who actually forbade us from having a Referendum. Though the Conservatives may - some of them - be pushing hard for continued membership, nonetheless, if it weren't for them, we'd have no Referendum ! I call that .... LISTENING ! Considering the ordinary citizen, not ignoring him.

Being out of the EU is very definitely the best of one specific thing. The chance to regain our political autonomy !!

The UK "only has one vote amongst a couple of dozen others", yeah, and so do those who want the EU to be a superstate, don't they? But they've managed to actually do something.

The EU has plenty of Euroskeptics, and if the UK could bring them together, they'd find they have a powerful body.

Again, the UK is a can't do country.

So, consider the EU as it used to be, and the Brits say this is the sort of thing they want, and they don't try and make it happen.

Did you see the pound dropped again? It rose 0.4% against the dollar and 0.8% against the Euro with a poll being pro-stay, and it's swung the other way.

Pound Drops as New Brexit Poll Shows ‘Leave’ Camp Taking Lead

"The pound dropped after a new poll showed a jump in support for the campaign to take Britain out of the European Union, spooking some investors who had thought that the result was a foregone conclusion."

"The pound dropped 0.9 percent to $1.4511 as of 5:37 p.m. London time, the biggest drop since May 3. It weakened 0.9 percent to 76.79 pence per euro."

Come June 23rd, and people getting close to their holiday in Spain or Greece, how much more is it going to cost them?

The market likes certainty. With a pro-EU decision, the markets have that certainty. Because .. of the familiarity of the status quo ... simply that.

With a UK forging new trading ties, in a wider market containing a wider scope of trading opportunities, the markets would respond very positively indeed to that ... once there was a proven case for prosperity.

As for the effect of June 23rd on holidaymakers going to Greece and Spain .. it's interesting to note that you've chosen two weak currencies. Consider the small, but highly unstable, economy of Greece. Small or not, some months ago it created crisis conditions within the EU as a whole. Greece got its bailout, yet may well default again in the future. What price continuing economic stability throughout the Eurozone, if that happens ? Spain is in a stronger position, yet not so very much stronger that she, too, may flounder someday.

'A chain is as strong as its weakest link'. Only as strong as Greece ? And .. you want to chain us to the entity that's having to carry such failing economies on its back ???

Better that we shake off such shackles, and man the lifeboats, in case the ship sinks, eh ?

What "new trading ties"????

The EU makes trade agreements that will have far more force than the UK could ever get. What is the UK going to get that will replace what the UK will lose from leaving the EU?

Do you know how much money the UK gets from EU trade agreements with those outside of the EU? Do you know how much money the UK gets from trading within the EU?

I looked at statistics (which I am unfortunately unable to find any more), and it showed that in the first two years of countries like Estonia, and all those who joined the EU in 2004, their trade with the UK increased up to 200%, and that withing 2 years. Why? Why would trade increase massively with the UK in this time? It's clear.

Stats are difficult, there are different interpretations of everything that could happen.

No UK trade benefit from EU membership - Civitas report - BBC News

Civitas says there's no benefit from being in the EU. I disagree with this. This "seems to contradict analysis by the Confederation of British Industry."

So, both sides will say their piece.

http://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default...nts/pdf/2014/pb_britishtrade_16jan14-8285.pdf

"If Britain were to leave the EU, it would face a difficult dilemma: having to negotiate access to the EU’s single market in exchange for continued adherence to its rules – or losing access in return for regulatory sovereignty that would be largely illusory."

Basically, the EU is about 50% of the UK's trade. The UK cannot afford to risk losing 50% of this trade. There's no way in hell the UK can make up this 50% of trade from outside the EU. You don't just go to Zimbabwe and say "hey, we're open and willing to deal, can you substitute for Spain?"

HM Revenue & Customs uktradeinfo - EU & Non-EU_Data

"Non-EU Exports for March 2016 were £12.9 billion. This remained unchanged compared with last month. There was a decrease of £3.6 billion (22 per cent) compared with March 2015."

"EU Exports for March 2016 were £12.0 billion. This was an increase of £0.6 billion (5.7 per cent) compared with last month, and a rise of £0.1 billion (0.6 per cent) compared with March 2015."

So, 12 billion to 12.9 billion for EU to non-EU trade per month. 12 billion pounds is a lot of money.

For example, if the pound lost 1% against the Euro, then that's 120 million pounds gone. That's 120 million a month. Make the pound lose 5% and that 600 million a month. 7.20 billion a year. And that's only in exports.

UK imports from the EU were 20 billion. 1% and the UK is paying an extra 200 million pounds. That's 320 million pounds a month. Make it 5% and that's 1.6 billion pounds a month, added to exports and that's 19.2 billion a year, added to the exports and that's 26.4 billion a year.

Then take into account the amount of trade the UK would actually lose from not being as competitive as those around them.

The EU costs the UK, what? About 6 billion a year. You would be willing to save 6 billion a year and risk losing 19.2 billion a year from a drop which is very close to what we saw yesterday from a poll saying leave was in the lead, or risk losing 26.4 billion a year if it goes to 5%, or you can do the maths based on this for other percentages.

Add in the costs of potentially losing money from not being part of EU trade deals and having to make their own (yes, I know you probably think that UK politicians are the best in the world, but clearly they're not, as the Germans and French are leading the EU) so, the UK going out to make those trade deals, with less power behind them, less chance of such a good deal, and you're losing even more money.

And the EU will still need those same goods when the UK leaves, that is if it leaves. Trade is a two way street and the EU will lose an outlet for its goods as well, meaning that they will have to negotiate a new policy. Already it is said to reduce the cost of white goods in the UK because we will no longer pay the EU levy on them. We will also be able to buy appliances that work and not underrated underpowered toys that meet EU approval on efficiency. ( how would you like a Ford Mustang powered by a single cylinder moped engine ) So in a nutshell we can set our own prices, so undercutting EU manufacturers. The EU will still need our products until they can get the East to produce the goods they are in need of. Just as the US need the UK to offload its goods on

 

[Phoenall]

Italy has never been bailed out asshole.

I never said it did, which makes you a low-class, verbally abusive liar. Do you smack women and children around like most low-lifes?

I state fact. You have been found out. Shut up while you're ahead instead of projecting, you ignorant piece of crap.

His usual mantra when he posts his made up reality and gets caught out LYING

 

[frigidweirdo]

My reality is that often you have a choice between two bad situations.

The EU isn't the best of anything, but being out of the EU isn't the best of anything either.

HOWEVER, the arguments for leaving the EU don't measure up with the realities of leaving. There are reasons to leave, and I could make quite a good case, but none of those reasons would be what the Brexit people are harping on about.

What you're saying is there is a "foreign colossus" that is serving its own interests. I'm sorry, but many people don't think the Tories or Labour are representing their own interests.

The power mongers will succeed if the UK leaves. If the UK stays there's a bloc which can act against those people. But, like I've said before, it would require EFFORT rather than just moaning.

Britain is a can't do country, or what?

But the power mongers will succeed if the UK remains, too. Maybe - MAYBE - we can stall their effort for a limited time, but not forever. We only have one vote amongst a couple of dozen others, after all !!

And at the end of it, we'll be at the tender mercy of a foreign colossus which, as I said, serves ITS interests, not ours.

Consider.The EEC began as mere trading bloc. Then the power-freaks moved in, created the EU, bound Member States into treaty obligations to the EU, these conferring power to the European Parliament - a Parliament that didn't exist under the old setup.

How 'successful' has the UK been in stopping any of this ? Answer ... Gordon Brown SIGNED US UP to the Lisbon Treaty !!

We have a chance to undo this wreckage on 23rd June, and reclaim what is ours by right ... the right to GOVERN OURSELVES.

You say that neither the Tories nor Labour are interested in the concerns of the ordinary citizen ? I can agree that this is true of Labour, who actually forbade us from having a Referendum. Though the Conservatives may - some of them - be pushing hard for continued membership, nonetheless, if it weren't for them, we'd have no Referendum ! I call that .... LISTENING ! Considering the ordinary citizen, not ignoring him.

Being out of the EU is very definitely the best of one specific thing. The chance to regain our political autonomy !!

The UK "only has one vote amongst a couple of dozen others", yeah, and so do those who want the EU to be a superstate, don't they? But they've managed to actually do something.

The EU has plenty of Euroskeptics, and if the UK could bring them together, they'd find they have a powerful body.

Again, the UK is a can't do country.

So, consider the EU as it used to be, and the Brits say this is the sort of thing they want, and they don't try and make it happen.

Did you see the pound dropped again? It rose 0.4% against the dollar and 0.8% against the Euro with a poll being pro-stay, and it's swung the other way.

Pound Drops as New Brexit Poll Shows ‘Leave’ Camp Taking Lead

"The pound dropped after a new poll showed a jump in support for the campaign to take Britain out of the European Union, spooking some investors who had thought that the result was a foregone conclusion."

"The pound dropped 0.9 percent to $1.4511 as of 5:37 p.m. London time, the biggest drop since May 3. It weakened 0.9 percent to 76.79 pence per euro."

Come June 23rd, and people getting close to their holiday in Spain or Greece, how much more is it going to cost them?

The market likes certainty. With a pro-EU decision, the markets have that certainty. Because .. of the familiarity of the status quo ... simply that.

With a UK forging new trading ties, in a wider market containing a wider scope of trading opportunities, the markets would respond very positively indeed to that ... once there was a proven case for prosperity.

As for the effect of June 23rd on holidaymakers going to Greece and Spain .. it's interesting to note that you've chosen two weak currencies. Consider the small, but highly unstable, economy of Greece. Small or not, some months ago it created crisis conditions within the EU as a whole. Greece got its bailout, yet may well default again in the future. What price continuing economic stability throughout the Eurozone, if that happens ? Spain is in a stronger position, yet not so very much stronger that she, too, may flounder someday.

'A chain is as strong as its weakest link'. Only as strong as Greece ? And .. you want to chain us to the entity that's having to carry such failing economies on its back ???

Better that we shake off such shackles, and man the lifeboats, in case the ship sinks, eh ?

What "new trading ties"????

The EU makes trade agreements that will have far more force than the UK could ever get. What is the UK going to get that will replace what the UK will lose from leaving the EU?

Do you know how much money the UK gets from EU trade agreements with those outside of the EU? Do you know how much money the UK gets from trading within the EU?

I looked at statistics (which I am unfortunately unable to find any more), and it showed that in the first two years of countries like Estonia, and all those who joined the EU in 2004, their trade with the UK increased up to 200%, and that withing 2 years. Why? Why would trade increase massively with the UK in this time? It's clear.

Stats are difficult, there are different interpretations of everything that could happen.

No UK trade benefit from EU membership - Civitas report - BBC News

Civitas says there's no benefit from being in the EU. I disagree with this. This "seems to contradict analysis by the Confederation of British Industry."

So, both sides will say their piece.

http://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default...nts/pdf/2014/pb_britishtrade_16jan14-8285.pdf

"If Britain were to leave the EU, it would face a difficult dilemma: having to negotiate access to the EU’s single market in exchange for continued adherence to its rules – or losing access in return for regulatory sovereignty that would be largely illusory."

Basically, the EU is about 50% of the UK's trade. The UK cannot afford to risk losing 50% of this trade. There's no way in hell the UK can make up this 50% of trade from outside the EU. You don't just go to Zimbabwe and say "hey, we're open and willing to deal, can you substitute for Spain?"

HM Revenue & Customs uktradeinfo - EU & Non-EU_Data

"Non-EU Exports for March 2016 were £12.9 billion. This remained unchanged compared with last month. There was a decrease of £3.6 billion (22 per cent) compared with March 2015."

"EU Exports for March 2016 were £12.0 billion. This was an increase of £0.6 billion (5.7 per cent) compared with last month, and a rise of £0.1 billion (0.6 per cent) compared with March 2015."

So, 12 billion to 12.9 billion for EU to non-EU trade per month. 12 billion pounds is a lot of money.

For example, if the pound lost 1% against the Euro, then that's 120 million pounds gone. That's 120 million a month. Make the pound lose 5% and that 600 million a month. 7.20 billion a year. And that's only in exports.

UK imports from the EU were 20 billion. 1% and the UK is paying an extra 200 million pounds. That's 320 million pounds a month. Make it 5% and that's 1.6 billion pounds a month, added to exports and that's 19.2 billion a year, added to the exports and that's 26.4 billion a year.

Then take into account the amount of trade the UK would actually lose from not being as competitive as those around them.

The EU costs the UK, what? About 6 billion a year. You would be willing to save 6 billion a year and risk losing 19.2 billion a year from a drop which is very close to what we saw yesterday from a poll saying leave was in the lead, or risk losing 26.4 billion a year if it goes to 5%, or you can do the maths based on this for other percentages.

Add in the costs of potentially losing money from not being part of EU trade deals and having to make their own (yes, I know you probably think that UK politicians are the best in the world, but clearly they're not, as the Germans and French are leading the EU) so, the UK going out to make those trade deals, with less power behind them, less chance of such a good deal, and you're losing even more money.

And the EU will still need those same goods when the UK leaves, that is if it leaves. Trade is a two way street and the EU will lose an outlet for its goods as well, meaning that they will have to negotiate a new policy. Already it is said to reduce the cost of white goods in the UK because we will no longer pay the EU levy on them. We will also be able to buy appliances that work and not underrated underpowered toys that meet EU approval on efficiency. ( how would you like a Ford Mustang powered by a single cylinder moped engine ) So in a nutshell we can set our own prices, so undercutting EU manufacturers. The EU will still need our products until they can get the East to produce the goods they are in need of. Just as the US need the UK to offload its goods on

Yes it will. But then some EU companies might see that they can sell those same products for cheaper within the EU, and become successful while UK companies are struggling to be competitive.

Trade is a 2 way street. HOWEVER, like I've said, in 2004 when 8 countries joined the EU, the trade with those 8 countries increased, and with a few it was over 200% in two years. These products weren't being sold to these countries before this, then the open borders and ease of trade made these products viable in their markets.

Having a simplistic view on trade, which the Brexit people seem to think won't change anything, or at least this is what they're trying to portray is extremely naive.

 

[frigidweirdo]

 

[montelatici]

I state fact. You have been found out. Shut up while you're ahead instead of projecting, you ignorant piece of crap.

Disagreed. You post false accusations and insults just like the post your post quoted above.

You obviously have personal issues and, given your abusive behavior, I fail to see how you have anything of substance to offer.

You only offer propaganda, tinged with racism as spewed by "anglo-saxon" media. You claimed that Italy's finances were somehow more precarious than the norm in developed economies. I provided facts that demonstrate that Italy's annual deficit and total debt (personal and public) is lower than that of most developed economies.

When you had nothing else to back up your racist denigration of Italy based on current economics, you brought up Fascism and WW II as a deflection technique.

You are so transparent.

 

[Divine Wind]

But the power mongers will succeed if the UK remains, too. Maybe - MAYBE - we can stall their effort for a limited time, but not forever. We only have one vote amongst a couple of dozen others, after all !!

And at the end of it, we'll be at the tender mercy of a foreign colossus which, as I said, serves ITS interests, not ours.

Consider.The EEC began as mere trading bloc. Then the power-freaks moved in, created the EU, bound Member States into treaty obligations to the EU, these conferring power to the European Parliament - a Parliament that didn't exist under the old setup.

How 'successful' has the UK been in stopping any of this ? Answer ... Gordon Brown SIGNED US UP to the Lisbon Treaty !!

We have a chance to undo this wreckage on 23rd June, and reclaim what is ours by right ... the right to GOVERN OURSELVES.

You say that neither the Tories nor Labour are interested in the concerns of the ordinary citizen ? I can agree that this is true of Labour, who actually forbade us from having a Referendum. Though the Conservatives may - some of them - be pushing hard for continued membership, nonetheless, if it weren't for them, we'd have no Referendum ! I call that .... LISTENING ! Considering the ordinary citizen, not ignoring him.

Being out of the EU is very definitely the best of one specific thing. The chance to regain our political autonomy !!

The UK "only has one vote amongst a couple of dozen others", yeah, and so do those who want the EU to be a superstate, don't they? But they've managed to actually do something.

The EU has plenty of Euroskeptics, and if the UK could bring them together, they'd find they have a powerful body.

Again, the UK is a can't do country.

So, consider the EU as it used to be, and the Brits say this is the sort of thing they want, and they don't try and make it happen.

Did you see the pound dropped again? It rose 0.4% against the dollar and 0.8% against the Euro with a poll being pro-stay, and it's swung the other way.

Pound Drops as New Brexit Poll Shows ‘Leave’ Camp Taking Lead

"The pound dropped after a new poll showed a jump in support for the campaign to take Britain out of the European Union, spooking some investors who had thought that the result was a foregone conclusion."

"The pound dropped 0.9 percent to $1.4511 as of 5:37 p.m. London time, the biggest drop since May 3. It weakened 0.9 percent to 76.79 pence per euro."

Come June 23rd, and people getting close to their holiday in Spain or Greece, how much more is it going to cost them?

The market likes certainty. With a pro-EU decision, the markets have that certainty. Because .. of the familiarity of the status quo ... simply that.

With a UK forging new trading ties, in a wider market containing a wider scope of trading opportunities, the markets would respond very positively indeed to that ... once there was a proven case for prosperity.

As for the effect of June 23rd on holidaymakers going to Greece and Spain .. it's interesting to note that you've chosen two weak currencies. Consider the small, but highly unstable, economy of Greece. Small or not, some months ago it created crisis conditions within the EU as a whole. Greece got its bailout, yet may well default again in the future. What price continuing economic stability throughout the Eurozone, if that happens ? Spain is in a stronger position, yet not so very much stronger that she, too, may flounder someday.

'A chain is as strong as its weakest link'. Only as strong as Greece ? And .. you want to chain us to the entity that's having to carry such failing economies on its back ???

Better that we shake off such shackles, and man the lifeboats, in case the ship sinks, eh ?

What "new trading ties"????

The EU makes trade agreements that will have far more force than the UK could ever get. What is the UK going to get that will replace what the UK will lose from leaving the EU?

Do you know how much money the UK gets from EU trade agreements with those outside of the EU? Do you know how much money the UK gets from trading within the EU?

I looked at statistics (which I am unfortunately unable to find any more), and it showed that in the first two years of countries like Estonia, and all those who joined the EU in 2004, their trade with the UK increased up to 200%, and that withing 2 years. Why? Why would trade increase massively with the UK in this time? It's clear.

Stats are difficult, there are different interpretations of everything that could happen.

No UK trade benefit from EU membership - Civitas report - BBC News

Civitas says there's no benefit from being in the EU. I disagree with this. This "seems to contradict analysis by the Confederation of British Industry."

So, both sides will say their piece.

http://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default...nts/pdf/2014/pb_britishtrade_16jan14-8285.pdf

"If Britain were to leave the EU, it would face a difficult dilemma: having to negotiate access to the EU’s single market in exchange for continued adherence to its rules – or losing access in return for regulatory sovereignty that would be largely illusory."

Basically, the EU is about 50% of the UK's trade. The UK cannot afford to risk losing 50% of this trade. There's no way in hell the UK can make up this 50% of trade from outside the EU. You don't just go to Zimbabwe and say "hey, we're open and willing to deal, can you substitute for Spain?"

HM Revenue & Customs uktradeinfo - EU & Non-EU_Data

"Non-EU Exports for March 2016 were £12.9 billion. This remained unchanged compared with last month. There was a decrease of £3.6 billion (22 per cent) compared with March 2015."

"EU Exports for March 2016 were £12.0 billion. This was an increase of £0.6 billion (5.7 per cent) compared with last month, and a rise of £0.1 billion (0.6 per cent) compared with March 2015."

So, 12 billion to 12.9 billion for EU to non-EU trade per month. 12 billion pounds is a lot of money.

For example, if the pound lost 1% against the Euro, then that's 120 million pounds gone. That's 120 million a month. Make the pound lose 5% and that 600 million a month. 7.20 billion a year. And that's only in exports.

UK imports from the EU were 20 billion. 1% and the UK is paying an extra 200 million pounds. That's 320 million pounds a month. Make it 5% and that's 1.6 billion pounds a month, added to exports and that's 19.2 billion a year, added to the exports and that's 26.4 billion a year.

Then take into account the amount of trade the UK would actually lose from not being as competitive as those around them.

The EU costs the UK, what? About 6 billion a year. You would be willing to save 6 billion a year and risk losing 19.2 billion a year from a drop which is very close to what we saw yesterday from a poll saying leave was in the lead, or risk losing 26.4 billion a year if it goes to 5%, or you can do the maths based on this for other percentages.

Add in the costs of potentially losing money from not being part of EU trade deals and having to make their own (yes, I know you probably think that UK politicians are the best in the world, but clearly they're not, as the Germans and French are leading the EU) so, the UK going out to make those trade deals, with less power behind them, less chance of such a good deal, and you're losing even more money.

And the EU will still need those same goods when the UK leaves, that is if it leaves. Trade is a two way street and the EU will lose an outlet for its goods as well, meaning that they will have to negotiate a new policy. Already it is said to reduce the cost of white goods in the UK because we will no longer pay the EU levy on them. We will also be able to buy appliances that work and not underrated underpowered toys that meet EU approval on efficiency. ( how would you like a Ford Mustang powered by a single cylinder moped engine ) So in a nutshell we can set our own prices, so undercutting EU manufacturers. The EU will still need our products until they can get the East to produce the goods they are in need of. Just as the US need the UK to offload its goods on

Yes it will. But then some EU companies might see that they can sell those same products for cheaper within the EU, and become successful while UK companies are struggling to be competitive.

Trade is a 2 way street. HOWEVER, like I've said, in 2004 when 8 countries joined the EU, the trade with those 8 countries increased, and with a few it was over 200% in two years. These products weren't being sold to these countries before this, then the open borders and ease of trade made these products viable in their markets.

Having a simplistic view on trade, which the Brexit people seem to think won't change anything, or at least this is what they're trying to portray is extremely naive.

A Brexit would lead to an exit of Germany and other nations seeking to shed the anchors of Greece, Italy and other less-responsible nations in the EU.

A collapse of the EU is good for America.

 

[HenryBHough]

One of them rich fellas from Italy came here for the fishing this week.

Stopped by the shop to buy some bait and to borrow a drill for a few minutes.

He took out a bunch of those Euro coins and drilled a hole in each one.

Says he uses 'em instead of led weights. Says they're lighter to carry that what he used to use but, even though not as heavy as lead sinkers they somehow always to go down faster.

 

[Drummond]

What possible freedom do we have for trying to implement any 'plan', for as long as the EU dictates to us ?? We DO NOT HAVE THE FREEDOM to actively plan, as yet. No doubt if we tried, the EU would try to punish us for it ...

Besides, in general terms, it's obvious. One, IF the conditions are favourable enough, we can continue to trade with EU countries. However, we have yet to see how nasty Member States would want to be, how they'd try to punish us, if we successfully obtained our freedom.

The extent of such spiteful activity would determine the extent of our trade with others. It's not as though the rest of the world doesn't exist .. it does. We can, two, trade with it, determining OUR terms for doing so. BUT, only if we're shot of the EU !!

 

[montelatici]

One of them rich fellas from Italy came here for the fishing this week.

Stopped by the shop to buy some bait and to borrow a drill for a few minutes.

He took out a bunch of those Euro coins and drilled a hole in each one.

Says he uses 'em instead of led weights. Says they're lighter to carry that what he used to use but, even though not as heavy as lead sinkers they somehow always to go down faster.

Hmm. 1 euro is worth 1.12 USD. Wonder what that was all about?

 

[frigidweirdo]

The UK "only has one vote amongst a couple of dozen others", yeah, and so do those who want the EU to be a superstate, don't they? But they've managed to actually do something.

The EU has plenty of Euroskeptics, and if the UK could bring them together, they'd find they have a powerful body.

Again, the UK is a can't do country.

So, consider the EU as it used to be, and the Brits say this is the sort of thing they want, and they don't try and make it happen.

Did you see the pound dropped again? It rose 0.4% against the dollar and 0.8% against the Euro with a poll being pro-stay, and it's swung the other way.

Pound Drops as New Brexit Poll Shows ‘Leave’ Camp Taking Lead

"The pound dropped after a new poll showed a jump in support for the campaign to take Britain out of the European Union, spooking some investors who had thought that the result was a foregone conclusion."

"The pound dropped 0.9 percent to $1.4511 as of 5:37 p.m. London time, the biggest drop since May 3. It weakened 0.9 percent to 76.79 pence per euro."

Come June 23rd, and people getting close to their holiday in Spain or Greece, how much more is it going to cost them?

The market likes certainty. With a pro-EU decision, the markets have that certainty. Because .. of the familiarity of the status quo ... simply that.

With a UK forging new trading ties, in a wider market containing a wider scope of trading opportunities, the markets would respond very positively indeed to that ... once there was a proven case for prosperity.

As for the effect of June 23rd on holidaymakers going to Greece and Spain .. it's interesting to note that you've chosen two weak currencies. Consider the small, but highly unstable, economy of Greece. Small or not, some months ago it created crisis conditions within the EU as a whole. Greece got its bailout, yet may well default again in the future. What price continuing economic stability throughout the Eurozone, if that happens ? Spain is in a stronger position, yet not so very much stronger that she, too, may flounder someday.

'A chain is as strong as its weakest link'. Only as strong as Greece ? And .. you want to chain us to the entity that's having to carry such failing economies on its back ???

Better that we shake off such shackles, and man the lifeboats, in case the ship sinks, eh ?

What "new trading ties"????

The EU makes trade agreements that will have far more force than the UK could ever get. What is the UK going to get that will replace what the UK will lose from leaving the EU?

Do you know how much money the UK gets from EU trade agreements with those outside of the EU? Do you know how much money the UK gets from trading within the EU?

I looked at statistics (which I am unfortunately unable to find any more), and it showed that in the first two years of countries like Estonia, and all those who joined the EU in 2004, their trade with the UK increased up to 200%, and that withing 2 years. Why? Why would trade increase massively with the UK in this time? It's clear.

Stats are difficult, there are different interpretations of everything that could happen.

No UK trade benefit from EU membership - Civitas report - BBC News

Civitas says there's no benefit from being in the EU. I disagree with this. This "seems to contradict analysis by the Confederation of British Industry."

So, both sides will say their piece.

http://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default...nts/pdf/2014/pb_britishtrade_16jan14-8285.pdf

"If Britain were to leave the EU, it would face a difficult dilemma: having to negotiate access to the EU’s single market in exchange for continued adherence to its rules – or losing access in return for regulatory sovereignty that would be largely illusory."

Basically, the EU is about 50% of the UK's trade. The UK cannot afford to risk losing 50% of this trade. There's no way in hell the UK can make up this 50% of trade from outside the EU. You don't just go to Zimbabwe and say "hey, we're open and willing to deal, can you substitute for Spain?"

HM Revenue & Customs uktradeinfo - EU & Non-EU_Data

"Non-EU Exports for March 2016 were £12.9 billion. This remained unchanged compared with last month. There was a decrease of £3.6 billion (22 per cent) compared with March 2015."

"EU Exports for March 2016 were £12.0 billion. This was an increase of £0.6 billion (5.7 per cent) compared with last month, and a rise of £0.1 billion (0.6 per cent) compared with March 2015."

So, 12 billion to 12.9 billion for EU to non-EU trade per month. 12 billion pounds is a lot of money.

For example, if the pound lost 1% against the Euro, then that's 120 million pounds gone. That's 120 million a month. Make the pound lose 5% and that 600 million a month. 7.20 billion a year. And that's only in exports.

UK imports from the EU were 20 billion. 1% and the UK is paying an extra 200 million pounds. That's 320 million pounds a month. Make it 5% and that's 1.6 billion pounds a month, added to exports and that's 19.2 billion a year, added to the exports and that's 26.4 billion a year.

Then take into account the amount of trade the UK would actually lose from not being as competitive as those around them.

The EU costs the UK, what? About 6 billion a year. You would be willing to save 6 billion a year and risk losing 19.2 billion a year from a drop which is very close to what we saw yesterday from a poll saying leave was in the lead, or risk losing 26.4 billion a year if it goes to 5%, or you can do the maths based on this for other percentages.

Add in the costs of potentially losing money from not being part of EU trade deals and having to make their own (yes, I know you probably think that UK politicians are the best in the world, but clearly they're not, as the Germans and French are leading the EU) so, the UK going out to make those trade deals, with less power behind them, less chance of such a good deal, and you're losing even more money.

And the EU will still need those same goods when the UK leaves, that is if it leaves. Trade is a two way street and the EU will lose an outlet for its goods as well, meaning that they will have to negotiate a new policy. Already it is said to reduce the cost of white goods in the UK because we will no longer pay the EU levy on them. We will also be able to buy appliances that work and not underrated underpowered toys that meet EU approval on efficiency. ( how would you like a Ford Mustang powered by a single cylinder moped engine ) So in a nutshell we can set our own prices, so undercutting EU manufacturers. The EU will still need our products until they can get the East to produce the goods they are in need of. Just as the US need the UK to offload its goods on

Yes it will. But then some EU companies might see that they can sell those same products for cheaper within the EU, and become successful while UK companies are struggling to be competitive.

Trade is a 2 way street. HOWEVER, like I've said, in 2004 when 8 countries joined the EU, the trade with those 8 countries increased, and with a few it was over 200% in two years. These products weren't being sold to these countries before this, then the open borders and ease of trade made these products viable in their markets.

Having a simplistic view on trade, which the Brexit people seem to think won't change anything, or at least this is what they're trying to portray is extremely naive.

A Brexit would lead to an exit of Germany and other nations seeking to shed the anchors of Greece, Italy and other less-responsible nations in the EU.

A collapse of the EU is good for America.

It wouldn't, and it isn't.

 

[Divine Wind]

It wouldn't, and it isn't.

Time will tell, won't it?

 

[montelatici]

The UK "only has one vote amongst a couple of dozen others", yeah, and so do those who want the EU to be a superstate, don't they? But they've managed to actually do something.

The EU has plenty of Euroskeptics, and if the UK could bring them together, they'd find they have a powerful body.

Again, the UK is a can't do country.

So, consider the EU as it used to be, and the Brits say this is the sort of thing they want, and they don't try and make it happen.

Did you see the pound dropped again? It rose 0.4% against the dollar and 0.8% against the Euro with a poll being pro-stay, and it's swung the other way.

Pound Drops as New Brexit Poll Shows ‘Leave’ Camp Taking Lead

"The pound dropped after a new poll showed a jump in support for the campaign to take Britain out of the European Union, spooking some investors who had thought that the result was a foregone conclusion."

"The pound dropped 0.9 percent to $1.4511 as of 5:37 p.m. London time, the biggest drop since May 3. It weakened 0.9 percent to 76.79 pence per euro."

Come June 23rd, and people getting close to their holiday in Spain or Greece, how much more is it going to cost them?

The market likes certainty. With a pro-EU decision, the markets have that certainty. Because .. of the familiarity of the status quo ... simply that.

With a UK forging new trading ties, in a wider market containing a wider scope of trading opportunities, the markets would respond very positively indeed to that ... once there was a proven case for prosperity.

As for the effect of June 23rd on holidaymakers going to Greece and Spain .. it's interesting to note that you've chosen two weak currencies. Consider the small, but highly unstable, economy of Greece. Small or not, some months ago it created crisis conditions within the EU as a whole. Greece got its bailout, yet may well default again in the future. What price continuing economic stability throughout the Eurozone, if that happens ? Spain is in a stronger position, yet not so very much stronger that she, too, may flounder someday.

'A chain is as strong as its weakest link'. Only as strong as Greece ? And .. you want to chain us to the entity that's having to carry such failing economies on its back ???

Better that we shake off such shackles, and man the lifeboats, in case the ship sinks, eh ?

What "new trading ties"????

The EU makes trade agreements that will have far more force than the UK could ever get. What is the UK going to get that will replace what the UK will lose from leaving the EU?

Do you know how much money the UK gets from EU trade agreements with those outside of the EU? Do you know how much money the UK gets from trading within the EU?

I looked at statistics (which I am unfortunately unable to find any more), and it showed that in the first two years of countries like Estonia, and all those who joined the EU in 2004, their trade with the UK increased up to 200%, and that withing 2 years. Why? Why would trade increase massively with the UK in this time? It's clear.

Stats are difficult, there are different interpretations of everything that could happen.

No UK trade benefit from EU membership - Civitas report - BBC News

Civitas says there's no benefit from being in the EU. I disagree with this. This "seems to contradict analysis by the Confederation of British Industry."

So, both sides will say their piece.

http://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default...nts/pdf/2014/pb_britishtrade_16jan14-8285.pdf

"If Britain were to leave the EU, it would face a difficult dilemma: having to negotiate access to the EU’s single market in exchange for continued adherence to its rules – or losing access in return for regulatory sovereignty that would be largely illusory."

Basically, the EU is about 50% of the UK's trade. The UK cannot afford to risk losing 50% of this trade. There's no way in hell the UK can make up this 50% of trade from outside the EU. You don't just go to Zimbabwe and say "hey, we're open and willing to deal, can you substitute for Spain?"

HM Revenue & Customs uktradeinfo - EU & Non-EU_Data

"Non-EU Exports for March 2016 were £12.9 billion. This remained unchanged compared with last month. There was a decrease of £3.6 billion (22 per cent) compared with March 2015."

"EU Exports for March 2016 were £12.0 billion. This was an increase of £0.6 billion (5.7 per cent) compared with last month, and a rise of £0.1 billion (0.6 per cent) compared with March 2015."

So, 12 billion to 12.9 billion for EU to non-EU trade per month. 12 billion pounds is a lot of money.

For example, if the pound lost 1% against the Euro, then that's 120 million pounds gone. That's 120 million a month. Make the pound lose 5% and that 600 million a month. 7.20 billion a year. And that's only in exports.

UK imports from the EU were 20 billion. 1% and the UK is paying an extra 200 million pounds. That's 320 million pounds a month. Make it 5% and that's 1.6 billion pounds a month, added to exports and that's 19.2 billion a year, added to the exports and that's 26.4 billion a year.

Then take into account the amount of trade the UK would actually lose from not being as competitive as those around them.

The EU costs the UK, what? About 6 billion a year. You would be willing to save 6 billion a year and risk losing 19.2 billion a year from a drop which is very close to what we saw yesterday from a poll saying leave was in the lead, or risk losing 26.4 billion a year if it goes to 5%, or you can do the maths based on this for other percentages.

Add in the costs of potentially losing money from not being part of EU trade deals and having to make their own (yes, I know you probably think that UK politicians are the best in the world, but clearly they're not, as the Germans and French are leading the EU) so, the UK going out to make those trade deals, with less power behind them, less chance of such a good deal, and you're losing even more money.

And the EU will still need those same goods when the UK leaves, that is if it leaves. Trade is a two way street and the EU will lose an outlet for its goods as well, meaning that they will have to negotiate a new policy. Already it is said to reduce the cost of white goods in the UK because we will no longer pay the EU levy on them. We will also be able to buy appliances that work and not underrated underpowered toys that meet EU approval on efficiency. ( how would you like a Ford Mustang powered by a single cylinder moped engine ) So in a nutshell we can set our own prices, so undercutting EU manufacturers. The EU will still need our products until they can get the East to produce the goods they are in need of. Just as the US need the UK to offload its goods on

Yes it will. But then some EU companies might see that they can sell those same products for cheaper within the EU, and become successful while UK companies are struggling to be competitive.

Trade is a 2 way street. HOWEVER, like I've said, in 2004 when 8 countries joined the EU, the trade with those 8 countries increased, and with a few it was over 200% in two years. These products weren't being sold to these countries before this, then the open borders and ease of trade made these products viable in their markets.

Having a simplistic view on trade, which the Brexit people seem to think won't change anything, or at least this is what they're trying to portray is extremely naive.

A Brexit would lead to an exit of Germany and other nations seeking to shed the anchors of Greece, Italy and other less-responsible nations in the EU.

A collapse of the EU is good for America.

With a British exit, the EU will gain Scotland and possibly Wales as members. The union, without England and Northern Ireland will seek to integrate further.


Germany and France were the most irresponsible but were not sanctioned.


"Back in 2003, both France and Germany were able to flout the conditions of the Stability and Growth Pact, after they ran budget deficits in excess of 3pc of their GDP. Both managed to avoid sanction after their fellow members decided to let them off the hook."


Why do France and Germany keep breaking EU rules?