Brexit busted.

[Divine Wind]

Yes, I totally agree. The EU needs reform. The problem is those who don't agree with the Euro superstate just shout "out" and don't try to change things. So how will there ever be change.

For the US, it was the American Civil War at a cost of 2% of the population. Before the war, we were a group of fairly strong and semi-autonomous states linked by a Constitution and a weak Federal government. After the war, the Feds were stronger than individual states.

The problem with the EU is like the UN, it has no teeth. It recommends, but can't demand. Countries like Greece, Italy and Spain can run a deficit and expect other EU nations to bail them out to protect the Euro yet those other nations have little power to demand more responsible spending.

 

[there4eyeM]

The E.U. has definitely gone about things bass ackwards on many counts. But, it is what it is and it's too late to start over from scratch.

It doesn't need to be started from scratch, just changed in various areas.

'Made over for England' is not the formula.

 

[montelatici]

Yes, I totally agree. The EU needs reform. The problem is those who don't agree with the Euro superstate just shout "out" and don't try to change things. So how will there ever be change.

For the US, it was the American Civil War at a cost of 2% of the population. Before the war, we were a group of fairly strong and semi-autonomous states linked by a Constitution and a weak Federal government. After the war, the Feds were stronger than individual states.

The problem with the EU is like the UN, it has no teeth. It recommends, but can't demand. Countries like Greece, Italy and Spain can run a deficit and expect other EU nations to bail them out to protect the Euro yet those other nations have little power to demand more responsible spending.

When has Italy ever been bailed out?

 

[Tilly]

Excellent.

Brexit immigration revolution! Boris and Gove pledge to bring in tough Australian- style points system to slash arrivals from EU and bar entry to migrants who do not speak English if UK votes Out

• Boris Johnson and Michael Gove have promised a points-style system
• They say a Brexit vote would pave the way for their immigration revolution
• If it passed, migrants could only settle in the UK if they had valued skills
• The pair, along with Priti Patel, have attacked David Cameron's record
• It would ensure all those who come had the ability to speak good English
• See more of the latest Brexit news at www.dailymail.co.uk/brexit

By JASON GROVES FOR THE DAILY MAIL

 

[Drummond]

Excellent.

Brexit immigration revolution! Boris and Gove pledge to bring in tough Australian- style points system to slash arrivals from EU and bar entry to migrants who do not speak English if UK votes Out

• Boris Johnson and Michael Gove have promised a points-style system
• They say a Brexit vote would pave the way for their immigration revolution
• If it passed, migrants could only settle in the UK if they had valued skills
• The pair, along with Priti Patel, have attacked David Cameron's record
• It would ensure all those who come had the ability to speak good English
• See more of the latest Brexit news at www.dailymail.co.uk/brexit

By JASON GROVES FOR THE DAILY MAIL

We definitely need this. WAY better than the 'porous borders' policy of the EU !!!

 

[montelatici]

I guess all the Brits working in the EU will have to make arrangements to keep their jobs in continental Europe. The current Dutch head of the Commission says the EU would have to impose similar laws/regulations vis-a-vis British workers in the EU.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

Its primitive politics. What they dont address is the number of UK ex-pats living in Europe. There are around 3m of them with the majority being pensioners.
So we get rid of healthy young people and will have to absorb 3m pensioners with their attendant health issues.
Where they will live is another matter as well ?
Its madness.

 

[Tilly]

Guardian Poll: Brexit Campaigners Take Lead After Hardline Immigration Messaging
285

Reuters

by SARKIS ZERONIAN1 Jun 201626


conducted for The Guardian by ICM shows voters favouring Brexit by 52 per cent to 48 per cent. Notably the result was the same regardless of whether respondents were surveyed online or by telephone.

Up to now telephone polling has tended to favour the Remain campaign, with only two such polls giving Leave the lead. That makes the result of the ICM phone poll all the more concerning for Britain Stronger In Europe because that method shows Leave gaining seven points to 52 per cent, and Remain down seven to 48 per cent.

The Guardian reports that the result using the online method is almost unchanged, but the change in result for phone polled respondents appears to identify a shift towards Brexit, despite what the paper describes as “a slew of warnings from the most senior members of the government about the economic risks of doing so.”

Commenting on the development, ICM Research director Martin Boon said:

“Our poll rather unhinges a few accepted orthodoxies. It is only one poll but, in a rather unexpected reverse of polling assumptions so far, both our phone poll and our online poll are consistent on both vote intentions and on the EU referendum

Guardian Poll: Brexit Campaigners Take Lead After Hardline Immigration Messaging

 

[Divine Wind]

When has Italy ever been bailed out?

Who is claiming that? Please don't let nationalistic pride get in the way of financial common sense.

Italy could trigger Europe’s next financial crisis
....In the current period of uncertainty, Italy — particularly its banks — appears to be the victim of the moment. The Italian banking index is down 18% this year, and Italy’s third-largest and most historically troubled bank, Monte dei Paschi, has lost 50% of its value during the same period. The most dramatic drops have taken place this week. The Italian stock market regulator has deemed it necessary to ban short selling on Monte dei Paschi stock in an attempt to prevent speculators from benefiting by driving it lower, yet it continues to fall.

As is so often the case with the markets, these actions are rooted in fact but with a layer of sentiment on top. Italy’s banks are indeed troubled; their non-performing loans amount to more than 200 billion euros (about $218 billion), and Monte dei Paschi had an extremely weak balance sheet long before a 2013 derivatives scandal dealt it another blow. But those non-performing loans have been growing ever since 2008, and that growth has slowed of late.

IMF warns of fresh financial crisis
....“The hardest hit banking systems within the euro area in February have been those of Greece, Italy and, to a lesser extent, Portugal, along with some large German banks, reflecting some or all of the following factors: structural problems of excess bank capacity, high levels of NPLs and poorly adapted business models.”


IMF homes on the eurozone's weakest link: Italy
....But the IMF is not talking so much about the UK as Italy and other countries in the eurozone periphery. Italy has propped up a forlorn bunch of regional banks that have done little to tackle loans that will never be repaid. Zombie businesses that spend all their spare cash on interest payments, denying them the funds for investment, litter the Italian manufacturing sector, which remains vast.

A clearout of bad loans would precipitate mass insolvencies among business customers that depend on cheap funding. Panic would ensue.

Italian banks might have the funds to manage the transition if the ECB could boost interest rates and help their profitability. As it is, the ECB has introduced negative deposit rates, which Italian banks must pay to keep funds with the ECB. This increases their costs and should be passed to customers for holding their money. Milan, Turin and Siena’s finest institutions have so far refused, squeezing their profit margins and putting their solvency in doubt

It is estimated that bad loans in Italy account for more than a third of the €900bn total, which means that a €6bn rescue fund put forward by Rome is desperately inadequate.

 

[montelatici]

When has Italy ever been bailed out?

Who is claiming that? Please don't let nationalistic pride get in the way of financial common sense.

Italy could trigger Europe’s next financial crisis
....In the current period of uncertainty, Italy — particularly its banks — appears to be the victim of the moment. The Italian banking index is down 18% this year, and Italy’s third-largest and most historically troubled bank, Monte dei Paschi, has lost 50% of its value during the same period. The most dramatic drops have taken place this week. The Italian stock market regulator has deemed it necessary to ban short selling on Monte dei Paschi stock in an attempt to prevent speculators from benefiting by driving it lower, yet it continues to fall.

As is so often the case with the markets, these actions are rooted in fact but with a layer of sentiment on top. Italy’s banks are indeed troubled; their non-performing loans amount to more than 200 billion euros (about $218 billion), and Monte dei Paschi had an extremely weak balance sheet long before a 2013 derivatives scandal dealt it another blow. But those non-performing loans have been growing ever since 2008, and that growth has slowed of late.

IMF warns of fresh financial crisis
....“The hardest hit banking systems within the euro area in February have been those of Greece, Italy and, to a lesser extent, Portugal, along with some large German banks, reflecting some or all of the following factors: structural problems of excess bank capacity, high levels of NPLs and poorly adapted business models.”


IMF homes on the eurozone's weakest link: Italy
....But the IMF is not talking so much about the UK as Italy and other countries in the eurozone periphery. Italy has propped up a forlorn bunch of regional banks that have done little to tackle loans that will never be repaid. Zombie businesses that spend all their spare cash on interest payments, denying them the funds for investment, litter the Italian manufacturing sector, which remains vast.

A clearout of bad loans would precipitate mass insolvencies among business customers that depend on cheap funding. Panic would ensue.

Italian banks might have the funds to manage the transition if the ECB could boost interest rates and help their profitability. As it is, the ECB has introduced negative deposit rates, which Italian banks must pay to keep funds with the ECB. This increases their costs and should be passed to customers for holding their money. Milan, Turin and Siena’s finest institutions have so far refused, squeezing their profit margins and putting their solvency in doubt

It is estimated that bad loans in Italy account for more than a third of the €900bn total, which means that a €6bn rescue fund put forward by Rome is desperately inadequate.

Again, when was Italy ever bailed out?

By the way.

"Italy has a budget deficit of only 4.1% of GDP and actually runs a primary budget surplus of 0.6% of GDP, on IMF data (the only European country to do so apart from Switzerland and Norway!).

• Total leverage in Italy (government and private) is below the Euro norm. This is
because very high levels of government debt (121% of GDP) are offset by low
private sector leverage (total private sector leverage is 125% of GDP — about half
the level of Spain and Portugal — because unlike most of the periphery there was no
housing or private sector credit boom in the last decade). Total non-financial
leverage in the economy is 246% of GDP (compared to 260% in the Euro-area
overall and 280% in the U.K.). "


The Truth About Italian Debt Levels

 

[Divine Wind]

Again, when was Italy ever bailed out?

Ahhh, I see you want to play word games. Okay. How about September 3rd, 1943?

 

[frigidweirdo]

The UK "only has one vote amongst a couple of dozen others", yeah, and so do those who want the EU to be a superstate, don't they? But they've managed to actually do something.

The EU has plenty of Euroskeptics, and if the UK could bring them together, they'd find they have a powerful body.

Again, the UK is a can't do country.

So, consider the EU as it used to be, and the Brits say this is the sort of thing they want, and they don't try and make it happen.

Did you see the pound dropped again? It rose 0.4% against the dollar and 0.8% against the Euro with a poll being pro-stay, and it's swung the other way.

Pound Drops as New Brexit Poll Shows ‘Leave’ Camp Taking Lead

"The pound dropped after a new poll showed a jump in support for the campaign to take Britain out of the European Union, spooking some investors who had thought that the result was a foregone conclusion."

"The pound dropped 0.9 percent to $1.4511 as of 5:37 p.m. London time, the biggest drop since May 3. It weakened 0.9 percent to 76.79 pence per euro."

Come June 23rd, and people getting close to their holiday in Spain or Greece, how much more is it going to cost them?

The market likes certainty. With a pro-EU decision, the markets have that certainty. Because .. of the familiarity of the status quo ... simply that.

With a UK forging new trading ties, in a wider market containing a wider scope of trading opportunities, the markets would respond very positively indeed to that ... once there was a proven case for prosperity.

As for the effect of June 23rd on holidaymakers going to Greece and Spain .. it's interesting to note that you've chosen two weak currencies. Consider the small, but highly unstable, economy of Greece. Small or not, some months ago it created crisis conditions within the EU as a whole. Greece got its bailout, yet may well default again in the future. What price continuing economic stability throughout the Eurozone, if that happens ? Spain is in a stronger position, yet not so very much stronger that she, too, may flounder someday.

'A chain is as strong as its weakest link'. Only as strong as Greece ? And .. you want to chain us to the entity that's having to carry such failing economies on its back ???

Better that we shake off such shackles, and man the lifeboats, in case the ship sinks, eh ?

What "new trading ties"????

The EU makes trade agreements that will have far more force than the UK could ever get. What is the UK going to get that will replace what the UK will lose from leaving the EU?

Do you know how much money the UK gets from EU trade agreements with those outside of the EU? Do you know how much money the UK gets from trading within the EU?

I looked at statistics (which I am unfortunately unable to find any more), and it showed that in the first two years of countries like Estonia, and all those who joined the EU in 2004, their trade with the UK increased up to 200%, and that withing 2 years. Why? Why would trade increase massively with the UK in this time? It's clear.

Stats are difficult, there are different interpretations of everything that could happen.

No UK trade benefit from EU membership - Civitas report - BBC News

Civitas says there's no benefit from being in the EU. I disagree with this. This "seems to contradict analysis by the Confederation of British Industry."

So, both sides will say their piece.

http://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default...nts/pdf/2014/pb_britishtrade_16jan14-8285.pdf

"If Britain were to leave the EU, it would face a difficult dilemma: having to negotiate access to the EU’s single market in exchange for continued adherence to its rules – or losing access in return for regulatory sovereignty that would be largely illusory."

Basically, the EU is about 50% of the UK's trade. The UK cannot afford to risk losing 50% of this trade. There's no way in hell the UK can make up this 50% of trade from outside the EU. You don't just go to Zimbabwe and say "hey, we're open and willing to deal, can you substitute for Spain?"

HM Revenue & Customs uktradeinfo - EU & Non-EU_Data

"Non-EU Exports for March 2016 were £12.9 billion. This remained unchanged compared with last month. There was a decrease of £3.6 billion (22 per cent) compared with March 2015."

"EU Exports for March 2016 were £12.0 billion. This was an increase of £0.6 billion (5.7 per cent) compared with last month, and a rise of £0.1 billion (0.6 per cent) compared with March 2015."

So, 12 billion to 12.9 billion for EU to non-EU trade per month. 12 billion pounds is a lot of money.

For example, if the pound lost 1% against the Euro, then that's 120 million pounds gone. That's 120 million a month. Make the pound lose 5% and that 600 million a month. 7.20 billion a year. And that's only in exports.

UK imports from the EU were 20 billion. 1% and the UK is paying an extra 200 million pounds. That's 320 million pounds a month. Make it 5% and that's 1.6 billion pounds a month, added to exports and that's 19.2 billion a year, added to the exports and that's 26.4 billion a year.

Then take into account the amount of trade the UK would actually lose from not being as competitive as those around them.

The EU costs the UK, what? About 6 billion a year. You would be willing to save 6 billion a year and risk losing 19.2 billion a year from a drop which is very close to what we saw yesterday from a poll saying leave was in the lead, or risk losing 26.4 billion a year if it goes to 5%, or you can do the maths based on this for other percentages.

Add in the costs of potentially losing money from not being part of EU trade deals and having to make their own (yes, I know you probably think that UK politicians are the best in the world, but clearly they're not, as the Germans and French are leading the EU) so, the UK going out to make those trade deals, with less power behind them, less chance of such a good deal, and you're losing even more money.

You ask 'What new trading ties ?'. I answer ... any and all that are available to us from any part of the world we, and they, want to see trade with us. Since we're not yet in the reality that sees us have the range of freedom for that, naturally, being specific is difficult at absolute best !! Nonetheless ... there IS a world outside of the EU (.. yes, really !) .. and we're fools to continue to stunt our ability and willingness to trade with it.

For all of your statistics, one central point seems to be completely escaping you. This is that the EU is essentially a house of cards, one fragile enough to be threatened by a very weak economy, one fragile enough to collapse entirely, should more such economies create a 'domino effect' of needed bailout funding.

If you think that this fragility, this 'house of cards' effect, is fiction .... consider .....

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/business/international/greece-debt-crisis-euro.html?_r=0

At the height of the debt crisis a few years ago, many experts worried that Greece’s problems would spill over to the rest of the world. If Greece defaulted on its debt and exited the eurozone, they argued, it might create global financial shocks bigger than the collapse of Lehman Brothers did.

Now, however, some people believe that if Greece were to leave the currency union, in what is known as a “Grexit,” it would not be such a catastrophe. Europe has put up safeguards to limit the so-called financial contagion, in an effort to keep the problems from spreading to other countries. Greece, just a tiny part of the eurozone economy, could regain financial autonomy by leaving, these people contend — and the eurozone would actually be better off without a country that seems to constantly need its neighbors’ support.

Greece does hold some leverage, however. European leaders are keen to avoid a new Greek crisis before a British referendum on membership to the European Union in June ....

Quite. It simply 'wouldn't do' to have the EU experiencing a stability crisis, just when the UK was due to vote on continuing membership, now, would it ??

As this link said ... Greece is 'just a tiny part of the eurozone economy' ... and just look at the consternation its difficulties have been responsible for !! Now .. I think that the Eurozone (with difficulty) could've absorbed the consequences of a 'Grexit' and survived. How about Spain, though, or Portugal ... also weaker economies, but larger ones, ALSO a part of the Eurozone ?

As I've already posted ... a chain is only as strong as its WEAKEST link. Which is true. Apply that to the 'Eurozone', and ask .... how fragile is it, REALLY ... and what massive harm to the EU as a whole would be suffered from its collapse ??

People such as yourself would very happily see us signed up to the chaos and ruination that a suffering EU would inflict !!

However ... there's a solution. We chuck the EU entirely, and separate ourselves from contagion coming from an EU meltdown ... something that would hit us massively harder if we're tied into the EU, than if we're not.

Will the UK be a lifeboat able to sail away from a sinking ship ... or ... will it be irremediably tied to that sinking ship ?? We can decide our fate on 23rd June !!

What happened to Greece, and the shockwaves it created throughout the EU, was no fiction. The difficulties Greece poses, just Greece itself (!) .. have NOT gone away. Future bailouts ... can they be afforded ? What would that do to the stock markets ? How big a burden, directly OR indirectly, would future bailouts foist upon the UK, a political entity THAT NOW HAS ITS CHANCE OF ESCAPING IT ALL ??

How many trading ties does the UK not have that are potential trading ties?

How much will these potential trading ties the UK isn't making use bring in compared to how much the UK might lose?

The UK trades 50%, more or less (it fluctuates and the EU trade is increasing as the recession weakens) outside of the EU. That's quite a bit. But also shows that we are already making the most of these trading ties. New ones?

How weak is the EU? Weaker than these trading partners you want from outside of the EU? Zimbabwe? Er... I went 2 years ago, got dropped off outside some small town, went to the town, took money out. Now the banks have massive queues.

Which countries are more stable than those in the EU? The US? They CAUSED the major recession. China? Recession coming on. Japan? They've been through recessions in the past and their economy is weakening.
ALL ECONOMIES are weak inherently. The UK has to trade with countries who could end up in a recession in 6 months, just as the UK is also weak. It's the nature of the world.

The EU has Greece (shouldn't have been allowed into the Euro), Spain and Portugal who have a fragile state of things. BUT the Euroskeptics who everyone is listening to, have been saying the Euro would collapse in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 and it's still not collapsed in 2016, has it?

People such as myself understand the reality of the EU, both the good and the bad, and there's a lot of bad. Trust me. I lived in Spain and one Spanish guy was advocating for a EU superstate. I told he why he was wrong. This was a long time ago. But things probably haven't changed.

Noting that the Euro hasn't collapsed, says nothing about its immunity (.. supposed ..) from future collapse. I repeat .. a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Any future financial crisis, emanating from the EU or not, WILL hit weak economies hard. The EU certainly 'has its share' of those, and, each and every one of them will drag the EU, and the Eurozone, into spiralling weakness or outright collapse -- if any such crisis is bad enough.

The events of 2008 show us that this is no cloud-cuckooland fiction. The possibility is all too real. The EU, and its Eurozone, is a 'house of cards' structure, NOT immune to outright failure.

If the UK trades outside of the EU, having got shot of it ... it does so on a standalone basis with foreign economy after foreign economy, and can adjust its trading preferences on a case-by-case basis. Do we have these same freedoms, courtesy of EU bureaucracy and outright dictatorship OR, are we tied into this 'house of cards' structure, as my example of a tethered lifeboat illustrated ?

Consider: the EU is a combined structure of many Member States. These economies have varying capacities for strength, and varying capacities to weather financial storms. A weak economy forming a part of the EU, cannot help but exert a 'dragging' effect on ALL of the EU members ... can it ? And, can the EU as a whole cope at all well with any of it ?

There's one way to find out. Remain a member of the EU, see a crisis develop, and hope against hope that survival is on the cards ('house of', or otherwise).

Perhaps prayers would help ... ?

No, I didn't say that noting that the Euro has collapsed says anything about its stability. It says more about those who predict it's doom. They wanted the Euro to fail, and they've been talking about it's failure every year since I don't know when.

Yep, weak economies get hurt hard. That is why the EU has put a lot of effort into spending money in these countries to try and make it easier for them to survive. Their biggest problem was Greece, simply because the Greeks are really corrupt. In Spain the improvements were visible. The region I lived in first had no highway when I lived there. I went back at Easter last year to visit someone, and I didn't recognize the journey to or from there because it was all done much, much quicker on flat highways, rather than bumpy single roads stuck behind trucks.

This can help. Spain's economy is still based massively on tourism and gets hit massively when people cut back on going abroad for holidays. However it's picking up this year because Egypt, Tunisia etc are places people don't want to go to.

Yes, if the UK leaves it can deal with non-EU countries as it chooses to. This doesn't mean it will be better. It will just be different.

Greece is a drag on the EU, and what is a drag on the UK? Should the UK get rid of parts it doesn't feel are convenient? But the UK isn't in the Euro, so what's the problem?

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes, I totally agree. The EU needs reform. The problem is those who don't agree with the Euro superstate just shout "out" and don't try to change things. So how will there ever be change.

For the US, it was the American Civil War at a cost of 2% of the population. Before the war, we were a group of fairly strong and semi-autonomous states linked by a Constitution and a weak Federal government. After the war, the Feds were stronger than individual states.

The problem with the EU is like the UN, it has no teeth. It recommends, but can't demand. Countries like Greece, Italy and Spain can run a deficit and expect other EU nations to bail them out to protect the Euro yet those other nations have little power to demand more responsible spending.

Then the UK could simply not do things it doesn't want to either.

 

[Divine Wind]

Yes, I totally agree. The EU needs reform. The problem is those who don't agree with the Euro superstate just shout "out" and don't try to change things. So how will there ever be change.

For the US, it was the American Civil War at a cost of 2% of the population. Before the war, we were a group of fairly strong and semi-autonomous states linked by a Constitution and a weak Federal government. After the war, the Feds were stronger than individual states.

The problem with the EU is like the UN, it has no teeth. It recommends, but can't demand. Countries like Greece, Italy and Spain can run a deficit and expect other EU nations to bail them out to protect the Euro yet those other nations have little power to demand more responsible spending.

Then the UK could simply not do things it doesn't want to either.

Correct. The problem, of course, is when responsible nations continually need to pick up the tab for irresponsible nations.

 

[frigidweirdo]

The E.U. has definitely gone about things bass ackwards on many counts. But, it is what it is and it's too late to start over from scratch.

It doesn't need to be started from scratch, just changed in various areas.

'Made over for England' is not the formula.

Made over for the people of the EU. Many of whom don't want an EU superstate.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes, I totally agree. The EU needs reform. The problem is those who don't agree with the Euro superstate just shout "out" and don't try to change things. So how will there ever be change.

For the US, it was the American Civil War at a cost of 2% of the population. Before the war, we were a group of fairly strong and semi-autonomous states linked by a Constitution and a weak Federal government. After the war, the Feds were stronger than individual states.

The problem with the EU is like the UN, it has no teeth. It recommends, but can't demand. Countries like Greece, Italy and Spain can run a deficit and expect other EU nations to bail them out to protect the Euro yet those other nations have little power to demand more responsible spending.

Then the UK could simply not do things it doesn't want to either.

Correct. The problem, of course, is when responsible nations continually need to pick up the tab for irresponsible nations.

Of course. Greece should never have been allowed in the Euro. But still, the UK is not in the Euro.

 

[Divine Wind]

The E.U. has definitely gone about things bass ackwards on many counts. But, it is what it is and it's too late to start over from scratch.

It doesn't need to be started from scratch, just changed in various areas.

'Made over for England' is not the formula.

Made over for the people of the EU. Many of whom don't want an EU superstate.

I fully support collapsing the EU. It eliminates a major competitor in the global market allowing us to better focus on China.

 

[frigidweirdo]

The E.U. has definitely gone about things bass ackwards on many counts. But, it is what it is and it's too late to start over from scratch.

It doesn't need to be started from scratch, just changed in various areas.

'Made over for England' is not the formula.

Made over for the people of the EU. Many of whom don't want an EU superstate.

I fully support collapsing the EU. It eliminates a major competitor in the global market allowing us to better focus on China.

The EU is the US's biggest ally.

China, population 1.3 billion.

USA, population 300 million.
EU, population 500 million.

Together they don't have the population of China. For now, it's okay. Chinese military spending will be on par with The US's in about 20 years time. After that.... well.... you're going to need all the friends you can get.

 

[Divine Wind]

The E.U. has definitely gone about things bass ackwards on many counts. But, it is what it is and it's too late to start over from scratch.

It doesn't need to be started from scratch, just changed in various areas.

'Made over for England' is not the formula.

Made over for the people of the EU. Many of whom don't want an EU superstate.

I fully support collapsing the EU. It eliminates a major competitor in the global market allowing us to better focus on China.

The EU is the US's biggest ally.

China, population 1.3 billion.

USA, population 300 million.
EU, population 500 million.

Together they don't have the population of China. For now, it's okay. Chinese military spending will be on par with The US's in about 20 years time. After that.... well.... you're going to need all the friends you can get.

Uhhh, are you bitching because I agreed with you about collapsing the EU?

 

[frigidweirdo]

Excellent.

Brexit immigration revolution! Boris and Gove pledge to bring in tough Australian- style points system to slash arrivals from EU and bar entry to migrants who do not speak English if UK votes Out

• Boris Johnson and Michael Gove have promised a points-style system
• They say a Brexit vote would pave the way for their immigration revolution
• If it passed, migrants could only settle in the UK if they had valued skills
• The pair, along with Priti Patel, have attacked David Cameron's record
• It would ensure all those who come had the ability to speak good English
• See more of the latest Brexit news at www.dailymail.co.uk/brexit

By JASON GROVES FOR THE DAILY MAIL

And neither of them is in control of a party. So they "propose" something, but can't implement it. They don't know the impact of it, they just say it because it sounds good.

Before it was "the Norway option", then they realized that Norway was in the Schengen Zone, woopsie. Now they're after the "Australian option".

Whatever sounds good goes.

When will they start talking about FACTS?