Brexit busted.

[Phoenall]

What possible freedom do we have for trying to implement any 'plan', for as long as the EU dictates to us ?? We DO NOT HAVE THE FREEDOM to actively plan, as yet. No doubt if we tried, the EU would try to punish us for it ...

Besides, in general terms, it's obvious. One, IF the conditions are favourable enough, we can continue to trade with EU countries. However, we have yet to see how nasty Member States would want to be, how they'd try to punish us, if we successfully obtained our freedom.

The extent of such spiteful activity would determine the extent of our trade with others. It's not as though the rest of the world doesn't exist .. it does. We can, two, trade with it, determining OUR terms for doing so. BUT, only if we're shot of the EU !!

It's a leaving plan. What freedom do you have to make a leaving plan? Quite a lot.

However, if you're suggesting that the Brexit people can't make a leaving plan because they have no idea what the EU is going to do afterwards, you might be right, and it's also a reason why people should seriously be looking at the possibilities.

The Brexit people act like the UK is just going to make trade agreements that are equal to or better than what exists now. Chances are this isn't going to happen. People need to know this.

IF conditions are favorable enough, the UK won't lose half its trade. Wow, that's.... that's...... like jumping off a really high waterfall and hoping to do a perfect 10 dive, chances of survival? 1%.

Yes, spiteful activity. What reason does the EU have to want the UK to do well out of leaving the EU? None. There's no positive for them. They want to see the UK rot, and show all the other countries what happens if you leave the UK. The UK will be the example.

And you want to leave knowing you could lose a lot of trade, causing massive unemployment and problems? You want this?

I've thanked your last post, and for good reason. You've done a lot to acknowledge the true, pernicious, nature of the EU.

'THEY WANT TO SEE THE UK ROT'. H'm. Ever heard of the saying 'With friends like that, who needs enemies' .. ? You concede yourself the malevolent side of EU thinking ... and you insist that we must STILL want to be a part of it ???

Incredible.

Some of us don't want to live our lives ruled, dominated, by foreigners who are perfectly happy to hate our guts, if they find we don't behave as THEY choose us to !!! And I get from your wording that they will happily seize on an opportunity to 'make an example of us', for stepping out of line ? Rather like the Mafia might ... ?

National pride. Seems to me that we have our opportunity to reclaim it, to re-acquaint ourselves with some understanding and experience of some self-respect !! Getting shot of the likes of the EU will serve that aim nicely, it seems to me.

Thank you for making my case for me.

Yes, I know what the EU is, I know it is far from perfect and I don't particularly like it.

However, what would you do if someone wanted to leave and you didn't want to see the break up of your union? I didn't say it would happen, but it's a possibility, why? Because this is human nature. If you were against everything that succumbed to human nature you'd have to go be a hermit.

Some don't want their lives ruled, dominated, by foreigners who hate your guts?
What about the Tories? They're just a bunch of Normans who have hated the English, the Scots, the Welsh etc for a long long time.

You want to get "national pride" back? Is this all it is? It's like having a vote to see if England will win the world cup. Get more than 50% and England get to decide they have won it.

This is all Brexit is. People whose lives are pretty miserable, who think that they'll somehow get better lives outside of the EU, but the reality doesn't suggest this is the case (ie, you won't have more money after leaving, the laws will still be made and people will still not like them), so you just stick to things like Churchill, the flag, pride, and all that nationalistic nonsense that doesn't improve people's lives, it just gives them a reason to get drunk.

No it is like America having a vote to elect a muslim president and then moaning when he wins. It is not Brexit it is freedom to make our own decisions again, to be allowed to deport foreign criminals, stop unwanted migrants and cut our costs at a time the world is losing. Look at the nations that failed under the EU and what they had to do to get out of trouble. Getting safety and security back does improve peoples lives, getting a surplus on the housing market means that people can have a home again and having jobs available means they can get work.

 

[frigidweirdo]

What possible freedom do we have for trying to implement any 'plan', for as long as the EU dictates to us ?? We DO NOT HAVE THE FREEDOM to actively plan, as yet. No doubt if we tried, the EU would try to punish us for it ...

Besides, in general terms, it's obvious. One, IF the conditions are favourable enough, we can continue to trade with EU countries. However, we have yet to see how nasty Member States would want to be, how they'd try to punish us, if we successfully obtained our freedom.

The extent of such spiteful activity would determine the extent of our trade with others. It's not as though the rest of the world doesn't exist .. it does. We can, two, trade with it, determining OUR terms for doing so. BUT, only if we're shot of the EU !!

It's a leaving plan. What freedom do you have to make a leaving plan? Quite a lot.

However, if you're suggesting that the Brexit people can't make a leaving plan because they have no idea what the EU is going to do afterwards, you might be right, and it's also a reason why people should seriously be looking at the possibilities.

The Brexit people act like the UK is just going to make trade agreements that are equal to or better than what exists now. Chances are this isn't going to happen. People need to know this.

IF conditions are favorable enough, the UK won't lose half its trade. Wow, that's.... that's...... like jumping off a really high waterfall and hoping to do a perfect 10 dive, chances of survival? 1%.

Yes, spiteful activity. What reason does the EU have to want the UK to do well out of leaving the EU? None. There's no positive for them. They want to see the UK rot, and show all the other countries what happens if you leave the UK. The UK will be the example.

And you want to leave knowing you could lose a lot of trade, causing massive unemployment and problems? You want this?

I've thanked your last post, and for good reason. You've done a lot to acknowledge the true, pernicious, nature of the EU.

'THEY WANT TO SEE THE UK ROT'. H'm. Ever heard of the saying 'With friends like that, who needs enemies' .. ? You concede yourself the malevolent side of EU thinking ... and you insist that we must STILL want to be a part of it ???

Incredible.

Some of us don't want to live our lives ruled, dominated, by foreigners who are perfectly happy to hate our guts, if they find we don't behave as THEY choose us to !!! And I get from your wording that they will happily seize on an opportunity to 'make an example of us', for stepping out of line ? Rather like the Mafia might ... ?

National pride. Seems to me that we have our opportunity to reclaim it, to re-acquaint ourselves with some understanding and experience of some self-respect !! Getting shot of the likes of the EU will serve that aim nicely, it seems to me.

Thank you for making my case for me.

Yes, I know what the EU is, I know it is far from perfect and I don't particularly like it.

However, what would you do if someone wanted to leave and you didn't want to see the break up of your union? I didn't say it would happen, but it's a possibility, why? Because this is human nature. If you were against everything that succumbed to human nature you'd have to go be a hermit.

Some don't want their lives ruled, dominated, by foreigners who hate your guts?
What about the Tories? They're just a bunch of Normans who have hated the English, the Scots, the Welsh etc for a long long time.

You want to get "national pride" back? Is this all it is? It's like having a vote to see if England will win the world cup. Get more than 50% and England get to decide they have won it.

This is all Brexit is. People whose lives are pretty miserable, who think that they'll somehow get better lives outside of the EU, but the reality doesn't suggest this is the case (ie, you won't have more money after leaving, the laws will still be made and people will still not like them), so you just stick to things like Churchill, the flag, pride, and all that nationalistic nonsense that doesn't improve people's lives, it just gives them a reason to get drunk.

Answering 'what would you do if someone wanted to leave and you didn't want to see the break up of your union?' .. I can tell you what I wouldn't do. I'd not behave like some latter-day Hitler, determined to viciously punish a Nation State daring to have the sheer temerity to defy my rule !! And let's say you were talking about a 'union', i.e a TRADE Union. Do such Unions punish members who decide to be ex-members, or do they just accept it ?

Perhaps, instead of 'punishing', they attempt instead to make membership too attractive an option to defy ? Rather than just meting out a whole lot of nastiness ....

... still. This IS the EU we're really talking about ... !!! ......

What about the Tories, you say. I echo the question. What ABOUT them ? Since when were they relevant, in the sense being examined in this thread .. apart from allowing us a Referendum in the first place ? The pros and cons of EU membership aren't characterised by your personal assessment of the British Conservative Party !!

I see nothing wrong with national pride. WHY DO YOU ? Why, in your universe, is this any form of lamentable thing ? Doesn't the UK have a right to pride ? To a feeling of self-worth ? As well as being subsumed under the dictatorship of the EU, must we bury our sense of identity, too, and consider it worthless ? Is THIS what you expect ???

If, by your reckoning, 'Brexiters' lead miserable lives .. they currently do so whilst under the dominion of the EU. What does that say for the worth of our existence as members ?? Perhaps ... the key to improving their lives (and everyone else's on this side of the Channel) would be to regain national pride. National identity. FREEDOM to rule OURSELVES, forge our OWN path ... ? Is that really so terrible, is it too lamentable a path to dare to tread ??

You call nationalism 'nonsense'. Indeed ? OK, expand it to a future where the EU has realised its dream and become a single, indivisible political entity. Should it feel 'guilty' about pride in its own identity ? Would you disapprove of it, if it did feel such 'pride' ? Fact is that your dismisiveness towards 'nonsense nationalism' is no more than a convenient device you're employing to shift emotionalism to a direction of your choosing. I say this: the UK has a right to exist, feel pride in itself, work towards self rule, work towards its political freedom from a political entity that, as you've said yourself, would be happy to see us rot if we did too much to defy it !!

Your remaining argumentation relies on scaremongering, and sapping our confidence in ourselves to succeed on our own merits (which is insulting, isn't it ?). You've no basis for supposing we are incapable of thriving outside of the EU. Other countries manage it ... so can we.

Maybe you wouldn't, but the politicians might. The leaving of Scotland would be far less dangerous for the UK than the UK leaving the EU. That doesn't mean, for example, that the Tories would try and pull some stunt like that.

Look at what the Tories DID DO.

Scotland could get ‘revenge’ for broken referendum promises, says Salmond

"First minister says a ‘huge gap’ has opened between what was promised by Westminster leaders and command paper"

"“Right now, the initial judgment that’s coming from Scotland is that people have no confidence in Tory guarantees and are absolutely fizzing about what looks like a preparation for a betrayal of a strong commitment made.”"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-powers-English-MPs-bid-head-Tory-revolt.html

"
Boris slams 'reckless' election promises to Scotland as Cameron calls for a 'fair settlement' for all UK nations"

Now, you can complain about the EU, I understand the point you're making, but you're merely taking some power away from one group of untrustworthy politicians and giving to another group of untrustworthy politicians.

I'll make the assumption that you're English (though I could be wrong) and while Cameron is English, he doesn't necessarily stand up for every English person, in fact he's a bit elitist, trying to destroy the NHS, education going down the pan, public services simply not being what they should be, all because the rich want to save themselves a bit of money.

So, moving from the EU which is a bunch of foreigners, to Cameron and his buddies, I'm sort of failing to see how you benefit from this.

I totally agree with your point that they should make membership attractive to the members. The thing is, from someone who was in youth politics, and a short while in adult politics, you see the sort of people that politics attracts, and they're not the sort of people you want running your country.

Hence my argument. You go from politicians in Brussels to politicians in London, and to be honest I don't see the difference much. Fine, in London they've been elected by the people, then again the people don't seem to have much sense for what makes a good politician either. You elect people to the EU who don't do much for us within the EU, you elect people to Westminster who also don't do much for the UK within the EU.

So, leaving the EU won't get sovereignty back, won't make things better, as you'll still have politicians in charge.

As for your question about the relevance of the Tories, I believe I answered this before.

I don't see anything wrong with national pride, unless national pride gets in the way of national reality. I see what people like Milosevic, those in Rwanada, in China, in the US, in Argentina (over the Falklands for example) where national pride gets in the way of sensible thinking and causes a lot of problems.

When it is pride that complements reality, then it's great, but it's not always the case, and the Brexit situation doesn't seem to be about pride AND reality, but pride OVER reality.

Identity is an important part, and in many ways I agree with those of the Tory/UKIP camp when it comes to dealing strongly with immigration. I've lived in countries with tough immigration laws, almost impossible permanent immigration laws, all foreigners are living on one or two years at a time. I have no problem with this. I think identity is something that should be promoted and protected.

It's not just Brexit people who lead miserable lives. Lots of people lead miserable lives and they look to politics, sometimes, to give them hope. Obama stood on a platform of hope and won. Trump is throwing hope out to the people without much in the way of policies, people go through stages of life where hope dwindles, they're not young, they work all the time, they're busy, not much to look forward to or hope for, and they cling to things. As Obama once said, people clinging to their guns, in the UK people are clinging to leaving the EU is one way people give hope. Football is another European example.

Farage is a politician with charisma, people like charisma and they'll look to that over substance. Farage gave people this hope, but he lost in the GE big time, and he's latched on to the referendum in order to make this about Farage, and he's pushing it for all it's worth and people WANT TO BELIEVE.



But what you're arguing is nationalism over the economy, nationalism over people's lives, people's ability to spend money to go on holiday, or to upgrade things in their lives. Is Nationalism more important than your pocket?

 

[frigidweirdo]

They cant as the EU rules will not allow them to do so, The price is set and that is what it has to sell for. If the UK leaves they are no longer constrained by the rules and can sell for what they want.

Yes when the Eastern European nations joined trade with them increased and some people became very rich in the process. Now they are struggling to attract buyers for their produce because it is of such poor quality, they are forced to put country of origin on the packaging so many people wont now buy these goods. The people being poor did not buy much from the EU and found most of the edible produce to be tasteless and poor.

Trade wont change as the nations will need to buy our goods before we buy theirs, if they refuse we walk away and go elsewhere.I am sure we can do without golden delicious apples and straight cucumbers for a few weeks until ours become ripe. Or we can go to Israel for their fresh fruits ?

Except if A) the UK govt decides to impose such limits and B) if the UK ends up in a deal with the EU that constrains UK businesses.

I don't just mean products going from east to west, mainly I mean west to east, they were buying UK products. Now, if those products rise in price, will they continue to buy from the UK?

You say trade won't change. You're not being realistic at all. Trade WILL change, of course it will. Even the Brexit people know it will change, and it will almost certainly change for the worst for the UK. It might also effect the EU.

Like that BBC article I posted said, the chances of the EU trying to "punish" the UK for leaving is quite high, even if they would suffer a little.

Scotland would suffer a LOT.

They wont rise they will drop, and this is what the problem is. The prices are kept artificially high so that farmers in richer nations can still make a profit. This was a constraint on normal business practices so that French and German farmers could compete unfairly with farmers on poorer nations. Things like washing machines, dishwashers, fridges etc. all had a minimum price set to accommodate the "richer" nations. So why would a consumer buy a washing machine made in the EU costing $250 when the British one identical down to name would cost $175. So yes trade will change over time, but initially the biggest change will be in pricing of EU goods down to compete in a free market, and the items from non EU sources available in the shops.
The EU will suffer much more than the UK will when it has to increase the "donations" from member states to cover the costs lost from the UK exit. Why would Scotland suffer more when they will be cushioned by the UK rising economy and not the EU falling economy. Look it up and see how the general EU economy is dropping and holding back the UK economy

I'm not sure what you mean by set prices. Is this set prices exporting, importing, internal within the EU? Where is the set price?

As far as I know there's something about price discrimination within different countries. So if you sell for 200 euros in France then you sell for 200 euros in Germany, for example.

But leaving the EU doesn't mean this would necessarily change. That depends on the deal the UK gets, and any deal is going to include a lot of what the EU does.

Potentially the EU washing machine would become more expensive, so people would more likely to buy British products if tariffs are imposed, this can be beneficial. However the problem is the UK market is smaller than the EU market, and over all the UK will miss out.

I don't see how the EU economy is holding back the UK economy. But you're welcome to make your case.

 

[frigidweirdo]

What possible freedom do we have for trying to implement any 'plan', for as long as the EU dictates to us ?? We DO NOT HAVE THE FREEDOM to actively plan, as yet. No doubt if we tried, the EU would try to punish us for it ...

Besides, in general terms, it's obvious. One, IF the conditions are favourable enough, we can continue to trade with EU countries. However, we have yet to see how nasty Member States would want to be, how they'd try to punish us, if we successfully obtained our freedom.

The extent of such spiteful activity would determine the extent of our trade with others. It's not as though the rest of the world doesn't exist .. it does. We can, two, trade with it, determining OUR terms for doing so. BUT, only if we're shot of the EU !!

It's a leaving plan. What freedom do you have to make a leaving plan? Quite a lot.

However, if you're suggesting that the Brexit people can't make a leaving plan because they have no idea what the EU is going to do afterwards, you might be right, and it's also a reason why people should seriously be looking at the possibilities.

The Brexit people act like the UK is just going to make trade agreements that are equal to or better than what exists now. Chances are this isn't going to happen. People need to know this.

IF conditions are favorable enough, the UK won't lose half its trade. Wow, that's.... that's...... like jumping off a really high waterfall and hoping to do a perfect 10 dive, chances of survival? 1%.

Yes, spiteful activity. What reason does the EU have to want the UK to do well out of leaving the EU? None. There's no positive for them. They want to see the UK rot, and show all the other countries what happens if you leave the UK. The UK will be the example.

And you want to leave knowing you could lose a lot of trade, causing massive unemployment and problems? You want this?

If you can forecast the future so well why aren't you a multi billionaire.

We have trade now because Europe needs our products, that will not change if we leave they will still need our products. If the UK loses half of its trade so will the EU as it is a two way street, and Europe is running on a thin line after taking on far too many poor Eastern European nations. They hoped to put a buffer zone between Russia and the West using these former soviet satellite nations and failed. If they can find a way to offload them without seeming arrogant and nasty then they should do so. The Syrian crisis has shown that the EU failed on its border security because it never implemented the multi national armed force it promised.

What I'm forecasting is very vague. I'm suggesting a lot of possibilities, not saying exactly what will happen.

Yes, the EU wants our products and we want their products.

However you have lots of different possibilities out there.

1) The EU will try and hurt the UK by being tough when negotiating a new trade agreement so that UK business will have to pay tariffs on their goods going to the EU.

2) The pound will drop in order to accommodate tariffs and the like, and this will lose the UK a lot of money. I posted that a 1% drop in the pound against the Euro will lose the UK more money than the net spending on the EU. a 5% will cause massive unemployment along with a devalued pound which makes everyone poorer anyway.

3) The UK (with a government that is pro-EU whichever gets elected) will choose to join the Schengen Zone in order to have good trade, which will lose the UK a lot less in trade, but which is a WORSE situation for immigration.

Here are some. In order for the UK not to lose out economically, the UK has to accept what the EU is offering and that the Brexit people won't like.

In just about every possibility, there is no win/win for the UK. Either they lose economically or they lose by being controlled more by the EU.

So we impose our own tariffs on the EU goods coming to the UK. The same goods that they are pricing out of the market made in the UK, so that trade stops and the EU is the loser.

Currency fluctuates all the time and the Euro more so than any other. If the £ drops then the costs of overseas travel will rise and less people will go. Foreign goods will increase in price meaning less will be sold and imports will stop. The UK economy will drop slightly but the EU even more when the other currencies rise against the Euro .

Why will we accept the very thing that has forced us to look at leaving, control of our borders. Without the Schengen zone we will be controlling our borders once again and we will be stopping 90% of migrants after a free ride. If the EU had allowed the UK to impose the same laws that France and Germany have in place then there would be no problems, but they did not want to lose their dumping ground and so forced the issue. Now they are seeing the folly of their ways and will have to pay the price.

We don't have to accept what they are offering as we can go elsewhere to new markets that have tried to trade with the UK in the last ten years. The EU has to face facts that they could lose 30% of its income and so go bust. The east of Europe is turning because of the muslim crisis and they want action from Brussels to turn the tide, they want control of their borders back. If it is not forthcoming watch them start to leave the EU, putting even more strain on the EU rules and laws.

No, the EU won't be the loser. It's a matter of figures. The EU will still be a much, MUCH larger market than the UK market.

For the EU to cope with losing say 10% of UK trade will impact the EU, but it will be a far lower percentage of trade than for the UK.

Why would the UK accept the Schengen Zone? Well, because the people who vote leave, aren't necessarily the politicians who will be doing the deals with the EU. Think about it.

 

[frigidweirdo]

What possible freedom do we have for trying to implement any 'plan', for as long as the EU dictates to us ?? We DO NOT HAVE THE FREEDOM to actively plan, as yet. No doubt if we tried, the EU would try to punish us for it ...

Besides, in general terms, it's obvious. One, IF the conditions are favourable enough, we can continue to trade with EU countries. However, we have yet to see how nasty Member States would want to be, how they'd try to punish us, if we successfully obtained our freedom.

The extent of such spiteful activity would determine the extent of our trade with others. It's not as though the rest of the world doesn't exist .. it does. We can, two, trade with it, determining OUR terms for doing so. BUT, only if we're shot of the EU !!

It's a leaving plan. What freedom do you have to make a leaving plan? Quite a lot.

However, if you're suggesting that the Brexit people can't make a leaving plan because they have no idea what the EU is going to do afterwards, you might be right, and it's also a reason why people should seriously be looking at the possibilities.

The Brexit people act like the UK is just going to make trade agreements that are equal to or better than what exists now. Chances are this isn't going to happen. People need to know this.

IF conditions are favorable enough, the UK won't lose half its trade. Wow, that's.... that's...... like jumping off a really high waterfall and hoping to do a perfect 10 dive, chances of survival? 1%.

Yes, spiteful activity. What reason does the EU have to want the UK to do well out of leaving the EU? None. There's no positive for them. They want to see the UK rot, and show all the other countries what happens if you leave the UK. The UK will be the example.

And you want to leave knowing you could lose a lot of trade, causing massive unemployment and problems? You want this?

I've thanked your last post, and for good reason. You've done a lot to acknowledge the true, pernicious, nature of the EU.

'THEY WANT TO SEE THE UK ROT'. H'm. Ever heard of the saying 'With friends like that, who needs enemies' .. ? You concede yourself the malevolent side of EU thinking ... and you insist that we must STILL want to be a part of it ???

Incredible.

Some of us don't want to live our lives ruled, dominated, by foreigners who are perfectly happy to hate our guts, if they find we don't behave as THEY choose us to !!! And I get from your wording that they will happily seize on an opportunity to 'make an example of us', for stepping out of line ? Rather like the Mafia might ... ?

National pride. Seems to me that we have our opportunity to reclaim it, to re-acquaint ourselves with some understanding and experience of some self-respect !! Getting shot of the likes of the EU will serve that aim nicely, it seems to me.

Thank you for making my case for me.

Yes, I know what the EU is, I know it is far from perfect and I don't particularly like it.

However, what would you do if someone wanted to leave and you didn't want to see the break up of your union? I didn't say it would happen, but it's a possibility, why? Because this is human nature. If you were against everything that succumbed to human nature you'd have to go be a hermit.

Some don't want their lives ruled, dominated, by foreigners who hate your guts?
What about the Tories? They're just a bunch of Normans who have hated the English, the Scots, the Welsh etc for a long long time.

You want to get "national pride" back? Is this all it is? It's like having a vote to see if England will win the world cup. Get more than 50% and England get to decide they have won it.

This is all Brexit is. People whose lives are pretty miserable, who think that they'll somehow get better lives outside of the EU, but the reality doesn't suggest this is the case (ie, you won't have more money after leaving, the laws will still be made and people will still not like them), so you just stick to things like Churchill, the flag, pride, and all that nationalistic nonsense that doesn't improve people's lives, it just gives them a reason to get drunk.

No it is like America having a vote to elect a muslim president and then moaning when he wins. It is not Brexit it is freedom to make our own decisions again, to be allowed to deport foreign criminals, stop unwanted migrants and cut our costs at a time the world is losing. Look at the nations that failed under the EU and what they had to do to get out of trouble. Getting safety and security back does improve peoples lives, getting a surplus on the housing market means that people can have a home again and having jobs available means they can get work.

Which decisions does the UK not make, exactly?

I know there are some, but exactly how does it impact the normal person?

What's the difference if the same law is passed in Brussels or London? What difference does that make?

 

[Drummond]

What possible freedom do we have for trying to implement any 'plan', for as long as the EU dictates to us ?? We DO NOT HAVE THE FREEDOM to actively plan, as yet. No doubt if we tried, the EU would try to punish us for it ...

Besides, in general terms, it's obvious. One, IF the conditions are favourable enough, we can continue to trade with EU countries. However, we have yet to see how nasty Member States would want to be, how they'd try to punish us, if we successfully obtained our freedom.

The extent of such spiteful activity would determine the extent of our trade with others. It's not as though the rest of the world doesn't exist .. it does. We can, two, trade with it, determining OUR terms for doing so. BUT, only if we're shot of the EU !!

It's a leaving plan. What freedom do you have to make a leaving plan? Quite a lot.

However, if you're suggesting that the Brexit people can't make a leaving plan because they have no idea what the EU is going to do afterwards, you might be right, and it's also a reason why people should seriously be looking at the possibilities.

The Brexit people act like the UK is just going to make trade agreements that are equal to or better than what exists now. Chances are this isn't going to happen. People need to know this.

IF conditions are favorable enough, the UK won't lose half its trade. Wow, that's.... that's...... like jumping off a really high waterfall and hoping to do a perfect 10 dive, chances of survival? 1%.

Yes, spiteful activity. What reason does the EU have to want the UK to do well out of leaving the EU? None. There's no positive for them. They want to see the UK rot, and show all the other countries what happens if you leave the UK. The UK will be the example.

And you want to leave knowing you could lose a lot of trade, causing massive unemployment and problems? You want this?

I've thanked your last post, and for good reason. You've done a lot to acknowledge the true, pernicious, nature of the EU.

'THEY WANT TO SEE THE UK ROT'. H'm. Ever heard of the saying 'With friends like that, who needs enemies' .. ? You concede yourself the malevolent side of EU thinking ... and you insist that we must STILL want to be a part of it ???

Incredible.

Some of us don't want to live our lives ruled, dominated, by foreigners who are perfectly happy to hate our guts, if they find we don't behave as THEY choose us to !!! And I get from your wording that they will happily seize on an opportunity to 'make an example of us', for stepping out of line ? Rather like the Mafia might ... ?

National pride. Seems to me that we have our opportunity to reclaim it, to re-acquaint ourselves with some understanding and experience of some self-respect !! Getting shot of the likes of the EU will serve that aim nicely, it seems to me.

Thank you for making my case for me.

Yes, I know what the EU is, I know it is far from perfect and I don't particularly like it.

However, what would you do if someone wanted to leave and you didn't want to see the break up of your union? I didn't say it would happen, but it's a possibility, why? Because this is human nature. If you were against everything that succumbed to human nature you'd have to go be a hermit.

Some don't want their lives ruled, dominated, by foreigners who hate your guts?
What about the Tories? They're just a bunch of Normans who have hated the English, the Scots, the Welsh etc for a long long time.

You want to get "national pride" back? Is this all it is? It's like having a vote to see if England will win the world cup. Get more than 50% and England get to decide they have won it.

This is all Brexit is. People whose lives are pretty miserable, who think that they'll somehow get better lives outside of the EU, but the reality doesn't suggest this is the case (ie, you won't have more money after leaving, the laws will still be made and people will still not like them), so you just stick to things like Churchill, the flag, pride, and all that nationalistic nonsense that doesn't improve people's lives, it just gives them a reason to get drunk.

Answering 'what would you do if someone wanted to leave and you didn't want to see the break up of your union?' .. I can tell you what I wouldn't do. I'd not behave like some latter-day Hitler, determined to viciously punish a Nation State daring to have the sheer temerity to defy my rule !! And let's say you were talking about a 'union', i.e a TRADE Union. Do such Unions punish members who decide to be ex-members, or do they just accept it ?

Perhaps, instead of 'punishing', they attempt instead to make membership too attractive an option to defy ? Rather than just meting out a whole lot of nastiness ....

... still. This IS the EU we're really talking about ... !!! ......

What about the Tories, you say. I echo the question. What ABOUT them ? Since when were they relevant, in the sense being examined in this thread .. apart from allowing us a Referendum in the first place ? The pros and cons of EU membership aren't characterised by your personal assessment of the British Conservative Party !!

I see nothing wrong with national pride. WHY DO YOU ? Why, in your universe, is this any form of lamentable thing ? Doesn't the UK have a right to pride ? To a feeling of self-worth ? As well as being subsumed under the dictatorship of the EU, must we bury our sense of identity, too, and consider it worthless ? Is THIS what you expect ???

If, by your reckoning, 'Brexiters' lead miserable lives .. they currently do so whilst under the dominion of the EU. What does that say for the worth of our existence as members ?? Perhaps ... the key to improving their lives (and everyone else's on this side of the Channel) would be to regain national pride. National identity. FREEDOM to rule OURSELVES, forge our OWN path ... ? Is that really so terrible, is it too lamentable a path to dare to tread ??

You call nationalism 'nonsense'. Indeed ? OK, expand it to a future where the EU has realised its dream and become a single, indivisible political entity. Should it feel 'guilty' about pride in its own identity ? Would you disapprove of it, if it did feel such 'pride' ? Fact is that your dismisiveness towards 'nonsense nationalism' is no more than a convenient device you're employing to shift emotionalism to a direction of your choosing. I say this: the UK has a right to exist, feel pride in itself, work towards self rule, work towards its political freedom from a political entity that, as you've said yourself, would be happy to see us rot if we did too much to defy it !!

Your remaining argumentation relies on scaremongering, and sapping our confidence in ourselves to succeed on our own merits (which is insulting, isn't it ?). You've no basis for supposing we are incapable of thriving outside of the EU. Other countries manage it ... so can we.

Maybe you wouldn't, but the politicians might. The leaving of Scotland would be far less dangerous for the UK than the UK leaving the EU. That doesn't mean, for example, that the Tories would try and pull some stunt like that.

Look at what the Tories DID DO.

Scotland could get ‘revenge’ for broken referendum promises, says Salmond

"First minister says a ‘huge gap’ has opened between what was promised by Westminster leaders and command paper"

"“Right now, the initial judgment that’s coming from Scotland is that people have no confidence in Tory guarantees and are absolutely fizzing about what looks like a preparation for a betrayal of a strong commitment made.”"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-powers-English-MPs-bid-head-Tory-revolt.html

"
Boris slams 'reckless' election promises to Scotland as Cameron calls for a 'fair settlement' for all UK nations"

Now, you can complain about the EU, I understand the point you're making, but you're merely taking some power away from one group of untrustworthy politicians and giving to another group of untrustworthy politicians.

I'll make the assumption that you're English (though I could be wrong) and while Cameron is English, he doesn't necessarily stand up for every English person, in fact he's a bit elitist, trying to destroy the NHS, education going down the pan, public services simply not being what they should be, all because the rich want to save themselves a bit of money.

So, moving from the EU which is a bunch of foreigners, to Cameron and his buddies, I'm sort of failing to see how you benefit from this.

I totally agree with your point that they should make membership attractive to the members. The thing is, from someone who was in youth politics, and a short while in adult politics, you see the sort of people that politics attracts, and they're not the sort of people you want running your country.

Hence my argument. You go from politicians in Brussels to politicians in London, and to be honest I don't see the difference much. Fine, in London they've been elected by the people, then again the people don't seem to have much sense for what makes a good politician either. You elect people to the EU who don't do much for us within the EU, you elect people to Westminster who also don't do much for the UK within the EU.

So, leaving the EU won't get sovereignty back, won't make things better, as you'll still have politicians in charge.

As for your question about the relevance of the Tories, I believe I answered this before.

I don't see anything wrong with national pride, unless national pride gets in the way of national reality. I see what people like Milosevic, those in Rwanada, in China, in the US, in Argentina (over the Falklands for example) where national pride gets in the way of sensible thinking and causes a lot of problems.

When it is pride that complements reality, then it's great, but it's not always the case, and the Brexit situation doesn't seem to be about pride AND reality, but pride OVER reality.

Identity is an important part, and in many ways I agree with those of the Tory/UKIP camp when it comes to dealing strongly with immigration. I've lived in countries with tough immigration laws, almost impossible permanent immigration laws, all foreigners are living on one or two years at a time. I have no problem with this. I think identity is something that should be promoted and protected.

It's not just Brexit people who lead miserable lives. Lots of people lead miserable lives and they look to politics, sometimes, to give them hope. Obama stood on a platform of hope and won. Trump is throwing hope out to the people without much in the way of policies, people go through stages of life where hope dwindles, they're not young, they work all the time, they're busy, not much to look forward to or hope for, and they cling to things. As Obama once said, people clinging to their guns, in the UK people are clinging to leaving the EU is one way people give hope. Football is another European example.

Farage is a politician with charisma, people like charisma and they'll look to that over substance. Farage gave people this hope, but he lost in the GE big time, and he's latched on to the referendum in order to make this about Farage, and he's pushing it for all it's worth and people WANT TO BELIEVE.



But what you're arguing is nationalism over the economy, nationalism over people's lives, people's ability to spend money to go on holiday, or to upgrade things in their lives. Is Nationalism more important than your pocket?

What I'm arguing for is freedom. Freedom to shake off the domineering EU once and for all. Regardless of your quibbling about what occurs within the UK's borders, at least those Parties you mention ARE operating within the UK's borders, taking decisions for people within the UK. What you're fighting for is an ever-greater reduction of that, over time.

You disparagingly say ... 'in London they've been elected by the people, then again the people don't seem to have much sense for what makes a good politician either.'. This is more of your 'we aren't fit to govern ourselves' argumentation. You are so centred on power being taken away from the peoples of the UK !!

What's wrong with having the hope that you acquire freedom, and from people prepared to hate us if we don't do as they expect us to ?

You talk of facing reality. I say, WE MAKE OUR OWN. We're not incapable of it, any more than any other non-EU country is. There is nothing 'deficient' in us that makes us incapable of dealing with our own fate in a responsible and profitable manner. However, the 'Remain' people rely on our fearing anything that involves change from the status quo ... as if we have that fictional, imaginary, 'deficiency' encoded into our DNA.

I say: we do not. Time we ruled ourselves, determined our own future, emerged as responsible adults to make our own way in the world ... and forsook the sometimes-dysfunctional playpen of the control-freaking EU !

 

[Drummond]

What possible freedom do we have for trying to implement any 'plan', for as long as the EU dictates to us ?? We DO NOT HAVE THE FREEDOM to actively plan, as yet. No doubt if we tried, the EU would try to punish us for it ...

Besides, in general terms, it's obvious. One, IF the conditions are favourable enough, we can continue to trade with EU countries. However, we have yet to see how nasty Member States would want to be, how they'd try to punish us, if we successfully obtained our freedom.

The extent of such spiteful activity would determine the extent of our trade with others. It's not as though the rest of the world doesn't exist .. it does. We can, two, trade with it, determining OUR terms for doing so. BUT, only if we're shot of the EU !!

It's a leaving plan. What freedom do you have to make a leaving plan? Quite a lot.

However, if you're suggesting that the Brexit people can't make a leaving plan because they have no idea what the EU is going to do afterwards, you might be right, and it's also a reason why people should seriously be looking at the possibilities.

The Brexit people act like the UK is just going to make trade agreements that are equal to or better than what exists now. Chances are this isn't going to happen. People need to know this.

IF conditions are favorable enough, the UK won't lose half its trade. Wow, that's.... that's...... like jumping off a really high waterfall and hoping to do a perfect 10 dive, chances of survival? 1%.

Yes, spiteful activity. What reason does the EU have to want the UK to do well out of leaving the EU? None. There's no positive for them. They want to see the UK rot, and show all the other countries what happens if you leave the UK. The UK will be the example.

And you want to leave knowing you could lose a lot of trade, causing massive unemployment and problems? You want this?

I've thanked your last post, and for good reason. You've done a lot to acknowledge the true, pernicious, nature of the EU.

'THEY WANT TO SEE THE UK ROT'. H'm. Ever heard of the saying 'With friends like that, who needs enemies' .. ? You concede yourself the malevolent side of EU thinking ... and you insist that we must STILL want to be a part of it ???

Incredible.

Some of us don't want to live our lives ruled, dominated, by foreigners who are perfectly happy to hate our guts, if they find we don't behave as THEY choose us to !!! And I get from your wording that they will happily seize on an opportunity to 'make an example of us', for stepping out of line ? Rather like the Mafia might ... ?

National pride. Seems to me that we have our opportunity to reclaim it, to re-acquaint ourselves with some understanding and experience of some self-respect !! Getting shot of the likes of the EU will serve that aim nicely, it seems to me.

Thank you for making my case for me.

Yes, I know what the EU is, I know it is far from perfect and I don't particularly like it.

However, what would you do if someone wanted to leave and you didn't want to see the break up of your union? I didn't say it would happen, but it's a possibility, why? Because this is human nature. If you were against everything that succumbed to human nature you'd have to go be a hermit.

Some don't want their lives ruled, dominated, by foreigners who hate your guts?
What about the Tories? They're just a bunch of Normans who have hated the English, the Scots, the Welsh etc for a long long time.

You want to get "national pride" back? Is this all it is? It's like having a vote to see if England will win the world cup. Get more than 50% and England get to decide they have won it.

This is all Brexit is. People whose lives are pretty miserable, who think that they'll somehow get better lives outside of the EU, but the reality doesn't suggest this is the case (ie, you won't have more money after leaving, the laws will still be made and people will still not like them), so you just stick to things like Churchill, the flag, pride, and all that nationalistic nonsense that doesn't improve people's lives, it just gives them a reason to get drunk.

No it is like America having a vote to elect a muslim president and then moaning when he wins. It is not Brexit it is freedom to make our own decisions again, to be allowed to deport foreign criminals, stop unwanted migrants and cut our costs at a time the world is losing. Look at the nations that failed under the EU and what they had to do to get out of trouble. Getting safety and security back does improve peoples lives, getting a surplus on the housing market means that people can have a home again and having jobs available means they can get work.

Which decisions does the UK not make, exactly?

I know there are some, but exactly how does it impact the normal person?

What's the difference if the same law is passed in Brussels or London? What difference does that make?

You don't think that immigration has an impact on the availability of jobs to those who originally came from the UK ? And a rather big one, at that ? Seriously ?

'The same law' passed in Brussels surely means that the EU determined its existence, and the degree to which it would be implemented ? This is not self-rule, it is not freedom. This is what's missing from the equation.

June 23rd gives us the chance to remedy that. Not before time, either ...

 

[frigidweirdo]

It's a leaving plan. What freedom do you have to make a leaving plan? Quite a lot.

However, if you're suggesting that the Brexit people can't make a leaving plan because they have no idea what the EU is going to do afterwards, you might be right, and it's also a reason why people should seriously be looking at the possibilities.

The Brexit people act like the UK is just going to make trade agreements that are equal to or better than what exists now. Chances are this isn't going to happen. People need to know this.

IF conditions are favorable enough, the UK won't lose half its trade. Wow, that's.... that's...... like jumping off a really high waterfall and hoping to do a perfect 10 dive, chances of survival? 1%.

Yes, spiteful activity. What reason does the EU have to want the UK to do well out of leaving the EU? None. There's no positive for them. They want to see the UK rot, and show all the other countries what happens if you leave the UK. The UK will be the example.

And you want to leave knowing you could lose a lot of trade, causing massive unemployment and problems? You want this?

I've thanked your last post, and for good reason. You've done a lot to acknowledge the true, pernicious, nature of the EU.

'THEY WANT TO SEE THE UK ROT'. H'm. Ever heard of the saying 'With friends like that, who needs enemies' .. ? You concede yourself the malevolent side of EU thinking ... and you insist that we must STILL want to be a part of it ???

Incredible.

Some of us don't want to live our lives ruled, dominated, by foreigners who are perfectly happy to hate our guts, if they find we don't behave as THEY choose us to !!! And I get from your wording that they will happily seize on an opportunity to 'make an example of us', for stepping out of line ? Rather like the Mafia might ... ?

National pride. Seems to me that we have our opportunity to reclaim it, to re-acquaint ourselves with some understanding and experience of some self-respect !! Getting shot of the likes of the EU will serve that aim nicely, it seems to me.

Thank you for making my case for me.

Yes, I know what the EU is, I know it is far from perfect and I don't particularly like it.

However, what would you do if someone wanted to leave and you didn't want to see the break up of your union? I didn't say it would happen, but it's a possibility, why? Because this is human nature. If you were against everything that succumbed to human nature you'd have to go be a hermit.

Some don't want their lives ruled, dominated, by foreigners who hate your guts?
What about the Tories? They're just a bunch of Normans who have hated the English, the Scots, the Welsh etc for a long long time.

You want to get "national pride" back? Is this all it is? It's like having a vote to see if England will win the world cup. Get more than 50% and England get to decide they have won it.

This is all Brexit is. People whose lives are pretty miserable, who think that they'll somehow get better lives outside of the EU, but the reality doesn't suggest this is the case (ie, you won't have more money after leaving, the laws will still be made and people will still not like them), so you just stick to things like Churchill, the flag, pride, and all that nationalistic nonsense that doesn't improve people's lives, it just gives them a reason to get drunk.

Answering 'what would you do if someone wanted to leave and you didn't want to see the break up of your union?' .. I can tell you what I wouldn't do. I'd not behave like some latter-day Hitler, determined to viciously punish a Nation State daring to have the sheer temerity to defy my rule !! And let's say you were talking about a 'union', i.e a TRADE Union. Do such Unions punish members who decide to be ex-members, or do they just accept it ?

Perhaps, instead of 'punishing', they attempt instead to make membership too attractive an option to defy ? Rather than just meting out a whole lot of nastiness ....

... still. This IS the EU we're really talking about ... !!! ......

What about the Tories, you say. I echo the question. What ABOUT them ? Since when were they relevant, in the sense being examined in this thread .. apart from allowing us a Referendum in the first place ? The pros and cons of EU membership aren't characterised by your personal assessment of the British Conservative Party !!

I see nothing wrong with national pride. WHY DO YOU ? Why, in your universe, is this any form of lamentable thing ? Doesn't the UK have a right to pride ? To a feeling of self-worth ? As well as being subsumed under the dictatorship of the EU, must we bury our sense of identity, too, and consider it worthless ? Is THIS what you expect ???

If, by your reckoning, 'Brexiters' lead miserable lives .. they currently do so whilst under the dominion of the EU. What does that say for the worth of our existence as members ?? Perhaps ... the key to improving their lives (and everyone else's on this side of the Channel) would be to regain national pride. National identity. FREEDOM to rule OURSELVES, forge our OWN path ... ? Is that really so terrible, is it too lamentable a path to dare to tread ??

You call nationalism 'nonsense'. Indeed ? OK, expand it to a future where the EU has realised its dream and become a single, indivisible political entity. Should it feel 'guilty' about pride in its own identity ? Would you disapprove of it, if it did feel such 'pride' ? Fact is that your dismisiveness towards 'nonsense nationalism' is no more than a convenient device you're employing to shift emotionalism to a direction of your choosing. I say this: the UK has a right to exist, feel pride in itself, work towards self rule, work towards its political freedom from a political entity that, as you've said yourself, would be happy to see us rot if we did too much to defy it !!

Your remaining argumentation relies on scaremongering, and sapping our confidence in ourselves to succeed on our own merits (which is insulting, isn't it ?). You've no basis for supposing we are incapable of thriving outside of the EU. Other countries manage it ... so can we.

Maybe you wouldn't, but the politicians might. The leaving of Scotland would be far less dangerous for the UK than the UK leaving the EU. That doesn't mean, for example, that the Tories would try and pull some stunt like that.

Look at what the Tories DID DO.

Scotland could get ‘revenge’ for broken referendum promises, says Salmond

"First minister says a ‘huge gap’ has opened between what was promised by Westminster leaders and command paper"

"“Right now, the initial judgment that’s coming from Scotland is that people have no confidence in Tory guarantees and are absolutely fizzing about what looks like a preparation for a betrayal of a strong commitment made.”"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-powers-English-MPs-bid-head-Tory-revolt.html

"
Boris slams 'reckless' election promises to Scotland as Cameron calls for a 'fair settlement' for all UK nations"

Now, you can complain about the EU, I understand the point you're making, but you're merely taking some power away from one group of untrustworthy politicians and giving to another group of untrustworthy politicians.

I'll make the assumption that you're English (though I could be wrong) and while Cameron is English, he doesn't necessarily stand up for every English person, in fact he's a bit elitist, trying to destroy the NHS, education going down the pan, public services simply not being what they should be, all because the rich want to save themselves a bit of money.

So, moving from the EU which is a bunch of foreigners, to Cameron and his buddies, I'm sort of failing to see how you benefit from this.

I totally agree with your point that they should make membership attractive to the members. The thing is, from someone who was in youth politics, and a short while in adult politics, you see the sort of people that politics attracts, and they're not the sort of people you want running your country.

Hence my argument. You go from politicians in Brussels to politicians in London, and to be honest I don't see the difference much. Fine, in London they've been elected by the people, then again the people don't seem to have much sense for what makes a good politician either. You elect people to the EU who don't do much for us within the EU, you elect people to Westminster who also don't do much for the UK within the EU.

So, leaving the EU won't get sovereignty back, won't make things better, as you'll still have politicians in charge.

As for your question about the relevance of the Tories, I believe I answered this before.

I don't see anything wrong with national pride, unless national pride gets in the way of national reality. I see what people like Milosevic, those in Rwanada, in China, in the US, in Argentina (over the Falklands for example) where national pride gets in the way of sensible thinking and causes a lot of problems.

When it is pride that complements reality, then it's great, but it's not always the case, and the Brexit situation doesn't seem to be about pride AND reality, but pride OVER reality.

Identity is an important part, and in many ways I agree with those of the Tory/UKIP camp when it comes to dealing strongly with immigration. I've lived in countries with tough immigration laws, almost impossible permanent immigration laws, all foreigners are living on one or two years at a time. I have no problem with this. I think identity is something that should be promoted and protected.

It's not just Brexit people who lead miserable lives. Lots of people lead miserable lives and they look to politics, sometimes, to give them hope. Obama stood on a platform of hope and won. Trump is throwing hope out to the people without much in the way of policies, people go through stages of life where hope dwindles, they're not young, they work all the time, they're busy, not much to look forward to or hope for, and they cling to things. As Obama once said, people clinging to their guns, in the UK people are clinging to leaving the EU is one way people give hope. Football is another European example.

Farage is a politician with charisma, people like charisma and they'll look to that over substance. Farage gave people this hope, but he lost in the GE big time, and he's latched on to the referendum in order to make this about Farage, and he's pushing it for all it's worth and people WANT TO BELIEVE.



But what you're arguing is nationalism over the economy, nationalism over people's lives, people's ability to spend money to go on holiday, or to upgrade things in their lives. Is Nationalism more important than your pocket?

What I'm arguing for is freedom. Freedom to shake off the domineering EU once and for all. Regardless of your quibbling about what occurs within the UK's borders, at least those Parties you mention ARE operating within the UK's borders, taking decisions for people within the UK. What you're fighting for is an ever-greater reduction of that, over time.

You disparagingly say ... 'in London they've been elected by the people, then again the people don't seem to have much sense for what makes a good politician either.'. This is more of your 'we aren't fit to govern ourselves' argumentation. You are so centred on power being taken away from the peoples of the UK !!

What's wrong with having the hope that you acquire freedom, and from people prepared to hate us if we don't do as they expect us to ?

You talk of facing reality. I say, WE MAKE OUR OWN. We're not incapable of it, any more than any other non-EU country is. There is nothing 'deficient' in us that makes us incapable of dealing with our own fate in a responsible and profitable manner. However, the 'Remain' people rely on our fearing anything that involves change from the status quo ... as if we have that fictional, imaginary, 'deficiency' encoded into our DNA.

I say: we do not. Time we ruled ourselves, determined our own future, emerged as responsible adults to make our own way in the world ... and forsook the sometimes-dysfunctional playpen of the control-freaking EU !

Yes, I know what you're arguing for. Doesn't mean that it will ever happen.

You talk about freedom. Come off it, what freedom don't you have?

Freedom to have to follow laws from London instead of Brussels? Makes not much difference, does it?

You talk about taking decisions for the people of the UK, er.... hasn't this been happening anyway? Didn't Labour let in a lot of people, and the Tories still letting in a lot of people? And it's mostly non-EU citizens that people are getting annoyed about anyway?

So, how will this change by leaving the EU? The simple answer is, it won't, unless the govt in London does something about it, and they can do something about it while BEING IN THE EU anyway.

Basically, the UK govt goes to Europe and doesn't do a good job, then you expect them to do a good job in the UK......

Again, you're hoping for something that isn't going to happen.

 

[frigidweirdo]

It's a leaving plan. What freedom do you have to make a leaving plan? Quite a lot.

However, if you're suggesting that the Brexit people can't make a leaving plan because they have no idea what the EU is going to do afterwards, you might be right, and it's also a reason why people should seriously be looking at the possibilities.

The Brexit people act like the UK is just going to make trade agreements that are equal to or better than what exists now. Chances are this isn't going to happen. People need to know this.

IF conditions are favorable enough, the UK won't lose half its trade. Wow, that's.... that's...... like jumping off a really high waterfall and hoping to do a perfect 10 dive, chances of survival? 1%.

Yes, spiteful activity. What reason does the EU have to want the UK to do well out of leaving the EU? None. There's no positive for them. They want to see the UK rot, and show all the other countries what happens if you leave the UK. The UK will be the example.

And you want to leave knowing you could lose a lot of trade, causing massive unemployment and problems? You want this?

I've thanked your last post, and for good reason. You've done a lot to acknowledge the true, pernicious, nature of the EU.

'THEY WANT TO SEE THE UK ROT'. H'm. Ever heard of the saying 'With friends like that, who needs enemies' .. ? You concede yourself the malevolent side of EU thinking ... and you insist that we must STILL want to be a part of it ???

Incredible.

Some of us don't want to live our lives ruled, dominated, by foreigners who are perfectly happy to hate our guts, if they find we don't behave as THEY choose us to !!! And I get from your wording that they will happily seize on an opportunity to 'make an example of us', for stepping out of line ? Rather like the Mafia might ... ?

National pride. Seems to me that we have our opportunity to reclaim it, to re-acquaint ourselves with some understanding and experience of some self-respect !! Getting shot of the likes of the EU will serve that aim nicely, it seems to me.

Thank you for making my case for me.

Yes, I know what the EU is, I know it is far from perfect and I don't particularly like it.

However, what would you do if someone wanted to leave and you didn't want to see the break up of your union? I didn't say it would happen, but it's a possibility, why? Because this is human nature. If you were against everything that succumbed to human nature you'd have to go be a hermit.

Some don't want their lives ruled, dominated, by foreigners who hate your guts?
What about the Tories? They're just a bunch of Normans who have hated the English, the Scots, the Welsh etc for a long long time.

You want to get "national pride" back? Is this all it is? It's like having a vote to see if England will win the world cup. Get more than 50% and England get to decide they have won it.

This is all Brexit is. People whose lives are pretty miserable, who think that they'll somehow get better lives outside of the EU, but the reality doesn't suggest this is the case (ie, you won't have more money after leaving, the laws will still be made and people will still not like them), so you just stick to things like Churchill, the flag, pride, and all that nationalistic nonsense that doesn't improve people's lives, it just gives them a reason to get drunk.

No it is like America having a vote to elect a muslim president and then moaning when he wins. It is not Brexit it is freedom to make our own decisions again, to be allowed to deport foreign criminals, stop unwanted migrants and cut our costs at a time the world is losing. Look at the nations that failed under the EU and what they had to do to get out of trouble. Getting safety and security back does improve peoples lives, getting a surplus on the housing market means that people can have a home again and having jobs available means they can get work.

Which decisions does the UK not make, exactly?

I know there are some, but exactly how does it impact the normal person?

What's the difference if the same law is passed in Brussels or London? What difference does that make?

You don't think that immigration has an impact on the availability of jobs to those who originally came from the UK ? And a rather big one, at that ? Seriously ?

'The same law' passed in Brussels surely means that the EU determined its existence, and the degree to which it would be implemented ? This is not self-rule, it is not freedom. This is what's missing from the equation.

June 23rd gives us the chance to remedy that. Not before time, either ...

I think immigration has a big impact.

However I also understand that immigration is a big problem BECAUSE OF THE UK GOVERNMENT.

Look, immigrants are camping outside British borders in France. Why? They can walk into most EU countries without a problem, and yet risk going to the UK. Why not stay in France? Why not stay in Germany? Why not go to the other countries?

Why the UK?

Could it be that the UK Government has fucked things up so badly that it's a magnet for immigrants? And you think leaving the EU will somehow make the UK govt better? I don't get it. Perhaps you can tell me how Cameron will instantly change from being a guy destroying the fabric of the UK, to a good old honest chap the day after the UK leaves the EU.

 

[Drummond]

I've thanked your last post, and for good reason. You've done a lot to acknowledge the true, pernicious, nature of the EU.

'THEY WANT TO SEE THE UK ROT'. H'm. Ever heard of the saying 'With friends like that, who needs enemies' .. ? You concede yourself the malevolent side of EU thinking ... and you insist that we must STILL want to be a part of it ???

Incredible.

Some of us don't want to live our lives ruled, dominated, by foreigners who are perfectly happy to hate our guts, if they find we don't behave as THEY choose us to !!! And I get from your wording that they will happily seize on an opportunity to 'make an example of us', for stepping out of line ? Rather like the Mafia might ... ?

National pride. Seems to me that we have our opportunity to reclaim it, to re-acquaint ourselves with some understanding and experience of some self-respect !! Getting shot of the likes of the EU will serve that aim nicely, it seems to me.

Thank you for making my case for me.

Yes, I know what the EU is, I know it is far from perfect and I don't particularly like it.

However, what would you do if someone wanted to leave and you didn't want to see the break up of your union? I didn't say it would happen, but it's a possibility, why? Because this is human nature. If you were against everything that succumbed to human nature you'd have to go be a hermit.

Some don't want their lives ruled, dominated, by foreigners who hate your guts?
What about the Tories? They're just a bunch of Normans who have hated the English, the Scots, the Welsh etc for a long long time.

You want to get "national pride" back? Is this all it is? It's like having a vote to see if England will win the world cup. Get more than 50% and England get to decide they have won it.

This is all Brexit is. People whose lives are pretty miserable, who think that they'll somehow get better lives outside of the EU, but the reality doesn't suggest this is the case (ie, you won't have more money after leaving, the laws will still be made and people will still not like them), so you just stick to things like Churchill, the flag, pride, and all that nationalistic nonsense that doesn't improve people's lives, it just gives them a reason to get drunk.

Answering 'what would you do if someone wanted to leave and you didn't want to see the break up of your union?' .. I can tell you what I wouldn't do. I'd not behave like some latter-day Hitler, determined to viciously punish a Nation State daring to have the sheer temerity to defy my rule !! And let's say you were talking about a 'union', i.e a TRADE Union. Do such Unions punish members who decide to be ex-members, or do they just accept it ?

Perhaps, instead of 'punishing', they attempt instead to make membership too attractive an option to defy ? Rather than just meting out a whole lot of nastiness ....

... still. This IS the EU we're really talking about ... !!! ......

What about the Tories, you say. I echo the question. What ABOUT them ? Since when were they relevant, in the sense being examined in this thread .. apart from allowing us a Referendum in the first place ? The pros and cons of EU membership aren't characterised by your personal assessment of the British Conservative Party !!

I see nothing wrong with national pride. WHY DO YOU ? Why, in your universe, is this any form of lamentable thing ? Doesn't the UK have a right to pride ? To a feeling of self-worth ? As well as being subsumed under the dictatorship of the EU, must we bury our sense of identity, too, and consider it worthless ? Is THIS what you expect ???

If, by your reckoning, 'Brexiters' lead miserable lives .. they currently do so whilst under the dominion of the EU. What does that say for the worth of our existence as members ?? Perhaps ... the key to improving their lives (and everyone else's on this side of the Channel) would be to regain national pride. National identity. FREEDOM to rule OURSELVES, forge our OWN path ... ? Is that really so terrible, is it too lamentable a path to dare to tread ??

You call nationalism 'nonsense'. Indeed ? OK, expand it to a future where the EU has realised its dream and become a single, indivisible political entity. Should it feel 'guilty' about pride in its own identity ? Would you disapprove of it, if it did feel such 'pride' ? Fact is that your dismisiveness towards 'nonsense nationalism' is no more than a convenient device you're employing to shift emotionalism to a direction of your choosing. I say this: the UK has a right to exist, feel pride in itself, work towards self rule, work towards its political freedom from a political entity that, as you've said yourself, would be happy to see us rot if we did too much to defy it !!

Your remaining argumentation relies on scaremongering, and sapping our confidence in ourselves to succeed on our own merits (which is insulting, isn't it ?). You've no basis for supposing we are incapable of thriving outside of the EU. Other countries manage it ... so can we.

Maybe you wouldn't, but the politicians might. The leaving of Scotland would be far less dangerous for the UK than the UK leaving the EU. That doesn't mean, for example, that the Tories would try and pull some stunt like that.

Look at what the Tories DID DO.

Scotland could get ‘revenge’ for broken referendum promises, says Salmond

"First minister says a ‘huge gap’ has opened between what was promised by Westminster leaders and command paper"

"“Right now, the initial judgment that’s coming from Scotland is that people have no confidence in Tory guarantees and are absolutely fizzing about what looks like a preparation for a betrayal of a strong commitment made.”"

Boris slams 'reckless' election promises to Scotland

"
Boris slams 'reckless' election promises to Scotland as Cameron calls for a 'fair settlement' for all UK nations"

Now, you can complain about the EU, I understand the point you're making, but you're merely taking some power away from one group of untrustworthy politicians and giving to another group of untrustworthy politicians.

I'll make the assumption that you're English (though I could be wrong) and while Cameron is English, he doesn't necessarily stand up for every English person, in fact he's a bit elitist, trying to destroy the NHS, education going down the pan, public services simply not being what they should be, all because the rich want to save themselves a bit of money.

So, moving from the EU which is a bunch of foreigners, to Cameron and his buddies, I'm sort of failing to see how you benefit from this.

I totally agree with your point that they should make membership attractive to the members. The thing is, from someone who was in youth politics, and a short while in adult politics, you see the sort of people that politics attracts, and they're not the sort of people you want running your country.

Hence my argument. You go from politicians in Brussels to politicians in London, and to be honest I don't see the difference much. Fine, in London they've been elected by the people, then again the people don't seem to have much sense for what makes a good politician either. You elect people to the EU who don't do much for us within the EU, you elect people to Westminster who also don't do much for the UK within the EU.

So, leaving the EU won't get sovereignty back, won't make things better, as you'll still have politicians in charge.

As for your question about the relevance of the Tories, I believe I answered this before.

I don't see anything wrong with national pride, unless national pride gets in the way of national reality. I see what people like Milosevic, those in Rwanada, in China, in the US, in Argentina (over the Falklands for example) where national pride gets in the way of sensible thinking and causes a lot of problems.

When it is pride that complements reality, then it's great, but it's not always the case, and the Brexit situation doesn't seem to be about pride AND reality, but pride OVER reality.

Identity is an important part, and in many ways I agree with those of the Tory/UKIP camp when it comes to dealing strongly with immigration. I've lived in countries with tough immigration laws, almost impossible permanent immigration laws, all foreigners are living on one or two years at a time. I have no problem with this. I think identity is something that should be promoted and protected.

It's not just Brexit people who lead miserable lives. Lots of people lead miserable lives and they look to politics, sometimes, to give them hope. Obama stood on a platform of hope and won. Trump is throwing hope out to the people without much in the way of policies, people go through stages of life where hope dwindles, they're not young, they work all the time, they're busy, not much to look forward to or hope for, and they cling to things. As Obama once said, people clinging to their guns, in the UK people are clinging to leaving the EU is one way people give hope. Football is another European example.

Farage is a politician with charisma, people like charisma and they'll look to that over substance. Farage gave people this hope, but he lost in the GE big time, and he's latched on to the referendum in order to make this about Farage, and he's pushing it for all it's worth and people WANT TO BELIEVE.



But what you're arguing is nationalism over the economy, nationalism over people's lives, people's ability to spend money to go on holiday, or to upgrade things in their lives. Is Nationalism more important than your pocket?

What I'm arguing for is freedom. Freedom to shake off the domineering EU once and for all. Regardless of your quibbling about what occurs within the UK's borders, at least those Parties you mention ARE operating within the UK's borders, taking decisions for people within the UK. What you're fighting for is an ever-greater reduction of that, over time.

You disparagingly say ... 'in London they've been elected by the people, then again the people don't seem to have much sense for what makes a good politician either.'. This is more of your 'we aren't fit to govern ourselves' argumentation. You are so centred on power being taken away from the peoples of the UK !!

What's wrong with having the hope that you acquire freedom, and from people prepared to hate us if we don't do as they expect us to ?

You talk of facing reality. I say, WE MAKE OUR OWN. We're not incapable of it, any more than any other non-EU country is. There is nothing 'deficient' in us that makes us incapable of dealing with our own fate in a responsible and profitable manner. However, the 'Remain' people rely on our fearing anything that involves change from the status quo ... as if we have that fictional, imaginary, 'deficiency' encoded into our DNA.

I say: we do not. Time we ruled ourselves, determined our own future, emerged as responsible adults to make our own way in the world ... and forsook the sometimes-dysfunctional playpen of the control-freaking EU !

Yes, I know what you're arguing for. Doesn't mean that it will ever happen.

You talk about freedom. Come off it, what freedom don't you have?

Freedom to have to follow laws from London instead of Brussels? Makes not much difference, does it?

You talk about taking decisions for the people of the UK, er.... hasn't this been happening anyway? Didn't Labour let in a lot of people, and the Tories still letting in a lot of people? And it's mostly non-EU citizens that people are getting annoyed about anyway?

So, how will this change by leaving the EU? The simple answer is, it won't, unless the govt in London does something about it, and they can do something about it while BEING IN THE EU anyway.

Basically, the UK govt goes to Europe and doesn't do a good job, then you expect them to do a good job in the UK......

Again, you're hoping for something that isn't going to happen.

You say ... 'You talk about freedom. Come off it, what freedom don't you have? Freedom to have to follow laws from London instead of Brussels? Makes not much difference, does it?'

Is this a joke ?? It makes all the difference in the world, between the freedom to totally determine our own laws, and have them decided upon instead by - primarily, anyway - foreigners !!

We might have ONE contributing vote between a couple of dozen ! That's not nearly good enough, in 'autonomy' terms.

Our votes get watered down by all those others from competing powers. Get shot of the EU ... we likewise get shot of that interference. Simple !

 

[Phoenall]

What possible freedom do we have for trying to implement any 'plan', for as long as the EU dictates to us ?? We DO NOT HAVE THE FREEDOM to actively plan, as yet. No doubt if we tried, the EU would try to punish us for it ...

Besides, in general terms, it's obvious. One, IF the conditions are favourable enough, we can continue to trade with EU countries. However, we have yet to see how nasty Member States would want to be, how they'd try to punish us, if we successfully obtained our freedom.

The extent of such spiteful activity would determine the extent of our trade with others. It's not as though the rest of the world doesn't exist .. it does. We can, two, trade with it, determining OUR terms for doing so. BUT, only if we're shot of the EU !!

It's a leaving plan. What freedom do you have to make a leaving plan? Quite a lot.

However, if you're suggesting that the Brexit people can't make a leaving plan because they have no idea what the EU is going to do afterwards, you might be right, and it's also a reason why people should seriously be looking at the possibilities.

The Brexit people act like the UK is just going to make trade agreements that are equal to or better than what exists now. Chances are this isn't going to happen. People need to know this.

IF conditions are favorable enough, the UK won't lose half its trade. Wow, that's.... that's...... like jumping off a really high waterfall and hoping to do a perfect 10 dive, chances of survival? 1%.

Yes, spiteful activity. What reason does the EU have to want the UK to do well out of leaving the EU? None. There's no positive for them. They want to see the UK rot, and show all the other countries what happens if you leave the UK. The UK will be the example.

And you want to leave knowing you could lose a lot of trade, causing massive unemployment and problems? You want this?

I've thanked your last post, and for good reason. You've done a lot to acknowledge the true, pernicious, nature of the EU.

'THEY WANT TO SEE THE UK ROT'. H'm. Ever heard of the saying 'With friends like that, who needs enemies' .. ? You concede yourself the malevolent side of EU thinking ... and you insist that we must STILL want to be a part of it ???

Incredible.

Some of us don't want to live our lives ruled, dominated, by foreigners who are perfectly happy to hate our guts, if they find we don't behave as THEY choose us to !!! And I get from your wording that they will happily seize on an opportunity to 'make an example of us', for stepping out of line ? Rather like the Mafia might ... ?

National pride. Seems to me that we have our opportunity to reclaim it, to re-acquaint ourselves with some understanding and experience of some self-respect !! Getting shot of the likes of the EU will serve that aim nicely, it seems to me.

Thank you for making my case for me.

Yes, I know what the EU is, I know it is far from perfect and I don't particularly like it.

However, what would you do if someone wanted to leave and you didn't want to see the break up of your union? I didn't say it would happen, but it's a possibility, why? Because this is human nature. If you were against everything that succumbed to human nature you'd have to go be a hermit.

Some don't want their lives ruled, dominated, by foreigners who hate your guts?
What about the Tories? They're just a bunch of Normans who have hated the English, the Scots, the Welsh etc for a long long time.

You want to get "national pride" back? Is this all it is? It's like having a vote to see if England will win the world cup. Get more than 50% and England get to decide they have won it.

This is all Brexit is. People whose lives are pretty miserable, who think that they'll somehow get better lives outside of the EU, but the reality doesn't suggest this is the case (ie, you won't have more money after leaving, the laws will still be made and people will still not like them), so you just stick to things like Churchill, the flag, pride, and all that nationalistic nonsense that doesn't improve people's lives, it just gives them a reason to get drunk.

Answering 'what would you do if someone wanted to leave and you didn't want to see the break up of your union?' .. I can tell you what I wouldn't do. I'd not behave like some latter-day Hitler, determined to viciously punish a Nation State daring to have the sheer temerity to defy my rule !! And let's say you were talking about a 'union', i.e a TRADE Union. Do such Unions punish members who decide to be ex-members, or do they just accept it ?

Perhaps, instead of 'punishing', they attempt instead to make membership too attractive an option to defy ? Rather than just meting out a whole lot of nastiness ....

... still. This IS the EU we're really talking about ... !!! ......

What about the Tories, you say. I echo the question. What ABOUT them ? Since when were they relevant, in the sense being examined in this thread .. apart from allowing us a Referendum in the first place ? The pros and cons of EU membership aren't characterised by your personal assessment of the British Conservative Party !!

I see nothing wrong with national pride. WHY DO YOU ? Why, in your universe, is this any form of lamentable thing ? Doesn't the UK have a right to pride ? To a feeling of self-worth ? As well as being subsumed under the dictatorship of the EU, must we bury our sense of identity, too, and consider it worthless ? Is THIS what you expect ???

If, by your reckoning, 'Brexiters' lead miserable lives .. they currently do so whilst under the dominion of the EU. What does that say for the worth of our existence as members ?? Perhaps ... the key to improving their lives (and everyone else's on this side of the Channel) would be to regain national pride. National identity. FREEDOM to rule OURSELVES, forge our OWN path ... ? Is that really so terrible, is it too lamentable a path to dare to tread ??

You call nationalism 'nonsense'. Indeed ? OK, expand it to a future where the EU has realised its dream and become a single, indivisible political entity. Should it feel 'guilty' about pride in its own identity ? Would you disapprove of it, if it did feel such 'pride' ? Fact is that your dismisiveness towards 'nonsense nationalism' is no more than a convenient device you're employing to shift emotionalism to a direction of your choosing. I say this: the UK has a right to exist, feel pride in itself, work towards self rule, work towards its political freedom from a political entity that, as you've said yourself, would be happy to see us rot if we did too much to defy it !!

Your remaining argumentation relies on scaremongering, and sapping our confidence in ourselves to succeed on our own merits (which is insulting, isn't it ?). You've no basis for supposing we are incapable of thriving outside of the EU. Other countries manage it ... so can we.

Maybe you wouldn't, but the politicians might. The leaving of Scotland would be far less dangerous for the UK than the UK leaving the EU. That doesn't mean, for example, that the Tories would try and pull some stunt like that.

Look at what the Tories DID DO.

Scotland could get ‘revenge’ for broken referendum promises, says Salmond

"First minister says a ‘huge gap’ has opened between what was promised by Westminster leaders and command paper"

"“Right now, the initial judgment that’s coming from Scotland is that people have no confidence in Tory guarantees and are absolutely fizzing about what looks like a preparation for a betrayal of a strong commitment made.”"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-powers-English-MPs-bid-head-Tory-revolt.html

"
Boris slams 'reckless' election promises to Scotland as Cameron calls for a 'fair settlement' for all UK nations"

Now, you can complain about the EU, I understand the point you're making, but you're merely taking some power away from one group of untrustworthy politicians and giving to another group of untrustworthy politicians.

I'll make the assumption that you're English (though I could be wrong) and while Cameron is English, he doesn't necessarily stand up for every English person, in fact he's a bit elitist, trying to destroy the NHS, education going down the pan, public services simply not being what they should be, all because the rich want to save themselves a bit of money.

So, moving from the EU which is a bunch of foreigners, to Cameron and his buddies, I'm sort of failing to see how you benefit from this.

I totally agree with your point that they should make membership attractive to the members. The thing is, from someone who was in youth politics, and a short while in adult politics, you see the sort of people that politics attracts, and they're not the sort of people you want running your country.

Hence my argument. You go from politicians in Brussels to politicians in London, and to be honest I don't see the difference much. Fine, in London they've been elected by the people, then again the people don't seem to have much sense for what makes a good politician either. You elect people to the EU who don't do much for us within the EU, you elect people to Westminster who also don't do much for the UK within the EU.

So, leaving the EU won't get sovereignty back, won't make things better, as you'll still have politicians in charge.

As for your question about the relevance of the Tories, I believe I answered this before.

I don't see anything wrong with national pride, unless national pride gets in the way of national reality. I see what people like Milosevic, those in Rwanada, in China, in the US, in Argentina (over the Falklands for example) where national pride gets in the way of sensible thinking and causes a lot of problems.

When it is pride that complements reality, then it's great, but it's not always the case, and the Brexit situation doesn't seem to be about pride AND reality, but pride OVER reality.

Identity is an important part, and in many ways I agree with those of the Tory/UKIP camp when it comes to dealing strongly with immigration. I've lived in countries with tough immigration laws, almost impossible permanent immigration laws, all foreigners are living on one or two years at a time. I have no problem with this. I think identity is something that should be promoted and protected.

It's not just Brexit people who lead miserable lives. Lots of people lead miserable lives and they look to politics, sometimes, to give them hope. Obama stood on a platform of hope and won. Trump is throwing hope out to the people without much in the way of policies, people go through stages of life where hope dwindles, they're not young, they work all the time, they're busy, not much to look forward to or hope for, and they cling to things. As Obama once said, people clinging to their guns, in the UK people are clinging to leaving the EU is one way people give hope. Football is another European example.

Farage is a politician with charisma, people like charisma and they'll look to that over substance. Farage gave people this hope, but he lost in the GE big time, and he's latched on to the referendum in order to make this about Farage, and he's pushing it for all it's worth and people WANT TO BELIEVE.



But what you're arguing is nationalism over the economy, nationalism over people's lives, people's ability to spend money to go on holiday, or to upgrade things in their lives. Is Nationalism more important than your pocket?

No broken promises at all, just the SNP not reading the documents properly. They said more devolved power with a corresponding cut in monies, not the same monies and also the right to set their own taxes. Just sour grapes on the Scots side that amount to immature foot stomping.


Staying in the EU will cost a lot more than our national pride if we stay as Europes dumping ground for the bad apples.

 

[Phoenall]

I've thanked your last post, and for good reason. You've done a lot to acknowledge the true, pernicious, nature of the EU.

'THEY WANT TO SEE THE UK ROT'. H'm. Ever heard of the saying 'With friends like that, who needs enemies' .. ? You concede yourself the malevolent side of EU thinking ... and you insist that we must STILL want to be a part of it ???

Incredible.

Some of us don't want to live our lives ruled, dominated, by foreigners who are perfectly happy to hate our guts, if they find we don't behave as THEY choose us to !!! And I get from your wording that they will happily seize on an opportunity to 'make an example of us', for stepping out of line ? Rather like the Mafia might ... ?

National pride. Seems to me that we have our opportunity to reclaim it, to re-acquaint ourselves with some understanding and experience of some self-respect !! Getting shot of the likes of the EU will serve that aim nicely, it seems to me.

Thank you for making my case for me.

Yes, I know what the EU is, I know it is far from perfect and I don't particularly like it.

However, what would you do if someone wanted to leave and you didn't want to see the break up of your union? I didn't say it would happen, but it's a possibility, why? Because this is human nature. If you were against everything that succumbed to human nature you'd have to go be a hermit.

Some don't want their lives ruled, dominated, by foreigners who hate your guts?
What about the Tories? They're just a bunch of Normans who have hated the English, the Scots, the Welsh etc for a long long time.

You want to get "national pride" back? Is this all it is? It's like having a vote to see if England will win the world cup. Get more than 50% and England get to decide they have won it.

This is all Brexit is. People whose lives are pretty miserable, who think that they'll somehow get better lives outside of the EU, but the reality doesn't suggest this is the case (ie, you won't have more money after leaving, the laws will still be made and people will still not like them), so you just stick to things like Churchill, the flag, pride, and all that nationalistic nonsense that doesn't improve people's lives, it just gives them a reason to get drunk.

No it is like America having a vote to elect a muslim president and then moaning when he wins. It is not Brexit it is freedom to make our own decisions again, to be allowed to deport foreign criminals, stop unwanted migrants and cut our costs at a time the world is losing. Look at the nations that failed under the EU and what they had to do to get out of trouble. Getting safety and security back does improve peoples lives, getting a surplus on the housing market means that people can have a home again and having jobs available means they can get work.

Which decisions does the UK not make, exactly?

I know there are some, but exactly how does it impact the normal person?

What's the difference if the same law is passed in Brussels or London? What difference does that make?

You don't think that immigration has an impact on the availability of jobs to those who originally came from the UK ? And a rather big one, at that ? Seriously ?

'The same law' passed in Brussels surely means that the EU determined its existence, and the degree to which it would be implemented ? This is not self-rule, it is not freedom. This is what's missing from the equation.

June 23rd gives us the chance to remedy that. Not before time, either ...

I think immigration has a big impact.

However I also understand that immigration is a big problem BECAUSE OF THE UK GOVERNMENT.

Look, immigrants are camping outside British borders in France. Why? They can walk into most EU countries without a problem, and yet risk going to the UK. Why not stay in France? Why not stay in Germany? Why not go to the other countries?

Why the UK?

Could it be that the UK Government has fucked things up so badly that it's a magnet for immigrants? And you think leaving the EU will somehow make the UK govt better? I don't get it. Perhaps you can tell me how Cameron will instantly change from being a guy destroying the fabric of the UK, to a good old honest chap the day after the UK leaves the EU.

Because the EU pulled the rug from under our feet when they passed laws on welfare rights for migrants. And it was during the neo Marxists watch that this happened. They gave away our gold and signed for the EU to have more say in our affairs so they could stay in power. Now we as a nation are suffering, and Labour are hanging on the shirt tails of the leave campaign. If you notice Corbyn changes his mind about staying or leaving as often as he changes his socks.

 

[Mindful]

Here's an alternative:

Brexit to Brentrance: Why Britain Should Switch Membership from the EU for the EEU

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes, I know what the EU is, I know it is far from perfect and I don't particularly like it.

However, what would you do if someone wanted to leave and you didn't want to see the break up of your union? I didn't say it would happen, but it's a possibility, why? Because this is human nature. If you were against everything that succumbed to human nature you'd have to go be a hermit.

Some don't want their lives ruled, dominated, by foreigners who hate your guts?
What about the Tories? They're just a bunch of Normans who have hated the English, the Scots, the Welsh etc for a long long time.

You want to get "national pride" back? Is this all it is? It's like having a vote to see if England will win the world cup. Get more than 50% and England get to decide they have won it.

This is all Brexit is. People whose lives are pretty miserable, who think that they'll somehow get better lives outside of the EU, but the reality doesn't suggest this is the case (ie, you won't have more money after leaving, the laws will still be made and people will still not like them), so you just stick to things like Churchill, the flag, pride, and all that nationalistic nonsense that doesn't improve people's lives, it just gives them a reason to get drunk.

Answering 'what would you do if someone wanted to leave and you didn't want to see the break up of your union?' .. I can tell you what I wouldn't do. I'd not behave like some latter-day Hitler, determined to viciously punish a Nation State daring to have the sheer temerity to defy my rule !! And let's say you were talking about a 'union', i.e a TRADE Union. Do such Unions punish members who decide to be ex-members, or do they just accept it ?

Perhaps, instead of 'punishing', they attempt instead to make membership too attractive an option to defy ? Rather than just meting out a whole lot of nastiness ....

... still. This IS the EU we're really talking about ... !!! ......

What about the Tories, you say. I echo the question. What ABOUT them ? Since when were they relevant, in the sense being examined in this thread .. apart from allowing us a Referendum in the first place ? The pros and cons of EU membership aren't characterised by your personal assessment of the British Conservative Party !!

I see nothing wrong with national pride. WHY DO YOU ? Why, in your universe, is this any form of lamentable thing ? Doesn't the UK have a right to pride ? To a feeling of self-worth ? As well as being subsumed under the dictatorship of the EU, must we bury our sense of identity, too, and consider it worthless ? Is THIS what you expect ???

If, by your reckoning, 'Brexiters' lead miserable lives .. they currently do so whilst under the dominion of the EU. What does that say for the worth of our existence as members ?? Perhaps ... the key to improving their lives (and everyone else's on this side of the Channel) would be to regain national pride. National identity. FREEDOM to rule OURSELVES, forge our OWN path ... ? Is that really so terrible, is it too lamentable a path to dare to tread ??

You call nationalism 'nonsense'. Indeed ? OK, expand it to a future where the EU has realised its dream and become a single, indivisible political entity. Should it feel 'guilty' about pride in its own identity ? Would you disapprove of it, if it did feel such 'pride' ? Fact is that your dismisiveness towards 'nonsense nationalism' is no more than a convenient device you're employing to shift emotionalism to a direction of your choosing. I say this: the UK has a right to exist, feel pride in itself, work towards self rule, work towards its political freedom from a political entity that, as you've said yourself, would be happy to see us rot if we did too much to defy it !!

Your remaining argumentation relies on scaremongering, and sapping our confidence in ourselves to succeed on our own merits (which is insulting, isn't it ?). You've no basis for supposing we are incapable of thriving outside of the EU. Other countries manage it ... so can we.

Maybe you wouldn't, but the politicians might. The leaving of Scotland would be far less dangerous for the UK than the UK leaving the EU. That doesn't mean, for example, that the Tories would try and pull some stunt like that.

Look at what the Tories DID DO.

Scotland could get ‘revenge’ for broken referendum promises, says Salmond

"First minister says a ‘huge gap’ has opened between what was promised by Westminster leaders and command paper"

"“Right now, the initial judgment that’s coming from Scotland is that people have no confidence in Tory guarantees and are absolutely fizzing about what looks like a preparation for a betrayal of a strong commitment made.”"

Boris slams 'reckless' election promises to Scotland

"
Boris slams 'reckless' election promises to Scotland as Cameron calls for a 'fair settlement' for all UK nations"

Now, you can complain about the EU, I understand the point you're making, but you're merely taking some power away from one group of untrustworthy politicians and giving to another group of untrustworthy politicians.

I'll make the assumption that you're English (though I could be wrong) and while Cameron is English, he doesn't necessarily stand up for every English person, in fact he's a bit elitist, trying to destroy the NHS, education going down the pan, public services simply not being what they should be, all because the rich want to save themselves a bit of money.

So, moving from the EU which is a bunch of foreigners, to Cameron and his buddies, I'm sort of failing to see how you benefit from this.

I totally agree with your point that they should make membership attractive to the members. The thing is, from someone who was in youth politics, and a short while in adult politics, you see the sort of people that politics attracts, and they're not the sort of people you want running your country.

Hence my argument. You go from politicians in Brussels to politicians in London, and to be honest I don't see the difference much. Fine, in London they've been elected by the people, then again the people don't seem to have much sense for what makes a good politician either. You elect people to the EU who don't do much for us within the EU, you elect people to Westminster who also don't do much for the UK within the EU.

So, leaving the EU won't get sovereignty back, won't make things better, as you'll still have politicians in charge.

As for your question about the relevance of the Tories, I believe I answered this before.

I don't see anything wrong with national pride, unless national pride gets in the way of national reality. I see what people like Milosevic, those in Rwanada, in China, in the US, in Argentina (over the Falklands for example) where national pride gets in the way of sensible thinking and causes a lot of problems.

When it is pride that complements reality, then it's great, but it's not always the case, and the Brexit situation doesn't seem to be about pride AND reality, but pride OVER reality.

Identity is an important part, and in many ways I agree with those of the Tory/UKIP camp when it comes to dealing strongly with immigration. I've lived in countries with tough immigration laws, almost impossible permanent immigration laws, all foreigners are living on one or two years at a time. I have no problem with this. I think identity is something that should be promoted and protected.

It's not just Brexit people who lead miserable lives. Lots of people lead miserable lives and they look to politics, sometimes, to give them hope. Obama stood on a platform of hope and won. Trump is throwing hope out to the people without much in the way of policies, people go through stages of life where hope dwindles, they're not young, they work all the time, they're busy, not much to look forward to or hope for, and they cling to things. As Obama once said, people clinging to their guns, in the UK people are clinging to leaving the EU is one way people give hope. Football is another European example.

Farage is a politician with charisma, people like charisma and they'll look to that over substance. Farage gave people this hope, but he lost in the GE big time, and he's latched on to the referendum in order to make this about Farage, and he's pushing it for all it's worth and people WANT TO BELIEVE.



But what you're arguing is nationalism over the economy, nationalism over people's lives, people's ability to spend money to go on holiday, or to upgrade things in their lives. Is Nationalism more important than your pocket?

What I'm arguing for is freedom. Freedom to shake off the domineering EU once and for all. Regardless of your quibbling about what occurs within the UK's borders, at least those Parties you mention ARE operating within the UK's borders, taking decisions for people within the UK. What you're fighting for is an ever-greater reduction of that, over time.

You disparagingly say ... 'in London they've been elected by the people, then again the people don't seem to have much sense for what makes a good politician either.'. This is more of your 'we aren't fit to govern ourselves' argumentation. You are so centred on power being taken away from the peoples of the UK !!

What's wrong with having the hope that you acquire freedom, and from people prepared to hate us if we don't do as they expect us to ?

You talk of facing reality. I say, WE MAKE OUR OWN. We're not incapable of it, any more than any other non-EU country is. There is nothing 'deficient' in us that makes us incapable of dealing with our own fate in a responsible and profitable manner. However, the 'Remain' people rely on our fearing anything that involves change from the status quo ... as if we have that fictional, imaginary, 'deficiency' encoded into our DNA.

I say: we do not. Time we ruled ourselves, determined our own future, emerged as responsible adults to make our own way in the world ... and forsook the sometimes-dysfunctional playpen of the control-freaking EU !

Yes, I know what you're arguing for. Doesn't mean that it will ever happen.

You talk about freedom. Come off it, what freedom don't you have?

Freedom to have to follow laws from London instead of Brussels? Makes not much difference, does it?

You talk about taking decisions for the people of the UK, er.... hasn't this been happening anyway? Didn't Labour let in a lot of people, and the Tories still letting in a lot of people? And it's mostly non-EU citizens that people are getting annoyed about anyway?

So, how will this change by leaving the EU? The simple answer is, it won't, unless the govt in London does something about it, and they can do something about it while BEING IN THE EU anyway.

Basically, the UK govt goes to Europe and doesn't do a good job, then you expect them to do a good job in the UK......

Again, you're hoping for something that isn't going to happen.

You say ... 'You talk about freedom. Come off it, what freedom don't you have? Freedom to have to follow laws from London instead of Brussels? Makes not much difference, does it?'

Is this a joke ?? It makes all the difference in the world, between the freedom to totally determine our own laws, and have them decided upon instead by - primarily, anyway - foreigners !!

We might have ONE contributing vote between a couple of dozen ! That's not nearly good enough, in 'autonomy' terms.

Our votes get watered down by all those others from competing powers. Get shot of the EU ... we likewise get shot of that interference. Simple !

Again, I've said this before. YOU don't make your laws. The politicians do.

Also, the EU doesn't have a police force, ALL implementation is done by the government at home anyway.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes, I know what the EU is, I know it is far from perfect and I don't particularly like it.

However, what would you do if someone wanted to leave and you didn't want to see the break up of your union? I didn't say it would happen, but it's a possibility, why? Because this is human nature. If you were against everything that succumbed to human nature you'd have to go be a hermit.

Some don't want their lives ruled, dominated, by foreigners who hate your guts?
What about the Tories? They're just a bunch of Normans who have hated the English, the Scots, the Welsh etc for a long long time.

You want to get "national pride" back? Is this all it is? It's like having a vote to see if England will win the world cup. Get more than 50% and England get to decide they have won it.

This is all Brexit is. People whose lives are pretty miserable, who think that they'll somehow get better lives outside of the EU, but the reality doesn't suggest this is the case (ie, you won't have more money after leaving, the laws will still be made and people will still not like them), so you just stick to things like Churchill, the flag, pride, and all that nationalistic nonsense that doesn't improve people's lives, it just gives them a reason to get drunk.

No it is like America having a vote to elect a muslim president and then moaning when he wins. It is not Brexit it is freedom to make our own decisions again, to be allowed to deport foreign criminals, stop unwanted migrants and cut our costs at a time the world is losing. Look at the nations that failed under the EU and what they had to do to get out of trouble. Getting safety and security back does improve peoples lives, getting a surplus on the housing market means that people can have a home again and having jobs available means they can get work.

Which decisions does the UK not make, exactly?

I know there are some, but exactly how does it impact the normal person?

What's the difference if the same law is passed in Brussels or London? What difference does that make?

You don't think that immigration has an impact on the availability of jobs to those who originally came from the UK ? And a rather big one, at that ? Seriously ?

'The same law' passed in Brussels surely means that the EU determined its existence, and the degree to which it would be implemented ? This is not self-rule, it is not freedom. This is what's missing from the equation.

June 23rd gives us the chance to remedy that. Not before time, either ...

I think immigration has a big impact.

However I also understand that immigration is a big problem BECAUSE OF THE UK GOVERNMENT.

Look, immigrants are camping outside British borders in France. Why? They can walk into most EU countries without a problem, and yet risk going to the UK. Why not stay in France? Why not stay in Germany? Why not go to the other countries?

Why the UK?

Could it be that the UK Government has fucked things up so badly that it's a magnet for immigrants? And you think leaving the EU will somehow make the UK govt better? I don't get it. Perhaps you can tell me how Cameron will instantly change from being a guy destroying the fabric of the UK, to a good old honest chap the day after the UK leaves the EU.

Because the EU pulled the rug from under our feet when they passed laws on welfare rights for migrants. And it was during the neo Marxists watch that this happened. They gave away our gold and signed for the EU to have more say in our affairs so they could stay in power. Now we as a nation are suffering, and Labour are hanging on the shirt tails of the leave campaign. If you notice Corbyn changes his mind about staying or leaving as often as he changes his socks.

So, again, how is it that only the UK seems to have welfare laws that the immigrants love, while everyone else seems to not have such laws?

No, the reality is this is about UK welfare laws, NOT EU welfare laws.

 

[Mindful]

No it is like America having a vote to elect a muslim president and then moaning when he wins. It is not Brexit it is freedom to make our own decisions again, to be allowed to deport foreign criminals, stop unwanted migrants and cut our costs at a time the world is losing. Look at the nations that failed under the EU and what they had to do to get out of trouble. Getting safety and security back does improve peoples lives, getting a surplus on the housing market means that people can have a home again and having jobs available means they can get work.

Which decisions does the UK not make, exactly?

I know there are some, but exactly how does it impact the normal person?

What's the difference if the same law is passed in Brussels or London? What difference does that make?

You don't think that immigration has an impact on the availability of jobs to those who originally came from the UK ? And a rather big one, at that ? Seriously ?

'The same law' passed in Brussels surely means that the EU determined its existence, and the degree to which it would be implemented ? This is not self-rule, it is not freedom. This is what's missing from the equation.

June 23rd gives us the chance to remedy that. Not before time, either ...

I think immigration has a big impact.

However I also understand that immigration is a big problem BECAUSE OF THE UK GOVERNMENT.

Look, immigrants are camping outside British borders in France. Why? They can walk into most EU countries without a problem, and yet risk going to the UK. Why not stay in France? Why not stay in Germany? Why not go to the other countries?

Why the UK?

Could it be that the UK Government has fucked things up so badly that it's a magnet for immigrants? And you think leaving the EU will somehow make the UK govt better? I don't get it. Perhaps you can tell me how Cameron will instantly change from being a guy destroying the fabric of the UK, to a good old honest chap the day after the UK leaves the EU.

Because the EU pulled the rug from under our feet when they passed laws on welfare rights for migrants. And it was during the neo Marxists watch that this happened. They gave away our gold and signed for the EU to have more say in our affairs so they could stay in power. Now we as a nation are suffering, and Labour are hanging on the shirt tails of the leave campaign. If you notice Corbyn changes his mind about staying or leaving as often as he changes his socks.

So, again, how is it that only the UK seems to have welfare laws that the immigrants love, while everyone else seems to not have such laws?

No, the reality is this is about UK welfare laws, NOT EU welfare laws.

Good question.

 

[Drummond]

Answering 'what would you do if someone wanted to leave and you didn't want to see the break up of your union?' .. I can tell you what I wouldn't do. I'd not behave like some latter-day Hitler, determined to viciously punish a Nation State daring to have the sheer temerity to defy my rule !! And let's say you were talking about a 'union', i.e a TRADE Union. Do such Unions punish members who decide to be ex-members, or do they just accept it ?

Perhaps, instead of 'punishing', they attempt instead to make membership too attractive an option to defy ? Rather than just meting out a whole lot of nastiness ....

... still. This IS the EU we're really talking about ... !!! ......

What about the Tories, you say. I echo the question. What ABOUT them ? Since when were they relevant, in the sense being examined in this thread .. apart from allowing us a Referendum in the first place ? The pros and cons of EU membership aren't characterised by your personal assessment of the British Conservative Party !!

I see nothing wrong with national pride. WHY DO YOU ? Why, in your universe, is this any form of lamentable thing ? Doesn't the UK have a right to pride ? To a feeling of self-worth ? As well as being subsumed under the dictatorship of the EU, must we bury our sense of identity, too, and consider it worthless ? Is THIS what you expect ???

If, by your reckoning, 'Brexiters' lead miserable lives .. they currently do so whilst under the dominion of the EU. What does that say for the worth of our existence as members ?? Perhaps ... the key to improving their lives (and everyone else's on this side of the Channel) would be to regain national pride. National identity. FREEDOM to rule OURSELVES, forge our OWN path ... ? Is that really so terrible, is it too lamentable a path to dare to tread ??

You call nationalism 'nonsense'. Indeed ? OK, expand it to a future where the EU has realised its dream and become a single, indivisible political entity. Should it feel 'guilty' about pride in its own identity ? Would you disapprove of it, if it did feel such 'pride' ? Fact is that your dismisiveness towards 'nonsense nationalism' is no more than a convenient device you're employing to shift emotionalism to a direction of your choosing. I say this: the UK has a right to exist, feel pride in itself, work towards self rule, work towards its political freedom from a political entity that, as you've said yourself, would be happy to see us rot if we did too much to defy it !!

Your remaining argumentation relies on scaremongering, and sapping our confidence in ourselves to succeed on our own merits (which is insulting, isn't it ?). You've no basis for supposing we are incapable of thriving outside of the EU. Other countries manage it ... so can we.

Maybe you wouldn't, but the politicians might. The leaving of Scotland would be far less dangerous for the UK than the UK leaving the EU. That doesn't mean, for example, that the Tories would try and pull some stunt like that.

Look at what the Tories DID DO.

Scotland could get ‘revenge’ for broken referendum promises, says Salmond

"First minister says a ‘huge gap’ has opened between what was promised by Westminster leaders and command paper"

"“Right now, the initial judgment that’s coming from Scotland is that people have no confidence in Tory guarantees and are absolutely fizzing about what looks like a preparation for a betrayal of a strong commitment made.”"

Boris slams 'reckless' election promises to Scotland

"
Boris slams 'reckless' election promises to Scotland as Cameron calls for a 'fair settlement' for all UK nations"

Now, you can complain about the EU, I understand the point you're making, but you're merely taking some power away from one group of untrustworthy politicians and giving to another group of untrustworthy politicians.

I'll make the assumption that you're English (though I could be wrong) and while Cameron is English, he doesn't necessarily stand up for every English person, in fact he's a bit elitist, trying to destroy the NHS, education going down the pan, public services simply not being what they should be, all because the rich want to save themselves a bit of money.

So, moving from the EU which is a bunch of foreigners, to Cameron and his buddies, I'm sort of failing to see how you benefit from this.

I totally agree with your point that they should make membership attractive to the members. The thing is, from someone who was in youth politics, and a short while in adult politics, you see the sort of people that politics attracts, and they're not the sort of people you want running your country.

Hence my argument. You go from politicians in Brussels to politicians in London, and to be honest I don't see the difference much. Fine, in London they've been elected by the people, then again the people don't seem to have much sense for what makes a good politician either. You elect people to the EU who don't do much for us within the EU, you elect people to Westminster who also don't do much for the UK within the EU.

So, leaving the EU won't get sovereignty back, won't make things better, as you'll still have politicians in charge.

As for your question about the relevance of the Tories, I believe I answered this before.

I don't see anything wrong with national pride, unless national pride gets in the way of national reality. I see what people like Milosevic, those in Rwanada, in China, in the US, in Argentina (over the Falklands for example) where national pride gets in the way of sensible thinking and causes a lot of problems.

When it is pride that complements reality, then it's great, but it's not always the case, and the Brexit situation doesn't seem to be about pride AND reality, but pride OVER reality.

Identity is an important part, and in many ways I agree with those of the Tory/UKIP camp when it comes to dealing strongly with immigration. I've lived in countries with tough immigration laws, almost impossible permanent immigration laws, all foreigners are living on one or two years at a time. I have no problem with this. I think identity is something that should be promoted and protected.

It's not just Brexit people who lead miserable lives. Lots of people lead miserable lives and they look to politics, sometimes, to give them hope. Obama stood on a platform of hope and won. Trump is throwing hope out to the people without much in the way of policies, people go through stages of life where hope dwindles, they're not young, they work all the time, they're busy, not much to look forward to or hope for, and they cling to things. As Obama once said, people clinging to their guns, in the UK people are clinging to leaving the EU is one way people give hope. Football is another European example.

Farage is a politician with charisma, people like charisma and they'll look to that over substance. Farage gave people this hope, but he lost in the GE big time, and he's latched on to the referendum in order to make this about Farage, and he's pushing it for all it's worth and people WANT TO BELIEVE.



But what you're arguing is nationalism over the economy, nationalism over people's lives, people's ability to spend money to go on holiday, or to upgrade things in their lives. Is Nationalism more important than your pocket?

What I'm arguing for is freedom. Freedom to shake off the domineering EU once and for all. Regardless of your quibbling about what occurs within the UK's borders, at least those Parties you mention ARE operating within the UK's borders, taking decisions for people within the UK. What you're fighting for is an ever-greater reduction of that, over time.

You disparagingly say ... 'in London they've been elected by the people, then again the people don't seem to have much sense for what makes a good politician either.'. This is more of your 'we aren't fit to govern ourselves' argumentation. You are so centred on power being taken away from the peoples of the UK !!

What's wrong with having the hope that you acquire freedom, and from people prepared to hate us if we don't do as they expect us to ?

You talk of facing reality. I say, WE MAKE OUR OWN. We're not incapable of it, any more than any other non-EU country is. There is nothing 'deficient' in us that makes us incapable of dealing with our own fate in a responsible and profitable manner. However, the 'Remain' people rely on our fearing anything that involves change from the status quo ... as if we have that fictional, imaginary, 'deficiency' encoded into our DNA.

I say: we do not. Time we ruled ourselves, determined our own future, emerged as responsible adults to make our own way in the world ... and forsook the sometimes-dysfunctional playpen of the control-freaking EU !

Yes, I know what you're arguing for. Doesn't mean that it will ever happen.

You talk about freedom. Come off it, what freedom don't you have?

Freedom to have to follow laws from London instead of Brussels? Makes not much difference, does it?

You talk about taking decisions for the people of the UK, er.... hasn't this been happening anyway? Didn't Labour let in a lot of people, and the Tories still letting in a lot of people? And it's mostly non-EU citizens that people are getting annoyed about anyway?

So, how will this change by leaving the EU? The simple answer is, it won't, unless the govt in London does something about it, and they can do something about it while BEING IN THE EU anyway.

Basically, the UK govt goes to Europe and doesn't do a good job, then you expect them to do a good job in the UK......

Again, you're hoping for something that isn't going to happen.

You say ... 'You talk about freedom. Come off it, what freedom don't you have? Freedom to have to follow laws from London instead of Brussels? Makes not much difference, does it?'

Is this a joke ?? It makes all the difference in the world, between the freedom to totally determine our own laws, and have them decided upon instead by - primarily, anyway - foreigners !!

We might have ONE contributing vote between a couple of dozen ! That's not nearly good enough, in 'autonomy' terms.

Our votes get watered down by all those others from competing powers. Get shot of the EU ... we likewise get shot of that interference. Simple !

Again, I've said this before. YOU don't make your laws. The politicians do.

Also, the EU doesn't have a police force, ALL implementation is done by the government at home anyway.

The politicians make laws. Ideally, they'd be doing so as a result of representations made to them by the general public, at home ... or, those laws would follow from promises made to the public that were sold as manifesto commitments. Either way, input from voters AT HOME help determine the content of the laws in question.

That's the theory.

In practice .. not nearly as simple as that. The EU comes up with its own laws and directives, and Member States are expected to bend their laws to accommodate what the EU wants of them. That's an extra and critical tier of bureaucracy, which the voters at home had NO say in.

We disobey at our peril. The EU has fine-creating powers if a Member State dares defies them.

I say again: the sooner we're shot of that lot, the better !!

 

[frigidweirdo]

Maybe you wouldn't, but the politicians might. The leaving of Scotland would be far less dangerous for the UK than the UK leaving the EU. That doesn't mean, for example, that the Tories would try and pull some stunt like that.

Look at what the Tories DID DO.

Scotland could get ‘revenge’ for broken referendum promises, says Salmond

"First minister says a ‘huge gap’ has opened between what was promised by Westminster leaders and command paper"

"“Right now, the initial judgment that’s coming from Scotland is that people have no confidence in Tory guarantees and are absolutely fizzing about what looks like a preparation for a betrayal of a strong commitment made.”"

Boris slams 'reckless' election promises to Scotland

"
Boris slams 'reckless' election promises to Scotland as Cameron calls for a 'fair settlement' for all UK nations"

Now, you can complain about the EU, I understand the point you're making, but you're merely taking some power away from one group of untrustworthy politicians and giving to another group of untrustworthy politicians.

I'll make the assumption that you're English (though I could be wrong) and while Cameron is English, he doesn't necessarily stand up for every English person, in fact he's a bit elitist, trying to destroy the NHS, education going down the pan, public services simply not being what they should be, all because the rich want to save themselves a bit of money.

So, moving from the EU which is a bunch of foreigners, to Cameron and his buddies, I'm sort of failing to see how you benefit from this.

I totally agree with your point that they should make membership attractive to the members. The thing is, from someone who was in youth politics, and a short while in adult politics, you see the sort of people that politics attracts, and they're not the sort of people you want running your country.

Hence my argument. You go from politicians in Brussels to politicians in London, and to be honest I don't see the difference much. Fine, in London they've been elected by the people, then again the people don't seem to have much sense for what makes a good politician either. You elect people to the EU who don't do much for us within the EU, you elect people to Westminster who also don't do much for the UK within the EU.

So, leaving the EU won't get sovereignty back, won't make things better, as you'll still have politicians in charge.

As for your question about the relevance of the Tories, I believe I answered this before.

I don't see anything wrong with national pride, unless national pride gets in the way of national reality. I see what people like Milosevic, those in Rwanada, in China, in the US, in Argentina (over the Falklands for example) where national pride gets in the way of sensible thinking and causes a lot of problems.

When it is pride that complements reality, then it's great, but it's not always the case, and the Brexit situation doesn't seem to be about pride AND reality, but pride OVER reality.

Identity is an important part, and in many ways I agree with those of the Tory/UKIP camp when it comes to dealing strongly with immigration. I've lived in countries with tough immigration laws, almost impossible permanent immigration laws, all foreigners are living on one or two years at a time. I have no problem with this. I think identity is something that should be promoted and protected.

It's not just Brexit people who lead miserable lives. Lots of people lead miserable lives and they look to politics, sometimes, to give them hope. Obama stood on a platform of hope and won. Trump is throwing hope out to the people without much in the way of policies, people go through stages of life where hope dwindles, they're not young, they work all the time, they're busy, not much to look forward to or hope for, and they cling to things. As Obama once said, people clinging to their guns, in the UK people are clinging to leaving the EU is one way people give hope. Football is another European example.

Farage is a politician with charisma, people like charisma and they'll look to that over substance. Farage gave people this hope, but he lost in the GE big time, and he's latched on to the referendum in order to make this about Farage, and he's pushing it for all it's worth and people WANT TO BELIEVE.



But what you're arguing is nationalism over the economy, nationalism over people's lives, people's ability to spend money to go on holiday, or to upgrade things in their lives. Is Nationalism more important than your pocket?

What I'm arguing for is freedom. Freedom to shake off the domineering EU once and for all. Regardless of your quibbling about what occurs within the UK's borders, at least those Parties you mention ARE operating within the UK's borders, taking decisions for people within the UK. What you're fighting for is an ever-greater reduction of that, over time.

You disparagingly say ... 'in London they've been elected by the people, then again the people don't seem to have much sense for what makes a good politician either.'. This is more of your 'we aren't fit to govern ourselves' argumentation. You are so centred on power being taken away from the peoples of the UK !!

What's wrong with having the hope that you acquire freedom, and from people prepared to hate us if we don't do as they expect us to ?

You talk of facing reality. I say, WE MAKE OUR OWN. We're not incapable of it, any more than any other non-EU country is. There is nothing 'deficient' in us that makes us incapable of dealing with our own fate in a responsible and profitable manner. However, the 'Remain' people rely on our fearing anything that involves change from the status quo ... as if we have that fictional, imaginary, 'deficiency' encoded into our DNA.

I say: we do not. Time we ruled ourselves, determined our own future, emerged as responsible adults to make our own way in the world ... and forsook the sometimes-dysfunctional playpen of the control-freaking EU !

Yes, I know what you're arguing for. Doesn't mean that it will ever happen.

You talk about freedom. Come off it, what freedom don't you have?

Freedom to have to follow laws from London instead of Brussels? Makes not much difference, does it?

You talk about taking decisions for the people of the UK, er.... hasn't this been happening anyway? Didn't Labour let in a lot of people, and the Tories still letting in a lot of people? And it's mostly non-EU citizens that people are getting annoyed about anyway?

So, how will this change by leaving the EU? The simple answer is, it won't, unless the govt in London does something about it, and they can do something about it while BEING IN THE EU anyway.

Basically, the UK govt goes to Europe and doesn't do a good job, then you expect them to do a good job in the UK......

Again, you're hoping for something that isn't going to happen.

You say ... 'You talk about freedom. Come off it, what freedom don't you have? Freedom to have to follow laws from London instead of Brussels? Makes not much difference, does it?'

Is this a joke ?? It makes all the difference in the world, between the freedom to totally determine our own laws, and have them decided upon instead by - primarily, anyway - foreigners !!

We might have ONE contributing vote between a couple of dozen ! That's not nearly good enough, in 'autonomy' terms.

Our votes get watered down by all those others from competing powers. Get shot of the EU ... we likewise get shot of that interference. Simple !

Again, I've said this before. YOU don't make your laws. The politicians do.

Also, the EU doesn't have a police force, ALL implementation is done by the government at home anyway.

The politicians make laws. Ideally, they'd be doing so as a result of representations made to them by the general public, at home ... or, those laws would follow from promises made to the public that were sold as manifesto commitments. Either way, input from voters AT HOME help determine the content of the laws in question.

That's the theory.

In practice .. not nearly as simple as that. The EU comes up with its own laws and directives, and Member States are expected to bend their laws to accommodate what the EU wants of them. That's an extra and critical tier of bureaucracy, which the voters at home had NO say in.

We disobey at our peril. The EU has fine-creating powers if a Member State dares defies them.

I say again: the sooner we're shot of that lot, the better !!

Ideally. But then again I think most of the people believe the NHS should remain. If the facts were presented (like if costs half what the US system costs) then the people would be in favor of the continued nature of the NHS as it was under Labour.

However, again, the UK has done what to change the EU? Almost nothing. It hasn't tried to unite the skeptic factions into changing the EU, it sits and moans. And then if the UK leaves, then what? More moaning, more not doing things properly?

What's the difference?

Does Cameron put the interests of the people first? No.... did Labour?

The rise of UKIP was because people are fed up with the political elite, same in the US with Trump and Sanders, but then the political elite always wins out anyway because the people vote mindlessly, and they'll vote on the 23rd mindlessly, and they'll vote in 2020 mindlessly.

 

[Drummond]

What I'm arguing for is freedom. Freedom to shake off the domineering EU once and for all. Regardless of your quibbling about what occurs within the UK's borders, at least those Parties you mention ARE operating within the UK's borders, taking decisions for people within the UK. What you're fighting for is an ever-greater reduction of that, over time.

You disparagingly say ... 'in London they've been elected by the people, then again the people don't seem to have much sense for what makes a good politician either.'. This is more of your 'we aren't fit to govern ourselves' argumentation. You are so centred on power being taken away from the peoples of the UK !!

What's wrong with having the hope that you acquire freedom, and from people prepared to hate us if we don't do as they expect us to ?

You talk of facing reality. I say, WE MAKE OUR OWN. We're not incapable of it, any more than any other non-EU country is. There is nothing 'deficient' in us that makes us incapable of dealing with our own fate in a responsible and profitable manner. However, the 'Remain' people rely on our fearing anything that involves change from the status quo ... as if we have that fictional, imaginary, 'deficiency' encoded into our DNA.

I say: we do not. Time we ruled ourselves, determined our own future, emerged as responsible adults to make our own way in the world ... and forsook the sometimes-dysfunctional playpen of the control-freaking EU !

Yes, I know what you're arguing for. Doesn't mean that it will ever happen.

You talk about freedom. Come off it, what freedom don't you have?

Freedom to have to follow laws from London instead of Brussels? Makes not much difference, does it?

You talk about taking decisions for the people of the UK, er.... hasn't this been happening anyway? Didn't Labour let in a lot of people, and the Tories still letting in a lot of people? And it's mostly non-EU citizens that people are getting annoyed about anyway?

So, how will this change by leaving the EU? The simple answer is, it won't, unless the govt in London does something about it, and they can do something about it while BEING IN THE EU anyway.

Basically, the UK govt goes to Europe and doesn't do a good job, then you expect them to do a good job in the UK......

Again, you're hoping for something that isn't going to happen.

You say ... 'You talk about freedom. Come off it, what freedom don't you have? Freedom to have to follow laws from London instead of Brussels? Makes not much difference, does it?'

Is this a joke ?? It makes all the difference in the world, between the freedom to totally determine our own laws, and have them decided upon instead by - primarily, anyway - foreigners !!

We might have ONE contributing vote between a couple of dozen ! That's not nearly good enough, in 'autonomy' terms.

Our votes get watered down by all those others from competing powers. Get shot of the EU ... we likewise get shot of that interference. Simple !

Again, I've said this before. YOU don't make your laws. The politicians do.

Also, the EU doesn't have a police force, ALL implementation is done by the government at home anyway.

The politicians make laws. Ideally, they'd be doing so as a result of representations made to them by the general public, at home ... or, those laws would follow from promises made to the public that were sold as manifesto commitments. Either way, input from voters AT HOME help determine the content of the laws in question.

That's the theory.

In practice .. not nearly as simple as that. The EU comes up with its own laws and directives, and Member States are expected to bend their laws to accommodate what the EU wants of them. That's an extra and critical tier of bureaucracy, which the voters at home had NO say in.

We disobey at our peril. The EU has fine-creating powers if a Member State dares defies them.

I say again: the sooner we're shot of that lot, the better !!

Ideally. But then again I think most of the people believe the NHS should remain. If the facts were presented (like if costs half what the US system costs) then the people would be in favor of the continued nature of the NHS as it was under Labour.

However, again, the UK has done what to change the EU? Almost nothing. It hasn't tried to unite the skeptic factions into changing the EU, it sits and moans. And then if the UK leaves, then what? More moaning, more not doing things properly?

What's the difference?

Does Cameron put the interests of the people first? No.... did Labour?

The rise of UKIP was because people are fed up with the political elite, same in the US with Trump and Sanders, but then the political elite always wins out anyway because the people vote mindlessly, and they'll vote on the 23rd mindlessly, and they'll vote in 2020 mindlessly.

The NHS only costs half of what the US system costs ? If the NHS really THAT expensive, by comparison ? Doesn't our NHS only have the burden of covering a total population one FIFTH that of the US .. ?

And isn't our own NHS one of the biggest employers on the planet ??

What CAN the UK do to effect notable change in the EU, that won't be voted down by others ?

You can argue until hell freezes over as to the relative merits of the Conservatives v Labour. Doesn't alter the fact that WE are responsible for electing their MP's into Parliament. We decide who we favour. Yes, we still have that freedom .. for now. You call it 'mindless' voting ... perhaps this helps explain your pro-EU biases ? The EU is known to be deficient on democracy .. and you're showing a contempt for British democracy, and those who vote within it. No wonder you're OK with continued EU dominion !!

Well, some of us aren't as disparaging about voter habits, nor will we turn our backs on the right to vote, and to have, and keep, democratic process and accountability alive. It's one good reason to turn our backs on the EU, come 23rd June ...

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes, I know what you're arguing for. Doesn't mean that it will ever happen.

You talk about freedom. Come off it, what freedom don't you have?

Freedom to have to follow laws from London instead of Brussels? Makes not much difference, does it?

You talk about taking decisions for the people of the UK, er.... hasn't this been happening anyway? Didn't Labour let in a lot of people, and the Tories still letting in a lot of people? And it's mostly non-EU citizens that people are getting annoyed about anyway?

So, how will this change by leaving the EU? The simple answer is, it won't, unless the govt in London does something about it, and they can do something about it while BEING IN THE EU anyway.

Basically, the UK govt goes to Europe and doesn't do a good job, then you expect them to do a good job in the UK......

Again, you're hoping for something that isn't going to happen.

You say ... 'You talk about freedom. Come off it, what freedom don't you have? Freedom to have to follow laws from London instead of Brussels? Makes not much difference, does it?'

Is this a joke ?? It makes all the difference in the world, between the freedom to totally determine our own laws, and have them decided upon instead by - primarily, anyway - foreigners !!

We might have ONE contributing vote between a couple of dozen ! That's not nearly good enough, in 'autonomy' terms.

Our votes get watered down by all those others from competing powers. Get shot of the EU ... we likewise get shot of that interference. Simple !

Again, I've said this before. YOU don't make your laws. The politicians do.

Also, the EU doesn't have a police force, ALL implementation is done by the government at home anyway.

The politicians make laws. Ideally, they'd be doing so as a result of representations made to them by the general public, at home ... or, those laws would follow from promises made to the public that were sold as manifesto commitments. Either way, input from voters AT HOME help determine the content of the laws in question.

That's the theory.

In practice .. not nearly as simple as that. The EU comes up with its own laws and directives, and Member States are expected to bend their laws to accommodate what the EU wants of them. That's an extra and critical tier of bureaucracy, which the voters at home had NO say in.

We disobey at our peril. The EU has fine-creating powers if a Member State dares defies them.

I say again: the sooner we're shot of that lot, the better !!

Ideally. But then again I think most of the people believe the NHS should remain. If the facts were presented (like if costs half what the US system costs) then the people would be in favor of the continued nature of the NHS as it was under Labour.

However, again, the UK has done what to change the EU? Almost nothing. It hasn't tried to unite the skeptic factions into changing the EU, it sits and moans. And then if the UK leaves, then what? More moaning, more not doing things properly?

What's the difference?

Does Cameron put the interests of the people first? No.... did Labour?

The rise of UKIP was because people are fed up with the political elite, same in the US with Trump and Sanders, but then the political elite always wins out anyway because the people vote mindlessly, and they'll vote on the 23rd mindlessly, and they'll vote in 2020 mindlessly.

The NHS only costs half of what the US system costs ? If the NHS really THAT expensive, by comparison ? Doesn't our NHS only have the burden of covering a total population one FIFTH that of the US .. ?

And isn't our own NHS one of the biggest employers on the planet ??

What CAN the UK do to effect notable change in the EU, that won't be voted down by others ?

You can argue until hell freezes over as to the relative merits of the Conservatives v Labour. Doesn't alter the fact that WE are responsible for electing their MP's into Parliament. We decide who we favour. Yes, we still have that freedom .. for now. You call it 'mindless' voting ... perhaps this helps explain your pro-EU biases ? The EU is known to be deficient on democracy .. and you're showing a contempt for British democracy, and those who vote within it. No wonder you're OK with continued EU dominion !!

Well, some of us aren't as disparaging about voter habits, nor will we turn our backs on the right to vote, and to have, and keep, democratic process and accountability alive. It's one good reason to turn our backs on the EU, come 23rd June ...

That's as a percentage of GDP, so more or less per capita.

So no, it's CHEAP.

Is the NHS one of the biggest employers on the planet? I doubt it, but that's neither here nor there. A guy I work with, his father works in the US healthcare system, he runs his own business, the whole of what he does it completely unnecessary, he makes money out of the system that wouldn't exist in the UK.

Yes, the people are responsible for electing the people to Parliament, also to the EU parliament, and the UK govt which you elect sends a person to be part of the EU executive.

So, it's actually democratic.