Zone1 Broad-brush reparations to all blacks is unconstituional

[Foxfyre]

Not everything that is unfair or even unjust is a violation of the law. Nonetheless when violations do occur this is exactly what we have to contend with - a bunch of people who will work fulltime coming up with reasons that the situation being examined is not or was not caused by racism. That's part of the reason I mentioned damages that are presumed.

Our government(s) are the main parties at fault because they created a society that legally allowed their white citizens to abuse, exploit and harm their Black citizens. Because it was governmental sanctioned racial discrimination and abuse, the proper remedy for the harm caused would be reparations.

My tax dollars go to all sorts of things I'm not behind but just like I stated previously, I don't get a say in how that money is disbursed. Hell, I don't have children but some of my money goes to programs to help other people's children. I don't cry about that because it doesn't benefit me directly so why all the angst against Black people potentially receiving something financial as a way for our government to acknowledge and make amends for the human rights violations that they sanctioned and allowed to go on for centuries?

Remember that slavery and Jim Crow were quite legal in their day according to the U.S. Congress, the Presidents in office at the time, and according to the courts that passed judgment on those laws from time to time. That is not to say they were good, defensible, justifiable in any sense whatsoever, but they were legal.

What is moral in the here and now was seen very differently in previous generations, even by those who lived those generations and are still living. Future generations are most likely to judge aspects of this one quite harshly including many things that you or I or others might consider good and moral and reasonable now.

The only equitable and reasonable way to evaluate previous cultures is by what worked then and would work now and what was bad/wrong then that can be corrected in the here and now. History is not to like or dislike but to inform, instruct, advise us so that we can become better people.

To condemn people living now for the sins of their ancestors would likely condemn every man, woman and child on Earth.

To reward people now for the injustices in their ancestors' time would make pretty much every single one of us eligible for such restitution. There aren't that many resources in the entire world.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Stop the personal attacks and silly mocking. Once more and you’re being reported.

The thread was already closed once due to personal attacks. Quit it and learn to debate without all the putdowns.

And I said the experiences of CURRENT blacks, who are demanding reparations, does not compare to the Holocaust. Neither does the experiences of those who lived under Jim Crowe. Doesn’t mean I don’t think it was bad, but to try to compare that to the horrors of the concentration camps is insulting to Holocaust survivors. You are minimizing the suffering of Holocaust survivors, who saw their families murdered and were starved to death,

Lisa you are suffering from a severe deficit of knowledge on several of the topics you covered above, starting with what Jim Crow actually encompassed, and certainly including your definition of "current Blacks".

No one is attempting to diminish the suffering caused by the Holocaust, we're simply trying to get you to understand why it's wrong of you to try to compare the two in the first place but if you insist on doing so, then you need to include everything in the history of Black people in America not just your sanitized version of life since the Civil Rights Act, so you can tell yourself that Black people didn't suffer that much, or at least not nearly as much as those Jewish people who were sent to the concentration camps and ovens.

You seem to think that the manner of death adds something, but dead is dead. The only difference is how much fear, pain and suffering the person endured before they finally succumbed to death. If your whole existence was one of fear, pain and suffering I don't see how you are able to so flippantly discount that, but that was the life of the slaves, particularly those born into slavery.

Once slavery was ended, Jim Crow began which attempted in some cases to return Black people to bondage by making every little aspect of Black lives a potential crime so that the southerners could regain the labor pool that they lost when slavery ended so they created the convict leasing system. They also came up with a slew of new laws to further restrict the lives and rights of Black people. We're still in the 1800s here.

No one in the United States has tried to do to the Jewish people what Hitler did to them in Germany. It's been roughly 80 years since the Holocaust and while you and your family were living freely as white people in the U.S. with every advantage that entailed, Black people in America were still living under Jim Crow for at least the next few decades. So how are you comparing less than a century of freedom in the United States with more than two centuries of racial discrimination and oppression of Black Americans, some of which was occurring simultaneously with your years of freedom from persecution?

I don't need to learn how to debate, I can debate anyone on this message who is interested in debating, while you have turned down opportunities to debate some of us because you are unwilling to leave the security of Zone 1 so you don't get your feelings hurt by factual, historical information that can be verified as being the truth even when there are rules established that say no personal attacks or insults, you still can't do it. That's because you're on the wrong side of the truth and unlike myself and many of the rest of us, I can see things from your perspective, totally. You however are completely unequipped to see anything from our perspective.

That's okay that's part of the privilege of being white, never having to think about or consider anything from the perspective of a Black American.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

You need to calm down, you got yourself all worked up over this reparations nonsense again. It is a non-starter. Period. And FYI I've been in charge of my own life since I was 18 which is why I am now a happily retired and successful American. I also treat everyone the same and call out bullshit when I see it. You bring up isolated incidents of Racism and falsely try to claim they are relevant to Slavery Reparations. That is absurd.

You need to tell your wife what she needs to do, not me. And for someone who is in charge of their own life, you sure spend a lot of time trying to tell other people how they should be spending their time and what they should or should not do with their lives.

Go ahead and stress out because there are Black people who don't take you seriously, especially when you start pontificating.

Oh and I just noticed, why are you a successful American? Because you're retired? So are several of the other Black members on this message board, your point?

 

[MarathonMike]

You need to tell your wife what she needs to do, not me. And for someone who is in charge of their own life, you sure spend a lot of time trying to tell other people how they should be spending their time and what they should or should not do with their lives.

Go ahead and stress out because there are Black people who don't take you seriously, especially when you start pontificating.

Oh and I just noticed, why are you a successful American? Because you're retired? So are several of the other Black members on this message board, your point?

Your anger doesn't make you right, it just makes you angry. As usual you tried to make everything personal with me because your reparations/Racism arguments are weak and without merit. The same thing that IM2 has tried and failed for years.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Remember that slavery and Jim Crow were quite legal in their day according to the U.S. Congress, the Presidents in office at the time, and according to the courts that passed judgment on those laws from time to time. That is not to say they were good, defensible, justifiable in any sense whatsoever, but they were legal.

What is moral in the here and now was seen very differently in previous generations, even by those who lived those generations and are still living. Future generations are most likely to judge aspects of this one quite harshly including many things that you or I or others might consider good and moral and reasonable now.

The only equitable and reasonable way to evaluate previous cultures is by what worked then and would work now and what was bad/wrong then that can be corrected in the here and now. History is not to like or dislike but to inform, instruct, advise us so that we can become better people.

To condemn people living now for the sins of their ancestors would likely condemn every man, woman and child on Earth.

To reward people now for the injustices in their ancestors' time would make pretty much every single one of us eligible for such restitution. There aren't that many resources in the entire world.

I realize our government(s) is made up of people, but every time we mention the government being responsible you all revert right back to talking about how the people of today are not the ones responsible for the acts committed in previous eras.

And the fact that the human and civil rights violations were "legal" at the time does not make it better nor explain it away. It should not have ever been legal and if the world can see and say that about the Holocaust, and about the Japanese Americans who were sent to concentration camps during WWII why is it so dang difficult for them to see and understand the same thing when it comes to Black Americans?

It's almost as if acknowledging the wrong that was done would somehow put them on the hook for something that maybe many of us have not thought of, like it causing retroactive liability of some sort, I honestly don't know. I do know that it's a cope out though saying "it was legal then".

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Your anger doesn't make you right, it just makes you angry. As usual you tried to make everything personal with me because your reparations/Racism arguments are weak and without merit. The same thing that IM2 has tried and failed for years.

You made it personal when you tried to tell me to stop doing something you didn't want me doing for some unknown reason. Your wife may you let tell her what to do and what not to do, but I'm not her.

And here we go with the casting of my character as the stereotypical "angry Black woman". Whether reparations are paid is entirely up to someone other than myself so why would I get angry over something that I have no control over? Hint: I wouldn't and I'm not

I suspect that this is just your miscontent coming out due to not being able to control the narrative, to control me and what I post and say. It's a really stupid thing to try to do, especially online, but the cyber mischief makers are why I am in business today.

 

[Foxfyre]

Lisa you are suffering from a severe deficit of knowledge on several of the topics you covered above, starting with what Jim Crow actually encompassed, and certainly including your definition of "current Blacks".

No one is attempting to diminish the suffering caused by the Holocaust, we're simply trying to get you to understand why it's wrong of you to try to compare the two in the first place but if you insist on doing so, then you need to include everything in the history of Black people in America not just your sanitized version of life since the Civil Rights Act, so you can tell yourself that Black people didn't suffer that much, or at least not nearly as much as those Jewish people who were sent to the concentration camps and ovens.

You seem to think that the manner of death adds something, but dead is dead. The only difference is how much fear, pain and suffering the person endured before they finally succumbed to death. If your whole existence was one of fear, pain and suffering I don't see how you are able to so flippantly discount that, but that was the life of the slaves, particularly those born into slavery.

Once slavery was ended, Jim Crow began which attempted in some cases to return Black people to bondage by making every little aspect of Black lives a potential crime so that the southerners could regain the labor pool that they lost when slavery ended so they created the convict leasing system. They also came up with a slew of new laws to further restrict the lives and rights of Black people. We're still in the 1800s here.

No one in the United States has tried to do to the Jewish people what Hitler did to them in Germany. It's been roughly 80 years since the Holocaust and while you and your family were living freely as white people in the U.S. with every advantage that entailed, Black people in America were still living under Jim Crow for at least the next few decades. So how are you comparing less than a century of freedom in the United States with more than two centuries of racial discrimination and oppression of Black Americans, some of which was occurring simultaneously with your years of freedom from persecution?

I don't need to learn how to debate, I can debate anyone on this message who is interested in debating, while you have turned down opportunities to debate some of us because you are unwilling to leave the security of Zone 1 so you don't get your feelings hurt by factual, historical information that can be verified as being the truth even when there are rules established that say no personal attacks or insults, you still can't do it. That's because you're on the wrong side of the truth and unlike myself and many of the rest of us, I can see things from your perspective, totally. You however are completely unequipped to see anything from our perspective.

That's okay that's part of the privilege of being white, never having to think about or consider anything from the perspective of a Black American.

It is approaching 60 years since all the laws contributing to inequities suffered by black people were eliminated by the U.S. Congress and then sitting President. There aren't a lot of people living now who even remember those times.

We went through a reasonable and necessary period of reverse discrimination to recondition a formerly segregated culture to get used to the idea of working, playing, learning, dining with people of color.

That was the best we could do to correct past inequities and get our society all pointed in the same improved direction. The rest had to be up to the people themselves and the vast majority stepped up to the challenge and for a short time we achieved one of the most color blind societies in the world.

That would have continued and it would have continued to improve if the SJWs hadn't seen their cash cows of racial issues evaporating before their eyes and set about to make sure racism remained something they could capitalize on socially, politically, economically.

So their welfare programs destroyed the black family and kept more people poor and dependent on government. Their emphasis on 'black is beautiful' and 'white is oppressive' themes encouraged black people not to become homogenized Americans competing on equal footing for the American dream but made them angry 'victims' who not only had dark skins but were encouraged/taught to have uniquely 'black' hairstyles, clothing, speech, names. By deliberately resegregating society that way they were able to keep more black people poor, disgruntled, feeling angry and entitled. That allowed the SJWs to hang on to those racial issues, however manufactured, that provide them with power and cash.

If you want to fight true injustice and evil intent, fight that.

 

[Lisa558]

Your anger doesn't make you right, it just makes you angry. As usual you tried to make everything personal with me because your reparations/Racism arguments are weak and without merit. The same thing that IM2 has tried and failed for years.

She’s calling everyone a racist, and making everything about personal - and false - attacks. Somehow she thinks being an angry, demanding, resentful, antagonistic person will make it more likely whites will want to take on the burden of paying for reparations.

Now IM2 and Newsvine are accusing me of lying about being Jewish. Not sure what that’s about.

 

[Coyote]

It should not have ever been legal and if the world can see and say that about the Holocaust, and about the Japanese Americans who were sent to concentration camps during WWII why is it so dang difficult for them to see and understand the same thing when it comes to Black Americans?

This.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

It is approaching 60 years since all the laws contributing to inequities suffered by black people were eliminated by the U.S. Congress and then sitting President. There aren't a lot of people living now who even remember those times.

We went through a reasonable and necessary period of reverse discrimination to recondition a formerly segregated culture to get used to the idea of working, playing, learning, dining with people of color.

That was the best we could do to correct past inequities and get our society all pointed in the same improved direction. The rest had to be up to the people themselves and the vast majority stepped up to the challenge and for a short time we achieved one of the most color blind societies in the world.

That would have continued and it would have continued to improve if the SJWs hadn't seen their cash cows of racial issues evaporating before their eyes and set about to make sure racism remained something they could capitalize on socially, politically, economically.

So their welfare programs destroyed the black family and kept more people poor and dependent on government. Their emphasis on 'black is beautiful' and 'white is oppressive' themes encouraged black people not to become homogenized Americans competing on equal footing for the American dream but made them angry 'victims' who not only had dark skins but were encouraged/taught to have uniquely 'black' hairstyles, clothing, speech, names. By deliberately resegregating society that way they were able to keep more black people poor, disgruntled, feeling angry and entitled. That allowed the SJWs to hang on to those racial issues, however manufactured, that provide them with power and cash.

If you want to fight true injustice and evil intent, fight that.

“If you are not in the arena getting your ass kicked on occasion, I am not interested in or open to your feedback. There are a million cheap seats in the world today filled with people who will never be brave with their own lives, but will spend every ounce of energy they have hurling advice and judgement at those of us trying to dare greatly. Their only contributions are criticism, cynicism, and fear-mongering. If you're criticizing from a place where you're not also putting yourself on the line, I'm not interested in your feedback.”​

― Brené Brown

 

[Foxfyre]

I realize our government(s) is made up of people, but every time we mention the government being responsible you all revert right back to talking about how the people of today are not the ones responsible for the acts committed in previous eras.

And the fact that the human and civil rights violations were "legal" at the time does not make it better nor explain it away. It should not have ever been legal and if the world can see and say that about the Holocaust, and about the Japanese Americans who were sent to concentration camps during WWII why is it so dang difficult for them to see and understand the same thing when it comes to Black Americans?

It's almost as if acknowledging the wrong that was done would somehow put them on the hook for something that maybe many of us have not thought of, like it causing retroactive liability of some sort, I honestly don't know. I do know that it's a cope out though saying "it was legal then".

Are there racists today? Of course there are. They come in all ages, all skin colors, all walks of life. They are a fact of life and probably always will be. But you know what? It is perfectly legal to be racist. It just isn't legal to inflict your racism in a way that infringes on the constitutional or legal rights of others.

Anecdotal incidents are almost never a good reason to establish law. Sure the few black kids in an all white community may feel different/uncomfortable. And there should be encouragement for them and the white kids to minimize that as much as possible. The fat woman or man among fit, trim hard bodies is going to feel different/uncomfortable too. But kind people will not go out of their way to exacerbate that. One woman in an assembly of men or vice versa can also be uncomfortable and make a person feel like an outlier. These are situations that simply exist and good people don't make it worse for the odd one out.

But because some black people have been disadvantaged by their skin color, and some have, and some women have been disadvantaged by their gender and some have, or some fat people have been denied opportunity because of their appearance and some have, is a very poor reason to conclude that all deserve some kind of compensation or reparations. There is simply no way to do that fairly or equitably or honorably given those who would have to pay that compensation or reparations.

The best we can do is to keep working for a society in which all have the option to try for their best potential. And we have to accept that not everybody has the same aptitude, work ethic, intellect, instincts so equality is an unreasonable and unreachable goal without reducing society to its lowest common denominator.

 

[Foxfyre]

“If you are not in the arena getting your ass kicked on occasion, I am not interested in or open to your feedback. There are a million cheap seats in the world today filled with people who will never be brave with their own lives, but will spend every ounce of energy they have hurling advice and judgement at those of us trying to dare greatly. Their only contributions are criticism, cynicism, and fear-mongering. If you're criticizing from a place where you're not also putting yourself on the line, I'm not interested in your feedback.”​

― Brené Brown

Could you take your own advice here maybe?

I have been denied a job I was quite qualified for because I didn't have the right kind of degree.

I have been denied jobs because I was a woman, because I was a young woman who might become pregnant, because I was a woman with children.

I have been denied a job I was imminently qualified for because I was considered overweight even though I was logging 40 minutes power walking every day.

I was given a lower salary in a very responsible job because I had a husband I could depend on for necessary resources.

I know what it is to experience discrimination. But nobody, not you or anybody else, owes me a dime or pretty much every soul on Earth is due some kind of compensation because of some injustice done to them.

 

[IM2]

Lisa,

What exactly is a blacktivist? It's not a word, so then it's a personal attack.

 

[Foxfyre]

Lisa,

What exactly is a blacktivist? It's not a word, so then it's a personal attack.

Everything to you is a personal attack it seems. You are probably the one pushing more racist doctrine than any other person in the USMB community. Lisa does not personally attack people, at least without extreme provocation.

 

[Lisa558]

It’s also hard when the black president of Harvard refuses to condemn calls by Harvard students for the GENOCIDE of Jews, and then we are attacked for not wanting to give reparations to the college-educated black man, paid for by taxpayers, because 70 years ago IF he went South, he was subjected to Jim Crowe laws. IF he even went.

How come the blacktivists on this thread aren’t demanding the ouster of the antisemite apologist at Harvard? I haven’t heard ONE person here say that it was despicable how unwilling she was to condemn calls to genocide Jews and that she should be removed.

 

[Lisa558]

Lisa,

What exactly is a blacktivist? It's not a word, so then it's a personal attack.

It’s not an attack. It’s a black activist. NOTHING on par with your screams of ”racist!!” all the time.

 

[IM2]

Are there racists today? Of course there are. They come in all ages, all skin colors, all walks of life. They are a fact of life and probably always will be. But you know what? It is perfectly legal to be racist. It just isn't legal to inflict your racism in a way that infringes on the constitutional or legal rights of others.

Anecdotal incidents are almost never a good reason to establish law. Sure the few black kids in an all white community may feel different/uncomfortable. And there should be encouragement for them and the white kids to minimize that as much as possible. The fat woman or man among fit, trim hard bodies is going to feel different/uncomfortable too. But kind people will not go out of their way to exacerbate that. One woman in an assembly of men or vice versa can also be uncomfortable and make a person feel like an outlier. These are situations that simply exist and good people don't make it worse for the odd one out.

But because some black people have been disadvantaged by their skin color, and some have, and some women have been disadvantaged by their gender and some have, or some fat people have been denied opportunity because of their appearance and some have, is a very poor reason to conclude that all deserve some kind of compensation or reparations. There is simply no way to do that fairly or equitably or honorably given those who would have to pay that compensation or reparations.

The best we can do is to keep working for a society in which all have the option to try for their best potential. And we have to accept that not everybody has the same aptitude, work ethic, intellect, instincts so equality is an unreasonable and unreachable goal without reducing society to its lowest common denominator.

Since racists come in all skin collors post some legislation by bllacks that excluded whites from opportunty, o deny them things like the ability to vote.

Your post makes no sense. You're just trying to rationalize the maintenance of white advantage..

 

[Coyote]

…..

It’s also hard when the black president of Harvard refuses to condemn calls by Harvard students for the GENOCIDE of Jews, and then we are attacked for not wanting to give reparations to the college-educated black man, paid for by taxpayers, because 70 years ago IF he went South, he was subjected to Jim Crowe laws. IF he even went.

How come the blacktivists on this thread aren’t demanding the ouster of the antidemite apologist at Harvard? I haven’t heard ONE person here say that it was despicable how unwilling she was to condemn calls to genocide Jews and she should be removed.

Which has nothing to do with anything. You are conflating two different things and demanding a reaction.

 

[IM2]

Everything to you is a personal attack it seems. You are probably the one pushing more racist doctrine than any other person in the USMB community. Lisa does not personally attack people, at least without extreme provocation.

I have pushed no racist doctrine. All Llisa does in every post is attack black people.

 

[Lisa558]

…..

Which has nothing to do with anything. You are conflating two different things and demanding a reaction.

I’m pointing out the hypocrisy.

You are enraged by what you see as racism against blacks. Are you then willing to condemn the black Harvard president for approving of calls to genocide Jews, and say she should be fired for allowing such an antisemitic environment to flourish?

This is the HERE and NOW.