California Tea Party Files Class Action Lawsuit Against IRS

[asterism]

In fact, you don't even need to apply at all - you can just declare your corporation a 501c4, and you can operate as one. Getting the IRS letter isn't required, it just makes things easier.

How does it make things easier, and what is the IRS rule that states one can operate as a nonprofit without approval?

 

[Mr. Peepers]

"Civic action" is a liberal euphemism meaning "left-wing propaganda."

Hmmm. Giving regular-Joe Americans a voice that can rival the flood of money coming in to corporatists' coffers by big business and the 1%? You're right. That's just TERRIBLE. You righties sure have weird priorities.

 

[bripat9643]

No Tea Party groups were prevented from collecting donations while they waited for approval.

Sure they were. If they couldn't tell their donors that contributions would be tax deductible and they would remain anonymous, then a lot of donors would refrain from contributing.

Donations to 501c4 organizations are not tax-deductible, and there's no reason that the donations would not remain anonymous.

Wrong on both counts. They are deductible just as donations to any charity are deductible. And they are also allowed to keep all donations below a certain amount anonymous. You're operating entirely on ignorance here.

It really doesn't matter. The purpose of the lawsuit is to force the IRS to turn over incriminating documents and to force IRS employees to testify under oath.

The truth will come out now.

I wouldn't keep your hopes up.

It isn't guaranteed, but it's a lot better than depending on those spineless republicans in Congress to do the job.

 

[asterism]

Applying for Exemption - Difference Between Nonprofit and Tax-Exempt Status
What is the difference between nonprofit and tax-exempt status?

Nonprofit status is a state law concept. Nonprofit status may make an organization eligible for certain benefits, such as state sales, property and income tax exemptions. Although most federal tax-exempt organizations are nonprofit organizations, organizing as a nonprofit organization at the state level does not automatically grant the organization exemption from federal income tax. To qualify as exempt from federal income tax, an organization must meet requirements set forth in the Internal Revenue Code. See Types of Tax-Exempt Organizations or Publication 557 for more information.

Applying for Exemption - Difference Between Nonprofit and Tax-Exempt Status

Straight from the IRS and that's why groups of all political persuasions that take donations file for tax exempt status.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

They could not represent themselves as nonprofits which hampered their abilities to collect donations. One does not "donate" to a for-profit corporation.

For 501c4 organizations, that is not true. As soon as you incorporate, you can operate as a non-profit, you don't have to wait for approval.

That's why MoveOn is tax exempt, it's why Media Matters is tax exempt.

MoveOn is a 501c4. MediaMatters is a 501c3. They are not the same thing.

While true that they are different, they are both tax exempt.

Please show me the IRS rule that states one can operate as a nonprofit before actually being approved to be nonprofit.

The main source of knowledge of this for me is the fact that I've been on the board, and involved with the incorporation, of 3 different 501c4 organizations.

But here's a source for you:

NOTE: One of the great things about a 501(c)(4) organization is that, once created, you can begin operating as a tax exempt organization right away. You do not have to wait for official recognition of your exempt status from the IRS before you can get to work.

While a 501(c)(4) organization is not required to file an application for recognition of exemption, it is recommended because it provides public recognition of tax-exempt status, nonprofit mailing privileges, exemption from certain state taxes, and it avoids confusion with the IRS when filing mandatory annual reports (see Step 4)

http://afjactioncampaign.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Starting-a-501c4-Organization.pdf

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Applying for Exemption - Difference Between Nonprofit and Tax-Exempt Status
What is the difference between nonprofit and tax-exempt status?

Nonprofit status is a state law concept. Nonprofit status may make an organization eligible for certain benefits, such as state sales, property and income tax exemptions. Although most federal tax-exempt organizations are nonprofit organizations, organizing as a nonprofit organization at the state level does not automatically grant the organization exemption from federal income tax. To qualify as exempt from federal income tax, an organization must meet requirements set forth in the Internal Revenue Code. See Types of Tax-Exempt Organizations or Publication 557 for more information.

Applying for Exemption - Difference Between Nonprofit and Tax-Exempt Status

Straight from the IRS and that's why groups of all political persuasions that take donations file for tax exempt status.

I don't think that you're understanding what I'm saying.

I know that groups of all political persuasions file for "tax-exempt" status. As I said, I've done it myself.

The only point that I'm trying to make is that 501c4 organizations do not have to wait for their application to be approved to start operating as a "tax-exempt" organization.

 

[TemplarKormac]

For 501c4 organizations, that is not true. As soon as you incorporate, you can operate as a non-profit, you don't have to wait for approval.



MoveOn is a 501c4. MediaMatters is a 501c3. They are not the same thing.

While true that they are different, they are both tax exempt.

Please show me the IRS rule that states one can operate as a nonprofit before actually being approved to be nonprofit.

The main source of knowledge of this for me is the fact that I've been on the board, and involved with the incorporation, or 3 different 501c4 organizations.

But here's a source for you:

NOTE: One of the great things about a 501(c)(4) organization is that, once created, you can begin operating as a tax exempt organization right away. You do not have to wait for official recognition of your exempt status from the IRS before you can get to work.

While a 501(c)(4) organization is not required to file an application for recognition of exemption, it is recommended because it provides public recognition of tax-exempt status, nonprofit mailing privileges, exemption from certain state taxes, and it avoids confusion with the IRS when filing mandatory annual reports (see Step 4)

http://afjactioncampaign.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Starting-a-501c4-Organization.pdf

Still the question you fail to answer is, how come there was still scrutiny? If it were so easy to file for 501 (c)(4) status, why did the IRS make it so damned hard for the conservative groups? Stop evading the issue.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

It's silly to pretend there's any difference between right-wing 501c4s and left-wing 501c4s.

Actually there is.

A couple of hot girls walk up to a night club and encounter the bouncer. One is dressed in red, the other in blue. They both show their ID and prove they're over 21. He lets the girl in the blue proceed, but he stops the girl in the red. He proceeds to scrutinize her. He asks, "how tall are you?"

"What?" She replies. "Answer or you don't get in" he explains. "5 foot 6 inches, sir; but what does the have to do with my getting in? You didn't ask the other girl--"

"Just answer a few more questions and I'll let you in" he retorted. The girl in red sighs but ultimately consents. "What is your shirt size?" "A 6, sir" she answered. "But what does the have to do with anything? I just want to have a good time like the rest of those people in there!"

The bouncer proceeds to further scrutinize her, "What shoe size are you?" The girl by now has been standing there for 15 minutes, thinking to herself "This isn't fair!"

"A 7, sir but I--" The Bouncer interrupts once more. "A couple more questions. What High School did you graduate from?" The girl by now is a bit distraught, but she answers "Gallant River High."

"Okay, last question, young lady. What color panties are you wearing?" Shocked and appalled by this question she rips the Bouncer. "That is none of your business! This has nothing to do with me getting into the club! The girl in blue was never asked any of these questions, why was I stopped?"

"Orders from the top, ma'am. The owner of this establishment's favorite color is blue, he asked me to question anyone who isn't dressed in the same color." "THAT'S DISCRIMINATION!" She protests. The girl in red ultimately storms off back to her car, to wait for her companion's return.

All of this scrutiny, because she wore a different color to the party.

Your analogy doesn't work, for reasons outlined in my previous posts.

No conservative 501c4s were prevented in any way from operating by the IRS.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

While true that they are different, they are both tax exempt.

Please show me the IRS rule that states one can operate as a nonprofit before actually being approved to be nonprofit.

The main source of knowledge of this for me is the fact that I've been on the board, and involved with the incorporation, or 3 different 501c4 organizations.

But here's a source for you:

While a 501(c)(4) organization is not required to file an application for recognition of exemption, it is recommended because it provides public recognition of tax-exempt status, nonprofit mailing privileges, exemption from certain state taxes, and it avoids confusion with the IRS when filing mandatory annual reports (see Step 4)

http://afjactioncampaign.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Starting-a-501c4-Organization.pdf

Still the question you fail to answer is, how come there was still scrutiny? If it were so easy to file for 501 (c)(4) status, why did the IRS make it so damned hard for the conservative groups? Stop evading the issue.

That may be the "issue" that you were talking about - but not the one I was talking about. Perhaps you can show me where you first asked this "question" that you're claiming I'm "failing" to answer.

The IRS "made it so damned hard" for partisan political reasons. I'm not defending the actions of the IRS at all.

 

[Sunshine]

What were their damages?

It pays to read.

It’s also seeking unspecified money damages for the alleged violation of their constitutional rights and the costs associated with trying to comply with the IRS demands.

Constitutional judgments bring about treble damages.

 

[asterism]

For 501c4 organizations, that is not true. As soon as you incorporate, you can operate as a non-profit, you don't have to wait for approval.



MoveOn is a 501c4. MediaMatters is a 501c3. They are not the same thing.

While true that they are different, they are both tax exempt.

Please show me the IRS rule that states one can operate as a nonprofit before actually being approved to be nonprofit.

The main source of knowledge of this for me is the fact that I've been on the board, and involved with the incorporation, of 3 different 501c4 organizations.

But here's a source for you:

NOTE: One of the great things about a 501(c)(4) organization is that, once created, you can begin operating as a tax exempt organization right away. You do not have to wait for official recognition of your exempt status from the IRS before you can get to work.

While a 501(c)(4) organization is not required to file an application for recognition of exemption, it is recommended because it provides public recognition of tax-exempt status, nonprofit mailing privileges, exemption from certain state taxes, and it avoids confusion with the IRS when filing mandatory annual reports (see Step 4)

http://afjactioncampaign.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Starting-a-501c4-Organization.pdf

So "act as if" is a good strategy?

 

[asterism]

Applying for Exemption - Difference Between Nonprofit and Tax-Exempt Status
What is the difference between nonprofit and tax-exempt status?

Nonprofit status is a state law concept. Nonprofit status may make an organization eligible for certain benefits, such as state sales, property and income tax exemptions. Although most federal tax-exempt organizations are nonprofit organizations, organizing as a nonprofit organization at the state level does not automatically grant the organization exemption from federal income tax. To qualify as exempt from federal income tax, an organization must meet requirements set forth in the Internal Revenue Code. See Types of Tax-Exempt Organizations or Publication 557 for more information.

Applying for Exemption - Difference Between Nonprofit and Tax-Exempt Status

Straight from the IRS and that's why groups of all political persuasions that take donations file for tax exempt status.

I don't think that you're understanding what I'm saying.

I know that groups of all political persuasions file for "tax-exempt" status. As I said, I've done it myself.

The only point that I'm trying to make is that 501c4 organizations do not have to wait for their application to be approved to start operating as a "tax-exempt" organization.

According to your non-official source.

You guys are free to play fast and loose with the rules, but it's not a very professional way to do things and it would be very bad for your organization to be hit with penalties due to not being formally approved. The IRS doesn't grant mulligans.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Applying for Exemption - Difference Between Nonprofit and Tax-Exempt Status

Straight from the IRS and that's why groups of all political persuasions that take donations file for tax exempt status.

I don't think that you're understanding what I'm saying.

I know that groups of all political persuasions file for "tax-exempt" status. As I said, I've done it myself.

The only point that I'm trying to make is that 501c4 organizations do not have to wait for their application to be approved to start operating as a "tax-exempt" organization.

According to your non-official source.

You guys are free to play fast and loose with the rules, but it's not a very professional way to do things and it would be very bad for your organization to be hit with penalties due to not being formally approved. The IRS doesn't grant mulligans.

There are no penalties for operating while not being "formally approved". The worst case scenario (being rejected) would result in nothing more than a higher tax bill.

 

[asterism]

It's silly to pretend there's any difference between right-wing 501c4s and left-wing 501c4s.

Actually there is.

A couple of hot girls walk up to a night club and encounter the bouncer. One is dressed in red, the other in blue. They both show their ID and prove they're over 21. He lets the girl in the blue proceed, but he stops the girl in the red. He proceeds to scrutinize her. He asks, "how tall are you?"

"What?" She replies. "Answer or you don't get in" he explains. "5 foot 6 inches, sir; but what does the have to do with my getting in? You didn't ask the other girl--"

"Just answer a few more questions and I'll let you in" he retorted. The girl in red sighs but ultimately consents. "What is your shirt size?" "A 6, sir" she answered. "But what does the have to do with anything? I just want to have a good time like the rest of those people in there!"

The bouncer proceeds to further scrutinize her, "What shoe size are you?" The girl by now has been standing there for 15 minutes, thinking to herself "This isn't fair!"

"A 7, sir but I--" The Bouncer interrupts once more. "A couple more questions. What High School did you graduate from?" The girl by now is a bit distraught, but she answers "Gallant River High."

"Okay, last question, young lady. What color panties are you wearing?" Shocked and appalled by this question she rips the Bouncer. "That is none of your business! This has nothing to do with me getting into the club! The girl in blue was never asked any of these questions, why was I stopped?"

"Orders from the top, ma'am. The owner of this establishment's favorite color is blue, he asked me to question anyone who isn't dressed in the same color." "THAT'S DISCRIMINATION!" She protests. The girl in red ultimately storms off back to her car, to wait for her companion's return.

All of this scrutiny, because she wore a different color to the party.

Your analogy doesn't work, for reasons outlined in my previous posts.

No conservative 501c4s were prevented in any way from operating by the IRS.

Without being approved for 501(c)(4) status the groups could not claim to be operating as tax-exempt entities, greatly hampering the appeal for donors to contribute as well as many other benefits of tax exemption. Media buys are different, mail rates are higher, and until tax exempt status is granted federal taxes are required to be paid.

There is no way around the rules.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

MoveOn started as an anti-war movement, as I remember:

About:

"What is MoveOn™?
MoveOn is a community of more than 8 million Americans from all walks of life who are using the most innovative technology to lead, participate in, and win campaigns for progressive change.

For over 14 years, the MoveOn family of organizations have used online tools to lower the barriers to participation in our democracy, so real Americans have a voice in a political process where big money and corporate lobbyists wield far too much influence. Increasingly, MoveOn members and progressives are stepping up as the leaders of their own campaigns for social change, using MoveOn's cutting-edge technology, such as our SignOn.org petition tool, to tap into our collective people power by enlisting other MoveOn members' support.

The MoveOn family of organizations is not-for-profit and funded entirely by small dollar donations from our 7 million members -- no corporate contributions, no big checks from CEOs. And our tiny staff ensures that small contributions go a long way.

Our MoveOn family is made up of a couple of different pieces. MoveOn.org Civic Action, a 501(c)(4) nonprofit organization, focuses on education and advocacy, as well as on building the progressive movement by encouraging and supporting the development of more grassroots leaders. MoveOn.org Political Action, a federal PAC, is focused on demonstrating MoveOn members' power at the ballot box and electing candidates who reflect our members' values."

See that bolded up there? That "civic action"? The tea party is no "civic action". It is a political slush fund of CPACs and nothing else. Their goal is to get people elected, nothing else. They do not have a "civic action" arm as well as their PAC.

"Civic action" is a liberal euphemism meaning "left-wing propaganda." There's nothing inherent in the term "social welfare" that requires blather about "civic action." The ultimate goal of MoveOn.org is to get democrats elected. Anyone who denies it is either a moron or a liar.

The excuse liberals are using to excuse this IRS persecution is the fact that right-wing 501(c) 4 aren't willing to swallow the liberal Kool-Aid.

MoveOn is a slush fund that heavily supports liberal Democrats and their policies. George Soros gave $1.5 million to MoveOn in an effort to match donations, with the sole aim at putting a stop to President George W.Bush in the 2004 election.

MoveOn is a web-based liberal advocacy organization that raises tens of millions of dollars for Democratic Party politicians and causes from the millions of people on its e-mail list. MoveOn funds or sponsors with other liberal advocacy organizations various coalitions such as Americans Against Escalation in Iraq (AAEI), SavetheInternet.com Coalition, and Win Without War. It endorsed Barack Obama in the 2008 Democratic Party primaries, fundraised and organized for him, and has become perhaps the lead lobby organization for his policies in 2009

MoveOn - SourceWatch

 

[asterism]

I don't think that you're understanding what I'm saying.

I know that groups of all political persuasions file for "tax-exempt" status. As I said, I've done it myself.

The only point that I'm trying to make is that 501c4 organizations do not have to wait for their application to be approved to start operating as a "tax-exempt" organization.

According to your non-official source.

You guys are free to play fast and loose with the rules, but it's not a very professional way to do things and it would be very bad for your organization to be hit with penalties due to not being formally approved. The IRS doesn't grant mulligans.

There are no penalties for operating while not being "formally approved". The worst case scenario (being rejected) would result in nothing more than a higher tax bill.

I see you've never dealt with the IRS.

Not Paying Your Taxes? Your Board Could Be Personally Liable - NPQ - Nonprofit Quarterly

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Applying for Exemption - Difference Between Nonprofit and Tax-Exempt Status

Straight from the IRS and that's why groups of all political persuasions that take donations file for tax exempt status.

I don't think that you're understanding what I'm saying.

I know that groups of all political persuasions file for "tax-exempt" status. As I said, I've done it myself.

The only point that I'm trying to make is that 501c4 organizations do not have to wait for their application to be approved to start operating as a "tax-exempt" organization.

According to your non-official source.

You guys are free to play fast and loose with the rules, but it's not a very professional way to do things and it would be very bad for your organization to be hit with penalties due to not being formally approved. The IRS doesn't grant mulligans.

Actually, it's according to the many lawyers who specialize in this sort of thing that I worked with when starting a few 501c4 organizations.

It's not "playing fast and loose with the rules", it's complying with them.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Actually there is.

A couple of hot girls walk up to a night club and encounter the bouncer. One is dressed in red, the other in blue. They both show their ID and prove they're over 21. He lets the girl in the blue proceed, but he stops the girl in the red. He proceeds to scrutinize her. He asks, "how tall are you?"

"What?" She replies. "Answer or you don't get in" he explains. "5 foot 6 inches, sir; but what does the have to do with my getting in? You didn't ask the other girl--"

"Just answer a few more questions and I'll let you in" he retorted. The girl in red sighs but ultimately consents. "What is your shirt size?" "A 6, sir" she answered. "But what does the have to do with anything? I just want to have a good time like the rest of those people in there!"

The bouncer proceeds to further scrutinize her, "What shoe size are you?" The girl by now has been standing there for 15 minutes, thinking to herself "This isn't fair!"

"A 7, sir but I--" The Bouncer interrupts once more. "A couple more questions. What High School did you graduate from?" The girl by now is a bit distraught, but she answers "Gallant River High."

"Okay, last question, young lady. What color panties are you wearing?" Shocked and appalled by this question she rips the Bouncer. "That is none of your business! This has nothing to do with me getting into the club! The girl in blue was never asked any of these questions, why was I stopped?"

"Orders from the top, ma'am. The owner of this establishment's favorite color is blue, he asked me to question anyone who isn't dressed in the same color." "THAT'S DISCRIMINATION!" She protests. The girl in red ultimately storms off back to her car, to wait for her companion's return.

All of this scrutiny, because she wore a different color to the party.

Your analogy doesn't work, for reasons outlined in my previous posts.

No conservative 501c4s were prevented in any way from operating by the IRS.

Without being approved for 501(c)(4) status the groups could not claim to be operating as tax-exempt entities, greatly hampering the appeal for donors to contribute as well as many other benefits of tax exemption. Media buys are different, mail rates are higher, and until tax exempt status is granted federal taxes are required to be paid.

There is no way around the rules.

I have just repeatedly showed you that this simply is not true. I don't know why you keep repeating it as if it was.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

According to your non-official source.

You guys are free to play fast and loose with the rules, but it's not a very professional way to do things and it would be very bad for your organization to be hit with penalties due to not being formally approved. The IRS doesn't grant mulligans.

There are no penalties for operating while not being "formally approved". The worst case scenario (being rejected) would result in nothing more than a higher tax bill.

I see you've never dealt with the IRS.

Not Paying Your Taxes? Your Board Could Be Personally Liable - NPQ - Nonprofit Quarterly

Your link concerns employee withholding tax, and is entirely irrelevant to what we're talking about.

 

[rightwinger]

What were their damages?

It pays to read.

It’s also seeking unspecified money damages for the alleged violation of their constitutional rights and the costs associated with trying to comply with the IRS demands.

I would award damages of $1

How bout you?