Can We Please Get Rid of the Pledge?

[StLucieBengal]

Let us all worship the state, after all, it's what God wants.

Actually, without God all you are worshipping is the state.

In rare agreement, hence my distaste for nationalism.

Then you should be equal in your distaste for progressivism and socialism as well?

One of those is not like the other...

I agree nationalism is less of a problem. But the worst of nationalism is equal to normal progressivism and socialism.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

The Pledge of Allegiance is not an expression of patriotism. It is a loyalty oath that one normally associates with totalitarian regimes. People who love freedom, should be appalled by the idea our children are being coerced to stand and declare their support for the state. This is the worst form of indoctrination and it is completely anathema to the principals articulated in the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I cannot imagine outspoken libertarians like Thomas Jefferson or Tom Paine ever proclaiming their loyalty to the state when they correctly saw the state as the greatest threat to individual freedom. Which it is.

Now I know that many people think the Pledge is simply an affirmation of their respect for the flag, their love for the country, and their gratitude to the men and women who fought in America’s wars. But that’s not what it is. The Pledge is an attempt to impose conformity on the masses and compel them to click their heels and proclaim their devotion to the Fatherland. That’s not how it’s supposed to work in a democracy. In a democracy, the representatives of the state are supposed to pledge their loyalty to the people and to the laws that protect them. That’s the correct relationship between the state and the people. The Pledge turns that whole concept on its head.

Now I’d have no problem if our schoolchildren recited the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence before class every day:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

That’s great stuff, unfortunately, the people who run this country would never allow it. They’d never allow our kids to recite an incendiary, revolutionary document like that every day for fear it would incite violence against the state. What they want is “good Germans”, not revolutionaries, not freedom-loving populists, and not well-informed, critical thinking individuals who can see through the sham of their jingoistic propaganda. They want people who are going to follow the rules, do what they’re told, fight the wars, and perform their worktime drudgery for 30 or 40 years until they’re carted off to the glue factory. That’s what they want. Reciting the Pledge fits perfectly with this dumbed-down version of permanent indentured servitude. It provides the ideological foundation for bovine acquiescence to the demands of the state and the crooks who run it behind the tri-color banner.

The fact that institutions like the Pledge are never challenged in a public format, points to deeper problems with the media and the way our kids are being educated. And while I don’t have time to talk about that now, it makes me wonder where are the people to question these silly recitations that undermine democracy and personal liberty? Why are their voices never heard?
---------------------------------

Read the rest here:
Can We Please Get Rid of the Pledge?

Interesting perspective, one that I've shared for years but never bothered to articulate as well as this author did. Your thoughts?

You pansies pick the stupidest shit to whine about. Find your nearest safe space & take shelter pussy

Not "whining" about it, prison bitch boi. I found the article and I thought it was interesting and I knew it would get you guys riled up, so I thought it would be an interesting topic.

You are indeed whining about it. There is nothing remotely interesting about the Left's agenda to dismantle the America we all grew up in. Hiding behind the article is pointless. You posted it so own it crybaby

 

[Coyote]

Let us all worship the state, after all, it's what God wants.

Actually, without God all you are worshipping is the state.

In rare agreement, hence my distaste for nationalism.

Then you should be equal in your distaste for progressivism and socialism as well?

One of those is not like the other...

I agree nationalism is less of a problem. But the worst of nationalism is equal to normal progressivism and socialism.

I tend to think that the extremes of "isms" have more in common with each other then they do with their own mainstreams.

 

[Coyote]

The Pledge of Allegiance is not an expression of patriotism. It is a loyalty oath that one normally associates with totalitarian regimes. People who love freedom, should be appalled by the idea our children are being coerced to stand and declare their support for the state. This is the worst form of indoctrination and it is completely anathema to the principals articulated in the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I cannot imagine outspoken libertarians like Thomas Jefferson or Tom Paine ever proclaiming their loyalty to the state when they correctly saw the state as the greatest threat to individual freedom. Which it is.

Now I know that many people think the Pledge is simply an affirmation of their respect for the flag, their love for the country, and their gratitude to the men and women who fought in America’s wars. But that’s not what it is. The Pledge is an attempt to impose conformity on the masses and compel them to click their heels and proclaim their devotion to the Fatherland. That’s not how it’s supposed to work in a democracy. In a democracy, the representatives of the state are supposed to pledge their loyalty to the people and to the laws that protect them. That’s the correct relationship between the state and the people. The Pledge turns that whole concept on its head.

Now I’d have no problem if our schoolchildren recited the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence before class every day:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

That’s great stuff, unfortunately, the people who run this country would never allow it. They’d never allow our kids to recite an incendiary, revolutionary document like that every day for fear it would incite violence against the state. What they want is “good Germans”, not revolutionaries, not freedom-loving populists, and not well-informed, critical thinking individuals who can see through the sham of their jingoistic propaganda. They want people who are going to follow the rules, do what they’re told, fight the wars, and perform their worktime drudgery for 30 or 40 years until they’re carted off to the glue factory. That’s what they want. Reciting the Pledge fits perfectly with this dumbed-down version of permanent indentured servitude. It provides the ideological foundation for bovine acquiescence to the demands of the state and the crooks who run it behind the tri-color banner.

The fact that institutions like the Pledge are never challenged in a public format, points to deeper problems with the media and the way our kids are being educated. And while I don’t have time to talk about that now, it makes me wonder where are the people to question these silly recitations that undermine democracy and personal liberty? Why are their voices never heard?
---------------------------------

Read the rest here:
Can We Please Get Rid of the Pledge?

Interesting perspective, one that I've shared for years but never bothered to articulate as well as this author did. Your thoughts?

You pansies pick the stupidest shit to whine about. Find your nearest safe space & take shelter pussy

Not "whining" about it, prison bitch boi. I found the article and I thought it was interesting and I knew it would get you guys riled up, so I thought it would be an interesting topic.

You are indeed whining about it. There is nothing remotely interesting about the Left's agenda to dismantle the America we all grew up in. Hiding behind the article is pointless. You posted it so own it crybaby

The America my grandmother grew up in did not allow her to work after marriage. The America my mother grew up in rarely accepted women into PHD programs in sciences, or allowed women to earn credit independent of her husband...the America I grew up in, is far better but we have yet to elect a woman president. Which America are we dismantling?

 

[Foxfyre]

If that is your religion, why must everyone conform to it?

I haven't said that people must conform to it, but Leftist Extremists are demanding that we just remove any and all reference to God everywhere on this planet, they're in every Western nation preaching the anti-God mantra.

And the extremist on the right want to enforce their religious dogma, yet in the middle is the best place to meet.........

We better not mention the worst of all, Islam, the very name meaning "to submit" and/or "submission"

More accurately, it's to submit to the will of God and obedience to his law. Kind of sounds like you and your authoritarian streak, actually.

Or...anyone who submits to God....

Don't confuse a need for order and discipline with "authoritarian"

My problem with God is I've never been good at the submission bit.....but she's patient

But I think the point to reinforce with our kids, with each other, with all is that the "God" we trust in on our currency and the "God" of the pledge is not a call to submit to or worship anything. It is a recognition that we are a people who formed a nation on the concept that there is a higher principle than we humans, a higher principle than any Monarch, dictator, Pope, or any other human that holds power. A principle that we all are born with certain unalienable rights that must be recognized and must never be infringed by the central government. Since the Founders called these unalienable rights "God given" instead of a perhaps more secular term "natural rights", that is the God on our coinage, in the Pledge, in the National Anthem, and in the Constitutions of all 50 states.

And God is a gender neutral word so far as history is concerned.

 

[deltex1]

The Pledge of Allegiance is not an expression of patriotism. It is a loyalty oath that one normally associates with totalitarian regimes. People who love freedom, should be appalled by the idea our children are being coerced to stand and declare their support for the state. This is the worst form of indoctrination and it is completely anathema to the principals articulated in the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I cannot imagine outspoken libertarians like Thomas Jefferson or Tom Paine ever proclaiming their loyalty to the state when they correctly saw the state as the greatest threat to individual freedom. Which it is.

Now I know that many people think the Pledge is simply an affirmation of their respect for the flag, their love for the country, and their gratitude to the men and women who fought in America’s wars. But that’s not what it is. The Pledge is an attempt to impose conformity on the masses and compel them to click their heels and proclaim their devotion to the Fatherland. That’s not how it’s supposed to work in a democracy. In a democracy, the representatives of the state are supposed to pledge their loyalty to the people and to the laws that protect them. That’s the correct relationship between the state and the people. The Pledge turns that whole concept on its head.

Now I’d have no problem if our schoolchildren recited the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence before class every day:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

That’s great stuff, unfortunately, the people who run this country would never allow it. They’d never allow our kids to recite an incendiary, revolutionary document like that every day for fear it would incite violence against the state. What they want is “good Germans”, not revolutionaries, not freedom-loving populists, and not well-informed, critical thinking individuals who can see through the sham of their jingoistic propaganda. They want people who are going to follow the rules, do what they’re told, fight the wars, and perform their worktime drudgery for 30 or 40 years until they’re carted off to the glue factory. That’s what they want. Reciting the Pledge fits perfectly with this dumbed-down version of permanent indentured servitude. It provides the ideological foundation for bovine acquiescence to the demands of the state and the crooks who run it behind the tri-color banner.

The fact that institutions like the Pledge are never challenged in a public format, points to deeper problems with the media and the way our kids are being educated. And while I don’t have time to talk about that now, it makes me wonder where are the people to question these silly recitations that undermine democracy and personal liberty? Why are their voices never heard?
---------------------------------

Read the rest here:
Can We Please Get Rid of the Pledge?

Interesting perspective, one that I've shared for years but never bothered to articulate as well as this author did. Your thoughts?

How about we just get rid of you and your whiner friends like Colon Kaepernick...

 

[SYTFE]

Nationalism is, I think a confusing term. Both black and white.

There is nothing wrong with patriotism, being proud of one's heritage and history.

Problems occur when instead of being inclusive, it's exclusive and is used as a weapon to exlude those - who's hearts may be in the right place, but who's heritage is not.

Nationalism is a potent weapon in the hands of populists and it has led to some of the worst atrocities of the modern age.

I think it's better to be proud of one's culture and country for what it IS and, even more - for what it CAN BE - can be for those coming to it for the first time. To welcome them in, knowing that you have something vibrant, ancient yet still thriving to offer them in place of what they are fleeing. Nationalism can be a closed door that looks suspicously upon incomers ready to reject or it can be a welcoming presence because it is proud of nation, and not threatened by diversity around it.

I basically agree with what you're saying. Nothing inherently wrong with patriotism, other than the fact that it can lead to extremism.

The Pledge of Allegiance is not an expression of patriotism. It is a loyalty oath that one normally associates with totalitarian regimes. People who love freedom, should be appalled by the idea our children are being coerced to stand and declare their support for the state. This is the worst form of indoctrination and it is completely anathema to the principals articulated in the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I cannot imagine outspoken libertarians like Thomas Jefferson or Tom Paine ever proclaiming their loyalty to the state when they correctly saw the state as the greatest threat to individual freedom. Which it is.

Now I know that many people think the Pledge is simply an affirmation of their respect for the flag, their love for the country, and their gratitude to the men and women who fought in America’s wars. But that’s not what it is. The Pledge is an attempt to impose conformity on the masses and compel them to click their heels and proclaim their devotion to the Fatherland. That’s not how it’s supposed to work in a democracy. In a democracy, the representatives of the state are supposed to pledge their loyalty to the people and to the laws that protect them. That’s the correct relationship between the state and the people. The Pledge turns that whole concept on its head.

Now I’d have no problem if our schoolchildren recited the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence before class every day:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

That’s great stuff, unfortunately, the people who run this country would never allow it. They’d never allow our kids to recite an incendiary, revolutionary document like that every day for fear it would incite violence against the state. What they want is “good Germans”, not revolutionaries, not freedom-loving populists, and not well-informed, critical thinking individuals who can see through the sham of their jingoistic propaganda. They want people who are going to follow the rules, do what they’re told, fight the wars, and perform their worktime drudgery for 30 or 40 years until they’re carted off to the glue factory. That’s what they want. Reciting the Pledge fits perfectly with this dumbed-down version of permanent indentured servitude. It provides the ideological foundation for bovine acquiescence to the demands of the state and the crooks who run it behind the tri-color banner.

The fact that institutions like the Pledge are never challenged in a public format, points to deeper problems with the media and the way our kids are being educated. And while I don’t have time to talk about that now, it makes me wonder where are the people to question these silly recitations that undermine democracy and personal liberty? Why are their voices never heard?
---------------------------------

Read the rest here:
Can We Please Get Rid of the Pledge?

Interesting perspective, one that I've shared for years but never bothered to articulate as well as this author did. Your thoughts?

How about we just get rid of you and your whiner friends like Colon Kaepernick...

Try it and see what happens, authoritarian "tough guy."

 

[saveliberty]

Dumping the pledge is just another attempt by the left to create division where unity can grow, to erase history so they can rewrite it, to make the roots of socialism take root. There is nothing wrong with sharing a pledge amongst the races and classes. The OP is simply spreading anarchy, hate and slavery to his ideas.

 

[Coyote]

Nationalism is, I think a confusing term. Both black and white.

There is nothing wrong with patriotism, being proud of one's heritage and history.

Problems occur when instead of being inclusive, it's exclusive and is used as a weapon to exlude those - who's hearts may be in the right place, but who's heritage is not.

Nationalism is a potent weapon in the hands of populists and it has led to some of the worst atrocities of the modern age.

I think it's better to be proud of one's culture and country for what it IS and, even more - for what it CAN BE - can be for those coming to it for the first time. To welcome them in, knowing that you have something vibrant, ancient yet still thriving to offer them in place of what they are fleeing. Nationalism can be a closed door that looks suspicously upon incomers ready to reject or it can be a welcoming presence because it is proud of nation, and not threatened by diversity around it.

I basically agree with what you're saying. Nothing inherently wrong with patriotism, other than the fact that it can lead to extremism.

The Pledge of Allegiance is not an expression of patriotism. It is a loyalty oath that one normally associates with totalitarian regimes. People who love freedom, should be appalled by the idea our children are being coerced to stand and declare their support for the state. This is the worst form of indoctrination and it is completely anathema to the principals articulated in the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I cannot imagine outspoken libertarians like Thomas Jefferson or Tom Paine ever proclaiming their loyalty to the state when they correctly saw the state as the greatest threat to individual freedom. Which it is.

Now I know that many people think the Pledge is simply an affirmation of their respect for the flag, their love for the country, and their gratitude to the men and women who fought in America’s wars. But that’s not what it is. The Pledge is an attempt to impose conformity on the masses and compel them to click their heels and proclaim their devotion to the Fatherland. That’s not how it’s supposed to work in a democracy. In a democracy, the representatives of the state are supposed to pledge their loyalty to the people and to the laws that protect them. That’s the correct relationship between the state and the people. The Pledge turns that whole concept on its head.

Now I’d have no problem if our schoolchildren recited the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence before class every day:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

That’s great stuff, unfortunately, the people who run this country would never allow it. They’d never allow our kids to recite an incendiary, revolutionary document like that every day for fear it would incite violence against the state. What they want is “good Germans”, not revolutionaries, not freedom-loving populists, and not well-informed, critical thinking individuals who can see through the sham of their jingoistic propaganda. They want people who are going to follow the rules, do what they’re told, fight the wars, and perform their worktime drudgery for 30 or 40 years until they’re carted off to the glue factory. That’s what they want. Reciting the Pledge fits perfectly with this dumbed-down version of permanent indentured servitude. It provides the ideological foundation for bovine acquiescence to the demands of the state and the crooks who run it behind the tri-color banner.

The fact that institutions like the Pledge are never challenged in a public format, points to deeper problems with the media and the way our kids are being educated. And while I don’t have time to talk about that now, it makes me wonder where are the people to question these silly recitations that undermine democracy and personal liberty? Why are their voices never heard?
---------------------------------

Read the rest here:
Can We Please Get Rid of the Pledge?

Interesting perspective, one that I've shared for years but never bothered to articulate as well as this author did. Your thoughts?

How about we just get rid of you and your whiner friends like Colon Kaepernick...

Try it and see what happens, authoritarian "tough guy."

Extremism is usually the problem alas...

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

The Pledge of Allegiance is not an expression of patriotism. It is a loyalty oath that one normally associates with totalitarian regimes. People who love freedom, should be appalled by the idea our children are being coerced to stand and declare their support for the state. This is the worst form of indoctrination and it is completely anathema to the principals articulated in the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I cannot imagine outspoken libertarians like Thomas Jefferson or Tom Paine ever proclaiming their loyalty to the state when they correctly saw the state as the greatest threat to individual freedom. Which it is.

Now I know that many people think the Pledge is simply an affirmation of their respect for the flag, their love for the country, and their gratitude to the men and women who fought in America’s wars. But that’s not what it is. The Pledge is an attempt to impose conformity on the masses and compel them to click their heels and proclaim their devotion to the Fatherland. That’s not how it’s supposed to work in a democracy. In a democracy, the representatives of the state are supposed to pledge their loyalty to the people and to the laws that protect them. That’s the correct relationship between the state and the people. The Pledge turns that whole concept on its head.

Now I’d have no problem if our schoolchildren recited the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence before class every day:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

That’s great stuff, unfortunately, the people who run this country would never allow it. They’d never allow our kids to recite an incendiary, revolutionary document like that every day for fear it would incite violence against the state. What they want is “good Germans”, not revolutionaries, not freedom-loving populists, and not well-informed, critical thinking individuals who can see through the sham of their jingoistic propaganda. They want people who are going to follow the rules, do what they’re told, fight the wars, and perform their worktime drudgery for 30 or 40 years until they’re carted off to the glue factory. That’s what they want. Reciting the Pledge fits perfectly with this dumbed-down version of permanent indentured servitude. It provides the ideological foundation for bovine acquiescence to the demands of the state and the crooks who run it behind the tri-color banner.

The fact that institutions like the Pledge are never challenged in a public format, points to deeper problems with the media and the way our kids are being educated. And while I don’t have time to talk about that now, it makes me wonder where are the people to question these silly recitations that undermine democracy and personal liberty? Why are their voices never heard?
---------------------------------

Read the rest here:
Can We Please Get Rid of the Pledge?

Interesting perspective, one that I've shared for years but never bothered to articulate as well as this author did. Your thoughts?

You pansies pick the stupidest shit to whine about. Find your nearest safe space & take shelter pussy

Not "whining" about it, prison bitch boi. I found the article and I thought it was interesting and I knew it would get you guys riled up, so I thought it would be an interesting topic.

You are indeed whining about it. There is nothing remotely interesting about the Left's agenda to dismantle the America we all grew up in. Hiding behind the article is pointless. You posted it so own it crybaby

The America my grandmother grew up in did not allow her to work after marriage. The America my mother grew up in rarely accepted women into PHD programs in sciences, or allowed women to earn credit independent of her husband...the America I grew up in, is far better but we have yet to elect a woman president. Which America are we dismantling?

Unlike you apparently, I am not ancient. The America I grew up in was a great country. Was is the keyword. It is now soiled with leftist scumbags seeking to knock it down a notch or two.

 

[Foxfyre]

On Flag Day, burn one. That will show true liberty, not that false crap conservatives love.

It might be legal if but Hossfly catches any one burning an American flag they had better be prepared to receive a major ass kicking. Also anyone not rendering the flag the proper respect will be chastised physically. Don't say anything about Hossfly going to jail. Tain't possible.

Well Hossfly, as much as I have a huge case of like with you, I can't condone physical violence when people exercise the liberty that the Pledge, the National Anthem, and the flag represent by disrespecting these symbols that are so important to so many of us. I might not object to a well phrased verbal ass kicking though.

In one hour I am having dinner with about 30 guys who are the only survivors of my company from November 1965. In a 4 day period we had around 250 members of my Regiment killed on the battlefield. Many more have died since from various forms of cancer caused by Agent Orange. All of us here tonight are 100% disabled veterans who have survived those cancers. So you will have to excuse Hossfly for being in a violent mood when it comes to THE FLAG. I have to get ready for dinner now. I don't want to miss joining the group to pledge allegiance to that sacred (to us) flag.

Love ya Hoss

Me too. And I wish I could show up at that dinner to salute every one of those guys.

 

[Coyote]

Dumping the pledge is just another attempt by the left to create division where unity can grow, to erase history so they can rewrite it, to make the roots of socialism take root. There is nothing wrong with sharing a pledge amongst the races and classes. The OP is simply spreading anarchy, hate and slavery to his ideas.

Socialist critter that I often am, I always liked that the Pledge was written by a socialist.

But even more - what I liked was it's idea of one nation undivided, after the horror of our civil war - we'd never be divided again. It should remind us that, despite partisanship we are after all - all Americans. We may have differing ideas of what it means to be American, of the direction our country should take but we all want what's best and in the end, we are American.

 

[Moonglow]

I haven't said that people must conform to it, but Leftist Extremists are demanding that we just remove any and all reference to God everywhere on this planet, they're in every Western nation preaching the anti-God mantra.

And the extremist on the right want to enforce their religious dogma, yet in the middle is the best place to meet.........

We better not mention the worst of all, Islam, the very name meaning "to submit" and/or "submission"

More accurately, it's to submit to the will of God and obedience to his law. Kind of sounds like you and your authoritarian streak, actually.

Or...anyone who submits to God....

Don't confuse a need for order and discipline with "authoritarian"

My problem with God is I've never been good at the submission bit.....but she's patient

But I think the point to reinforce with our kids, with each other, with all is that the "God" we trust in on our currency and the "God" of the pledge is not a call to submit to or worship anything. It is a recognition that we are a people who formed a nation on the concept that there is a higher principle than we humans, a higher principle than any Monarch, dictator, Pope, or any other human that holds power. A principle that we all are born with certain unalienable rights that must be recognized and must never be infringed by the central government. Since the Founders called these unalienable rights "God given" instead of a perhaps more secular term "natural rights", that is the God on our coinage, in the Pledge, in the National Anthem, and in the Constitutions of all 50 states.

And God is a gender neutral word so far as history is concerned.

yet the stanza with God mentioned is never sung....

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Nationalism is, I think a confusing term. Both black and white.

There is nothing wrong with patriotism, being proud of one's heritage and history.

Problems occur when instead of being inclusive, it's exclusive and is used as a weapon to exlude those - who's hearts may be in the right place, but who's heritage is not.

Nationalism is a potent weapon in the hands of populists and it has led to some of the worst atrocities of the modern age.

I think it's better to be proud of one's culture and country for what it IS and, even more - for what it CAN BE - can be for those coming to it for the first time. To welcome them in, knowing that you have something vibrant, ancient yet still thriving to offer them in place of what they are fleeing. Nationalism can be a closed door that looks suspicously upon incomers ready to reject or it can be a welcoming presence because it is proud of nation, and not threatened by diversity around it.

I basically agree with what you're saying. Nothing inherently wrong with patriotism, other than the fact that it can lead to extremism.

The Pledge of Allegiance is not an expression of patriotism. It is a loyalty oath that one normally associates with totalitarian regimes. People who love freedom, should be appalled by the idea our children are being coerced to stand and declare their support for the state. This is the worst form of indoctrination and it is completely anathema to the principals articulated in the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I cannot imagine outspoken libertarians like Thomas Jefferson or Tom Paine ever proclaiming their loyalty to the state when they correctly saw the state as the greatest threat to individual freedom. Which it is.

Now I know that many people think the Pledge is simply an affirmation of their respect for the flag, their love for the country, and their gratitude to the men and women who fought in America’s wars. But that’s not what it is. The Pledge is an attempt to impose conformity on the masses and compel them to click their heels and proclaim their devotion to the Fatherland. That’s not how it’s supposed to work in a democracy. In a democracy, the representatives of the state are supposed to pledge their loyalty to the people and to the laws that protect them. That’s the correct relationship between the state and the people. The Pledge turns that whole concept on its head.

Now I’d have no problem if our schoolchildren recited the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence before class every day:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

That’s great stuff, unfortunately, the people who run this country would never allow it. They’d never allow our kids to recite an incendiary, revolutionary document like that every day for fear it would incite violence against the state. What they want is “good Germans”, not revolutionaries, not freedom-loving populists, and not well-informed, critical thinking individuals who can see through the sham of their jingoistic propaganda. They want people who are going to follow the rules, do what they’re told, fight the wars, and perform their worktime drudgery for 30 or 40 years until they’re carted off to the glue factory. That’s what they want. Reciting the Pledge fits perfectly with this dumbed-down version of permanent indentured servitude. It provides the ideological foundation for bovine acquiescence to the demands of the state and the crooks who run it behind the tri-color banner.

The fact that institutions like the Pledge are never challenged in a public format, points to deeper problems with the media and the way our kids are being educated. And while I don’t have time to talk about that now, it makes me wonder where are the people to question these silly recitations that undermine democracy and personal liberty? Why are their voices never heard?
---------------------------------

Read the rest here:
Can We Please Get Rid of the Pledge?

Interesting perspective, one that I've shared for years but never bothered to articulate as well as this author did. Your thoughts?

How about we just get rid of you and your whiner friends like Colon Kaepernick...

Try it and see what happens, authoritarian "tough guy."

Extremism is usually the problem alas...

A perfect example of my last post. This thread is about the Pledge and your point of reference is that any support of American tradition is extremism.

 

[Coyote]

The Pledge of Allegiance is not an expression of patriotism. It is a loyalty oath that one normally associates with totalitarian regimes. People who love freedom, should be appalled by the idea our children are being coerced to stand and declare their support for the state. This is the worst form of indoctrination and it is completely anathema to the principals articulated in the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I cannot imagine outspoken libertarians like Thomas Jefferson or Tom Paine ever proclaiming their loyalty to the state when they correctly saw the state as the greatest threat to individual freedom. Which it is.

Now I know that many people think the Pledge is simply an affirmation of their respect for the flag, their love for the country, and their gratitude to the men and women who fought in America’s wars. But that’s not what it is. The Pledge is an attempt to impose conformity on the masses and compel them to click their heels and proclaim their devotion to the Fatherland. That’s not how it’s supposed to work in a democracy. In a democracy, the representatives of the state are supposed to pledge their loyalty to the people and to the laws that protect them. That’s the correct relationship between the state and the people. The Pledge turns that whole concept on its head.

Now I’d have no problem if our schoolchildren recited the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence before class every day:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

That’s great stuff, unfortunately, the people who run this country would never allow it. They’d never allow our kids to recite an incendiary, revolutionary document like that every day for fear it would incite violence against the state. What they want is “good Germans”, not revolutionaries, not freedom-loving populists, and not well-informed, critical thinking individuals who can see through the sham of their jingoistic propaganda. They want people who are going to follow the rules, do what they’re told, fight the wars, and perform their worktime drudgery for 30 or 40 years until they’re carted off to the glue factory. That’s what they want. Reciting the Pledge fits perfectly with this dumbed-down version of permanent indentured servitude. It provides the ideological foundation for bovine acquiescence to the demands of the state and the crooks who run it behind the tri-color banner.

The fact that institutions like the Pledge are never challenged in a public format, points to deeper problems with the media and the way our kids are being educated. And while I don’t have time to talk about that now, it makes me wonder where are the people to question these silly recitations that undermine democracy and personal liberty? Why are their voices never heard?
---------------------------------

Read the rest here:
Can We Please Get Rid of the Pledge?

Interesting perspective, one that I've shared for years but never bothered to articulate as well as this author did. Your thoughts?

You pansies pick the stupidest shit to whine about. Find your nearest safe space & take shelter pussy

Not "whining" about it, prison bitch boi. I found the article and I thought it was interesting and I knew it would get you guys riled up, so I thought it would be an interesting topic.

You are indeed whining about it. There is nothing remotely interesting about the Left's agenda to dismantle the America we all grew up in. Hiding behind the article is pointless. You posted it so own it crybaby

The America my grandmother grew up in did not allow her to work after marriage. The America my mother grew up in rarely accepted women into PHD programs in sciences, or allowed women to earn credit independent of her husband...the America I grew up in, is far better but we have yet to elect a woman president. Which America are we dismantling?

Unlike you apparently, I am not ancient. The America I grew up in was a great country. Was is the keyword. It is now soiled with leftist scumbags seeking to knock it down a notch or two.

See, I think you are wrong - I don't think it "was" - I think it is. I think it's always growing and changing. Stasis is stagnation.

 

[saveliberty]

Extremism is usually the problem alas...

Extremism grows out of isolationism, which is born of making divisions among people. That is the work of the OP, so if you wish to avoid it, reject the OP.

 

[Coyote]

Nationalism is, I think a confusing term. Both black and white.

There is nothing wrong with patriotism, being proud of one's heritage and history.

Problems occur when instead of being inclusive, it's exclusive and is used as a weapon to exlude those - who's hearts may be in the right place, but who's heritage is not.

Nationalism is a potent weapon in the hands of populists and it has led to some of the worst atrocities of the modern age.

I think it's better to be proud of one's culture and country for what it IS and, even more - for what it CAN BE - can be for those coming to it for the first time. To welcome them in, knowing that you have something vibrant, ancient yet still thriving to offer them in place of what they are fleeing. Nationalism can be a closed door that looks suspicously upon incomers ready to reject or it can be a welcoming presence because it is proud of nation, and not threatened by diversity around it.

I basically agree with what you're saying. Nothing inherently wrong with patriotism, other than the fact that it can lead to extremism.

The Pledge of Allegiance is not an expression of patriotism. It is a loyalty oath that one normally associates with totalitarian regimes. People who love freedom, should be appalled by the idea our children are being coerced to stand and declare their support for the state. This is the worst form of indoctrination and it is completely anathema to the principals articulated in the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I cannot imagine outspoken libertarians like Thomas Jefferson or Tom Paine ever proclaiming their loyalty to the state when they correctly saw the state as the greatest threat to individual freedom. Which it is.

Now I know that many people think the Pledge is simply an affirmation of their respect for the flag, their love for the country, and their gratitude to the men and women who fought in America’s wars. But that’s not what it is. The Pledge is an attempt to impose conformity on the masses and compel them to click their heels and proclaim their devotion to the Fatherland. That’s not how it’s supposed to work in a democracy. In a democracy, the representatives of the state are supposed to pledge their loyalty to the people and to the laws that protect them. That’s the correct relationship between the state and the people. The Pledge turns that whole concept on its head.

Now I’d have no problem if our schoolchildren recited the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence before class every day:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

That’s great stuff, unfortunately, the people who run this country would never allow it. They’d never allow our kids to recite an incendiary, revolutionary document like that every day for fear it would incite violence against the state. What they want is “good Germans”, not revolutionaries, not freedom-loving populists, and not well-informed, critical thinking individuals who can see through the sham of their jingoistic propaganda. They want people who are going to follow the rules, do what they’re told, fight the wars, and perform their worktime drudgery for 30 or 40 years until they’re carted off to the glue factory. That’s what they want. Reciting the Pledge fits perfectly with this dumbed-down version of permanent indentured servitude. It provides the ideological foundation for bovine acquiescence to the demands of the state and the crooks who run it behind the tri-color banner.

The fact that institutions like the Pledge are never challenged in a public format, points to deeper problems with the media and the way our kids are being educated. And while I don’t have time to talk about that now, it makes me wonder where are the people to question these silly recitations that undermine democracy and personal liberty? Why are their voices never heard?
---------------------------------

Read the rest here:
Can We Please Get Rid of the Pledge?

Interesting perspective, one that I've shared for years but never bothered to articulate as well as this author did. Your thoughts?

How about we just get rid of you and your whiner friends like Colon Kaepernick...

Try it and see what happens, authoritarian "tough guy."

Extremism is usually the problem alas...

A perfect example of my last post. This thread is about the Pledge and your point of reference is that any support of American tradition is extremism.

Except...I don't.

I don't think any support of American tradition is extremism.

Those are your interpretations.

 

[SYTFE]

Dumping the pledge is just another attempt by the left to create division where unity can grow, to erase history so they can rewrite it, to make the roots of socialism take root. There is nothing wrong with sharing a pledge amongst the races and classes. The OP is simply spreading anarchy, hate and slavery to his ideas.

It just cracks me up that you don't realize that the Pledge of Allegiance was written by a socialist.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

You pansies pick the stupidest shit to whine about. Find your nearest safe space & take shelter pussy

Not "whining" about it, prison bitch boi. I found the article and I thought it was interesting and I knew it would get you guys riled up, so I thought it would be an interesting topic.

You are indeed whining about it. There is nothing remotely interesting about the Left's agenda to dismantle the America we all grew up in. Hiding behind the article is pointless. You posted it so own it crybaby

The America my grandmother grew up in did not allow her to work after marriage. The America my mother grew up in rarely accepted women into PHD programs in sciences, or allowed women to earn credit independent of her husband...the America I grew up in, is far better but we have yet to elect a woman president. Which America are we dismantling?

Unlike you apparently, I am not ancient. The America I grew up in was a great country. Was is the keyword. It is now soiled with leftist scumbags seeking to knock it down a notch or two.

See, I think you are wrong - I don't think it "was" - I think it is. I think it's always growing and changing. Stasis is stagnation.

Most of America disagrees with you. Just look at the wrong track poll numbers. You are in the minority, where you belong I might add.

 

[Wyatt earp]

[QUOT

I like the flag too. Flying the flag in front of your house is cool.

But isn't it kind of weird to do it year round? Those people are usually a bit nutty. Break it out on holidays,Veterans day, 4th of july, etc.

Nah, it's okay. Just don't have one of those giant flags that's as big as the house.

I'll admit I tend to look unfavorably on any American who finds the Pledge or the National Anthem or displaying the flag uncomfortable or annoying or offensive. All are such symbols and expressions of liberty and all this country was intended to stand for, I can't find any reason to want any of that removed. They don't hurt anybody and I don't understand how other people enjoying the symbolism should bother anybody if they don't.

Nationalism is disgusting. Expressing extreme pride in the state -- especially when you had no fucking say in the matter -- is disgusting. What sort of idiot takes that much pride in something they had no choice in? Oh, your parents happened to have fucked in the USA? Congratulations. Wow.

As the author wrote, anything reminiscent of a totalitarian regime is wrong. I know you love authoritarianism, so you have a hard time wrapping your head around this concept. After all, you're "proud" of something you had no say in.

This is the best paragraph in the article, "Now I know that many people think the Pledge is simply an affirmation of their respect for the flag, their love for the country, and their gratitude to the men and women who fought in America’s wars. But that’s not what it is. The Pledge is an attempt to impose conformity on the masses and compel them to click their heels and proclaim their devotion to the Fatherland. That’s not how it’s supposed to work in a democracy. In a democracy, the representatives of the state are supposed to pledge their loyalty to the people and to the laws that protect them. That’s the correct relationship between the state and the people. The Pledge turns that whole concept on its head."

You fucking communist bastard...


You have no God Damn respect for the men who fought for your God Damn freedom, saved the world twice in two wars..

Promoted freedom around the world, and brought the world into the 21 st century..


No other country on earth can say that, sure we have our bad points liberals and conservatives both.


But we are human after all

No nation in the history of earth can claim all the good we did..


You are a fucking piece of shit...

.

Way to fly off the handle there, ya loon. Talk about unhinged...

1. Not a communist, you drooling moron.
2. No one fought for "my freedom" since 1776, so shut the fuck up with your bullshit.
3. "Promoted freedom around the world," like how we did in Iraq you mean? lol
4. Get fucked.

1. You are a communist prick

2.No one fought for your freedom since 1776? Read a history book..you stupid commie pig.

3. The Kurds are not free ? Iraq don't have free elections?

You uneducated moron.

4. Suck my left nut..