Zone1 Catholics (real ones) do NOT go against Scripture or add to it. It's a lie.

[surada]

If a child dies below the age of accountability he will go to heaven BUT here's what you're not grasping. Once that child gets older, there is no guarantee he or she is going to be a believer and follower of Christ, so that child that you are claiming is "in the family" is actually NOT in the family forever until he or she makes the decision himself!

Sprinkling water on a baby has nothing to do with salvation, and again, a baby cannot make that decision, and you can't make that decision for someone else.

There's also the commitment from the godparents to raise the child in the faith.

 

[surada]

When a child understands that he is a sinner. When a child can comprehend what took place on the cross. When they are old enough to tell right from wrong. There is no set age.
Baptism is a public profession of a desire to become a follower of Christ. To be reborn into a new life. It takes the consciousnesses of the one being baptized to understand why they want to be baptized.

And yet, while it doesn't meet the criteria of a baptism, I think it probably moves our Father to see parents openly committing the live of their child to Him.

Samson's mother committed her baby to God, and he ended up in God's Hall of Faith. Hebrews Chapter 11.

What church do you belong to?

 

[buttercup]

There's also the commitment from the godparents to raise the child in the faith.

That has to do with baby dedication.... which is not the same thing as baby baptism. As I mentioned earlier, baby dedication is biblical. (The Irish Ram brought up an example) Infant baptism is not and frankly I think it's extremely misleading.

I remember talking to a Catholic cousin of mine, and she actually thought that people are "saved" because they were sprinkled as a baby in the church, which is not only blatantly unbiblical, but a very dangerous false belief.

 

[surada]

That has to do with baby dedication.... which is not the same thing as baby baptism. As I mentioned earlier, baby dedication is biblical. (The Irish Ram brought up an example) Infant baptism is not and frankly I think it's extremely misleading.

I remember talking to a Catholic cousin of mine, and she actually thought that people are "saved" because they were sprinkled as a baby in the church, which is not only blatantly unbiblical, but a very dangerous false belief.

What church do you attend?

 

[buttercup]

What church do you attend?

I'm a born again Christian. What specific church I go to is nobody's business. If anything I have stated is unbiblical, show that is wrong, make your case.

I know where you're going with this, you want to talk about your favorite topic, Scofield and dispensationalism. Which has nothing to do with what we're currently talking about. And I clearly told you that I don't agree with those teachings, at least not the ones that contradict scripture.

 

[Meriweather]

When a child understands that he is a sinner. When a child can comprehend what took place on the cross. When they are old enough to tell right from wrong.

And that is your belief. It is not Catholic belief.

 

[surada]

I'm a born again Christian. What specific church I go to is nobody's business. If anything I have stated is unbiblical, show that is wrong, make your case.

I know where you're going with this, you want to talk about your favorite topic, Scofield and dispensationalism. Which has nothing to do with what we're currently talking about. And I clearly told you that I don't agree with those teachings, at least not the ones that contradict scripture.

I can't imagine why someone would hide their church or nit-pick a petty attack on Catholicism.

 

[Meriweather]

I remember talking to a Catholic cousin of mine, and she actually thought that people are "saved" because they were sprinkled as a baby in the church, which is not only blatantly unbiblical, but a very dangerous false belief.

Saved. Sprinkled. Not terminology used by the Catholic Church.

 

[buttercup]

Saved. Sprinkled. Not terminology used by the Catholic Church.

What is important.... the Catholic church, or what Jesus and the scriptures actually teach?

Don't get me wrong. Everyone is free to believe whatever they want. But as Christians, what is our basis, our foundation?

 

[buttercup]

I can't imagine why someone would hide their church or nit-pick a petty attack on Catholicism.

For starters, because you're deflecting. Why not address what I actually said in that post you were replying to?

If I'm wrong, why not SHOW that I am wrong, using the bible and other valid ways of disproving what I'm saying?

What church I go to does not matter, because if what I'm saying goes against Jesus or the scriptures, you should be able to show that, and refute what I'm saying. You haven't done that, you've just been deflecting.

 

[surada]

For starters, because you're deflecting. Why not address what I actually said in that post you were replying to?

If I'm wrong, why not SHOW that I am wrong, using the bible and other valid ways of disproving what I'm saying?

What church I go to does not matter, because if what I'm saying goes against Jesus or the scriptures, you should be able to show that, and refute what I'm saying. You haven't done that, you've just been deflecting.

How does infant baptism go against Jesus? The Catholic side of my family celebrates everything.. every milestone in a child's life. What did you do for your children?

 

[The Irish Ram]

You ever hear of the council of Nicaea BC?
~S~

The Council of Nicaea prayed and God directed their actions. If everything that was written was included, the Bible would be to heavy to lift.

 

[The Irish Ram]

How does infant baptism go against Jesus? The Catholic side of my family celebrates everything.. every milestone in a child's life. What did you do for your children?

It goes against the definition of baptism. A person being baptized needs to participate. Ask a one year old why they were baptized.
Celebrate is great. We all love to celebrate our children and their milestones. It's just not Baptism.

 

[buttercup]

How does infant baptism go against Jesus? The Catholic side of my family celebrates everything.. every milestone in a child's life. What did you do for your children?

Because there are numerous scriptures that teach that baptism is linked to BELIEF, and there are clear examples in the Bible that water baptism comes AFTER one believes and makes the conscious choice to follow Jesus. As was stated before, a baby cannot make that decision.

Again, dedicating a baby is something else, and that's a good thing...but of course it's still not about the baby becoming a believer, it's a ceremony where the parents publicly commit to raising their child in the ways of God, and people pray for them, etc.

 

[The Irish Ram]

And that is your belief. It is not Catholic belief.

Actually, it is the definition of Baptize. A person's committing to Christ. In the Bible, hearing the word and getting baptized go hand in hand. The baptized person is the main participant:
Repent and be baptized.
Col2:12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
^
A baby can do none of those things. The baptized in the Bible were old enough to do all of those things.
Was Mary remiss in letting Jesus wait to be baptized until He was 30 and ready to receive the Holy Spirit?

 

[Meriweather]

What is important.... the Catholic church, or what Jesus and the scriptures actually teach?

Let the little children come to me.

 

[Meriweather]

In the Bible, hearing the word and getting baptized go hand in hand. The baptized person is the main participant:

You are saying that according to the Bible people shouldn't hear the word until they are ready to be baptized. After all, they go hand in hand. In a Catholic family, all--no matter the age--are immersed in the Kingdom of God. No one is left on the outside. Those who want to do it differently, do it differently. That determination to keep people as far from God as possible for as long as possible and in as many ways as possible is staggering.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

You are saying that according to the Bible people shouldn't hear the word until they are ready to be baptized. After all, they go hand in hand. In a Catholic family, all--no matter the age--are immersed in the Kingdom of God. No one is left on the outside. Those who want to do it differently, do it differently. That determination to keep people as far from God as possible for as long as possible and in as many ways as possible is staggering.

Do infants "bring forth fruit fitting of repentance"?

The more you talk the more I see the great gulf between Catholicism and Christianity.

 

[buttercup]

Let the little children come to me.

You didn't answer my question. As for that scripture, of course Jesus loves children and of course God wants believing parents to raise their children in the ways of God (Proverbs 22:6) and of course believing parents want their children to come to Jesus, that's why they take their children to church, Sunday school, etc.

In other words, no one on this thread has said that children should be excluded from faith and church community.

We've been saying that there is tons of scriptural support that water baptism is for BELIEVERS who have made the conscious choice to repent and follow Jesus, and it is undeniable that a baby is not capable of understanding the Gospel and choosing to follow Jesus. Water baptism is a public symbolic expression of an inward change, and it's clearly a picture of going from death to life... In post #155 TIR posted a scripture that backs that up and I'm sure there are others.

 

[buttercup]

The more you talk the more I see the great gulf between Catholicism and Christianity.

Yes, I was thinking that earlier, and in fact I was even thinking that could be a topic for its own thread.

Here's the thing. I really don't want to offend anyone, and I don't like to see so much arguing and division.... but of course the reason Catholics and non-Catholic Christians debate so much on these threads is because it's simply true that there are some MAJOR differences....and truth matters. Getting it wrong, especially when it comes to important matters like salvation can have the worst possible consequences.

So I hate to say this because I know it will sound so offensive, and there are Catholic posters here who I really like, but as you just said, there's a huge gulf there that to me makes it basically two different religions.

The main topic that I think there's a huge difference on is salvation. But that's a big topic and I'm about to eat dinner soon so I don't want to get into that here and now.