celibacy and human nature

[OldLady]

Celibacy--or even behaving oneself in that regard--is a monstrous challenge.


Holy Sonnets: Batter my heart, three-person'd God
BY JOHN DONNE
Batter my heart, three-person'd God, for you
As yet but knock, breathe, shine, and seek to mend;
That I may rise and stand, o'erthrow me, and bend
Your force to break, blow, burn, and make me new.
I, like an usurp'd town to another due,
Labor to admit you, but oh, to no end;
Reason, your viceroy in me, me should defend,
But is captiv'd, and proves weak or untrue.
Yet dearly I love you, and would be lov'd fain,
But am betroth'd unto your enemy;
Divorce me, untie or break that knot again,
Take me to you, imprison me, for I,
Except you enthrall me, never shall be free,
Nor ever chaste, except you ravish me.

Same guy, presumably BEFORE becoming a minister. He LOVED sex. It was to him a spiritual coupling. You should read this one, TN--great pick up lines here.

Elegy XIX: To His Mistress Going to Bed
John Donne
Come, Madam, come, all rest my powers defy,
Until I labour, I in labour lie.
The foe oft-times having the foe in sight,
Is tir’d with standing though he never fight.
Off with that girdle, like heaven’s Zone glistering,
But a far fairer world encompassing.
Unpin that spangled breastplate which you wear,
That th’eyes of busy fools may be stopped there.
Unlace yourself, for that harmonious chime,
Tells me from you, that now it is bed time.
Off with that happy busk, which I envy,
That still can be, and still can stand so nigh.
Your gown going off, such beauteous state reveals,
As when from flowery meads th’hill’s shadow steals.
Off with that wiry Coronet and shew
The hairy Diadem which on you doth grow:
Now off with those shoes, and then safely tread
In this love’s hallow’d temple, this soft bed.
In such white robes, heaven’s Angels used to be
Received by men; Thou Angel bringst with thee
A heaven like Mahomet’s Paradise; and though
Ill spirits walk in white, we easily know,
By this these Angels from an evil sprite,
Those set our hairs, but these our flesh upright.
Licence my roving hands, and let them go,
Before, behind, between, above, below.
O my America! my new-found-land,
My kingdom, safeliest when with one man mann’d,
My Mine of precious stones, My Empirie,
How blest am I in this discovering thee!
To enter in these bonds, is to be free;
Then where my hand is set, my seal shall be.
Full nakedness! All joys are due to thee,
As souls unbodied, bodies uncloth’d must be,
To taste whole joys. Gems which you women use
Are like Atlanta’s balls, cast in men’s views,
That when a fool’s eye lighteth on a Gem,
His earthly soul may covet theirs, not them.
Like pictures, or like books’ gay coverings made
For lay-men, are all women thus array’d;
Themselves are mystic books, which only we
(Whom their imputed grace will dignify)
Must see reveal’d. Then since that I may know;
As liberally, as to a Midwife, shew
Thy self: cast all, yea, this white linen hence,
There is no penance due to innocence.
To teach thee, I am naked first; why then
What needst thou have more covering than a man?
Licence my roving hands, and let them go,
Before, behind, between, above, below.
O my America! my new-found-land,
My kingdom, safeliest when with one man mann’d,
My Mine of precious stones, My Empirie,
How blest am I in this discovering thee!

Everytime I think of me I touch myself..

What are you saying, Moon?

 

[SassyIrishLass]

Because Jesus was neutered at an early age by accident and never had carnal cravings...or ice cream for that matter..

Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene.

I have heard this, but I have never seen a parable supporting it..Do you have one?

I'm pretty sure that important tidbit of info would be Biblical

 

[TNHarley]

wtf?

we were discussing celibacy and human instincts. My opinion is that celibacy is unnatural and could be a cause for the catholic church having such a high perversion rate.

Actually the percentage of priests who are pedophiles is lower than the percentage in the overall general population.

It's always wise to research a subject before trying to debate it

frankly, we dont know how many cases they are. There is historical proof that priests have made children sign secrecy pledges about their abuse.
I have read 7% of all catholic priests were reported to be abusers. Whats the total for Americans? Less than 3% or so?
Maybe thats wrong, but that didnt have much to do with what i was looking for..

 

[Moonglow]

Because Jesus was neutered at an early age by accident and never had carnal cravings...or ice cream for that matter..

Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene.

I have heard this, but I have never seen a parable supporting it..Do you have one?

It's has much to do with the sang royal instead of the sang real..

 

[Moonglow]

Because Jesus was neutered at an early age by accident and never had carnal cravings...or ice cream for that matter..

Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene.

I have heard this, but I have never seen a parable supporting it..Do you have one?

I'm pretty sure that important tidbit of info would be Biblical

Not when creating the idyllic perfect being..

 

[TNHarley]

Because Jesus was neutered at an early age by accident and never had carnal cravings...or ice cream for that matter..

Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene.

I have heard this, but I have never seen a parable supporting it..Do you have one?

I'm pretty sure that important tidbit of info would be Biblical

There are billions of biblical documents in the Vatican that 99.99999% of the world population has no idea of its content.
The bible has been selectively chosen for millennia
It took a thousand years before they would even let peasants be able to read it on their own..

 

[SassyIrishLass]

wtf?

we were discussing celibacy and human instincts. My opinion is that celibacy is unnatural and could be a cause for the catholic church having such a high perversion rate.

Actually the percentage of priests who are pedophiles is lower than the percentage in the overall general population.

It's always wise to research a subject before trying to debate it

frankly, we dont know how many cases they are. There is historical proof that priests have made children sign secrecy pledges about their abuse.
I have read 7% of all catholic priests were reported to be abusers. Whats the total for Americans? Less than 3% or so?
Maybe thats wrong, but that didnt have much to do with what i was looking for..

A US Dept of Education study revealed a child is 100 more times likely to be sexually abused by an educator than a priest. Perhaps all this "outrage" at priests and the Church should be redirected at where the real problem lies.

Catholic priests and pedophilia is a dog whistle to people..ill informed people

 

[SassyIrishLass]

Because Jesus was neutered at an early age by accident and never had carnal cravings...or ice cream for that matter..

Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene.

I have heard this, but I have never seen a parable supporting it..Do you have one?

I'm pretty sure that important tidbit of info would be Biblical

There are billions of biblical documents in the Vatican that 99.99999% of the world population has no idea of its content.
The bible has been selectively chosen for millennia
It took a thousand years before they would even let peasants be able to read it on their own..

Jesus wasn't married...good gawd. Just stop

 

[Moonglow]

Celibacy--or even behaving oneself in that regard--is a monstrous challenge.


Holy Sonnets: Batter my heart, three-person'd God
BY JOHN DONNE
Batter my heart, three-person'd God, for you
As yet but knock, breathe, shine, and seek to mend;
That I may rise and stand, o'erthrow me, and bend
Your force to break, blow, burn, and make me new.
I, like an usurp'd town to another due,
Labor to admit you, but oh, to no end;
Reason, your viceroy in me, me should defend,
But is captiv'd, and proves weak or untrue.
Yet dearly I love you, and would be lov'd fain,
But am betroth'd unto your enemy;
Divorce me, untie or break that knot again,
Take me to you, imprison me, for I,
Except you enthrall me, never shall be free,
Nor ever chaste, except you ravish me.

Same guy, presumably BEFORE becoming a minister. He LOVED sex. It was to him a spiritual coupling. You should read this one, TN--great pick up lines here.

Elegy XIX: To His Mistress Going to Bed
John Donne
Come, Madam, come, all rest my powers defy,
Until I labour, I in labour lie.
The foe oft-times having the foe in sight,
Is tir’d with standing though he never fight.
Off with that girdle, like heaven’s Zone glistering,
But a far fairer world encompassing.
Unpin that spangled breastplate which you wear,
That th’eyes of busy fools may be stopped there.
Unlace yourself, for that harmonious chime,
Tells me from you, that now it is bed time.
Off with that happy busk, which I envy,
That still can be, and still can stand so nigh.
Your gown going off, such beauteous state reveals,
As when from flowery meads th’hill’s shadow steals.
Off with that wiry Coronet and shew
The hairy Diadem which on you doth grow:
Now off with those shoes, and then safely tread
In this love’s hallow’d temple, this soft bed.
In such white robes, heaven’s Angels used to be
Received by men; Thou Angel bringst with thee
A heaven like Mahomet’s Paradise; and though
Ill spirits walk in white, we easily know,
By this these Angels from an evil sprite,
Those set our hairs, but these our flesh upright.
Licence my roving hands, and let them go,
Before, behind, between, above, below.
O my America! my new-found-land,
My kingdom, safeliest when with one man mann’d,
My Mine of precious stones, My Empirie,
How blest am I in this discovering thee!
To enter in these bonds, is to be free;
Then where my hand is set, my seal shall be.
Full nakedness! All joys are due to thee,
As souls unbodied, bodies uncloth’d must be,
To taste whole joys. Gems which you women use
Are like Atlanta’s balls, cast in men’s views,
That when a fool’s eye lighteth on a Gem,
His earthly soul may covet theirs, not them.
Like pictures, or like books’ gay coverings made
For lay-men, are all women thus array’d;
Themselves are mystic books, which only we
(Whom their imputed grace will dignify)
Must see reveal’d. Then since that I may know;
As liberally, as to a Midwife, shew
Thy self: cast all, yea, this white linen hence,
There is no penance due to innocence.
To teach thee, I am naked first; why then
What needst thou have more covering than a man?
Licence my roving hands, and let them go,
Before, behind, between, above, below.
O my America! my new-found-land,
My kingdom, safeliest when with one man mann’d,
My Mine of precious stones, My Empirie,
How blest am I in this discovering thee!

Everytime I think of me I touch myself..

What are you saying, Moon?

Exemplifying the struggle of celibacy...Or is it celibacy only involves two or more people?

 

[OldLady]

Because Jesus was neutered at an early age by accident and never had carnal cravings...or ice cream for that matter..

Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene.

I have heard this, but I have never seen a parable supporting it..Do you have one?

She was very deliberately written out, so no. You will note that at no time, anywhere, did Jesus say he was celibate. Jewish scholars of the time period have said that what would be noteworthy was if Jesus had NOT been married. THAT would have been made a big deal of. It wasn't, because he wasn't celibate.

 

[OldLady]

Celibacy--or even behaving oneself in that regard--is a monstrous challenge.


Holy Sonnets: Batter my heart, three-person'd God
BY JOHN DONNE
Batter my heart, three-person'd God, for you
As yet but knock, breathe, shine, and seek to mend;
That I may rise and stand, o'erthrow me, and bend
Your force to break, blow, burn, and make me new.
I, like an usurp'd town to another due,
Labor to admit you, but oh, to no end;
Reason, your viceroy in me, me should defend,
But is captiv'd, and proves weak or untrue.
Yet dearly I love you, and would be lov'd fain,
But am betroth'd unto your enemy;
Divorce me, untie or break that knot again,
Take me to you, imprison me, for I,
Except you enthrall me, never shall be free,
Nor ever chaste, except you ravish me.

Same guy, presumably BEFORE becoming a minister. He LOVED sex. It was to him a spiritual coupling. You should read this one, TN--great pick up lines here.

Elegy XIX: To His Mistress Going to Bed
John Donne
Come, Madam, come, all rest my powers defy,
Until I labour, I in labour lie.
The foe oft-times having the foe in sight,
Is tir’d with standing though he never fight.
Off with that girdle, like heaven’s Zone glistering,
But a far fairer world encompassing.
Unpin that spangled breastplate which you wear,
That th’eyes of busy fools may be stopped there.
Unlace yourself, for that harmonious chime,
Tells me from you, that now it is bed time.
Off with that happy busk, which I envy,
That still can be, and still can stand so nigh.
Your gown going off, such beauteous state reveals,
As when from flowery meads th’hill’s shadow steals.
Off with that wiry Coronet and shew
The hairy Diadem which on you doth grow:
Now off with those shoes, and then safely tread
In this love’s hallow’d temple, this soft bed.
In such white robes, heaven’s Angels used to be
Received by men; Thou Angel bringst with thee
A heaven like Mahomet’s Paradise; and though
Ill spirits walk in white, we easily know,
By this these Angels from an evil sprite,
Those set our hairs, but these our flesh upright.
Licence my roving hands, and let them go,
Before, behind, between, above, below.
O my America! my new-found-land,
My kingdom, safeliest when with one man mann’d,
My Mine of precious stones, My Empirie,
How blest am I in this discovering thee!
To enter in these bonds, is to be free;
Then where my hand is set, my seal shall be.
Full nakedness! All joys are due to thee,
As souls unbodied, bodies uncloth’d must be,
To taste whole joys. Gems which you women use
Are like Atlanta’s balls, cast in men’s views,
That when a fool’s eye lighteth on a Gem,
His earthly soul may covet theirs, not them.
Like pictures, or like books’ gay coverings made
For lay-men, are all women thus array’d;
Themselves are mystic books, which only we
(Whom their imputed grace will dignify)
Must see reveal’d. Then since that I may know;
As liberally, as to a Midwife, shew
Thy self: cast all, yea, this white linen hence,
There is no penance due to innocence.
To teach thee, I am naked first; why then
What needst thou have more covering than a man?
Licence my roving hands, and let them go,
Before, behind, between, above, below.
O my America! my new-found-land,
My kingdom, safeliest when with one man mann’d,
My Mine of precious stones, My Empirie,
How blest am I in this discovering thee!

Everytime I think of me I touch myself..

What are you saying, Moon?

Exemplifying the struggle of celibacy...Or is it celibacy only involve two or more people?

Guess you'll have to ask a priest.

 

[TNHarley]

Because Jesus was neutered at an early age by accident and never had carnal cravings...or ice cream for that matter..

Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene.

I have heard this, but I have never seen a parable supporting it..Do you have one?

I'm pretty sure that important tidbit of info would be Biblical

There are billions of biblical documents in the Vatican that 99.99999% of the world population has no idea of its content.
The bible has been selectively chosen for millennia
It took a thousand years before they would even let peasants be able to read it on their own..

Jesus wasn't married...good gawd. Just stop

Hey, i was just stating the facts.
You dont know if he was or not. You just BELIEVE

 

[TNHarley]

wtf?

we were discussing celibacy and human instincts. My opinion is that celibacy is unnatural and could be a cause for the catholic church having such a high perversion rate.

Actually the percentage of priests who are pedophiles is lower than the percentage in the overall general population.

It's always wise to research a subject before trying to debate it

frankly, we dont know how many cases they are. There is historical proof that priests have made children sign secrecy pledges about their abuse.
I have read 7% of all catholic priests were reported to be abusers. Whats the total for Americans? Less than 3% or so?
Maybe thats wrong, but that didnt have much to do with what i was looking for..

A US Dept of Education study revealed a child is 100 more times likely to be sexually abused by an educator than a priest. Perhaps all this "outrage" at priests and the Church should be redirected at where the real problem lies.

Catholic priests and pedophilia is a dog whistle to people..ill informed people

So my percentages mean nothing to you?
Do you have any links?

 

[Moonglow]

Celibacy--or even behaving oneself in that regard--is a monstrous challenge.


Holy Sonnets: Batter my heart, three-person'd God
BY JOHN DONNE
Batter my heart, three-person'd God, for you
As yet but knock, breathe, shine, and seek to mend;
That I may rise and stand, o'erthrow me, and bend
Your force to break, blow, burn, and make me new.
I, like an usurp'd town to another due,
Labor to admit you, but oh, to no end;
Reason, your viceroy in me, me should defend,
But is captiv'd, and proves weak or untrue.
Yet dearly I love you, and would be lov'd fain,
But am betroth'd unto your enemy;
Divorce me, untie or break that knot again,
Take me to you, imprison me, for I,
Except you enthrall me, never shall be free,
Nor ever chaste, except you ravish me.

Same guy, presumably BEFORE becoming a minister. He LOVED sex. It was to him a spiritual coupling. You should read this one, TN--great pick up lines here.

Elegy XIX: To His Mistress Going to Bed
John Donne
Come, Madam, come, all rest my powers defy,
Until I labour, I in labour lie.
The foe oft-times having the foe in sight,
Is tir’d with standing though he never fight.
Off with that girdle, like heaven’s Zone glistering,
But a far fairer world encompassing.
Unpin that spangled breastplate which you wear,
That th’eyes of busy fools may be stopped there.
Unlace yourself, for that harmonious chime,
Tells me from you, that now it is bed time.
Off with that happy busk, which I envy,
That still can be, and still can stand so nigh.
Your gown going off, such beauteous state reveals,
As when from flowery meads th’hill’s shadow steals.
Off with that wiry Coronet and shew
The hairy Diadem which on you doth grow:
Now off with those shoes, and then safely tread
In this love’s hallow’d temple, this soft bed.
In such white robes, heaven’s Angels used to be
Received by men; Thou Angel bringst with thee
A heaven like Mahomet’s Paradise; and though
Ill spirits walk in white, we easily know,
By this these Angels from an evil sprite,
Those set our hairs, but these our flesh upright.
Licence my roving hands, and let them go,
Before, behind, between, above, below.
O my America! my new-found-land,
My kingdom, safeliest when with one man mann’d,
My Mine of precious stones, My Empirie,
How blest am I in this discovering thee!
To enter in these bonds, is to be free;
Then where my hand is set, my seal shall be.
Full nakedness! All joys are due to thee,
As souls unbodied, bodies uncloth’d must be,
To taste whole joys. Gems which you women use
Are like Atlanta’s balls, cast in men’s views,
That when a fool’s eye lighteth on a Gem,
His earthly soul may covet theirs, not them.
Like pictures, or like books’ gay coverings made
For lay-men, are all women thus array’d;
Themselves are mystic books, which only we
(Whom their imputed grace will dignify)
Must see reveal’d. Then since that I may know;
As liberally, as to a Midwife, shew
Thy self: cast all, yea, this white linen hence,
There is no penance due to innocence.
To teach thee, I am naked first; why then
What needst thou have more covering than a man?
Licence my roving hands, and let them go,
Before, behind, between, above, below.
O my America! my new-found-land,
My kingdom, safeliest when with one man mann’d,
My Mine of precious stones, My Empirie,
How blest am I in this discovering thee!

Everytime I think of me I touch myself..

What are you saying, Moon?

Exemplifying the struggle of celibacy...Or is it celibacy only involve two or more people?

Guess you'll have to ask a priest.

Hookers give you a more direct reply..

 

[DGS49]

MISSING THE POINT:

The celibacy obligation of Roman Catholic clergy results in a "perverse" (play on words fully intended) incentive to homosexuals and pedophiles, to wit, what better situation to enter than one where there is no contact with women and lots of contact with other men and children? It is a pervert's "Disneyland"!

No one should have been the least bit surprised when the number of homosexual and predator priests came to light; it was as predictable as the sun rising in the East.

Morally, celibacy is an ubiquitous obligation among serious Catholics and Bible-believing people. Think about all the categories of people who are prohibited from "normal" sexual congress:

• Single adults,
• Homosexuals,
• Divorced adults,
• People with spouses who are "frigid,"
• People who have spouses who are so sexually unattractive they do not desire sex with them,
• People with spouses who are medically unavailable for sex,
• People who are themselves unable to have sex.

Far more than half the adult male population has a moral obligation to be celibate. For this group - and it pains me to say this - Internet Porn is a "God-send."

How perverse is that?

 

[Eaglewings]

Here we go Blackrook OldLady
I have not found a statistical link between celibacy and pedophilia and/or homosexuality. However, i found this
http://humanismbyjoe.co/clerical-celibacy-and-pedophilic-priests/
You need to read that article. It lists many different doctors and knowledgeable people.
Richard Sipe - Wikipedia
Jay R. Feierman, M.D. Resume
David Finkelhor - Wikipedia
Crimes Against Children Research Center
They basically are stating what i said. I guess it would be pretty hard to get a "statistical link" for human nature and perversion. Probably have to follow someone from day one like "the truman show" lol
IDK i guess its more complicated than i thought. Im not saying you guys were right, though.
I think i found enough information to keep my current opinion on the matter. I mean, the people spent their life studying nature and the human mind. Hopefully, this is enough to at least make you think about it.
Fascinating IMO. Not just from a religious or sexual standpoint, but about nature in general. Suppression of natural instinct isnt good.
And here is a question for the Catholics, why does your religion require celibacy when your God doesnt require it? Why do you require it, when your God made men to naturally crave sex and intimacy?

Hey, I am an addiction counselor and can explain it to you scientifically by the way our brain works..

This strong desire is deep into our subconscious ( the part of the brain that we Can Not control )
this is all species as we see to multiply..

Other things like addiction happen in the sub-conscious when the brain has changed itself enough to accommodate the drug..

Sex, drugs give off feel good hormones called dopamine from the same area of the brain.

With drug addiction recovery and sex addiction recovery total abstinence is required to calm down the bodies strong need and desire to give it more sex/ drugs..

The way to achieve this is with keep the conscious part of the brain ( part that we can control) into recovery mode 24/7 ( This is why AA or S Anonymous works for many learning tools to calm the brain down when a desire comes up )

Many priest stay in that mode of putting God first ,and stay celibate ,many as we know take their focus off of God and like a drug addict who takes their focus off of recovery will relapse so will a priest have sex..

All in the same part of the brain..Called The Reward Center.

 

[Moonglow]

MISSING THE POINT:

The celibacy obligation of Roman Catholic clergy results in a "perverse" (play on words fully intended) incentive to homosexuals and pedophiles, to wit, what better situation to enter than one where there is no contact with women and lots of contact with other men and children? It is a pervert's "Disneyland"!

No one should have been the least bit surprised when the number of homosexual and predator priests came to light; it was as predictable as the sun rising in the East.

Morally, celibacy is an ubiquitous obligation among serious Catholics and Bible-believing people. Think about all the categories of people who are prohibited from "normal" sexual congress:

• Single adults,
• Homosexuals,
• Divorced adults,
• People with spouses who are "frigid,"
• People who have spouses who are so sexually unattractive they do not desire sex with them,
• People with spouses who are medically unavailable for sex,
• People who are themselves unable to have sex.

Far more than half the adult male population has a moral obligation to be celibate. For this group - and it pains me to say this - Internet Porn is a "God-send."

How perverse is that?

Depends if you're watching Japanese lesbian bondage vomit porn or not...

 

[TNHarley]

MISSING THE POINT:

The celibacy obligation of Roman Catholic clergy results in a "perverse" (play on words fully intended) incentive to homosexuals and pedophiles, to wit, what better situation to enter than one where there is no contact with women and lots of contact with other men and children? It is a pervert's "Disneyland"!

No one should have been the least bit surprised when the number of homosexual and predator priests came to light; it was as predictable as the sun rising in the East.

Morally, celibacy is an ubiquitous obligation among serious Catholics and Bible-believing people. Think about all the categories of people who are prohibited from "normal" sexual congress:

• Single adults,
• Homosexuals,
• Divorced adults,
• People with spouses who are "frigid,"
• People who have spouses who are so sexually unattractive they do not desire sex with them,
• People with spouses who are medically unavailable for sex,
• People who are themselves unable to have sex.

Far more than half the adult male population has a moral obligation to be celibate. For this group - and it pains me to say this - Internet Porn is a "God-send."

How perverse is that?

What about priests that go in the church as children?
You realize they even wrote about this in the 1200s? Difference is, back then they wanted the priests ex-communicated. Instead of the practice today of hiding it and moving them to different perishes.

 

[OldLady]

Well, I read your article, TN, and I think where it might stray from factual is where it conflates (or the reader does) homosexuality with pedophilia. I don't think no matter how "deprived" a person is, they will ever develop sexual attraction to a child. As Moon pointed out, there's always masturbation.

I agree that men who do not have a sexual attraction to women will be more likely to enter the priesthood, because that celibacy thing is not so much of an issue. At least not open celibacy. Homosexuality and pedophilia are still "secret" pleasures, for the most part, or at least homosexuality was until very recently.

 

[Eaglewings]

Well, I read your article, TN, and I think where it might stray from factual is where it conflates (or the reader does) homosexuality with pedophilia. I don't think no matter how "deprived" a person is, they will ever develop sexual attraction to a child. As Moon pointed out, there's always masturbation.

I agree that men who do not have a sexual attraction to women will be more likely to enter the priesthood, because that celibacy thing is not so much of an issue. At least not open celibacy. Homosexuality and pedophilia are still "secret" pleasures, for the most part, or at least homosexuality was until very recently.

Good point...