Christian Bake Shop Must Serve Gakes

[manifold]

Good on ya.


Many on these boards never reach that level of understanding. Opinions about what a law should be verses discussion of reality and what the law is. They get is rooted in their head that their opinion of what the law should be is the same as reality and that can be a problem.



>>>>

Whether one agrees or not, it's pretty obvious to any honest person with a brain that the law is on the side of the plaintiffs in this case. To me that's not at issue.

The issue for me is whether the plaintiffs did the right thing by taking it to court.

IMO, in their rush to make an example of the bakery owner, all they did was paint themselves as a shining example of intolerance and complete cuntishness.

Furthermore, this doesn't accomplish anything whatsoever with respect of the struggle of gays to gain acceptance, except perhaps to set them back a few paces. People who want to discriminate against them will simply be more creative about it.

So these guys want to take this baker to court, put him through hell and than force him to cook for them?

All in the name of tolerance and progress.

 

[High_Gravity]

Whether one agrees or not, it's pretty obvious to any honest person with a brain that the law is on the side of the plaintiffs in this case. To me that's not at issue.

The issue for me is whether the plaintiffs did the right thing by taking it to court.

IMO, in their rush to make an example of the bakery owner, all they did was paint themselves as a shining example of intolerance and complete cuntishness.

Furthermore, this doesn't accomplish anything whatsoever with respect of the struggle of gays to gain acceptance, except perhaps to set them back a few paces. People who want to discriminate against them will simply be more creative about it.

So these guys want to take this baker to court, put him through hell and than force him to cook for them?

All in the name of tolerance and progress.

Is the feeling that you get from getting the better of someone worth the cost of having someone in the kitchen who is furious at you preparing for your food?

 

[R.C. Christian]

Fags should get their own shops. They could sell cream cakes, chocolate dragons, poop shoots, and fudge packers.

 

[High_Gravity]

Fags should get their own shops. .

That made me laugh for some reason.

 

[Nosmo King]

True. However, as a man of faith myself I could not in good conscience do such a thing. I would refuse to bake the cake, and yes would even go to jail to protect my religious freedoms.

That’s ridiculous.

If one is unwilling to obey public accommodations laws, he simply wouldn’t open a business in the first place.



As an aside, your animus toward same-sex couples is both un-Constitutional and un-Christian.

Well, it is in conflict with my faith, and my faith supersedes all else, that is why I would go to jail instead of baking the cake. I have a right to not acknowledge gay marriage or homosexuality since I will not under any circumstance renounce my faith.

Let me ask you a question. Do you think it would be right for a Jewish owned butcher shop to be forced by law to sell baby back pork ribs? I don't. The same applies to the bakery in question here. He sells standard cakes to anyone, with no discrimination due to sexual orientation, however he will not make a custom "gay" cake as doing so would be in conflict with his faith.

You're asking whether or not a merchant should stock goods he does not want to stock. The question is: should a baker who daily makes wedding, birthday, theme and holiday cakes should make a cake for a Gay wedding. The flour, sugar, butter and eggs are there in his shop. All he has to do is comply with the order of his customers, which, again, he does on a daily basis.

The sticking point is should the baker be allowed to be an asshole bigot or not. My answer is, unless he is absolutely in love with each cause celebrated by goods ordered from his bakery, he should bake the cake and make the sale. If he refuses, he is showing an attitude that the customer is not always right. He will get a reputation of being a dis-honest broker, along with being an asshole hater.

Many service businesses like bakeries thrive on word of mouth advertising and goodwill. Refusal of service would erode that goodwill. Get three people to praise your business and it will thrive. Have one dis-satisfied customer bad mouthing your business and all the advertising in the world won't bring it back.

 

[Jughead]

The sticking point is should the baker be allowed to be an asshole bigot or not. My answer is, unless he is absolutely in love with each cause celebrated by goods ordered from his bakery, he should bake the cake and make the sale. If he refuses, he is showing an attitude that the customer is not always right. He will get a reputation of being a dis-honest broker, along with being an asshole hater.

To be quite honest, if he were not to bake the cake, he would get a reputation that he will not renounce his faith for any reason.

This is really sad. The guy is forced to choose between his faith and his livelihood. In my opinion, there is no contest, my faith always comes first.

Nicolle Martin, an attorney for Masterpiece Cakeshop, said the judge's order puts Phillips in an impossible position of going against his Christian faith.

'He can't violate his conscience in order to collect a paycheck,' she said. 'If Jack can't make wedding cakes, he can't continue to support his family. And in order to make wedding cakes, Jack must violate his belief system. That is a reprehensible choice. It is antithetical to everything America stands for.'

 

[NLT]

Hate is a sin, Tank. There's no get out of jail free card on that one.

Your a liberal progresvie BD, you dont believe in sin, remember?

 

[Nosmo King]

The sticking point is should the baker be allowed to be an asshole bigot or not. My answer is, unless he is absolutely in love with each cause celebrated by goods ordered from his bakery, he should bake the cake and make the sale. If he refuses, he is showing an attitude that the customer is not always right. He will get a reputation of being a dis-honest broker, along with being an asshole hater.

To be quite honest, if he were not to bake the cake, he would get a reputation that he will not renounce his faith for any reason.

This is really sad. The guy is forced to choose between his faith and his livelihood. In my opinion, there is no contest, my faith always comes first.

Nicolle Martin, an attorney for Masterpiece Cakeshop, said the judge's order puts Phillips in an impossible position of going against his Christian faith.

'He can't violate his conscience in order to collect a paycheck,' she said. 'If Jack can't make wedding cakes, he can't continue to support his family. And in order to make wedding cakes, Jack must violate his belief system. That is a reprehensible choice. It is antithetical to everything America stands for.'

I'm sorry but it's not much of a faith if it requires hatred and judgment. Christianity is based on loving one's neighbor as he himself would wish to be loved. If suspicion, judgment and exclusivity is involved, that faith does not in any way represent the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[Jughead]

The sticking point is should the baker be allowed to be an asshole bigot or not. My answer is, unless he is absolutely in love with each cause celebrated by goods ordered from his bakery, he should bake the cake and make the sale. If he refuses, he is showing an attitude that the customer is not always right. He will get a reputation of being a dis-honest broker, along with being an asshole hater.

To be quite honest, if he were not to bake the cake, he would get a reputation that he will not renounce his faith for any reason.

This is really sad. The guy is forced to choose between his faith and his livelihood. In my opinion, there is no contest, my faith always comes first.

Nicolle Martin, an attorney for Masterpiece Cakeshop, said the judge's order puts Phillips in an impossible position of going against his Christian faith.

'He can't violate his conscience in order to collect a paycheck,' she said. 'If Jack can't make wedding cakes, he can't continue to support his family. And in order to make wedding cakes, Jack must violate his belief system. That is a reprehensible choice. It is antithetical to everything America stands for.'

I'm sorry but it's not much of a faith if it requires hatred and judgment. Christianity is based on loving one's neighbor as he himself would wish to be loved. If suspicion, judgment and exclusivity is involved, that faith does not in any way represent the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.

Most of us Christians don't hate gay couples, we just don't acknowledge or support their lifestyle. According to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, homosexuality is a sin. Therefore if I engage in any activity that would support or acknowledge homosexuality, I would be in direct conflict with my faith, and may as well renounce it. If someone tells me otherwise, they would have to prove to me that God will look the other way and forgive me if I don't respect his teachings. Read below.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Or do you not know that the unrighteous[a] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

what happened to the 'right to refuse service' .......am i the only one old enough to remember those signs? i think it went....'we reserve the right to refuse service'

You can still refused service.

However there are certain reasons under which you cannot refuse service. Depending on Federal Law and State Law (yours may very), if you are refusing service based on race, ethnicity, religion, age, gender, sexual orientation, martial status, veteran status, etc. Then those are illegal reasons under the law.

So basically the sign means nothing. You can refuse service because you own a restaurant and have a dress code, say Jacket & Tie for men, and a prospective patron doesn't meet the code. If you post the requirements and then consistently enforce them - not a problem. However you cannot refuse to services a patron because they are Jewish.

You can't "reserve a right" that is against the law.

Just to be funny - I could put a sign in my car window that says "I reserve the right to drive 80 in a 50 zone." Doesn't mean the Judge will buy it as a defense for a speeding ticket.

>>>>

Would you please stop justifying public accommodation using circular arguments? Either fucking argue against them, or argue for them, stop pretending that you are better than the rest of us asswipes because you refuse to actually stake out a real position and defend it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

That’s ridiculous.

If one is unwilling to obey public accommodations laws, he simply wouldn’t open a business in the first place.



As an aside, your animus toward same-sex couples is both un-Constitutional and un-Christian.

Well, it is in conflict with my faith, and my faith supersedes all else, that is why I would go to jail instead of baking the cake. I have a right to not acknowledge gay marriage or homosexuality since I will not under any circumstance renounce my faith.

Let me ask you a question. Do you think it would be right for a Jewish owned butcher shop to be forced by law to sell baby back pork ribs? I don't. The same applies to the bakery in question here. He sells standard cakes to anyone, with no discrimination due to sexual orientation, however he will not make a custom "gay" cake as doing so would be in conflict with his faith.

Sorry JH, that is not the same situation and a poor analogy.

Businesses are not required to provides goods and services they don't routinely supply. If a Jewish deli does not stock and sell baby back pork ribs, they are not required to begin stocking and selling them. However if the Jewish deli DOES stock and sell baby back pork ribs, then selling them to some customers but not others based on race, ethnicity, religion, gender, or sexual orientation (under Colorado law) would be illegal. No one is "forcing" the deli owner to stock anything, what is the required is non-discrimination (based on certain criteria) concerning the sale of an already stocked item or service provided.

In this case the bakery advertised and routinely supplied "wedding cakes", as such - under Colorado law - they could not refuse sale based on race, ethnicity, religion, gender, or sexual orientation.



>>>>

Funny, up until this year no business in this country routinely sold maternity coverage to 50 year old men. My guess is that, if any had offered it, they would have been mocked by people like you. You know the ones I mean, the people who are better than everyone else because they never let emotions or logic affect their ability to use circular arguments to justify other people's positions. Want to try and use your circular arguments to prove to me that you can't require a Jewish Deli to sell pork products because no law actually does it, yet?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Well, I would then advertise "standard wedding cakes", no customization possible. As customized cakes are not available to the general public, then they would also not be available to the gay couple.

Anyone making wedding cakes who refuses to provide customized cakes, will not be in business for long. Custom cakes is the only way you can make money in the wedding business.

Being gay isn't a choice. I didn't wake up one day and make a decision to date men and be a heterosexual person. It's who I am. Being gay is the same. God made some people gay and God doesn't make mistakes.

Jesus was very clear that you have no right to judge others and treat them badly because they are sinners. If you believe being gay is a sin, you should not refuse any kindness to a gay person.

Imagine how God will feel towards you for your treatment of His children.

When did you wake up and decide you were going to vote for whichever party you vote for?

The fact that you do not remember making a choice is not proof you did not make that choice, all it actually proves is that your memory isn't 100% reliable. Funny thing, no one has a perfect memory. Even people with eidetic memories have false memories, and can overlay a decision process with a belief that they never made that decision.

You have absolutely no evidence that sexual preference is not a choice. On the other hand, I can provide you with scientific evidence that free will exists, and that sexual preference is not a direct result of either genetics or environment. That is not proof it is a choice, but it is a pretty solid, and rational, conclusion based on real evidence.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Being gay isn't a choice. I didn't wake up one day and make a decision to date men and be a heterosexual person. It's who I am. Being gay is the same. God made some people gay and God doesn't make mistakes.

Jesus was very clear that you have no right to judge others and treat them badly because they are sinners. If you believe being gay is a sin, you should not refuse any kindness to a gay person.

Imagine how God will feel towards you for your treatment of His children.

God calls homos an abomination in the Bible and says they are destined for hell.

So I doubt he thinks of you as one of his "children".

And yes, being a faggot is a choice, a pathetic choice, but still a choice. ...

o bullshit sunni and you know it...why the hell are you quoting the bible when you are muslim? well?

bible says a lot of stupid shit now doesnt it?

Two points, Muslims are taught to revere the Bible, and the Quran actually makes what the Bible says about homosexuality seem pretty tame.

This sin, the impact of which makes one’s skin crawl, which words cannot describe, is evidence of perverted instincts, total collapse of shame and honor, and extreme filthiness of character and soul… The heavens, the Earth and the mountains tremble from the impact of this sin. The angels shudder as they anticipate the punishment of Allah to descend upon the people who commit this indescribable sin.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

“If you don't stick to your values when they're being tested, they're not values: they're hobbies.”


― Jon Stewart

Which is exactly why the baker should not back down, and everyone should be defending him, not the fascists who are attacking his values.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I'm saying its a fucked up, deceitful, and and faulty analogy. If you won't do your professional duty based on a random client, you should be fired, period.

Fired??? He owns the bakery for heaven's sake. Should he fire himself?

All this fellow was doing was denying a customer a certain product (gay cake) because he cannot prepare that specific product for any customer as it is in conflict with his faith. He would gladly serve the customer, and prepare any standard item that is available to anyone else.

They didn't order a "gay cake" they ordered a "wedding cake" which is specifically a product the bakery lists for sale.

Since they provide "wedding cakes" that is a standard item this is available to everyone.


>>>>

They ordered a custom cake. By definition, custom cakes are not available to everyone.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Upon further research of this case, I must concede. Mr. Phillips, the owner, refused to take the order before there was any discussion about the design of the cake.

I don't agree with the current law, but it is the law.

Good on ya.


Many on these boards never reach that level of understanding. Opinions about what a law should be verses discussion of reality and what the law is. They get is rooted in their head that their opinion of what the law should be is the same as reality and that can be a problem.



>>>>

If the law is wrong, then the law is wrong. Period.

Unlike Obama, that means something when I say it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Remember the bakery that wouldn't bake a cake for little Hitler? The court said that was okay. What is the difference? It's just the Bakery putting their own values in their shop. If they didn't want do a cake for a gay marriage that should be their right as well.

The difference is that refusing to bake a Hitler cake has to do with Nazi's. Nazi's are not covered under Colorado's Public Accommodation laws.


>>>>

It was a birthday cake for a kid named Hitler.

Want to try and blather about kids not being a protected class, or do you just want to admit you are arguing in circles because you can't walk a fucking straight line?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

That’s ridiculous.

If one is unwilling to obey public accommodations laws, he simply wouldn’t open a business in the first place.



As an aside, your animus toward same-sex couples is both un-Constitutional and un-Christian.

Well, it is in conflict with my faith, and my faith supersedes all else, that is why I would go to jail instead of baking the cake. I have a right to not acknowledge gay marriage or homosexuality since I will not under any circumstance renounce my faith.

Let me ask you a question. Do you think it would be right for a Jewish owned butcher shop to be forced by law to sell baby back pork ribs? I don't. The same applies to the bakery in question here. He sells standard cakes to anyone, with no discrimination due to sexual orientation, however he will not make a custom "gay" cake as doing so would be in conflict with his faith.

You're asking whether or not a merchant should stock goods he does not want to stock. The question is: should a baker who daily makes wedding, birthday, theme and holiday cakes should make a cake for a Gay wedding. The flour, sugar, butter and eggs are there in his shop. All he has to do is comply with the order of his customers, which, again, he does on a daily basis.

The sticking point is should the baker be allowed to be an asshole bigot or not. My answer is, unless he is absolutely in love with each cause celebrated by goods ordered from his bakery, he should bake the cake and make the sale. If he refuses, he is showing an attitude that the customer is not always right. He will get a reputation of being a dis-honest broker, along with being an asshole hater.

Many service businesses like bakeries thrive on word of mouth advertising and goodwill. Refusal of service would erode that goodwill. Get three people to praise your business and it will thrive. Have one dis-satisfied customer bad mouthing your business and all the advertising in the world won't bring it back.

Does that mean you support the right of pharmacies not to stock Plan B?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The sticking point is should the baker be allowed to be an asshole bigot or not. My answer is, unless he is absolutely in love with each cause celebrated by goods ordered from his bakery, he should bake the cake and make the sale. If he refuses, he is showing an attitude that the customer is not always right. He will get a reputation of being a dis-honest broker, along with being an asshole hater.

To be quite honest, if he were not to bake the cake, he would get a reputation that he will not renounce his faith for any reason.

This is really sad. The guy is forced to choose between his faith and his livelihood. In my opinion, there is no contest, my faith always comes first.

Nicolle Martin, an attorney for Masterpiece Cakeshop, said the judge's order puts Phillips in an impossible position of going against his Christian faith.

'He can't violate his conscience in order to collect a paycheck,' she said. 'If Jack can't make wedding cakes, he can't continue to support his family. And in order to make wedding cakes, Jack must violate his belief system. That is a reprehensible choice. It is antithetical to everything America stands for.'

I'm sorry but it's not much of a faith if it requires hatred and judgment. Christianity is based on loving one's neighbor as he himself would wish to be loved. If suspicion, judgment and exclusivity is involved, that faith does not in any way represent the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.

Please stop pretending you understand something you never paid attention to, I really don't want to bitch slap you for being a complete ignoramus.

By the way, trying to use the Bible to justify your politics generally gets a neg, even if I agree with the politics. I will give you a pass this time because you, obviously, never read it, but don't let it happen again.

 

[Camp]

Folks just are having trouble accepting that in the eyes of the law, as determined by legislation and courts have decided and determined that sexual orientation in regards to discrimination holds the same status as race, color, ethnicity, national origin, and religion. How one feels about any one of those groups is irrelevent. The law of the land says those groups can not be discriminated against. All of those groups spent time and resources to follow the process used in a democracy to change laws. No one is entitled to skip the process because they are somehow special. If people don't like the law they have the means available to follow the process and change the law. Until they do, they are required to follow the laws of the land just like everyone else.