Christian friends of gays and lesbians

[Immanuel]

I haven't taken offense. I don't relate to the sin concept.

Do Buddhists believe in sin at all? Isn't "sin" a foreign concept to Buddhists? Or should I ask this in the "Ask a Buddhist" thread?

If you do not believe in sin at all, then why should anyone assume that you do believe that homosexuality is a sin?

Immie

Buddhists have fourteen precepts we follow that guide our conduct. Here is the one on sexuality: Aware of the suffering caused by sexual misconduct, I vow to cultivate my responsibility and learn ways to protect the safety and integrity of individuals, couples, families and society. I am determined not to engage in sexual relations without love and long-term commitment. To preserve the happiness of myself and others, I am determined to respect my commitments and the commitments of others. I will do everything in my power to protect children from sexual abuse and to protect families from being broken by sexual misconduct.

We don't have a concept of sin. We talk about karma.

Hmm, 14 Precepts! We have Ten Commandments. You have fourteen... sounds like your faith is tougher than my own.

For those who are interested...

http://viewonbuddhism.org/resources/14_precepts.html

Just read the "Do Nots" of those 14 Precepts!! You know what, you should read the Ten Commandments. I think you will find many of those commandments within your precepts.

Immie

 

[hortysir]

sodomy....

Chapter and verse of where this is a sin?

You asked, I answered. You don't like my answer, look it up yourself. I really don't want to right now.

That is because you are wrong.
God gave us 10 commandments.
Jesus narrowed them down to 2.
Sodomy isn't among either.
You can quote Peter or Paul in their letters to Corinth or the Galatians all you want, but they are disciples just as any other good Christians are.
And, as such, we don't get to decide what is or is not a sin.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Do Buddhists believe in sin at all? Isn't "sin" a foreign concept to Buddhists? Or should I ask this in the "Ask a Buddhist" thread?

If you do not believe in sin at all, then why should anyone assume that you do believe that homosexuality is a sin?

Immie

Buddhists have fourteen precepts we follow that guide our conduct. Here is the one on sexuality: Aware of the suffering caused by sexual misconduct, I vow to cultivate my responsibility and learn ways to protect the safety and integrity of individuals, couples, families and society. I am determined not to engage in sexual relations without love and long-term commitment. To preserve the happiness of myself and others, I am determined to respect my commitments and the commitments of others. I will do everything in my power to protect children from sexual abuse and to protect families from being broken by sexual misconduct.

We don't have a concept of sin. We talk about karma.

Hmm, 14 Precepts! We have Ten Commandments. You have fourteen... sounds like your faith is tougher than my own.

Immie

I think we're all challenged to meet our spiritual committments every day. In a way, I can understand what you mean about us all being 'sinners'.

We have these rules of ethical conduct to follow and we have a daily struggle to keep them, often failing.

I'm only speaking for myself. I fail daily, hourly even.

 

[Immanuel]

A homosexual can be as close to God as the man that preaches from the balcony overlooking St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican.

Immie

Furthermore, Christians aren't supposed to be making this judgment (e.g. the relationship of another person with god, and whether it is adequate).

That's supposed to be for god only to judge. That's my understanding of it.

I don't believe I was judging anyone. I was simply stating that all sinners are alike and can be as close to God as the most revered Christians even those who are thought of as being "sinful".

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Buddhists have fourteen precepts we follow that guide our conduct. Here is the one on sexuality: Aware of the suffering caused by sexual misconduct, I vow to cultivate my responsibility and learn ways to protect the safety and integrity of individuals, couples, families and society. I am determined not to engage in sexual relations without love and long-term commitment. To preserve the happiness of myself and others, I am determined to respect my commitments and the commitments of others. I will do everything in my power to protect children from sexual abuse and to protect families from being broken by sexual misconduct.

We don't have a concept of sin. We talk about karma.

Hmm, 14 Precepts! We have Ten Commandments. You have fourteen... sounds like your faith is tougher than my own.

Immie

I think we're all challenged to meet our spiritual committments every day. In a way, I can understand what you mean about us all being 'sinners'.

We have these rules of ethical conduct to follow and we have a daily struggle to keep them, often failing.

I'm only speaking for myself. I fail daily, hourly even.

And that is all that many Christians are saying when they talk about sin even the sin of homosexuality.

All "sins" boil down to two commandments Love God and Love your neighbor.

Mark 12

28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."

32"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

Your precepts fit into this by the way.

Immie

 

[CurveLight]

Buddhists have fourteen precepts we follow that guide our conduct. Here is the one on sexuality: Aware of the suffering caused by sexual misconduct, I vow to cultivate my responsibility and learn ways to protect the safety and integrity of individuals, couples, families and society. I am determined not to engage in sexual relations without love and long-term commitment. To preserve the happiness of myself and others, I am determined to respect my commitments and the commitments of others. I will do everything in my power to protect children from sexual abuse and to protect families from being broken by sexual misconduct.

We don't have a concept of sin. We talk about karma.

Hmm, 14 Precepts! We have Ten Commandments. You have fourteen... sounds like your faith is tougher than my own.

Immie

I think we're all challenged to meet our spiritual committments every day. In a way, I can understand what you mean about us all being 'sinners'.

We have these rules of ethical conduct to follow and we have a daily struggle to keep them, often failing.

I'm only speaking for myself. I fail daily, hourly even.

The essence of sin is imperfection which is heavily laden in buddhism. To say the concept of sin does not exist in buddhism is a bit odd considering when the decorations are stripped, the naked reality of spinning in clumsy human fingers is unavoidable. The suggested resolutions are different in processes and dogmatically irreconcilable but both are seeking to disabuse the imperfections that are the source and cycle of suffering.

 

[Steerpike]

I don't believe I was judging anyone. I was simply stating that all sinners are alike and can be as close to God as the most revered Christians even those who are thought of as being "sinful".

Immie

I don't believe you were either. I was adding an addendum to your comments

 

[Sky Dancer]

Christians think homosexuality is wrong, immoral and sinful. That doesn't seem real friendly to me.

Once again bashing Christians. For one Christians do not HATE Gays, they disapprove of the life style. The bible makes it a sin to lie with someone of your own sex.

Except for fringe groups you won't find many gay bashers in a church. They will rightfully disapprove of your open sexual choices but other then that you can find many Christians that have no problem with Gay friends. One can disagree with a friends choices and still remain their friend.

I have always been friendly to any Gays I knew. I tried unsuccessfully at a job I had to get a card game going once a week with a gay co worker. The other guys were all against it. Of course they couldn't explain why.

That is the attitude you are most likely to encounter. A general uneasy feeling to association. Not open animosity or name calling or acts of any kind. The gay co worker was just fine at work no one bothered him at all they just wouldn't associate with him outside work.

Christians think homosexuality is a sin. Buddhists don't. We have the same conduct precepts as a heterosexual.

I salute you for being friendly toward gays and trying to include the coworker who was shunned.

 

[CurveLight]

A homosexual can be as close to God as the man that preaches from the balcony overlooking St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican.

Immie

Furthermore, Christians aren't supposed to be making this judgment (e.g. the relationship of another person with god, and whether it is adequate).

That's supposed to be for god only to judge. That's my understanding of it.

I don't believe I was judging anyone. I was simply stating that all sinners are alike and can be as close to God as the most revered Christians even those who are thought of as being "sinful".

Immie

In Ivory Tower Theory all sinners are alike but we all know mainstream Christianity has taken it upon itself to classify homosexuals into a Special Sin category. Western Empires are guilty of the actual crimes Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for so it is not a mere coincidence the myth of homosexuality as the main cause has taken root.

 

[CurveLight]

Christians think homosexuality is wrong, immoral and sinful. That doesn't seem real friendly to me.

Once again bashing Christians. For one Christians do not HATE Gays, they disapprove of the life style. The bible makes it a sin to lie with someone of your own sex.

Except for fringe groups you won't find many gay bashers in a church. They will rightfully disapprove of your open sexual choices but other then that you can find many Christians that have no problem with Gay friends. One can disagree with a friends choices and still remain their friend.

I have always been friendly to any Gays I knew. I tried unsuccessfully at a job I had to get a card game going once a week with a gay co worker. The other guys were all against it. Of course they couldn't explain why.

That is the attitude you are most likely to encounter. A general uneasy feeling to association. Not open animosity or name calling or acts of any kind. The gay co worker was just fine at work no one bothered him at all they just wouldn't associate with him outside work.

Christians think homosexuality is a sin. Buddhists don't. We have the same conduct precepts as a heterosexual.

I salute you for being friendly toward gays and trying to include the coworker who was shunned.

Isn't there a long tradition in Buddhism that teaches homosexuality is misconduct? That is in essence the same claim Christianity makes.

 

[CurveLight]

sodomy....

Chapter and verse of where this is a sin?

You asked, I answered. You don't like my answer, look it up yourself. I really don't want to right now.

Your answer is nonsensical as "sodomy" was first used in the 14th century, which is quite a few years away from the Bible.

Eta: sodomy refers to anal sex which definitely cannot apply to all gays but can apply to all heteros.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Once again bashing Christians. For one Christians do not HATE Gays, they disapprove of the life style. The bible makes it a sin to lie with someone of your own sex.

Except for fringe groups you won't find many gay bashers in a church. They will rightfully disapprove of your open sexual choices but other then that you can find many Christians that have no problem with Gay friends. One can disagree with a friends choices and still remain their friend.

I have always been friendly to any Gays I knew. I tried unsuccessfully at a job I had to get a card game going once a week with a gay co worker. The other guys were all against it. Of course they couldn't explain why.

That is the attitude you are most likely to encounter. A general uneasy feeling to association. Not open animosity or name calling or acts of any kind. The gay co worker was just fine at work no one bothered him at all they just wouldn't associate with him outside work.

Christians think homosexuality is a sin. Buddhists don't. We have the same conduct precepts as a heterosexual.

I salute you for being friendly toward gays and trying to include the coworker who was shunned.

Isn't there a long tradition in Buddhism that teaches homosexuality is misconduct? That is in essence the same claim Christianity makes.

Yes. In some Buddhist countries they are not very open to homosexuals.

"Buddhist monks are expected to live lives of celibacy, meaning abstinance from any type of sex. There is no explicit rule prohibiting those with a homosexual orientation from monastic life. However, in the Vinaya, the Buddha is recorded as opposing the ordination of those who openly expressed cross-gender features or strong homosexual desires and actions . The Buddhist sacred texts do contain a great deal of instances of loving relationships between unmarried men, which some believe to have homoerotic overtones. No sexual contact is mentioned in these instances, however.

Lay Buddhists (those who live outside the monastery) are expected to adhere to Five Precepts, the third of which is a vow "not to engage in sexual misconduct." But what is sexual misconduct? Right and wrong behavior in Buddhism is generally determined by considerations such as the following:


•Universalibility principle - "How would I like it if someone did this to me?"
•Consequences - Does the act causes harm and regret (in oneself or others) or benefit and joy?
•Utilitarian principle - Will the act help or harm the attainment of goals (ultimately spiritual liberation)?
•Intention - Is the act motivated by love, generosity and understanding?
"Sexual misconduct" has thus traditionally been interpreted to include actions like coercive sex, sexual harassment, child molestation and adultery. As Homosexuality is not explicitly mentioned in any of the Buddha's sayings recorded in the Pali Canon (Tripitaka), most interpreters have taken this to mean that homosexuality should be evaluated in the same way as heterosexuality, in accordance with the above principles.

A Buddhist author of an article on homosexuality concludes:

In the case of the lay man and woman where there is mutual consent, where adultery is not involved and where the sexual act is an expression of love, respect, loyalty and warmth, it would not be breaking the third Precept. And it is the same when the two people are of the same gender. Likewise promiscuity, license and the disregard for the feelings of others would make a sexual act unskillful whether it be heterosexual or homosexual. All the principles we would use to evaluate a heterosexual relationship we would also use to evaluate a homosexual one. In Buddhism we could say that it is not the object of one's sexual desire that determines whether a sexual act is unskillful or not, but rather the quality of the emotions and intentions involved.

It is also worth noting that Buddhism does not traditionally place great value on procreation like many western religions. From the Buddhist viewpoint, being married with children is regarded as generally positive, but not compulsory (although social norms in various Buddhist countries often have different views.

Homosexuality and Buddhism - ReligionFacts

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I am pretty sure that was my point, and I used words like " I think" and " in my opinion".
Which is why I don't think we should use the Bible against homosexuals, and for the reason you stated. Someone else is speaking for Jesus.

You might think that is your point, but in claiming the Bible is wrong, without any sort of evidence to back up your claim, you are the one making judgments. Further, if you are wrong, you might actually be endangering someone else by teaching them falsely. If, on the other hand, someone simply points out that the Bible states that homosexuality is a sin, and then goes on to love the homosexual because God is love, then that will not reflect negatively on them if God keeps track of things like that.

By the way, I can actually back my position up from the Bible, and point out the factual errors that are in it. I can also discuss the different translations accurately, and discuss the original language if called on to do so. You just want to throw out the parts of the Bible that you disagree with in the hope that God will understand that you are smarter than the guys who actually wrote it.

I have a right to my opinion, and I am not endangering anyone when I tell them it is my opinion. And you have no proof the Bible is the word of God, you are going on the word of other people. Which might be why they call it faith.

I am not saying you do not have a right to your opinion, I am saying you do not have a right to define sin.

Also, please point out where I made any claim that the Bible is the Word of God. I was very careful not to make that claim so no one would argue that I did.

 

[asterism]

Christians think homosexuality is wrong, immoral and sinful. That doesn't seem real friendly to me.

Once again bashing Christians. For one Christians do not HATE Gays, they disapprove of the life style. The bible makes it a sin to lie with someone of your own sex.

Except for fringe groups you won't find many gay bashers in a church. They will rightfully disapprove of your open sexual choices but other then that you can find many Christians that have no problem with Gay friends. One can disagree with a friends choices and still remain their friend.

I have always been friendly to any Gays I knew. I tried unsuccessfully at a job I had to get a card game going once a week with a gay co worker. The other guys were all against it. Of course they couldn't explain why.

That is the attitude you are most likely to encounter. A general uneasy feeling to association. Not open animosity or name calling or acts of any kind. The gay co worker was just fine at work no one bothered him at all they just wouldn't associate with him outside work.

Christians think homosexuality is a sin. Buddhists don't. We have the same conduct precepts as a heterosexual.

I salute you for being friendly toward gays and trying to include the coworker who was shunned.

Not all Christians think homosexuality is a sin, and even those who do are able to be friends with them because being a sinner is just human nature.

Why such bigotry on your part?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I question what sort of friendship is on offer that rejects the essence of a person, their loves, their heart's desire. I also question where in the fuck some of you get your sti infection/death rate information.

Friendship is loving someone without (acting on) a sexual desire for them. All love is based on respect and acceptance.

An honest friend accepts a person even if they think they are doing something wrong. Why do you reject the power of people to have different views about things and still be friends? Look at James Carville and Mary Matlin.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Once again bashing Christians. For one Christians do not HATE Gays, they disapprove of the life style. The bible makes it a sin to lie with someone of your own sex.

Except for fringe groups you won't find many gay bashers in a church. They will rightfully disapprove of your open sexual choices but other then that you can find many Christians that have no problem with Gay friends. One can disagree with a friends choices and still remain their friend.

I have always been friendly to any Gays I knew. I tried unsuccessfully at a job I had to get a card game going once a week with a gay co worker. The other guys were all against it. Of course they couldn't explain why.

That is the attitude you are most likely to encounter. A general uneasy feeling to association. Not open animosity or name calling or acts of any kind. The gay co worker was just fine at work no one bothered him at all they just wouldn't associate with him outside work.

Christians think homosexuality is a sin. Buddhists don't. We have the same conduct precepts as a heterosexual.

I salute you for being friendly toward gays and trying to include the coworker who was shunned.

Not all Christians think homosexuality is a sin, and even those who do are able to be friends with them because being a sinner is just human nature.

Why such bigotry on your part?

What bigotry? Some Christians are gay friendly and some are not.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Jesus taught that prostitution was wrong, immoral, and sinful, yet he hung out with prostitutes. I see no reason, given that example, that Christians cannot be friends with homosexuals. Maybe I am not judgmental enough for you though.

You are talking to a lady that openly posted that because Christians are opposed to same sex marriage they are more DANGEROUS then Muslim terrorists.

That's not what I said. What I said was that Christians in America negatively impact my life more than Muslims do.

You don't travel much, do you?

 

[Sky Dancer]

You are talking to a lady that openly posted that because Christians are opposed to same sex marriage they are more DANGEROUS then Muslim terrorists.

That's not what I said. What I said was that Christians in America negatively impact my life more than Muslims do.

You don't travel much, do you?

I've traveled to India, Nepal, Thailand and Korea. What I am specifically addressing, is the LDS and Catholic Church's activism in defeating marriage equality in California. That directly impacted my life.

 

[Immanuel]

That's not what I said. What I said was that Christians in America negatively impact my life more than Muslims do.

You don't travel much, do you?

I've traveled to India, Nepal, Thailand and Korea. What I am specifically addressing, is the LDS and Catholic Church's activism in defeating marriage equality in California. That directly impacted my life.

Not being supportive of marriage equality does not equate to hating homosexuals or being homophobic.

To me, marriage is a rite of the church. I do not think anyone except the church should be involved in the rite of marriage. That means if a church is "gay friendly" and wants to marry homosexuals, it should have every right to do so.

That is why I am for the idea of "civil unions". I realize it is just semantics, but to me, it leaves marriage in the church and allows the state to treat every citizen equally.

Immie

 

[Steerpike]

I've traveled to India, Nepal, Thailand and Korea. What I am specifically addressing, is the LDS and Catholic Church's activism in defeating marriage equality in California. That directly impacted my life.

Ultimately, the blame has to fall to the voter. No matter what the Churches do by way of advocacy, the voters had a choice.

Ironically, the Obama candidacy hurt Prop 8.