Communication between God and man

[Vandalshandle]

You can ask God after studying out the principles it teaches.

But you don't want to. You want someone else to.

I've studied and read... I've asked your invisible friend to contact me... but nothing. Ever. Why do you religious folks always think that unbelievers have never read up on the subject. I went to church, sunday school, studied Catechism through my private school into my late teens, still read up on the subjects... and have found nothing concrete to hang on to. Like I said, the stories, especially in the Mormon book, sounds made up and cartoonish, never mind that they go against science, which a thinking person can't get around.

Maybe it's because you claim to have read up and then start talking about John Smith and completely ignoring the fact that your problems are literally being answered by what your responding to.

Talking in circles, you folks seem to like to do that, don't you? Instead of giving me solid proof that your god exists. Go for it, I'm listening...

The problem is you aren't listening. You want someone else to do the work for you to get to know God. No one can do that.

I keep inviting you to. It's like me inviting you to see my friend in the house on the hill. All you have to do is go up to the door and knock and get to know Him yourself, but you just demand proof someone lives there with no desire to get to know Him. Nevermind that your neighbors go to the house frequently and have great relationships with Him.

No one can be in a relationship for you. That is something you have to do on your own.

Brigham has given some knowledge how to do it. Remember that when you are ready

I don't see anything in those writings that would make me think that your god actually exists. Maybe you have something specific?

Well, he gave Smith a bunch of golden plates, what else do you want? It wasn't Joe's fault that he fell on hard times and had to pawn them.....

 

[Avatar4321]

Ok then, let's start on page 1, do you have any proof that a god made the world in 6 days, which goes against all scientific knowledge?

First, I never believed God made the world in a literal six days. That is a literal interpretation of the English translation from the original Hebrew. We can see (supported by other Bible passages by the way) that the word translated as "day" in English also means an indefinite period of time, but one signifying a beginning and an end.

See? You can't even all agree on what the bible means, so how do you expect non-believers to accept it? Under which meaning should I accept it? Some say literal 6 days, some say no. Who's right?

This is precisely why the Lord gives us the Holy Ghost to lead us. So He can teach the truths of the scriptures.

So is your truth 6 actual days, or something else?

Hard to be days like we consider them when the sun wasn't created til day three.

 

[sealybobo]

God told me that Mormons are a bunch of delusional nuts stuck in a cult. he isn't angry about it. He finds it rather amusing, especially the underwear....

It seems talking to god makes you crazy because Joseph Smith asked god which religion he should join and god said NONE OF THEM because they are all corrupt.

Had Joseph stopped there he would have been right. But instead he said god then told him to start his own church. Nice. He must have been a great con man

How do you know God didn't tell him that

God told me that he didn't.

Aren't you an atheist?

Why don't you ask God? If you talk to God and he to you I suppose you have all the answers.

Is it going to rain today? Should you marry that person? Who murdered Jon bonet Ramsey? What should we do about North Korea?

GW bush said god told him to invade iraq

 

[sealybobo]

You can ask God after studying out the principles it teaches.

But you don't want to. You want someone else to.

I've studied and read... I've asked your invisible friend to contact me... but nothing. Ever. Why do you religious folks always think that unbelievers have never read up on the subject. I went to church, sunday school, studied Catechism through my private school into my late teens, still read up on the subjects... and have found nothing concrete to hang on to. Like I said, the stories, especially in the Mormon book, sounds made up and cartoonish, never mind that they go against science, which a thinking person can't get around.

Maybe it's because you claim to have read up and then start talking about John Smith and completely ignoring the fact that your problems are literally being answered by what your responding to.

Talking in circles, you folks seem to like to do that, don't you? Instead of giving me solid proof that your god exists. Go for it, I'm listening...

The problem is you aren't listening. You want someone else to do the work for you to get to know God. No one can do that.

I keep inviting you to. It's like me inviting you to see my friend in the house on the hill. All you have to do is go up to the door and knock and get to know Him yourself, but you just demand proof someone lives there with no desire to get to know Him. Nevermind that your neighbors go to the house frequently and have great relationships with Him.

No one can be in a relationship for you. That is something you have to do on your own.

Brigham has given some knowledge how to do it. Remember that when you are ready

I don't see anything in those writings that would make me think that your god actually exists. Maybe you have something specific?

When I read or hear scripture it doesn't move me. I believe it's meant to brainwash and goes in circles and just seems like ramblings.

And it assumes god is real, visited and these impossible things happened.

Then some suggest or admit they are stories or parables designed to give a message.

They addressed just about every issue of the day. One issue god forgot was equality and human rights for women and blacks. It took Christians 1900 years to let them even vote.

 

[Meriweather]

They addressed just about every issue of the day. One issue god forgot was equality and human rights for women and blacks. It took Christians 1900 years to let them even vote.

This type of nonsense drives me crazy. I do a lot of genealogy which includes gathering information from legal documents. Trust me, if your many great-grandmother knew you thought she would let herself be oppressed by a mere many great-grandfather, she would have you by the ear and would be setting you straight in short order. My great-grandmothers traveled across the ocean on their own, through equally dangerous wilderness, also on their own. While history books will tell you they couldn't own businesses, property, or could be executors of wills and estates, let alone vote, actual documents show the exact opposite. One great-mother, suddenly widowed, succeeded very well at running her farm. That included hitching herself to a plow, even though she was pregnant, to insure the spring planting got done.

These women were not born into a perfect world. The voting rules of their times still followed the idea that property owners were permitted to vote. It was like one vote per family, and the registered property owner cast that vote. When it changed to all men, both men and women (over time) got it to include all women as well.

I swear, if I ever have a great-grandson (or heaven forbid great-granddaughter) who bemoans the fact that women today were also oppressed, I'll come back to slap him or her upside of the head.

People need to learn real history, and to also be appreciative of the fact that that every generation, all born into a changing world, inherited traditions that were behind the times. Guess who were best about bringing about changes in traditions? That's right. Women. Those very people you think of as so weak and impotent that they actually allowed themselves to be sadly oppressed. Hah! I'll bet any one of them could beat any man today in just about anything. Heck, women today can beat any man in just about anything. We came from sturdy stock going back generations upon generations. Get real.

 

[Mudda]

Ok then, let's start on page 1, do you have any proof that a god made the world in 6 days, which goes against all scientific knowledge?

First, I never believed God made the world in a literal six days. That is a literal interpretation of the English translation from the original Hebrew. We can see (supported by other Bible passages by the way) that the word translated as "day" in English also means an indefinite period of time, but one signifying a beginning and an end.

See? You can't even all agree on what the bible means, so how do you expect non-believers to accept it? Under which meaning should I accept it? Some say literal 6 days, some say no. Who's right?

This is precisely why the Lord gives us the Holy Ghost to lead us. So He can teach the truths of the scriptures.

So is your truth 6 actual days, or something else?

Hard to be days like we consider them when the sun wasn't created til day three.

So you don't believe that what the bible says is true. Good for you.

And you realize that what you do believe goes squarely against science?

 

[Meriweather]

So you don't believe that what the bible says is true. Good for you.

And you realize that what you do believe goes squarely against science?

The topic the Bible covers is not the living planet, but on living life: It teaches how we connect with others (God, self, loved ones and enemies). It doesn't teach the science about the rock we live on, but about ourselves.

 

[Aletheia4u]

I often hear that we need to have a relationship with God. I believe that to be a true principle. Key to that is revelation and prayer. I happened to be reading a chapter of quotes from Brigham Young on the matter and felt impressed to share a few.

Communication between God and man

I do not believe for one moment that there has been a man or woman upon the face of the earth, from the days of Adam to this day, who has not been enlightened, instructed, and taught by the revelations of Jesus Christ. “What! the ignorant heathen?” Yes, every human being who has possessed a sane mind. I am far from believing that the children of men have been deprived of the privilege of receiving the Spirit of the Lord to teach them right from wrong

I … believe positively that there is nothing known except by the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ, whether in theology, science, or art

We often hear it said that the living oracles must be in the Church, in order that the Kingdom of God may be established and prosper on the earth. I will give another version of this sentiment. I say that the living oracles of God, or the Spirit of revelation must be in each and every individual, to know the plan of salvation and keep in the path that leads them to the presence of God

When the Spirit of revelation from God inspires a man, his mind is opened to behold the beauty, order, and glory of the creation of this earth and its inhabitants, the object of its creation, and the purpose of its Creator in peopling it with his children. He can then clearly understand that our existence here is for the sole purpose of exaltation and restoration to the presence of our Father and God

My favorite:

If the Devil says you cannot pray when you are angry, tell him it is none of his business, and pray until that species of insanity is dispelled and serenity is restored to the mind

You have to walk with Him in order to get to know Him. You wouldn't know what language He speaks if you hasn't been around Him. Just like being around someone that speaks only Spanish. If you are around that person for a very long time, eventually that you will be able to know how to speak a little Spanish. The longer you are with them, the more you will learn.

 

[PK1]

Communication between God and man ...

is subjective, no?
As such, how do we know this "communication" is not fantasy?

Specific god belief/faith is like putting the cart in front of the horse, i.e., ...
confirmation bias.

 

[RodISHI]

Communication between God and man ...

is subjective, no?
As such, how do we know this "communication" is not fantasy?

Specific god belief/faith is like putting the cart in front of the horse, i.e., ...
confirmation bias.

How do you know if anything is real or fantasy?

For many of us it came through self examination and we do witness to what we have seen and experienced.

 

[PK1]

Communication between God and man ...

is subjective, no?
As such, how do we know this "communication" is not fantasy?

Specific god belief/faith is like putting the cart in front of the horse, i.e., ...
confirmation bias.

How do you know if anything is real or fantasy?

For many of us it came through self examination and we do witness to what we have seen and experienced.

Real or fantasy?
Yes, experience is usually (not always) a good differentiator, especially if you compare your experiences with another brain/person ... to be more objective.
Ultimately, it's about adaptation (to your environment/ecology) and survival that will reflect "reality".

 

[RodISHI]

Communication between God and man ...

is subjective, no?
As such, how do we know this "communication" is not fantasy?

Specific god belief/faith is like putting the cart in front of the horse, i.e., ...
confirmation bias.

How do you know if anything is real or fantasy?

For many of us it came through self examination and we do witness to what we have seen and experienced.

Real or fantasy?
Yes, experience is usually (not always) a good differentiator, especially if you compare your experiences with another brain/person ... to be more objective.
Ultimately, it's about adaptation (to your environment/ecology) and survival that will reflect "reality".

I have learned that as mere humans we may think one thing but the facts may be something wholly different upon extreme examination. Most of us fail to recognize that there are spiritual things that determine our very thoughts and actions. We do that as we cannot understand certain things when they happen or when we were involved in them but unaware of the spiritual. It is something like asking a crowd of people what they saw when things happen but several saw something different even though all had a similar place to watch an event unfold. Or meeting someone for what you think is the first time yet there is something about that person that you seem to have known for a long time.

I do know when a person is being awakened spiritual and that veil between the spiritual mind and the carnal mind is removed it is very confusing to the flesh as we were not taught to view things in the spirit.

 

[Meriweather]

Communication between God and man ...

is subjective, no?
As such, how do we know this "communication" is not fantasy?

Let's make the question more straight-forward. Sometimes, when people are trying to pray, do they enter into the realm of fantasy? The answer for me is, "Absolutely!" I enter into fantasy/imagination even in every day life. I know when I am imagining something, and I also know what is real.

Perhaps the problem for many atheists is that they do try to pray...and all they can come up with is fantasy. Therefore, it is easy to assume that this state must be the same for everyone, that some people are simply better pretenders. Instead think of people hitting the bulls-eye when shooting a bow and arrow from a distance of three hundred feet or more. Not many people will hit that target every time. But that doesn't mean it can't be done, especially with continuous practice. In many respects prayer is a skill.

 

[Mudda]

So you don't believe that what the bible says is true. Good for you.

And you realize that what you do believe goes squarely against science?

The topic the Bible covers is not the living planet, but on living life: It teaches how we connect with others (God, self, loved ones and enemies). It doesn't teach the science about the rock we live on, but about ourselves.

So none of the stories are true? Or are you a cherry picker like pretty much everyone else here?

 

[Meriweather]

So none of the stories are true? Or are you a cherry picker like pretty much everyone else here?

What is the theme of each story? What is the lesson the author wished to teach? For whom is the lesson intended?

As for your question: Do I think every lesson in the Bible is about me? No. So I humbly accept your categorization as "Cherry Picker."

 

[Mudda]

So none of the stories are true? Or are you a cherry picker like pretty much everyone else here?

What is the theme of each story? What is the lesson the author wished to teach? For whom is the lesson intended?

As for your question: Do I think every lesson in the Bible is about me? No. So I humbly accept your categorization as "Cherry Picker."

So what's the theme of god making the world in 6 days but that that's not true? The author thought that god made the everything in 6 days, and so did Christianity, until science proved them wrong.

 

[Meriweather]

So what's the theme of god making the world in 6 days but that that's not true? The author thought that god made the everything in 6 days, and so did Christianity, until science proved them wrong.

Shrug. Go ahead. Believe the world was literally created in six days. Some Christians and some ultra-orthodox Jews believe this. Strain out the gnat. Swallow the camel. Remember, however, the calculation that the earth was six thousand years old was made by Ussher, a Christian, in the 1800s. Fourteen hundred years earlier, Jews were already noting this might not be the case. The wording for the first five-and-a-half days of creation had them thinking there were two "clocks." The "clock" that was in play that first five-and-a-half years, was not the same "clock" as after man was created.

An Israeli scientist sums it up as noting that if the first clock is based on the moment of creation, and then the universe begins expanding, the expansion is also going to expand the amount of time between one event (or day) and the next. Using physics calculations I don't fully understand which takes this expansion into consideration, what was a "day" before the expansion began now stretches into fifteen billion years. True, today's scientists say it was more like 14.something billion years, but 15 billion is still in the ballpark.

The point is, Jews long before Ussher, noted in the wording that there seemed to be two different ways of calculating time in Genesis.

Fascinating stuff. But you keep studying Ussher as though he came up with the only truth.

 

[Mudda]

So what's the theme of god making the world in 6 days but that that's not true? The author thought that god made the everything in 6 days, and so did Christianity, until science proved them wrong.

Shrug. Go ahead. Believe the world was literally created in six days. Some Christians and some ultra-orthodox Jews believe this. Strain out the gnat. Swallow the camel. Remember, however, the calculation that the earth was six thousand years old was made by Ussher, a Christian, in the 1800s. Fourteen hundred years earlier, Jews were already noting this might not be the case. The wording for the first five-and-a-half days of creation had them thinking there were two "clocks." The "clock" that was in play that first five-and-a-half years, was not the same "clock" as after man was created.

An Israeli scientist sums it up as noting that if the first clock is based on the moment of creation, and then the universe begins expanding, the expansion is also going to expand the amount of time between one event (or day) and the next. Using physics calculations I don't fully understand which takes this expansion into consideration, what was a "day" before the expansion began now stretches into fifteen billion years. True, today's scientists say it was more like 14.something billion years, but 15 billion is still in the ballpark.

The point is, Jews long before Ussher, noted in the wording that there seemed to be two different ways of calculating time in Genesis.

Fascinating stuff. But you keep studying Ussher as though he came up with the only truth.

So basically, you have to give the bible alternate meanings for it to make sense to you. I should do that with movies I don't like, just pretend that they're actually sci-fi thrillers like I like them, because nobody could ever write such a bad and unbelievable movie as it was filmed?

 

[Meriweather]

So basically, you have to give the bible alternate meanings for it to make sense to you. I should do that with movies I don't like, just pretend that they're actually sci-fi thrillers like I like them, because nobody could ever write such a bad and unbelievable movie as it was filmed?

It is more like you who believing gold can be made from lead and that the earth is flat. Scientists said so! You MUST believe it because you believe in science! Since there are still people who believe this--and you believe science--you must believe the earth is flat and gold can be made from lead. If you say you don't believe it, then you must be a cherry picker. See where I am going with this?

Just as different people arrive at different conclusions on scientific matters (string theory, dinosaur extinction, climate change) so do people of faith arrive at differing conclusions about scripture and spiritual matters. Neither people of science nor people of religion can be tossed into one basket. Yet, day after day, year after year, that is what you have been doing here to people of faith.

Too many take what some modern Americans believe about the Bible, and too many make assumptions that all Christians/people of faith believe the same thing--and have believed this exact same thing from time immemorial. If people did even a teensy bit of studying they would immediately see that today people have a wide variety of beliefs about what Genesis says about creation, and with a tiny bit more study they will find that down through the ages people were having the same discussion you and I are having today.

 

[Mudda]

So basically, you have to give the bible alternate meanings for it to make sense to you. I should do that with movies I don't like, just pretend that they're actually sci-fi thrillers like I like them, because nobody could ever write such a bad and unbelievable movie as it was filmed?

It is more like you who believing gold can be made from lead and that the earth is flat. Scientists said so! You MUST believe it because you believe in science! Since there are still people who believe this--and you believe science--you must believe the earth is flat and gold can be made from lead. If you say you don't believe it, then you must be a cherry picker. See where I am going with this?

Just as different people arrive at different conclusions on scientific matters (string theory, dinosaur extinction, climate change) so do people of faith arrive at differing conclusions about scripture and spiritual matters. Neither people of science nor people of religion can be tossed into one basket. Yet, day after day, year after year, that is what you have been doing here to people of faith.

Too many take what some modern Americans believe about the Bible, and too many make assumptions that all Christians/people of faith believe the same thing--and have believed this exact same thing from time immemorial. If people did even a teensy bit of studying they would immediately see that today people have a wide variety of beliefs about what Genesis says about creation, and with a tiny bit more study they will find that down through the ages people were having the same discussion you and I are having today.

Scientist agree on conclusions, otherwise what they disagree on are theories. Are you saying that you believe in a theory? Because not all Christians can be right. How would you be able to tell who is right and who is wrong?