Conservatives sold themselves two lies

[rightwinger]

If the GOP is going to just roll over, and that appears to be the case, it'll make things tougher on anyone trying to stop this.

I'm on the outside looking in, too. The Regressives have virtually total control of the party right now. I'm doing things locally, and that's the only thing I can think of to do at this point.
.

What exactly do you think we could DO?

Please see post 98.
.

1. Not addressing a specific concern you have, is not rejecting you.


2. We've done nothing to make minorities feel like outcasts. We've been pushing for civil rights and diversity and all that for generations. NIXON is the one that desegregated most of the Southern schools, for Christ's sake.

Liberals pushed for that until it reached a tipping point, then it became widespread. Parties and ideologies are two different things as the southern Dems were absolutely conservative. But here is where I think the GOP does make them feel like their voices are not heard, Black Lives Matter. What is ignored is the huge groundswell of anger at their concerns being ignored for years. Instead of listening they are demonized, their kids are labeled thugs. How is that different than the rust belt being labeled racist because they see illegal immigrants as taking their jobs?

1. The GOP of the 50 and 60s that pushed racial equality was not "liberal", Nixon had rock solid anti-communist cred.

2. Black concerns have not been ignored for years. They have constantly been addressed.

3. They were addressed badly by cowardly or corrupt politician that for different reasons would not address the real causes of the problems, but lack of addressed did not happen.

GOP in the 50s and 60s actually had a powerful liberal branch

By Reagan, they had been driven from the party

 

[MarcATL]

The First Law of thermodynamics is; 'There is no such thing as a free lunch'.

Actually the first law says that energy can be neither created nor destroyed, only transferred or converted. You must be confusing it with the first law of being a cafeteria lady.

The second law of theromodynamics says that a closed system always tends towards entropy. You seem to be talking about the second law of janitors.

LoLing!

Funny and agree.

Sent from my SM-J710F using Tapatalk

 

[rightwinger]

I am very disappointed that the current GOP under Trump seems to have made white nationalists feel empowered and the push back has been very weak.

.. and minorities have noticed.
.

Been lied to by the vile media.


The only people empowering the white nationalists are the media that have a vested interests in lying about their size and relevance.

You can't blame everything on the media.

People watch and listen and live, and they see.

Was it the media's fault when Trump claimed to not know who David Duke is? Was that fake news?

Come on.
.

Trump has denounced white supremacists over and over, before and after that single example.

After a certain point, the question becomes not a question, but a propaganda smear, where by asking it, you make the implication that it is a reasonable question to ask, when it is not.


WHat should have happened in any sane world, is that Trump should have punched that fucker in the face for asking the question.


ANd now, because he blows off that question, that one time, the media never lets it die, lies about it, and creates the false impression that Trump is racist.


I do blame the media. I hold them accountable.

Trump only renounced white supremacists after catching flak for initially supporting them

Some of them are good people

 

[Coyote]

If the GOP is going to just roll over, and that appears to be the case, it'll make things tougher on anyone trying to stop this.

I'm on the outside looking in, too. The Regressives have virtually total control of the party right now. I'm doing things locally, and that's the only thing I can think of to do at this point.
.

What exactly do you think we could DO?

Please see post 98.
.

1. Not addressing a specific concern you have, is not rejecting you.


2. We've done nothing to make minorities feel like outcasts. We've been pushing for civil rights and diversity and all that for generations. NIXON is the one that desegregated most of the Southern schools, for Christ's sake.

Liberals pushed for that until it reached a tipping point, then it became widespread. Parties and ideologies are two different things as the southern Dems were absolutely conservative. But here is where I think the GOP does make them feel like their voices are not heard, Black Lives Matter. What is ignored is the huge groundswell of anger at their concerns being ignored for years. Instead of listening they are demonized, their kids are labeled thugs. How is that different than the rust belt being labeled racist because they see illegal immigrants as taking their jobs?

Nobody in the rust belt has been labeled racist simply for concern over losing jobs. That's especially true since the REAL reason jobs were lost has nothing to do with ethnic minorities.

They have been lumping of those people into one label...deploarable. And that automatically negates their concerns.

And yes, the reasons for job loss are not because of immigrants, they are diverse, complex and regional. But it isn’t about facts it is about perceptions and addressing them. How can you address them when you have already decided they aren’t worth listening to? Go in there and dog jobs, pensions, community revival, drug addiction treatment and prevention, healthcare, and boosting education and vocational retraining. These people don’t want to hear about lgbtq rights, they need their immediate concerns addressed.

 

[Seawytch]

That would be a great thing but it's a big "if", especially the way it's being tried.

You asked for an example of us mobilizing for change.


I gave you one that is happening right now.


Regardless of whether we succeed, we have "mobilized for change" and that meet your demand.

You asked for an example of us mobilizing for change.


I gave you one that is happening right now.


Regardless of whether we succeed, we have "mobilized for change" and that meet your demand.

Electing Trump is not mobilizing for change.
I have never seen conservatives marching by the hundreds of thousands under a unified message of a specific change. Ever.

Now you are moving the goal post on what "mobilizing for change" is.


Trump is a true outsider. The leadership of both parties fought against him. THe big money of both parties fought against him.

The policies he ran on, if implemented, will reverse bi-partisan policies with generations behind them.


Trump is the modern day version of a peasant revolt.

Now you are moving the goal post on what "mobilizing for change" is.

I'm not. My point hasn't changed. You just obviously missed the point in the first place.
Go back and reread.

Just keep dismissing it. Then be surprised when Change happens.


Won't it piss you off when your friends and peers start seeing rising wages.

Rising wages will be great...as long as they aren't accompanied by a rise in prices due to the Trade War the homunculus orange blob wants to start.

 

[Wry Catcher]

I am very disappointed that the current GOP under Trump seems to have made white nationalists feel empowered and the push back has been very weak.

.. and minorities have noticed.
.

Been lied to by the vile media.


The only people empowering the white nationalists are the media that have a vested interests in lying about their size and relevance.

You can't blame everything on the media.

People watch and listen and live, and they see.

Was it the media's fault when Trump claimed to not know who David Duke is? Was that fake news?

Come on.
.

Trump has denounced white supremacists over and over, before and after that single example.

After a certain point, the question becomes not a question, but a propaganda smear, where by asking it, you make the implication that it is a reasonable question to ask, when it is not.


WHat should have happened in any sane world, is that Trump should have punched that fucker in the face for asking the question.


ANd now, because he blows off that question, that one time, the media never lets it die, lies about it, and creates the false impression that Trump is racist.


I do blame the media. I hold them accountable.

Trump speaks out of both sides of his mouth. He is a liar, and one who lies so much he becomes confused; his values begin and end with Money, and as such his concern is always how what he says will impact him and his money.

 

[Coyote]

We've done that. All it does in support the vile lefty lying narrative that the GOP is the party of racism.


It failed.

Gee.....I wonder why?


Libs are successful because they offer inclusion.
Cons offer exclusion at ever opportunity.

Would you care to give your best example of the GOP offering "exclusion"?

Really?
If you have to ask that question then you'll never get it.

The GOP would LOVE to get some support from minority voters that agree with us on the issues.


We've tried.


That's an attempt at INCLUSION.


Do you want me to back that up? I'll be happy to.


I challenge you to give me your best example of the GOP being "exclusion".

Republicans found it more profitable to use minorities as scapegoats for all that is wrong with society

That is true....but the Democrats have also started taking them for granted.

 

[impuretrash]

Gee.....I wonder why?


Libs are successful because they offer inclusion.
Cons offer exclusion at ever opportunity.

Lib "inclusion":

You're too white, too straight, too christian. So ignorant and stupid. And worst of all, BIGOTED.

 

[Coyote]

Yep, very good point. And "rejection" is a very good term.

The GOP is doing this to themselves, and they don't have to. They've been led down the wrong road.
.

You know what I find most amusing about the left these days, Mac? It's their habit of accusing the opposition of the very thing that they themselves are guilty of. The GOP plays "identity politics"? Really?

Absolutely.

Don’t be a race traitor. Keep America white. Vote Republican.
Keep people out from shithole countries. Vote Republican.

Dragonlady is the perfect example of how liberals use identity politics to attack the GOP. Trump calls for common sense immigration reform...something that we should have done YEARS ago! So what do people like DL fixate on? That Trump thinks some parts of the world are worse than others? Something that may not be politically correct but is 100% accurate?

Liberals also want common sense comprehensive immigration reform: improved border security, more rapid adjudication and deportation for violent offenses, some sort of expanded system for legal work permits so as to reduce pressure to immigrate illegally, and expanding the number of merit based while not eliminating non merit based immigration. Even so called shithole countries have given us great people.

conservatives want those exact same things, Why doesn't congress want them?

Because Congress is effed up?

 

[Seawytch]

What exactly do you think we could DO?

Please see post 98.
.

1. Not addressing a specific concern you have, is not rejecting you.


2. We've done nothing to make minorities feel like outcasts. We've been pushing for civil rights and diversity and all that for generations. NIXON is the one that desegregated most of the Southern schools, for Christ's sake.

Liberals pushed for that until it reached a tipping point, then it became widespread. Parties and ideologies are two different things as the southern Dems were absolutely conservative. But here is where I think the GOP does make them feel like their voices are not heard, Black Lives Matter. What is ignored is the huge groundswell of anger at their concerns being ignored for years. Instead of listening they are demonized, their kids are labeled thugs. How is that different than the rust belt being labeled racist because they see illegal immigrants as taking their jobs?

Nobody in the rust belt has been labeled racist simply for concern over losing jobs. That's especially true since the REAL reason jobs were lost has nothing to do with ethnic minorities.

They have been lumping of those people into one label...deploarable. And that automatically negates their concerns.

And yes, the reasons for job loss are not because of immigrants, they are diverse, complex and regional. But it isn’t about facts it is about perceptions and addressing them. How can you address them when you have already decided they aren’t worth listening to? Go in there and dog jobs, pensions, community revival, drug addiction treatment and prevention, healthcare, and boosting education and vocational retraining. These people don’t want to hear about lgbtq rights, they need their immediate concerns addressed.

Those people didn't vote for Trump for economic reasons.

Economic Anxiety Didn’t Make People Vote Trump, Racism Did

 

[Redfish]

I am very disappointed that the current GOP under Trump seems to have made white nationalists feel empowered and the push back has been very weak.

.. and minorities have noticed.
.

I'm sure they have noticed. They have noticed the lowest black unemployment rate in years, the lowest number of welfare recipients in years, the reduction of regulations that allows minority businesses to flourish.

Yes, they have noticed, and they thank President Trump.

 

[Redfish]

You know what I find most amusing about the left these days, Mac? It's their habit of accusing the opposition of the very thing that they themselves are guilty of. The GOP plays "identity politics"? Really?

Absolutely.

Don’t be a race traitor. Keep America white. Vote Republican.
Keep people out from shithole countries. Vote Republican.

Dragonlady is the perfect example of how liberals use identity politics to attack the GOP. Trump calls for common sense immigration reform...something that we should have done YEARS ago! So what do people like DL fixate on? That Trump thinks some parts of the world are worse than others? Something that may not be politically correct but is 100% accurate?

Liberals also want common sense comprehensive immigration reform: improved border security, more rapid adjudication and deportation for violent offenses, some sort of expanded system for legal work permits so as to reduce pressure to immigrate illegally, and expanding the number of merit based while not eliminating non merit based immigration. Even so called shithole countries have given us great people.

conservatives want those exact same things, Why doesn't congress want them?

Because Congress is effed up?

I certainly cant disagree with that. Just another reason why we need term limits.

 

[Coyote]

You know what I find most amusing about the left these days, Mac? It's their habit of accusing the opposition of the very thing that they themselves are guilty of. The GOP plays "identity politics"? Really?

Partisan ideologues do that. I can't speak for Coyote, but I think the two sides play that game differently. The Left is aggressive, cynical and blatant in its use of Identity Politics, and with the Right it's a more de facto, indirect thing.
.

The left says "you don't have what you deserve because that person over there took it from you"...the right says "we can help you become that person over there." That's the "game".

Not from a minority person's perspective. The GOP can ignore that if it wants to.
.

It is like Dems ignoring the voices in areas hard hit by the recession that still haven’t recovered and are unlikely to given that the traditional industries and jobs that supported them are gone. No amount of tariffs and propping up coal will bring back jobs lost to automation and changing market places. The Dems need to listen and speak to those needs because it is a universal message.

We are.

I am not so sure.

Here are what I see as key markers to watch...

Are the elections of people like Lamb going to bring those more conservative Dem voices into the Big Tent...or, are they just “placeholders” until a more liberal candidate can be run?

Will the Dems run in 2018 on an anti Trump platform or will they steer clear of that and focus on policy and regional grass roots issues?

If they run in AntiTrump then I thing we are just going to keep seeing the wild pendulum swings and increasingly extreme parties with no middle.

 

[LoneLaugher]

What exactly do you think we could DO?

Please see post 98.
.

1. Not addressing a specific concern you have, is not rejecting you.


2. We've done nothing to make minorities feel like outcasts. We've been pushing for civil rights and diversity and all that for generations. NIXON is the one that desegregated most of the Southern schools, for Christ's sake.

Liberals pushed for that until it reached a tipping point, then it became widespread. Parties and ideologies are two different things as the southern Dems were absolutely conservative. But here is where I think the GOP does make them feel like their voices are not heard, Black Lives Matter. What is ignored is the huge groundswell of anger at their concerns being ignored for years. Instead of listening they are demonized, their kids are labeled thugs. How is that different than the rust belt being labeled racist because they see illegal immigrants as taking their jobs?

Nobody in the rust belt has been labeled racist simply for concern over losing jobs. That's especially true since the REAL reason jobs were lost has nothing to do with ethnic minorities.

They have been lumping of those people into one label...deploarable. And that automatically negates their concerns.

And yes, the reasons for job loss are not because of immigrants, they are diverse, complex and regional. But it isn’t about facts it is about perceptions and addressing them. How can you address them when you have already decided they aren’t worth listening to? Go in there and dog jobs, pensions, community revival, drug addiction treatment and prevention, healthcare, and boosting education and vocational retraining. These people don’t want to hear about lgbtq rights, they need their immediate concerns addressed.

If I told you that all of those things are addressed in the Dem platform but they aren't perceived as being addressed by those in the rust belt because they have been led to focus on the things like LTBQ rights as they have real disdain for gay people....would you see merit in my comment?

 

[Mac1958]

I'm sure they have noticed. They have noticed the lowest black unemployment rate in years, the lowest number of welfare recipients in years, the reduction of regulations that allows minority businesses to flourish. Yes, they have noticed, and they thank President Trump.

That's #2 in my OP, assuming that your priorities are everyone's priorities. They are not.
.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Gee.....I wonder why?


Libs are successful because they offer inclusion.
Cons offer exclusion at ever opportunity.

Would you care to give your best example of the GOP offering "exclusion"?

Really?
If you have to ask that question then you'll never get it.

The GOP would LOVE to get some support from minority voters that agree with us on the issues.


We've tried.


That's an attempt at INCLUSION.


Do you want me to back that up? I'll be happy to.


I challenge you to give me your best example of the GOP being "exclusion".

Republicans found it more profitable to use minorities as scapegoats for all that is wrong with society

That is true....but the Democrats have also started taking them for granted.

Nope.

 

[Redfish]

I'm sure they have noticed. They have noticed the lowest black unemployment rate in years, the lowest number of welfare recipients in years, the reduction of regulations that allows minority businesses to flourish. Yes, they have noticed, and they thank President Trump.

That's #2 in my OP, assuming that your priorities are everyone's priorities. They are not.
.

that's exactly the problem, we have become two countries. Might be time to separate and see which system works best.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Partisan ideologues do that. I can't speak for Coyote, but I think the two sides play that game differently. The Left is aggressive, cynical and blatant in its use of Identity Politics, and with the Right it's a more de facto, indirect thing.
.

The left says "you don't have what you deserve because that person over there took it from you"...the right says "we can help you become that person over there." That's the "game".

Not from a minority person's perspective. The GOP can ignore that if it wants to.
.

It is like Dems ignoring the voices in areas hard hit by the recession that still haven’t recovered and are unlikely to given that the traditional industries and jobs that supported them are gone. No amount of tariffs and propping up coal will bring back jobs lost to automation and changing market places. The Dems need to listen and speak to those needs because it is a universal message.

We are.

I am not so sure.

Here are what I see as key markers to watch...

Are the elections of people like Lamb going to bring those more conservative Dem voices into the Big Tent...or, are they just “placeholders” until a more liberal candidate can be run?

Will the Dems run in 2018 on an anti Trump platform or will they steer clear of that and focus on policy and regional grass roots issues?

If they run in AntiTrump then I thing we are just going to keep seeing the wild pendulum swings and increasingly extreme parties with no middle.

They will run on both. Opposing Trump is not a platform. It would be political malpractice to ignore his sub 40% approval rating in purple districts though.

I am involved in a congressional campaign in a very red district. I can assure you that the name Trump doesn't come up in our strategy meetings.

The focus is on policy. 100%.

 

[Redfish]

Please see post 98.
.

1. Not addressing a specific concern you have, is not rejecting you.


2. We've done nothing to make minorities feel like outcasts. We've been pushing for civil rights and diversity and all that for generations. NIXON is the one that desegregated most of the Southern schools, for Christ's sake.

Liberals pushed for that until it reached a tipping point, then it became widespread. Parties and ideologies are two different things as the southern Dems were absolutely conservative. But here is where I think the GOP does make them feel like their voices are not heard, Black Lives Matter. What is ignored is the huge groundswell of anger at their concerns being ignored for years. Instead of listening they are demonized, their kids are labeled thugs. How is that different than the rust belt being labeled racist because they see illegal immigrants as taking their jobs?

Nobody in the rust belt has been labeled racist simply for concern over losing jobs. That's especially true since the REAL reason jobs were lost has nothing to do with ethnic minorities.

They have been lumping of those people into one label...deploarable. And that automatically negates their concerns.

And yes, the reasons for job loss are not because of immigrants, they are diverse, complex and regional. But it isn’t about facts it is about perceptions and addressing them. How can you address them when you have already decided they aren’t worth listening to? Go in there and dog jobs, pensions, community revival, drug addiction treatment and prevention, healthcare, and boosting education and vocational retraining. These people don’t want to hear about lgbtq rights, they need their immediate concerns addressed.

If I told you that all of those things are addressed in the Dem platform but they aren't perceived as being addressed by those in the rust belt because they have been led to focus on the things like LTBQ rights as they have real disdain for gay people....would you see merit in my comment?

homosexuality and lesbianism are mental illnesses. to pretend that they are anything else is to be ignorant of human biology.

But, we should be tolerant of people with mental issues and treat them with respect, not make them something "special".

 

[MarcATL]

Looking at the threads, it's pretty clear that many of Trump's supporters are throwing up their hands right now. Understandable. Some are blaming Trump, others are blaming the GOP "swamp". Whichever.

Conservatives allowed themselves to believe two lies:

First, that overnight, they could just yank this entire country over to their way of looking at things. Mention "incrementalism" and they'd laugh. They figured things would just go so swimmingly, so quickly, that we'd all just mindlessly fall in line behind them. That's not how it works, guys. You have to prove yourselves. Bit by bit. Over time. You haven't.

Second, that their national priorities are shared by everyone else. Wrong again. You point to the stock market and unemployment as the reasons we should all fall in line. That shows you don't understand that a growing number of people have different priorities. I wonder if you know what they are. You never bring them up. Would any of you like to guess?

We'll know more in eight months. But at some level, you have to know this hasn't been a rousing success so far, and the current trajectory ain't favorable. Outside of blaming someone else, you may want to examine why.
.

We have to prove ourselves over time? Dude, it's been a little over a year since Trump was sworn in as President and he's been under nonstop attack from the main stream media and you on the left ever since he beat Hillary yet he's STILL managing to accomplish much of what he promised to do when he campaigned.

You seem to think because he DIDN'T yank the entire country over to his way of looking things overnight...that he's failed! That's quite frankly one of the dumber things someone's posted on here in quite some time. Let's be honest here...there is a HUGE part of the population that will still hate Trump no matter how successful his policies are and quite a few of them will hate him MORE if he's successful! You might want to "examine" that!

What success from what policies?

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