Dems Big Push for 2014: Minimum Wage

[velvtacheeze]

Why only $15/hr....go for $20, $100, $1000.....

Why are liberals such low aimers.....ask for $1,000,000/hr.

Why not debate the amount that is actually being proposed by liberals, instead of demanding that we should be asking for unrealistic and unaffordable increases?

The answer to your stupid, unconvincing right wing talking point is obvious: Because $15 is affordable, and the higher amounts you mention are not.

And Obama hasn't even proposed $15. He proposed just over $10 an hour, and proposed that it be phased in slowly.

 

[dblack]

I'm not offering any. I'm willing to take your word for it. If you're right, if there are no negative consequences, why not do it more? Have you thought about it?

Ok then, since there are no negative consequences, lets carry on with this increase in minimum wage...

How's this, when a bill comes up proposing a $30/hr minimum wage, you let me know.

If it came up, would you support it?

I really would like to find a MW advocate willing to answer this question. The most sensible answer I've heard is that small increases in the minimum wage have only a small negative impact on the economy and that the benefit they provide to low income workers is worth the cost of that negative impact. I don't agree (that it's worth it), but at least that argument is rational.

What I don't get is the people who claim that government dictating wages has no negative repercussions, but are still only advocating for token increase. If making everyone better off is really just a matter of mandating higher minimum wages, why not do something substantial? What is holding you back?

 

[The Rabbi]

Why only $15/hr....go for $20, $100, $1000.....

Why are liberals such low aimers.....ask for $1,000,000/hr.

Why not debate the amount that is actually being proposed by liberals, instead of demanding that we should be asking for unrealistic and unaffordable increases?

The answer to your stupid, unconvincing right wing talking point is obvious: Because $15 is affordable, and the higher amounts you mention are not.

And Obama hasn't even proposed $15. He proposed just over $10 an hour, and proposed that it be phased in slowly.

Because sometimes it takes driving things to their logical conclusion to see the absurdity of it. Sure, $10 sounds reasonable. But if the argument is it will raise wages for everyone then why stop at 10? Wouldn't 15, 20, or 50 do it even more?
When presented that way we see that raising the min wage to 50 would result in much less employment, as no one would hire someone to wash cars for $50/hr. The same thing happens at $10/hr. Fewer jobs, less overall wages.
See how that works? Probably not.

 

[The Rabbi]

Ok then, since there are no negative consequences, lets carry on with this increase in minimum wage...

How's this, when a bill comes up proposing a $30/hr minimum wage, you let me know.

If it came up, would you support it?

I really would like to find a MW advocate willing to answer this question. The most sensible answer I've heard is that small increases in the minimum wage have only a small negative impact on the economy and that the benefit they provide to low income workers is worth the cost of that negative impact. I don't agree (that it's worth it), but at least that argument is rational.

What I don't get is the people who claim that government dictating wages has no negative repercussions, but are still only advocating for token increase. If making everyone better off is really just a matter of mandating higher minimum wages, why not do something substantial? What is holding you back?

The first argument appears to make sense. But in fact the benefit to a few workers, which is discernible, is outweighed by the penalty to many workers, which is not seen. This is Bastiat's classic what is not seen. It is the same phenomenon we see with unions. Yes, they increase wages and benefits for those in unions. But the decrease wages and benefits for those outside of unions. It is like making a moat and drawing up the bridge, leaving the less fortunate to the alligators. Which is what Democrats are all about anyway.

 

[BlackSand]

Anything to deflect from Obamacare.

It isn't so much a deflection as an add on ...

It is just a pay-off for the votes desired.
If the Democrats take a hit from the ACA ... It is nothing buying votes with a minimum wage increase won't fix.

As long as the Liberals can use the treasury as campaign funding they will be hard to beat.
When they become successful at using policy such as minimum wage requirements for campaign funding they will become invincible.

The humorous part is how many people see it as something other than what it is.
It is only funny because being pissed or sad about it won't change anything.
If any of it worries you ... You better be making plans for the crap it will all turn in to ... And stop thinking it will ever turn around.

.

 

[LeftofLeft]

Since the 'free market' isn't helping increase living standards among most Americans, time for the state to step in and better allocate incomes. No, not everyone should earn the same amount. But the bottom need to have their wages upped, and it should be tied to inflation going forward, to keep companies's from abusing their lowest paid.

If this means that the upper income employees earn less, I'm okay with that.

You are a Socialist. I am a Capitalist. You are advocating redistribution. The Free Market increases living standards among most Americans in the absence of or reduction of the following:

1) Highest Corporate Taxes in The World
2) Government Regulations vs. Government Regulations in China, Russia, India
3) Unlimited Legal Liability

You keep talking about "allocation". How is that working out for other countries? Why should we mirror them?

 

[Chris]

From 1941 to the 1960's we had high taxes on the rich and high wages. The taxes were invested in education and infrastructure and the high wages created consumer demand. Now we have low taxes for the rich and low wages. What is the result? 23% of total income goes to the top 1%. 70% of our economy is consumer demand. Too much money in too few hands starves the economy of demand. Stagnation is the result.

Raise the minimum wage and tax capital gains as income.

" We're going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory some of those loophole were understandable, but in practice, they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing."
~ Ronald Reagan

 

[velvtacheeze]

Why only $15/hr....go for $20, $100, $1000.....

Why are liberals such low aimers.....ask for $1,000,000/hr.

Why not debate the amount that is actually being proposed by liberals, instead of demanding that we should be asking for unrealistic and unaffordable increases?

The answer to your stupid, unconvincing right wing talking point is obvious: Because $15 is affordable, and the higher amounts you mention are not.

And Obama hasn't even proposed $15. He proposed just over $10 an hour, and proposed that it be phased in slowly.

Because sometimes it takes driving things to their logical conclusion to see the absurdity of it. Sure, $10 sounds reasonable. But if the argument is it will raise wages for everyone then why stop at 10? Wouldn't 15, 20, or 50 do it even more?
When presented that way we see that raising the min wage to 50 would result in much less employment, as no one would hire someone to wash cars for $50/hr. The same thing happens at $10/hr. Fewer jobs, less overall wages.
See how that works? Probably not.

No one is arguing for a $50 min wage. Quit making arguments against proposals that no one is making.

Businesses can afford a $10 min. Many do now. The rest of the abusive businesses need to have it imposed on them.

 

[dblack]

Why only $15/hr....go for $20, $100, $1000.....

Why are liberals such low aimers.....ask for $1,000,000/hr.

Why not debate the amount that is actually being proposed by liberals, instead of demanding that we should be asking for unrealistic and unaffordable increases?

The answer to your stupid, unconvincing right wing talking point is obvious: Because $15 is affordable, and the higher amounts you mention are not.

And Obama hasn't even proposed $15. He proposed just over $10 an hour, and proposed that it be phased in slowly.

I can't speak for everyone else here, but I'm just trying to understand your reasoning. If raising the minimum wage doesn't have any drawbacks (which is the claim some advocates are making) then there's no good reason to hold back, we should crank it up to the point where everyone makes a decent living. But you seem to be suggesting there is a cost associated with raising the minimum wage (by your acknowledgement that we couldn't afford higher raises). If raising the minimum wage doesn't cost us anything, why is a small raise 'affordable', but a larger one is not?

I guess presumption of the advocates for MW is that business owners, and wealthy people in general, make relatively arbitrary choices about how much profit they 'take' from their businesses. And since they make more than they 'need', it's simply a matter of reducing they're own cut and giving more to their employees. This goes along with their notion that most economic problems are caused by 'greed'.

But that's a fundamentally flawed assessment and completely ignores any sober economic analysis. Bottom tier jobs don't pay much because people don't value them much, period. Simply assigning a higher baseline won't change how we value those jobs relative to others, and after a short period of adjustment, the real earning power of those jobs will be the same. In the mean time, all you're doing is creating barriers to employment by telling people who can't convince an employer that they're worth the artificially inflated wages, that they aren't allowed to work.

 

[velvtacheeze]

I fully acknowledge that increasing the min wage will add costs to businesses. I reject the description of the costs as "drawbacks". They are affordable, and whatever pain it causes to owners and bosses will be minimal compared to the benefits it provides to the workers.

Conservatives keep making the stupid mistake of thinking liberals believe that min wage increases are cost free. What we really believe is that the costs are worth it. And liberals are unsympathetic to all the whining and caterwauling from businesses about paying more for their labor. They've been going full bore poopy diaper about the min wage since it was first implemented. Seriously. Sooooo sick of the anti-min wage pity party.

Why don't we argue for much higher wages? Why not $20 or $50 an hour? Because, stupid, the costs to businesses would be too high at those levels. But the $10.10 that the White House is supporting would not be too high.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Since the 'free market' isn't helping increase living standards among most Americans, time for the state to step in and better allocate incomes. No, not everyone should earn the same amount. But the bottom need to have their wages upped, and it should be tied to inflation going forward, to keep companies's from abusing their lowest paid.

If this means that the upper income employees earn less, I'm okay with that.

Are you ok with government telling you how to make a living? Because that's what you're asking for.

Yes. Yes I am. I'm totally okay with government, whose representatives are chosen by the people, telling business how they will be run.

Great...France is run this way....Au revior

 

[thereisnospoon]

Dems are not very smart then Boop if that is indeed their plan for the new years agenda.

Employment for the young is still terribly hard to find and increasing the minimum wage will only serve to make those stats worse. Add the new burden of raising their wages along with the upcoming mandate for businesses of the ACA and you have a recipe for disaster.

Give Sally or Timmy a big raise then cut their hours to compensate for the lost revenue then fire them completely if possible to avoid the ACA.

Logic seems to be completely void in the Democratic party.

Yes! Sally and Timmy have traditionally been liable for their own health care. You have made an excellent point.

So?

 

[thereisnospoon]

I fully acknowledge that increasing the min wage will add costs to businesses. I reject the description of the costs as "drawbacks". They are affordable, and whatever pain it causes to owners and bosses will be minimal compared to the benefits it provides to the workers.

Conservatives keep making the stupid mistake of thinking liberals believe that min wage increases are cost free. What we really believe is that the costs are worth it. And liberals are unsympathetic to all the whining and caterwauling from businesses about paying more for their labor. They've been going full bore poopy diaper about the min wage since it was first implemented. Seriously. Sooooo sick of the anti-min wage pity party.

Why don't we argue for much higher wages? Why not $20 or $50 an hour? Because, stupid, the costs to businesses would be too high at those levels. But the $10.10 that the White House is supporting would not be too high.

"10.10 would not be too high"..
And by your understanding of business and economics, you know this, correct?
You are either a current or former owner of a small business?
You have at least an Associate degree in business, correct?

 

[BlackSand]

Conservatives keep making the stupid mistake of thinking liberals believe that min wage increases are cost free. What we really believe is that the costs are worth it. And liberals are unsympathetic to all the whining and caterwauling from businesses about paying more for their labor. They've been going full bore poopy diaper about the min wage since it was first implemented. Seriously. Sooooo sick of the anti-min wage pity party.

I understand what you are saying ... And as a Conservative I can let you know that I in no way think that Liberals don't understand an increase in minimum wage is an increase in costs.
That is why I am not going to have a problem passing the cost on to you and other Liberal consumers ... So that you can better understand how business works and how costs are paid for.

The only problem Liberals have ever had is centered on their desire to spend someone else's money ... And I will be more than willing to help them spend their own money.
I am sure some businesses will suffer from a minimum wage increase ... But oh well, that's business.

.

 

[BobPlumb]

Conservatives keep making the stupid mistake of thinking liberals believe that min wage increases are cost free. What we really believe is that the costs are worth it. And liberals are unsympathetic to all the whining and caterwauling from businesses about paying more for their labor. They've been going full bore poopy diaper about the min wage since it was first implemented. Seriously. Sooooo sick of the anti-min wage pity party.

I understand what you are saying ... And as a Conservative I can let you know that I in no way think that Liberals don't understand an increase in minimum wage is an increase in costs.
That is why I am not going to have a problem passing the cost on to you and other Liberal consumers ... So that you can better understand how business works and how costs are paid for.

The only problem Liberals have ever had is centered on their desire to spend someone else's money ... And I will be more than willing to help them spend their own money.
I am sure some businesses will suffer from a minimum wage increase ... But oh well, that's business.

.

And once prices go up because wages have gone up, what will be the net benifit?

 

[thereisnospoon]

conservatives keep making the stupid mistake of thinking liberals believe that min wage increases are cost free. What we really believe is that the costs are worth it. And liberals are unsympathetic to all the whining and caterwauling from businesses about paying more for their labor. They've been going full bore poopy diaper about the min wage since it was first implemented. Seriously. Sooooo sick of the anti-min wage pity party.

i understand what you are saying ... And as a conservative i can let you know that i in no way think that liberals don't understand an increase in minimum wage is an increase in costs.
That is why i am not going to have a problem passing the cost on to you and other liberal consumers ... So that you can better understand how business works and how costs are paid for.

The only problem liberals have ever had is centered on their desire to spend someone else's money ... And i will be more than willing to help them spend their own money.
I am sure some businesses will suffer from a minimum wage increase ... But oh well, that's business.

.

and once prices go up because wages have gone up, what will be the net benifit?

zero.

 

[Iceman]

Conservatives keep making the stupid mistake of thinking liberals believe that min wage increases are cost free. What we really believe is that the costs are worth it. And liberals are unsympathetic to all the whining and caterwauling from businesses about paying more for their labor. They've been going full bore poopy diaper about the min wage since it was first implemented. Seriously. Sooooo sick of the anti-min wage pity party.

I understand what you are saying ... And as a Conservative I can let you know that I in no way think that Liberals don't understand an increase in minimum wage is an increase in costs.
That is why I am not going to have a problem passing the cost on to you and other Liberal consumers ... So that you can better understand how business works and how costs are paid for.

The only problem Liberals have ever had is centered on their desire to spend someone else's money ... And I will be more than willing to help them spend their own money.
I am sure some businesses will suffer from a minimum wage increase ... But oh well, that's business.

.

And once prices go up because wages have gone up, what will be the net benifit?

What do you mean by "prices"? The CPI?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Pretty smart move if the DEMS are willing to play the long game with it. The nation is ready for a higher FMW. The basic lie about it is that it will raise prices. Prices are rising anyway without the added benefit of additional pay for the workers so, at least, this will include that benefit.

Again, when you have a consumer based economy and wages for the consumers remain flat, you're going to have some economic problems since your engine isn't getting any fuel. At the very least, this will be fuel for the engine. I doubt the engine will go very far at the outset because a lot of the new monies will go toward debt reduction but after that, you'll see some real growth.

At the very least, this will be fuel for the engine.

Higher wages without higher production are not fuel for anything.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

So, naturally, you can show where jobs were "killed" when the minimum wage has been raised in the past?

JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

Facts have a conservative bias.

No, actually they don't.

Raising the minimum wage had no discernible effect on employment or unemployment.

As for teenage employment or unemployment, I'd fully support a graduated minimum wage like they do in Australia.

If we want wages to rise for our low skilled workers, we should stop importing millions of low skilled workers.

 

[Lumpy 1]

Conservatives keep making the stupid mistake of thinking liberals believe that min wage increases are cost free. What we really believe is that the costs are worth it. And liberals are unsympathetic to all the whining and caterwauling from businesses about paying more for their labor. They've been going full bore poopy diaper about the min wage since it was first implemented. Seriously. Sooooo sick of the anti-min wage pity party.

I understand what you are saying ... And as a Conservative I can let you know that I in no way think that Liberals don't understand an increase in minimum wage is an increase in costs.
That is why I am not going to have a problem passing the cost on to you and other Liberal consumers ... So that you can better understand how business works and how costs are paid for.

The only problem Liberals have ever had is centered on their desire to spend someone else's money ... And I will be more than willing to help them spend their own money.
I am sure some businesses will suffer from a minimum wage increase ... But oh well, that's business.

.

All the Democrats money goes to electing Dem. dimwits