Dems, don't let Repubs bamboozle you, America IS a democracy.

[jc456]

why it matters"

our system is designed for consensus of the governed, through elections. it is neither the democracy attributed to athens or the republic of pre augustinian rome.

our challenge is not to name and thereby constrain, but to use what authority we have to solve emerging problems while minimizing unintended consequences.

i have a thread in general disc. about mob rule. want a link?

Well our laws are based of representatives from the 50 states. It isn't done by popular vote. Help you at all?

 

[Cellblock2429]

I guess if that's how you define "democracy". But there are plenty of other definitions that provide protections for the minority and otherwise mitigate mob rule.

This is just another one of those retard arguments with one side simply contradicting the other for no apparent reason: "White is black! -- NO! Black is white!!!"

There is an interesting question here, namely how much of our society should be controlled by majority rule - ie how much democracy do we actually want? And why?

But let's get back to the normally scheduled shouting match over definitions. It's much easier than real discussion.

/——/ “White is black! -- NO! Black is white!!!"
You mean like calling Hispanics White?

Latinos Can Be White Supremacists

A mass shooting carried out by a Hispanic suspect who authorities said had “neo-Nazi ideation” caused some confusion. It shouldn’t have.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[dblack]

/——/ “White is black! -- NO! Black is white!!!"
You mean like calling Hispanics White?

No. I mean like partisan idiots in a mutual jerkoff session.

 

[Theowl32]

{Caveat: those who are weaned on soundbites, one liners and snarky quips, who have subsequent short attention spans, ignore this post]

This trope has been floundering around the conservative/libertarian circles on the right for some time now, and now Trump
has joined the *RNAD regurgitators.

*Republic, Not A Democracy.

Some Republicans claim that 'proof' is in the pledge: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands..."

Uh, no...I'm sorry to inform you on the right, especially republicans, but "Republic", "Constitutional Republic", "Democracy", "Liberal Democracy", "Western Democracy", etc., these are NOT mutually exclusive terms. I know you think they are, but no, they aren't. They are general terms for basically the same principle, that a Democracy, using the broadest sense of the term, which is the most common use of the term, means a nation of liberty, where free speech, freedom of assembly, everyone of age has the vote, and other assorted virtues, prevail, as opposed to a monarchy or dictatorship or totalitarian non democratic nations.


To wit:

...[a] fundamental maxim of republican government...requires that the sense of the majority should prevail. --Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #22

When Madison/Hamilton (i.e., "Publius") was making a distinction between 'Democracy' and 'Republic', favoring a Republic, he wasn't dissing 'Democracy' in the general sense, he/they were using the term in parochial sense, he was making a distinction between a government where laws are voted on by the electorate, a direct democracy, and one that has laws enacted by a Republic consisting of representative body, each of whose members are elected by popular vote. In America, this is the House of Representatives, Congress, and The Senate, i.e., our bicameral legislature which includes the Vice President when a tie vote needs to be broken. They weren't using the term as it has been used in academia, journalism and public spheres as it has ben used for a very long time.
Now, just in case some of you on the right assert that my Fed #22 quote is out of context, but no, because the meat of the statement stands alone and the context it was written in doesn't really change that fact, so context wasn't necessary.

And what was that context? Hamilton was actually arguing that the principle of equal suffrage between states of different sizes (of populations) contradicts the principle that it is a maxim of a republican form of government that the majority should prevail. Because he was arguing in favor of that principle, the principle, as a principle, it therefore stands alone --not to mention that he states that contrary arguments are 'sophistry'. Clearly, Hamilton favors that the majority should prevail in elections. This IS democracy.

Note that, as any encyclopedia will define, the term 'Republic', is a broad term, and is merely any government that is not a monarchy, where the leaders are either voted in OR appointed. also note that all elections, yes, the many thousands of them from local municipalities on up, excluding only the Vice Pres. and President, are voted via direct democracy. Thus only the VP and the Prez are voted via the EC. (Of course, laws are enacted via the legislature and the Prez but we do have laws, known as 'ballot initiatives' enacted by direct vote in many states). So, we can rightfully state that the vast majority of elections in the United States are done via direct democracy.

There are all types of Republics; there are Constitutional Republics (AKA Democratic Republics aligned with a Constitution) , Islamic Republics, There are Socialist Republics, Calvinist Republics, and so on. But, listening to any Republican, (of late) they will assert that a 'Republic" and a "Democracy' are not the same thing. Let's be clear on this point, A Republic may not include a democracy but a democracy is just about always a Republic, and so, most of the time, these days, when we say 'Republic' we are thinking of a democracy of a certain type, which is defined by whatever charter the Republic is aligned with and usually that is a representative democracy of some kind.

America is a Constitutional [Federal] Republic, AKA "Representative Democracy: AKA "Liberal Democracy" AKA "Western Democracy", noting that Representative Democracy refers to the House of Representatives, and not so much the Electoral College. If we didn't have an EC, America would still be a representative democracy. A number of western democracies, or rather, most of them, elect their president by direct, majority vote, yet are still known as 'representative democracies' precisely because of the fact that they have, like that of the US, an elected body of representatives who propose legislation on behalf of constituents. Now, if anyone is going to claim otherwise, no, I don't buy it, because I've learned this since middle school, read it everywhere I've ever read about politics, heard it spoken on the tongues of pundits, academicians, and leaders of every type since I was a teenager interested in the subject --- we were taught, without exception, "America is a Democracy", and "Democracy is core value in America".

I mean, this stupid RNAD thing, well, it's getting out of hand, and I can clearly see what is driving it: IN FACT, this idea that 'America is not a Democracy' became popular with Republicans right about the time they started losing the popular vote. Gee, what a coincidence, it seems they need to dis democracy in order to feel about about their winning the presidency via a particular fluke in the electoral college system. And don't tell me that not winning the popular vote doesn't bother Republicans. I know it really annoys Trump which is why he lied when he said that he would have won the popular vote had not 3 million illegals voted (in the 2016 election, which was a lie). No, y'all would definitely prefer to win the popular vote. Don't tell me otherwise, I just don't believe you.

It's really gotten a lot of traction now, the RNAD myth, given that in the last few decades Republicans are not winning the popular vote, so now they're trying to poo poo democracy, and doing a lot to diminish it, as a matter of fact, and this trope allows them to feel good about doing it. Republics don't like democracy given that of late, it appears that Democracy doesn't like Republicans. Well, they are bringing it on themselves.

Well, I got bad news for Republicans, either you have a democracy or Fascism. It's one or the other and you really need to decide which side you are on. You can move towards one, and when you do, you are moving away from the other, and that, in my view, describes Trumpism, a move away from democracy towards fascism. The Lincoln Repubs recognize this and have rejected Trumpism hence the "Lincoln Project".

America is all about elections. We have local elections in every municipality in America, thousands of them. We have elections in every state for various state level positions form Governor on down. And then we have elections for the House and the Senate, and finally, The President and Vice president via the electoral college. All sorts of elections, so don't tell me, those of you on the right, and Republicans, that America is "not" a democracy because the BS meter is redlining......

View attachment 772373

Any country that has as many elections as America has is a democracy. No, that it's a 'representative democracy' doesn't alter the statement. Remember, the term 'Democracy' has both broad and parochial usages.

The Trumpist claim that we're 'a republic, not a democracy' is even more dangerous than it sounds

Trumpist Republicans are lately in the habit of repeating this doozy of a notion that the United States of America is “a republic, not a democracy” (RNAD). Often, this comes as a response to ...

www.dailykos.com

Trumpist Republicans are lately in the habit of repeating this doozy of a notion that the United States of America is “a republic, not a democracy” (RNAD). Often, this comes as a response to statements like, “Trumpism is a threat to democracy!” While your first reaction might have been, “Huh?” or, “Are these stone-cold nincompoops out of their ever-loving minds?” the refrain remains a consistent rebuttal from the extreme right.

Responding to RNAD requires understanding what right-wing extremists mean when they say “a republic, not a democracy.” It means they don’t care about democracy. This line of argument provides an ideological justification for some of the most extreme actions being taken by members of the MAGAsphere—actions aimed at thwarting American democracy itself.

BINGO!

A democracy is often a term referring to....

1. A nation where citizens enjoy rights.
2. A nation where citizens enjoy certain freedoms, of speech, free assembly, freedom to work, be self-employed, to achieve one's aims, etc.
3. Freedom of religion, or freedom from religion
4. The right to vote once one is 18.
5. A nation with a government of elected leaders, either directly or indirectly.
6. A Republic, Federal, Constitutional, or otherwise, which is, essentially, a government of elected leaders, indirectly or directly, whose legislation is enacted by the elected representatives constituting a 'representative democracy' generally under the governance of a constitution.

Definition of republic

1a(1): a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president
(2): a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government
b(1): a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law
(2): a political unit (such as a nation) having such a form of government

View attachment 772394

AKA 'representative democracy' AKA 'liberal democracies' AKA 'western democracies' AKA or just 'democracy'.

‘America Is a Republic, Not a Democracy’ Is a Dangerous—And Wrong—Argument

Enabling sustained minority rule at the national level is not a feature of our constitutional design, but a perversion of it.

www.theatlantic.com

‘America Is a Republic, Not a Democracy’ Is a Dangerous—And Wrong—Argument
Enabling sustained minority rule at the national level is not a feature of our constitutional design, but a perversion of it.


And it so states right on the Government's own website:

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/lesson-plans/Government_and_You_handouts.pdf

Democracy in the United States.

The United States is a representative democracy. This means that our government is elected by citizens. Here, citizens vote for their government officials. These officials represent the citizens’ ideas and concerns in government. Voting is one way to participate in our democracy. Citizens can also contact their officials when they want to support or change a law. Voting in an election and contacting our elected officials are two ways that Americans can participate in their democracy.

Democrats, do not let Republicans bamboozle anyone on this point, America IS a democracy. Yes, there are times when it might be in doubt, but in principle, though our democracy is far from perfect, so with all of it's flaws, America is a Democracy.

Loser

Proof that this country WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO BE A DEMOCRACY.

These people vote.

Wonder why the word doesn't appear in the Constitution nor Declaration of Independence? No?


This where they will go to their Identity politics.

They are such predictable pathetic sheep of their globalist overlords.

Here is a quick lesson about the problems with democracy as told by Socrates who was against the notion. He was PROVEN % correct.

They all turn into a demogoguery every time.




Learn a lesson. Trump even calls us a democracy. He is ignorant about a bit and that's one of those things.

 

[OKTexas]

Do we vote?

Yes.

A country that has the vote where the vote is legit is a democracy.

And is also a republic, they are not mutually exclusive terms.

The ONLY reason hard core repubs (not old school repubs) harp on this is because they haven't won the majority in prez elections in 30 fucking years.

Some can argue we are not a very good democracy, and they have a point, but that is not the point.

I rest my case.

Deal with it.

Once again, in this country, democracy ends at the State lines. All elections occur at the State level. Period end of story.

.

 

[Rumpole]

Once again, in this country, democracy ends at the State lines. All elections occur at the State level. Period end of story.

.

I'll file that in the distinction without a difference file.

"Democracy' is a descriptive term. America is a democracy, that's a description of America, it is a high minded idea, almost poetic. it does not conflict with the idea that AMerica is a democratic republic, nor a constitutional republic, a representative democracy, all terms used more or less interchangeably. Why is it that you guys refuse to acknowledge this?

Why? I'll tell you why.

Because Republicans are trying to destroy that idea because they can't handle the fact that they haven't won the hearts and minds, the will of the electorate, what, once in 30 something years, so they need to destroy that idea in order to feel good about themselves. See, before a couple of decades ago, never in my life did any republican anywhere not refer to 'American democracy'. Oh, we all criticized it to death as it is wholly imperfect, but it's still a democracy, nevertheless.

 

[Rumpole]

Loser

Proof that this country WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO BE A DEMOCRACY.

These people vote.

Wonder why the word doesn't appear in the Constitution nor Declaration of Independence? No?


This where they will go to their Identity politics.

They are such predictable pathetic sheep of their globalist overlords.

Here is a quick lesson about the problems with democracy as told by Socrates who was against the notion. He was PROVEN % correct.

They all turn into a demogoguery every time.




Learn a lesson. Trump even calls us a democracy. He is ignorant about a bit and that's one of those things.

because the term 'Republic' is more of a document term, legal term, where 'democracy' is more of a descriptive, poetic term. But they are used interchangeably, and have been, for millennia. Socrates didn't like Athenian democracy, where anyone could challenge anyone, and there were no controls over the vote like we have in America, such as a bicameral legislature, a house of representatives, an EC, etc. I addressed these points in the OP, please reread it..

Madison's usage of the term 'democracy' was in it's most narrow sense, but the fact is, his contemporaries objected to his narrow use of the term, because, in point of fact, it means a lot more than just 'direct voting'. For a nation to be a democracy, it must have, in place, a number of high minded ideals, such as:

• Universal Suffrage: All citizens have the right to vote in free and fair elections.
• Regular Elections: There are periodic elections held to elect representatives and/or leaders.
• Political Pluralism: There is more than one political party or group competing in elections, offering voters different choices.
• Civil Liberties: Citizens enjoy fundamental rights and freedoms such as freedom of speech, assembly, press, and religion.
• Rule of Law: The government and its officials are bound by the law, and no one is above the law.
• Separation of Powers: There is a division of governmental responsibilities among different branches (executive, legislative, and judicial), each with separate powers and duties.
• Checks and Balances: Each branch of government has some measure of influence over the other branches to prevent any one branch from becoming too powerful.
• Civilian Control of the Military: The military is subject to civilian authority and does not play a direct role in government decision-making.
• Independent Judiciary: The judiciary operates independently from the executive and legislative branches, ensuring impartial adjudication of disputes.
• Protection of Minority Rights: Minority groups are protected from discrimination and have equal rights under the law.
• Freedom of Information: There is transparency in government operations, and citizens have access to information about government activities.
• Responsive Government: The government is accountable to the people and responds to their needs and concerns.

This is why Madison's contemporaries resisted his narrow use of the term, because the term means a lot more than just how Athenians voted.

Democracy - Representation, Equality, Participation

Democracy - Representation, Equality, Participation: Is democracy the most appropriate name for a large-scale representative system such as that of the early United States? At the end of the 18th century, the history of the terms whose literal meaning is “rule by the people”—democracy and...

www.britannica.com

Even among his contemporaries, Madison’s refusal to apply the term democracy to representative governments, even those based on broad electorates, was aberrant.

 

[Theowl32]

because the term 'Republic' is more of a document term, legal term, where 'democracy' is more of a descriptive, poetic term. But they are used interchangeably, and have been, for millennia. Socrates didn't like Athenian democracy, where anyone could challenge anyone, and there were no controls over the vote like we have in America, such as a bicameral legislature, a house of representatives, an EC, etc. I addressed these points in the OP, please reread it..

No, VOTING ISNT SUPPOSED TO BE A RIGHT. WASNT IN THE BILL OF RIGHTS FOR REASON

RIGHT WHEN YOU GIVE EVERYONE WITH A PULSE THE "RIGHT TO VOTE" PEOPLE l, THEY CAN BE AND ARE HERDED BY GROUPS.

That's DEMOGOGUERY.

Since we have been under the false notion and led to believe voting ISNT A PARTICULAR SKILL, we are doomed.

We have a bunch of sheep that are nothing short of walking tropes and campaign slogans.

How many damn promises of REPARATIONS do you think THOSE PEOPLE will fall for before they realize they have been played like a 3 dollar Banjo by the same party that enslaved them in the first place?

Chicago hasn't had a republican mayor since 1931 and that city along with every other crime ridden shithole haven't had a Republican mayor in decades.

Ahhhh, but the fundraisers and fake concerns. Fools

 

[Rumpole]

well, i had hoped it had something to do with the old baily as on the pbs show. but i like the trap idea.

Oh yes, you are correct, I'm a big fan of Rumpole of the Bailey, so, that, too. You'll notice my avatar has his photo. Leo McKern. Interesting fact, his daughter was a lawyer in the Old Bailey (on the TV show), in a number of the episodes.

 

[Rumpole]

/——/ Rumpole isn’t as accurate as calling you Asshole. I was trying to be polite., but if you insist, RUMPHOLE.

Thank you for proving my point. Nitwits of your ilk just can't help themselves, no matter how hard they try.

 

[Rumpole]

Why is this question important?

What are the implications of the label?

What do we lose if the "other side" gets their way? ie what changes if we call our nation a "democracy" or don't?

Why are you all banging foreheads on this?

You don't see it, eh?

It's like this.

Republicans have won the popular vote once on the last 30 something years.

After about 10 years of losing, they get the idea that America is not a democracy. It's become a meme on internet debate forums in the last decade or two or so. They cling to this idea in order to feel good about losing so much. So, when someone says, 'you guys never won the popular vote', they say to themselves, 'well America is not a democracy, anyway, and 'majority rule = mob rule' in order to feel good about themselves, nevermind the fact that 'mob rule' never meant 'minority rule' in any of the fed papers.

that is the whole point,. to disabuse hard core republicans of this myth, because old school republicans never mentioned it. Bill Buckley never said it, nor Nixon, nor Ford, nor Reagan, etc. Only idiots like mark levin, and the hard core types have made a thing of it.

 

[Rumpole]

No, VOTING ISNT SUPPOSED TO BE A RIGHT. WASNT IN THE BILL OF RIGHTS FOR REASON

RIGHT WHEN YOU GIVE EVERYONE WITH A PULSE THE "RIGHT TO VOTE" PEOPLE l, THEY CAN BE AND ARE HERDED BY GROUPS.

That's DEMOGOGUERY.

Since we have been under the false notion and led to believe voting ISNT A PARTICULAR SKILL, we are doomed.

We have a bunch of sheep that are nothing short of walking tropes and campaign slogans.

How many damn promises of REPARATIONS do you think THOSE PEOPLE will fall for before they realize they have been played like a 3 dollar Banjo by the same party that enslaved them in the first place?

Chicago hasn't had a republican mayor since 1931 and that city along with every other crime ridden shithole haven't had a Republican mayor in decades.

Ahhhh, but the fundraisers and fake concerns. Fools

You missed the entire point of the thread, try rereading the OP.

 

[OKTexas]

I'll file that in the distinction without a difference file.

"Democracy' is a descriptive term. America is a democracy, that's a description of America, it is a high minded idea, almost poetic. it does not conflict with the idea that AMerica is a democratic republic, nor a constitutional republic, a representative democracy, all terms used more or less interchangeably. Why is it that you guys refuse to acknowledge this?

Why? I'll tell you why.

Because Republicans are trying to destroy that idea because they can't handle the fact that they haven't won the hearts and minds, the will of the electorate, what, once in 30 something years, so they need to destroy that idea in order to feel good about themselves. See, before a couple of decades ago, never in my life did any republican anywhere not refer to 'American democracy'. Oh, we all criticized it to death as it is wholly imperfect, but it's still a democracy, nevertheless.

Yeah, elections are tuff when one party spends tens of billions, of taxpayer money, buying votes. Like the founders said, when voters realize they can vote themselves monies from the treasury, this country is domed. Thanks commies.

.

 

[Theowl32]

You missed the entire point of the thread, try rereading the OP.

Did you listen to Socrates's point and using the example of the two candidates? One being LIKENED to a sweetshop owner and the other candidate to a doctor? His claim and prediction within a democracy style of govt where everyone has the RIGHT TO VOTE will be very susceptible to the false promises from the sweetshop owner candidate by promises and PERCEPTIONS of free feasts for the people while also accusing his opponent of him hurting the people with his potions and tools?


Did you listen to it?

With an educated guess try and answer why the word democracy doesn't appear in the Constitution.

With an educated guess try and guess why the founding fathers didn't put voting into the bill of rights since it is such a vital aspect of a "democracy ."

Now, with that educated guess try not using the race card and identity politics in attempting to explain those.

Go ahead, I'm waiting.

 

[dblack]

You don't see it, eh?

It's like this.

Republicans have won the popular vote once on the last 30 something years.

What I see is moronic "sides" blindly talking past each other. You're fixated on the "stolen election" nonsense. But when Rs say "we're not a democracy", they aren't trying to overturn an election. They're telling you that majority rule isn't the final word. That Democrats don't get to tell everyone else how to live merely because they won an election.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Wrong.
Privacy is never mentioned in the Bill of Rights, and the SCOTUS had to remind people that most rights are NOT enumerated.

Here is when it first came up:
{...

Olmstead v. United States, 1928​

In 1928, the Supreme Court ruled that wiretaps obtained without a warrant and used as evidence in courts didn't violate the Fourth and Fifth Amendments. In his dissent, Associate Justice Louis Brandeis delivered what is by now one of the most famous assertions that privacy is indeed an individual right. The Founders said Brandeis “conferred against the government, the right to be let alone—the most comprehensive of rights and the rightmost favored by civilized men.” In his dissent, he also argued for a constitutional amendment to guarantee the right to privacy.
...}

Nope

In 1969, the Court unanimously concluded that the right of privacy protected an individual's right to possess and view pornography (including pornography that might be the basis for a criminal prosecution against its manufacturer or distributor) in his own home. Drawing support for the Court's decision from both the First and Fourth Amendments, Justice Marshall wrote in Stanley v Georgia:

The Right of Privacy: Is it Protected by the Constitution?

Cases, notes, questions, and other materials relating to the constitutional right of privacy.

law2.umkc.edu

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Show me the explicit chapter, line, quote that says the right to privacy is in the constitution.

Show me the chapter, line, quote that says the right judicial review is in the constitution.

I'll be waiting. Remember, the operative phrase is "IN THE CONSTITUTION".

Bill of rights which it seems you don't believe the bill of rights is in the constitution.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

What I see is moronic "sides" blindly talking past each other. You're fixated on the "stolen election" nonsense. But when Rs say "we're not a democracy", they aren't trying to overturn an election. They're telling you that majority rule isn't the final word. That Democrats don't get to tell everyone else how to live merely because they won an election.

We agree on this

 

[Theowl32]

You missed the entire point of the thread, try rereading the OP.

Don't want to take educated guesses? Why doesn't the word democracy appear in the Constitution nor Declaration of Independence?

Why wasn't the RIGHT TO VOTE in the BIll of rights?

Now, try making the EDUCATED GUESSES without using the race card or "IDENTITY POLITICS" card in any way.

Would you be certain that they didn't intend to have ignorant masses t be seduced by false promises where the republic would descend into a demogoguery like it has become?

Are the reparation checks on the way? Yes or no? Demogoguery.

 

[OKTexas]

Don't want to take educated guesses? Why doesn't the word democracy appear in the Constitution nor Declaration of Independence?

Why wasn't the RIGHT TO VOTE in the BIll of rights?

Now, try making the EDUCATED GUESSES without using the race card or "IDENTITY POLITICS" card in any way.

Would you be certain that they didn't intend to have ignorant masses t be seduced by false promises where the republic would descend into a demogoguery like it has become?

Are the reparation checks on the way? Yes or no? Demogoguery.

The right to vote can be found in Articles 1, 2 and modified by the 15th, 23rd, 24th and 26th Amendments. Voters were called electors in Articles 1 & 2.

.