Detroit-area community OKs animal sacrifice for Muslim religious reasons

[buttercup]

Are you a vegan?

Yes. Since 2016. Why do you ask?

 

[surada]

They DO. That's what Ed al Adha is.

Eid Al Adah is a feast/celebration that commemorates Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son out of obedience to God.

 

[surada]

Yes. For almost 7 years now. Why do you ask?

Well, slaughtering animals for food is offensive to you. Remember that God rejected Cain's offering of fruits and vegetables.

 

[protectionist]

This whole kerfluffle is just another 'grievance'-scab the denizens of RWNJ-istan like to pick at. They live a life of outrage. It's 'culture war' nonsense.

If some practitioners of a religious habit wish to kill and/or prepare and eat a lamb or gefilte fish or a goose or a rabbit in their homes/garage/basement/bathtub....and the governance of that community allows such....well, so be it. And let the grievance-burdened lives of the RWNJ/QAnon-world be outraged yet again. It'll pass.

They'll go on to another grievance they imagine exists....and they'll crank up their outrage-mojo on that. And then another. And then another.
It is the type of people they are. Unhappy ne-er-do-wells who revel in being unhappy and angry.

It seems so sad to the rest of us.

Culture war is NOT nonsense. Muslims have a culture that is strongly opposite to US culture, and they have no place being in America. It begins with Islam (the world's largest supremacism) being OUTLAWED in the US, by virtue of the Constitution, which clearly proclaims itself to be supreme, in the Supremacy Clause, Article 6, Section 2, part 1 >>>

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land ;

Islam (the Koran) further is isolated from US culture (AND LAWS) by the many US laws that Islam is, by definition, in constant violation of (murder, rape, slavery, animal cruelty, various mysogenies including wife-beating, pedophilia, and other assinine, vile things.

What is "sad" is moron liberals accepting Islam filth, because their leftist masters tell them that's what is correct, and thinking they're being smart.

 

[buttercup]

Well, slaughtering animals for food is offensive to you. Remember that God rejected Cain's offering of fruits and vegetables.

Oh, brother. God's original diet for all of creation was fruits and vegetables, read Genesis 1:29-30. And the Scriptures state that God is going to restore that Edenic world, which was His intent in the first place. So clearly the reason God didn't look with favor on Cain's offering was not because it was fruits and vegetables. It was his heart, which God knew. There's more that could be said about this, but I'm not going to take this thread off topic and turn it into a Bible study.

 

[surada]

Oh, brother. God's original diet for all of creation was fruits and vegetables, read Genesis 1:29-30. And the Scriptures state that God is going to restore that Edenic world, which was His intent in the first place. So clearly the reason God didn't look with favor on Cain's offering was not because it was fruits and vegetables. It was his heart, which God knew. There's more that could be said about this, but I'm not going to take this thread off topic and turn it into a Bible study.

God accepted Adam's offering.

 

[protectionist]

It's not a sacrifice to a diety for atonement of sin. Have you ever seen an animal slaughtered by a Muslim much less by a four year old?

I have. I had Muslim neighbors who had sheep and goats in a pasture behind my yard.
The guy bashed the poor animals head in with a large stick, while the other animals ran away. I called the cops, and the next day, 2 detectives were there talking to them. After that, they still conducted their ILLEGAL animal killings, but they moved them indoors.

 

[protectionist]

Lolol look up the definition of sacrifice.

Better yet, look up the definition of animal cruelty in the state statutes (and how much prison time you could get)

 

[jbrownson0831]

Better yet, look up the definition of animal cruelty in the state statutes (and how much prison time you could get)

No Muslim vegans, right?

 

[presonorek]

Still trying to figure out why anyone other than a vegan, or PETA would have a problem with animal sacrifice. We sacrifice 100,000 cows a day just for hamburgers.

I think the Old Testament religion should be revived and allow animal sacrifices. It's a neat little religion that has been abandoned.

 

[presonorek]

I wish people leave animals alone.....

Do you eat them?

 

[buttercup]

God accepted Adam's offering.

I think you meant to say Abel, right?

Nowhere in that passage does it mention killing, or that Abel offered a dead lamb to God. Using common sense, do you really think that a God of love would be pleased by the "gift" of a murdered lamb? Keep in mind, this was long before flesh eating was permitted - that came after the flood, and only because God gave us over to our sinful hardened hearts.

So to infer that the animal Abel presented was killed would suggest Abel was doing something contrary to what God instructed. Obviously God wouldn't be pleased by that.

When discussing that passage, first century historian Josephus wrote: “But Abel brought milk” In the phrase ‘the firstborn of the fat of his flock’ the word translated ‘fat’ in Hebrew is ֵcheleb, which is identical to the Hebrew word for ‘milk’ ָ(chalab), but with different vowels. Since vowels were not added to the Hebrew alphabet until hundreds of years after Josephus, it is likely that the original word describing Abel’s gift was milk rather than fat.

If so, then Abel presented to God a firstborn baby lamb nursing milk from the baby’s mother. That makes much more sense, for a number of reasons.

 

[Woodznutz]

That film was from May 2000 when Israel pulled out of Lebanon.

The film isn't important. The comments that I noted at the end of the article are the most telling. That the Muslim world would celebrate such an event is not only not surprising but expected.

 

[Chillicothe]

I make leg of lamb basted in strong coffee, red wine and creme fraishe. It's absolutely devine.

spell check---creme fraiche .......DIVINE. Lamb---garlic, coriander leaf and----worcester or soy sauce and HONEY.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Well, finally!!
This thread has turned informative rather than some little culture-war hissyfit.
We have experienced lamb-chefs offering recipes.
HooooYa!!

Now, so you know --- I BBQ a leg of lamb frequently enough. Maybe 7 or 8 times a year. It is a favorite patio party dish in the summer. My guests love it. At least, they say they do......but then, they DO clean up their plates.

The 'baste' - by poster 'surada'...of sour creme, coffee, and red wine is a new one to me. Really new. I WILL be experimenting with that one.
The other one, by poster 'rosie' is familiar enough tho does have some novel stuff in it that I do not often try with my lamb ---honey, worcester & soy. Though garlic is a staple, and coriander on occasion.

My go-to recipe for leg of lamb: An overnight brining in Kosher salt, brown sugar, squeezed lemon, and chopped onion, then a rub/paste of: garlic infused olive oil, mashed mint leaves, cracked mustard seeds, mustard powder, garlic, (mashed fresh cloves) rosemary, oregano, cracked pepper.
(Steve Raichlen has a similar recipe in one of his books.)

I smear that paste on the leg several hours ahead of the grill.
And then grill it all for the time needed.....internal temp of about 125'sh to 130'sh for rare. I use cherry wood on top of my charcoals to give the leg a nice reddish tone.

It is a signature dish for our summertime patio get-togethers.
Though.....I am more than willing to try other recipes.

Thank you....to poster Surada and Rosie. A hat-tip.

 

[Woodznutz]

I think you meant to say Abel, right?

Nowhere in that passage does it mention killing, or that Abel offered a dead lamb to God. Using common sense, do you really think that a God of love would be pleased by the "gift" of a murdered lamb? Keep in mind, this was long before flesh eating was permitted - that came after the flood, and only because God gave us over to our sinful hardened hearts.

So to infer that the animal Abel presented was killed would suggest Abel was doing something contrary to what God instructed. Obviously God wouldn't be pleased by that.

When discussing that passage, first century historian Josephus wrote: “But Abel brought milk” In the phrase ‘the firstborn of the fat of his flock’ the word translated ‘fat’ in Hebrew is ֵcheleb, which is identical to the Hebrew word for ‘milk’ ָ(chalab), but with different vowels. Since vowels were not added to the Hebrew alphabet until hundreds of years after Josephus, it is likely that the original word describing Abel’s gift was milk rather than fat.

If so, then Abel presented to God a firstborn baby lamb nursing milk from the baby’s mother. That makes much more sense, for a number of reasons.

The sacrificial killing of an animal was carried out by God himself when he prepared skins to cover the sin of Adam and Eve. Therefore, it is not a stretch to assume that Abel's offering was indeed a lamb.

 

[LeftofLeft]

Still trying to figure out why anyone other than a vegan, or PETA would have a problem with animal sacrifice. We sacrifice 100,000 cows a day just for hamburgers.

Good point. Yet I’m trying to figure out why PETA hasn’t lost their shit about this. Selective outrage.

 

[buttercup]

The sacrificial killing of an animal was carried out by God himself when he prepared skins to cover the nakedness of Adam and Eve. Therefore it is not a stretch that Abel's offering was indeed a lamb.

Sigh. Yet again, nowhere in the text does it say that God killed an animal to give then 'skins.' You have to add to the text to conclude that. And no offense, but I know from having similar discussions with you on other threads, that you read the scriptures through your lens of being a hunter and an avid flesh eater.

There are different views on that Genesis 3 passage, and I don't want to go through all the different interpretations, but I will say this... If we consider the pattern by which God creates in Genesis, it is by speaking things into existence or creating them from simple material. Nowhere in the creation account does God’s creative power involve killing. So I believe it makes more sense to conclude that God fashioned the 'tunics of skin' (it doesn't even say that it was animal skin, btw...the Hebrew word translated ‘skin’ עוֹר (or), does often refer to animal skin, but the majority of the time it refers to human skin) in some other way than through killing an animal, just as God created everything else mentioned to that point.

 

[Woodznutz]

Sigh. Yet again, nowhere in the text does it say that God killed an animal to give then 'skins.' You have to add to the text to conclude that. And no offense, but I know from having similar discussions with you on other threads, that you read the scriptures through your lens of being a hunter and an avid flesh eater.

There are different views on that Genesis 3 passage, and I don't want to go through all the different interpretations, but I will say this... If we consider the pattern by which God creates in Genesis, it is by speaking things into existence or creating them from simple material. Nowhere in the creation account does God’s creative power involve killing. So I believe it makes more sense to conclude that God fashioned the 'tunics of skin' (it doesn't even say that it was animal skin, btw...the Hebrew word translated ‘skin’ עוֹר (or), does at times refer to animal skin, but the majority of the time it refers to human skin) in some other way than through killing an animal, just as God created everything else mentioned to that point.

The substitutionary death of animals as atonement for sin is God's pattern, culminating in the death of Jesus. It is reasonable to believe that he sacrificed the first offering as well as the last. Without the substitutionary death of animals God would have necessarily been obligated to immediately kill Adam and Eve.

Skin as defined is that of an animal, usually leather, or that of a human. It is doubtful that God made those garments out of human skin. It is worthy of note that God presided over the deaths of billions of animals that he had created over the course of the vast prehistory of earth.

 

[buttercup]

The substitutionary killing of animals as atonement for sin is God's pattern, culminating in the death of Jesus. It is reasonable to believe that he sacrificed the first offering as well as the last.

No, that wasn't the pattern up to that point, you are talking about something that came much, much LATER.

And it's important to know that animal sacrifice was NOT God's idea. It was a common practice around the world (again, later, obviously not in the days of the Garden of Eden) and evidence shows it originated in pagan cultures, most likely Egypt. And because people were already sacrificing animals (to false gods), God enacted laws on animal sacrifice, but it was always meant to be a temporary thing, and the following scriptures make it clear that it was never something God wanted or liked.

Psalm 40:6

Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;
My ears You have opened.
Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.


Psalm 51:16-17

For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart—
These, O God, You will not despise.

Proverbs 21:3

To do righteousness and justice
Is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.

Jeremiah 7:22-24

For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.’ Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and the dictates of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.

Hosea 6:6

For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.


1 Samuel 15:22

But Samuel replied:

“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.

Isaiah 1:11-17

“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says the Lord.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle.

I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats.

“When you come to appear before Me,
Who has required this from your hand,
To trample My courts?
Bring no more futile sacrifices;
Incense is an abomination to Me.

The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
My soul hates;
They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.

When you spread out your hands,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Even though you make many prayers,
I will not hear.
Your hands are full of blood.

“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.
Cease to do evil,
Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Rebuke the oppressor;
Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow.


Micah 6:8

He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?

 

[Woodznutz]

No, that wasn't the pattern up to that point, you are talking about something that came much, much LATER.

And it's important to know that animal sacrifice was NOT God's idea. It was a common practice around the world (again, later, obviously not in the days of the Garden of Eden) and evidence shows it originated in pagan cultures, most likely Egypt. And because people were already sacrificing animals (to false gods), God enacted laws on animal sacrifice, but it was always meant to be a temporary thing, and the following scriptures make it clear that it was never something God wanted or liked.

Psalm 40:6

Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;
My ears You have opened.
Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.


Psalm 51:16-17

For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart—
These, O God, You will not despise.

Proverbs 21:3

To do righteousness and justice
Is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.

Jeremiah 7:22-24

For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.’ Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and the dictates of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.

Hosea 6:6

For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.


1 Samuel 15:22

But Samuel replied:

“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.

Isaiah 1:11-17

“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says the Lord.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle.

I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats.

“When you come to appear before Me,
Who has required this from your hand,
To trample My courts?
Bring no more futile sacrifices;
Incense is an abomination to Me.

The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
My soul hates;
They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.

When you spread out your hands,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Even though you make many prayers,
I will not hear.
Your hands are full of blood.

“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.
Cease to do evil,
Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Rebuke the oppressor;
Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow.


Micah 6:8

He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?

Of course, God didn't like it, but he required animal sacrifices up until the death of Jesus. Israel never got the message, that as long as they continued in sin such sacrifices would be necessary. It would take the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to change the heart of men. Until then Israel happily paid the fee, in animal blood, for their sins.