Do gay people have an ax to grind with Christians?

[Syriusly]

Christians are simply following the Bible's teachings. The Bible says homosexuality is an abomination unto the Lord.

Nope. The Bible says that sex between men is an abomination. Doesn't say a thing about homosexuality. Doesnt' say a thing about women having sex with women.

Wrong: It wouldn't make sense to male/male sex is wrong but not female/female sex.
Answer: Some are under the assumption that, while the Bible condemns gay sex between men, it nowhere condemns being a lesbian/lesbianism. Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 mention men having sex with other men, but say nothing of women having sex with other women. In the Sodom and Gomorrah account in Genesis 19, the men of the cities wanted to gang rape other men. First Corinthians 6:9 mentions effeminate men, very likely referring to homosexuals, but does not mention lesbians. So, does the Bible in fact condemn male homosexuality, but not lesbianism?

Romans 1:26-27 puts this invalid assumption to rest: “Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.” Clearly, this passage puts lesbianism on equal ground with male homosexuality. Lesbianism is described as women exchanging natural relations (with men) for unnatural relations (with women). According to the Bible, being a lesbian is just as sinful as being a homosexual male.

Of course practicing lesbianism is a sine but good luck getting Seriously to see that truth. I've already tried but she refuses to accept the plain truth of the Bible as do most folks who wish to continue in their sinful lifestyle choices.

LOL- faux Christians like you can't even get my gender right- let alone manage to quote the Bible.

"lesbianism' is not a sin according to the Bible- which is why it isn't mentioned as such anywhere in the Bible- not by Jesus- not in the 10 Commandments- nowhere in the Old Testament- not even by Paul- the prude who didn't care much for women.

Now according to the Bible anyone who has sex outside of marriage- along with anyone who divorces and remarries(unless the wife- and only the wife- has cheated)- is a sinner because they are engaging in adultery/fornication.

But not because it is a woman with a woman.

Two women having sex is no more of a sin in the Bible than Donald Trump having sex with his third wife.

That quote does mention women specifically. It says "EVEN their women...." I don't understand how you could arrive at the conclusion that only men are forbidden to have sex with men and women are allowed to have sex with women. .

I don't think men or women are forbidden to have sex - I am pointing out what the Bible does say- and doesn't say.
Paul never says that women are forbidden to have sex with other women- look at this quote

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV / 346 helpful votes
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Notice how Paul refers to men who practice homosexuality- but only men? Everything else in that quote is gender neutral- only when it comes to homosexuality does Paul specify that it is a sin for men- a sin like adultery- or greed- or drunkeness.

And of course- Jesus never mentions homosexuality- ever.

 

[Syriusly]

Yes I was as a matter of fact- I know Corinthians is Paul's letter's- so let me revise this for accuracy

Notice how Paul refers to men who practice homosexuality- but only men? Everything else in that quote is gender neutral- only when it comes to homosexuality does Paul specify that it is a sin for men- a sin like adultery- or greed- or drunkeness.

Ok, that's what I thought, but is always better to ask. I don't think that really matters. I was going to tell you where to look to help your cause but given the tone of some of your posts... fuck it.

My God Ding broke USMB with his Primer post- LOL

Really? This is a tiny excerpt of the New England Primer that was used in ALL schools for ALL American Children. Do I need to post the rest?

THE NEW ENGLAND PRIMER

Why do you think it was used in ALL schools for All American children? (which of course it wasn't-

More to the point though- why do you think that this primer refutes my point that much of American thinking was based upon the pagan philosophies of Democracies of Rome and Greece?

Classical works in Greek and Latin were a large part of most libraries at the time. Students leaned Latin and Greek so that they could read the classic literature that was considered an essential part of any educated persons learning.

The Academy curriculum in the 18th century, University of Pennsylvania University Archives

Did I do a no no? Opps. What rule did I break? I promise I won't do it again.

My point was that this is the book that was used for schooling all American children back when our nation was founded. Sure they learned Latin and Greek? So what? They were schooled on Christian values as part of their everyday school work..

Most children were schooled on 'Christian values'- and by 'Christian values' that meant the Puritan values of the Northern Protestants.

But not Jewish or Catholic Children.

The United States certainly was founded with a great deal of input from Christianity- and even more from pagan Rome and Greece.

Look at the proposal that Thomas Jefferson put forth on education

Every family in the district would be entitled to send their children to the school for three years, free of charge.[13][16] A family could continue sending a child after three years, but the family would have to pay for it.

These schools would teach "reading, writing, and arithmetic"; the "general notions of geography";[17] as well as Grecian, Roman, European and American history. It was important that all children learn history because "apprising them of the past will enable them to judge of the future." According to Jefferson, "the principal foundations of future order will be laid here" and "the first elements of morality too may be instilled into [the children's] minds".


Jefferson opposed providing children in these schools religious texts, since he believed the children would be "at an age when their judgments are not sufficiently matured for religious enquiries". However, he was in favor of showing the children that happiness "does not depend on the condition of life in which chance has placed them, but is always the result of a good conscience, good health, occupation, and freedom in all just pursuits."

Notice Jefferson doesn't mention teaching Jesus to children- but they did need to learn Greek and Roman history.

In middle school they would learn Greek and Latin- so they could study Homer and Tacitus.

I am not saying that Christianity was not prevalent in new United States- but it was not the only influence- and when it came to the foundation of our Country- the U.S. Constitution- it was a minor influence.

What about Alexis de Tocqueville observations that were recorded in his book, Democracy in America, a book that was used for quite some time at most universities in their polisci courses, what did you think about that? I noticed you edited that out of your reply. Why?

I think Alexis de Tocqueville made great observations on America.

And none of them takes away from my central contention- that America was founded on more than just Christian values- it was greatly influenced by pagan Roman and Greek values.

Were there many pagans and Romans in America back then? How exactly did they influence America?

Sigh.

"pagan Roman and Greek values"

If you are not wiling to respond to my actual posts- I am not sure what the point is.

 

[ding]

dingbat has an axe to grind with gays.

No. I have a problem with militant atheists like yourself. I am trying to figure out if there is a correlation between people like you and homosexuals.

Meanwhile we are trying to figure out if there is a correlation between militant Christians like you and the prejudice and abuse of homosexuals your kind have advocated for centuries.

I don't really see myself as militant. What do you see about me that makes you believe I am militant? I'm not prejudiced against homosexuals and I have never abused anyone period. I have ever called you a militant atheist? I don't do that until I know beyond a shadow of doubt that they are. .

And how do you know- and judge that?

Why do I think you are a militant Christian?

Because you seem to think that gay Americans have an axe to grind with Christian Americans.

And you haven't turned that around to ask whether Christian Americans have an axe to grind with homosexuals.

So because I asked the question that means I believe it? Isn't asking a question the way we are supposed to learn things? Sure, I had a preconceived notion that there might be a link, but not because I don't like homosexuals or because I am prejudiced against them. I thought there might be a link because of the whole gay marriage thing. So rather than make an assumption, I started asking the people who I had identified as militant atheists if they were gay. Man did they get pissed. So instead, I created this thread, and man did people get pissed. So maybe you could tell me how I should have done it differently. I think this has gone pretty well considering. The Human Being seems to have changed his tune a bit, that is progress, right? Tell me what I have written that has been offensive? The title? Which was a freaking question. Asking you if you were gay? Tell me what I should have done different. Please.

 

[Syriusly]

Satan is in the heart and minds of faux Christians.

They ignore what Jesus said- and instead like 007- preach hate- they hate homosexuals and then lie about gays.

Link to where I said I "hate homos."

I'll wait....

Link where all homosexuals hate Christians.

I'll wait.

So you can't link to where I said I hate homosexuals?

Lying loser.

Hate the sin, love the sinner.

And you can't provide the link that says that all homosexuals hate Christians- as you lied.

I have yet to see you post anything resembling love at USMB.

You're a failure and a fraud and a liar.

I requested a link from you FIRST and you FAILED, not surprisingly. You want me to defend myself, you do it first because that's how this works, moron.

You were the one who lied and posted that homosexuals hate Christians.

You have failed to prove that- and how could you- since a large portion of homosexuals are Christians themselves.

Not that gays don't have reason to hate someone like yourself who spends years attacking gays- and I am sure that some do.

But you knew you were lying when you claimed gays hate Christians and now you are just trying to dance around your false claim.

 

[ding]

Ok, that's what I thought, but is always better to ask. I don't think that really matters. I was going to tell you where to look to help your cause but given the tone of some of your posts... fuck it.
Did I do a no no? Opps. What rule did I break? I promise I won't do it again.

My point was that this is the book that was used for schooling all American children back when our nation was founded. Sure they learned Latin and Greek? So what? They were schooled on Christian values as part of their everyday school work..

Most children were schooled on 'Christian values'- and by 'Christian values' that meant the Puritan values of the Northern Protestants.

But not Jewish or Catholic Children.

The United States certainly was founded with a great deal of input from Christianity- and even more from pagan Rome and Greece.

Look at the proposal that Thomas Jefferson put forth on education

Every family in the district would be entitled to send their children to the school for three years, free of charge.[13][16] A family could continue sending a child after three years, but the family would have to pay for it.

These schools would teach "reading, writing, and arithmetic"; the "general notions of geography";[17] as well as Grecian, Roman, European and American history. It was important that all children learn history because "apprising them of the past will enable them to judge of the future." According to Jefferson, "the principal foundations of future order will be laid here" and "the first elements of morality too may be instilled into [the children's] minds".


Jefferson opposed providing children in these schools religious texts, since he believed the children would be "at an age when their judgments are not sufficiently matured for religious enquiries". However, he was in favor of showing the children that happiness "does not depend on the condition of life in which chance has placed them, but is always the result of a good conscience, good health, occupation, and freedom in all just pursuits."

Notice Jefferson doesn't mention teaching Jesus to children- but they did need to learn Greek and Roman history.

In middle school they would learn Greek and Latin- so they could study Homer and Tacitus.

I am not saying that Christianity was not prevalent in new United States- but it was not the only influence- and when it came to the foundation of our Country- the U.S. Constitution- it was a minor influence.

What about Alexis de Tocqueville observations that were recorded in his book, Democracy in America, a book that was used for quite some time at most universities in their polisci courses, what did you think about that? I noticed you edited that out of your reply. Why?

I think Alexis de Tocqueville made great observations on America.

And none of them takes away from my central contention- that America was founded on more than just Christian values- it was greatly influenced by pagan Roman and Greek values.

Were there many pagans and Romans in America back then? How exactly did they influence America?

Sigh.

"pagan Roman and Greek values"

If you are not wiling to respond to my actual posts- I am not sure what the point is.

So they learned history and you believe that informed their conscience. Never mind.

 

[Syriusly]

dingbat has an axe to grind with gays.

No. I have a problem with militant atheists like yourself. I am trying to figure out if there is a correlation between people like you and homosexuals.

Meanwhile we are trying to figure out if there is a correlation between militant Christians like you and the prejudice and abuse of homosexuals your kind have advocated for centuries.

I don't really see myself as militant. What do you see about me that makes you believe I am militant? I'm not prejudiced against homosexuals and I have never abused anyone period. I have ever called you a militant atheist? I don't do that until I know beyond a shadow of doubt that they are. .

And how do you know- and judge that?

Why do I think you are a militant Christian?

Because you seem to think that gay Americans have an axe to grind with Christian Americans.

And you haven't turned that around to ask whether Christian Americans have an axe to grind with homosexuals.

So because I asked the question that means I believe it? Isn't asking a question the way we are supposed to learn things? Sure, I had a preconceived notion that there might be a link, but not because I don't like homosexuals or because I am prejudiced against them. I thought there might be a link because of the whole gay marriage thing. So rather than make an assumption, I started asking the people who I had identified as militant atheists if they were gay. Man did they get pissed. So instead, I created this thread, and man did people get pissed. So maybe you could tell me how I should have done it differently. I think this has gone pretty well considering. The Human Being seems to have changed his tune a bit, that is progress, right? Tell me what I have written that has been offensive? The title? Which was a freaking question. Asking you if you were gay? Tell me what I should have done different. Please.

If I were to ask you this question: "Ding- have you stopped kicking puppies?" Would that just be a 'freaking question'?

If I asked the question "Do Christian people have an axe to grind with Jews" would that just be a simple question?

Why would you ask people to answer a question about an entire group? Why would you expect anyone to be able to answer for all homosexuals? Or for all Christians?

 

[Syriusly]

Most children were schooled on 'Christian values'- and by 'Christian values' that meant the Puritan values of the Northern Protestants.

But not Jewish or Catholic Children.

The United States certainly was founded with a great deal of input from Christianity- and even more from pagan Rome and Greece.

Look at the proposal that Thomas Jefferson put forth on education

Every family in the district would be entitled to send their children to the school for three years, free of charge.[13][16] A family could continue sending a child after three years, but the family would have to pay for it.

These schools would teach "reading, writing, and arithmetic"; the "general notions of geography";[17] as well as Grecian, Roman, European and American history. It was important that all children learn history because "apprising them of the past will enable them to judge of the future." According to Jefferson, "the principal foundations of future order will be laid here" and "the first elements of morality too may be instilled into [the children's] minds".


Jefferson opposed providing children in these schools religious texts, since he believed the children would be "at an age when their judgments are not sufficiently matured for religious enquiries". However, he was in favor of showing the children that happiness "does not depend on the condition of life in which chance has placed them, but is always the result of a good conscience, good health, occupation, and freedom in all just pursuits."

Notice Jefferson doesn't mention teaching Jesus to children- but they did need to learn Greek and Roman history.

In middle school they would learn Greek and Latin- so they could study Homer and Tacitus.

I am not saying that Christianity was not prevalent in new United States- but it was not the only influence- and when it came to the foundation of our Country- the U.S. Constitution- it was a minor influence.

What about Alexis de Tocqueville observations that were recorded in his book, Democracy in America, a book that was used for quite some time at most universities in their polisci courses, what did you think about that? I noticed you edited that out of your reply. Why?

I think Alexis de Tocqueville made great observations on America.

And none of them takes away from my central contention- that America was founded on more than just Christian values- it was greatly influenced by pagan Roman and Greek values.

Were there many pagans and Romans in America back then? How exactly did they influence America?

Sigh.

"pagan Roman and Greek values"

If you are not wiling to respond to my actual posts- I am not sure what the point is.

So they learned history and you believe that informed their conscience. Never mind.

No- they didn't just learn 'history' they were steeped in learning the histories of Rome and Greece- and early Democracies and Republics. Reading Plutarch and Homer was a standard for the educated person- not histories about Greece and Rome- histories written by Romans and Greeks.

Along with reading about the Magna Carta- and English history.

I have never claimed that anything formed anyone's conscience- nor do I know how you would know what formed the conscience of everyone 200 years ago.

 

[Papageorgio]

Sounds like another BS thread. Why does everyone think this world needs more dividing.

 

[ding]

No. I have a problem with militant atheists like yourself. I am trying to figure out if there is a correlation between people like you and homosexuals.

Meanwhile we are trying to figure out if there is a correlation between militant Christians like you and the prejudice and abuse of homosexuals your kind have advocated for centuries.

I don't really see myself as militant. What do you see about me that makes you believe I am militant? I'm not prejudiced against homosexuals and I have never abused anyone period. I have ever called you a militant atheist? I don't do that until I know beyond a shadow of doubt that they are. .

And how do you know- and judge that?

Why do I think you are a militant Christian?

Because you seem to think that gay Americans have an axe to grind with Christian Americans.

And you haven't turned that around to ask whether Christian Americans have an axe to grind with homosexuals.

So because I asked the question that means I believe it? Isn't asking a question the way we are supposed to learn things? Sure, I had a preconceived notion that there might be a link, but not because I don't like homosexuals or because I am prejudiced against them. I thought there might be a link because of the whole gay marriage thing. So rather than make an assumption, I started asking the people who I had identified as militant atheists if they were gay. Man did they get pissed. So instead, I created this thread, and man did people get pissed. So maybe you could tell me how I should have done it differently. I think this has gone pretty well considering. The Human Being seems to have changed his tune a bit, that is progress, right? Tell me what I have written that has been offensive? The title? Which was a freaking question. Asking you if you were gay? Tell me what I should have done different. Please.

If I were to ask you this question: "Ding- have you stopped kicking puppies?" Would that just be a 'freaking question'?

If I asked the question "Do Christian people have an axe to grind with Jews" would that just be a simple question?

Why would you ask people to answer a question about an entire group? Why would you expect anyone to be able to answer for all homosexuals? Or for all Christians?

I only kicked a dog once but it was not a puppy. I am not still kicking it.

No. I do not believe all Christian people have an ax to grind with Jews. Some do and some don't. I will tell you that their continued survival for 3000 years and their contribution to manking disproportionate to their numbers is inexplicable. When pressed for their success, the Jews find nothing special about themselves and give all credit to God. It would seem that their chosenness is the least arrogant response they could make. The Catholic Church will tell you that the Jews did not kill Jesus, we all killed Jesus. Every stinking one of us that sins had a hand in His death. Me included.

Why would I ask people to answer a question about an entire group? Because I am an engineer and I look at likelihoods. I identify rules and exceptions to rules. I look at everything as a distribution because everything is a distribution. You are one of many but you are part of the distribution. I don't expect you to answer for all homosexuals, just the ones you know and have expressed their opinion or the ones you know and have made your own observations.

You came into this thread and you engaged me. I did not drag you into it. It seems to me that you were the one looking for a fight.

 

[ding]

Sounds like another BS thread. Why does everyone think this world needs more dividing.

It is all part of the conflict and confusion process. Would you rather that we all think the same way? Where would the fun be in that?

 

[ding]

What about Alexis de Tocqueville observations that were recorded in his book, Democracy in America, a book that was used for quite some time at most universities in their polisci courses, what did you think about that? I noticed you edited that out of your reply. Why?

I think Alexis de Tocqueville made great observations on America.

And none of them takes away from my central contention- that America was founded on more than just Christian values- it was greatly influenced by pagan Roman and Greek values.

Were there many pagans and Romans in America back then? How exactly did they influence America?

Sigh.

"pagan Roman and Greek values"

If you are not wiling to respond to my actual posts- I am not sure what the point is.

So they learned history and you believe that informed their conscience. Never mind.

No- they didn't just learn 'history' they were steeped in learning the histories of Rome and Greece- and early Democracies and Republics. Reading Plutarch and Homer was a standard for the educated person- not histories about Greece and Rome- histories written by Romans and Greeks.

Along with reading about the Magna Carta- and English history.

I have never claimed that anything formed anyone's conscience- nor do I know how you would know what formed the conscience of everyone 200 years ago.

Great. Why do you believe Alexis de Tocqueville didn't write about that in his book?

 

[Mudda]

Proof you can’t be ‘born gay’

Homosexuality is prevalent throughout nature. Did all the other animals choose to be gay? Or is it just humans who can do that?

There are no gay animals. Only human beings are homosexual.

You stand corrected.
List of animals displaying homosexual behavior - Wikipedia

 

[Papageorgio]

Sounds like another BS thread. Why does everyone think this world needs more dividing.

It is all part of the conflict and confusion process. Would you rather that we all think the same way? Where would the fun be in that?

We all have our opinions, no one opinion is better than another. Why can't we respect others and their opinions?

 

[Skull Pilot]

I couldn't help but notice that there is quite a bit of animosity directed at Christians and I was wondering if maybe it was because Christians as a whole oppose gay marriage.

So... Do gay people have an ax to grind with Christians?

it's the other way around

Christians judge and discrimiate against gays even though the magic man in the sky's instruction book says

Matthew 7:1-3King James Version (KJV)
7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

 

[ding]

Sounds like another BS thread. Why does everyone think this world needs more dividing.

It is all part of the conflict and confusion process. Would you rather that we all think the same way? Where would the fun be in that?

We all have our opinions, no one opinion is better than another. Why can't we respect others and their opinions?

Agreed. Growth filled communities should explore all sides of an issue to arrive at objective truth. Diversity of thought is critical to that process. Uniformity is bad. Diversity is good.

 

[ding]

I couldn't help but notice that there is quite a bit of animosity directed at Christians and I was wondering if maybe it was because Christians as a whole oppose gay marriage.

So... Do gay people have an ax to grind with Christians?

it's the other way around

Christians judge and discrimiate against gays even though the magic man in the sky's instruction book says

Matthew 7:1-3King James Version (KJV)
7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

I see. Do you have any other basis for your observation besides a quote from the Bible?

 

[Skull Pilot]

I couldn't help but notice that there is quite a bit of animosity directed at Christians and I was wondering if maybe it was because Christians as a whole oppose gay marriage.

So... Do gay people have an ax to grind with Christians?

it's the other way around

Christians judge and discrimiate against gays even though the magic man in the sky's instruction book says

Matthew 7:1-3King James Version (KJV)
7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

I see. Do you have any other basis for your observation besides a quote from the Bible?

Do you not read the news how so called christians single out gays for discrimination?

These people blatantly ignore the magic man in the sky's teachings

 

[Papageorgio]

Sounds like another BS thread. Why does everyone think this world needs more dividing.

It is all part of the conflict and confusion process. Would you rather that we all think the same way? Where would the fun be in that?

We all have our opinions, no one opinion is better than another. Why can't we respect others and their opinions?

Agreed. Growth filled communities should explore all sides of an issue to arrive at objective truth. Diversity of thought is critical to that process. Uniformity is bad. Diversity is good.

I don't agree with you on homosexuals having an axe to grind with .christians, it's you trying to stir up crap, I think you have an axe to grind homosexuals.

 

[ding]

I couldn't help but notice that there is quite a bit of animosity directed at Christians and I was wondering if maybe it was because Christians as a whole oppose gay marriage.

So... Do gay people have an ax to grind with Christians?

it's the other way around

Christians judge and discrimiate against gays even though the magic man in the sky's instruction book says

Matthew 7:1-3King James Version (KJV)
7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

I see. Do you have any other basis for your observation besides a quote from the Bible?

Do you not read the news how so called christians single out gays for discrimination?

These people blatantly ignore the magic man in the sky's teachings

So how exactly do they discriminate? Is opposing gay marriage discrimination to you? Is there anything else besides that that forms the basis for your belief?

 

[ding]

Sounds like another BS thread. Why does everyone think this world needs more dividing.

It is all part of the conflict and confusion process. Would you rather that we all think the same way? Where would the fun be in that?

We all have our opinions, no one opinion is better than another. Why can't we respect others and their opinions?

Agreed. Growth filled communities should explore all sides of an issue to arrive at objective truth. Diversity of thought is critical to that process. Uniformity is bad. Diversity is good.

I don't agree with you on homosexuals having an axe to grind with .christians, it's you trying to stir up crap, I think you have an axe to grind homosexuals.

I didn't say they did. I asked the question. It seems to me that your objection is based on your desire for uniformity.