Zone1 Do most Jews believe they killed Jesus?

[hobelim]

Where's the evidence that Jesus was anti Roman?

"I have not come to bring peace but a sword."

"From his mouth there went a sharp sword with which to smite the nations." (the roman empire)

"He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword."

"Take from my hand this cup of fiery wine and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. When they have drunk it they will vomit and go mad; such is the sword that I am sending among them."

Take this cup of wine and drink it, all of you. This is a cup of my blood, the blood of the covenant.

"Just art thou, in these thy judgements, thou Holy One who art and wast; for they shed the blood of thy people and of thy prophets and thou hast given them blood to drink."

 

[surada]

"I have not come to bring peace but a sword."

"From his mouth there went a sharp sword with which to smite the nations." (the roman empire)

"He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword."

"Take from my hand this cup of fiery wine and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it. When they have drunk it they will vomit and go mad; such is the sword that I am sending among them."

Take this cup of wine and drink it, all of you. This is a cup of my blood, the blood of the covenant.

"Just art thou, in these thy judgements, thou Holy One who art and wast; for they shed the blood of thy people and of thy prophets and thou hast given them blood to drink."

The sword is a symbol of the truth of the word.

 

[hobelim]

The sword is a symbol of the truth of the word.

No. The sword is a curse under the appearance of a cup of wine.

"When they have drunk it they will vomit and go mad; such is the sword that I am sending among them."

 

[surada]

No. The sword is a curse under the appearance of a cup of wine.

"When they have drunk it they will vomit and go mad; such is the sword that I am sending among them."

Ephesians 6:17 - The Armor of God

And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

biblehub.com

 

[Meriweather]

I'm a little more cynical than that. I believe people don't care about the spirit of the law and only do things for their self interest.

Indeed, self-interest does play a part. But I read (or heard) somewhere that self-interest is not necessarily the prime motivator. It seems people act for the good of the group--which of course the group self is a part of.

I think we can see a little of that coming from David. What would be best for everyone? I think David concluded it would be best if Uriah came home, had relations with his wife, which would have then preserved Uriah and Bathsheba's marriage, provided them with both a child and probably would have made things more peaceful among David and his wives.

Of course, it can't be known for sure that this was David's thought process, but once I heard of group interest being ahead of self-interest, I have tried to see things through that lens as well. Self and group-interest can be knitted fairly tightly together. A more modern example of this might be President Trump. I truly see him as having the nation's interest at heart, but his own self-interests were also present. That could why he is seen so differently by various groups.

 

[BreezeWood]

you don't know the NT account of Jesus and
the money-changers-----EASY---just read
the book

- where it says they were roman shills ... that being money changers were jews and left to ply thier trade was not roman but jewish transgression. of absolute corruption in their temple.

 

[BreezeWood]

It was written into history. The early Christians were persecuted for their religious beliefs.

- they, 1st century adherents were murdered for their liberation theology, self determination the events of the 1st century ... by everyone. jewish / roman alliance.

no christians existed till the corrupt 4th century c bible ... and its false messiah, religion of servitude.

 

[BreezeWood]

Someone noted that we could relate to David because he was not perfect. I still have a problem with that. There is not being perfect, and then there is committing adultery and having someone killed. I can very much relate to not being perfect, but I have a hard time relating to adultery and having someone killed because I wanted something that was theirs.

I don't think Hezekiah was perfect, but I can relate to his imperfections better than I can relate to David's.

there is no such religious term as - perfect, nor is it a calculable topic for discussion - purity is the religious concept that is both attainable and innately known and inalterable - as a primary necessity for spiritual development.

 

[hobelim]

Ephesians 6:17 - The Armor of God

And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

biblehub.com

That makes no sense when including in your speculations "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword." and "When they have drunk it they will vomit and go mad; such is the sword that I am sending among them."

The word of God does make a person who lives by the the Word die. The word of God does not make you vomit and go mad. A curse does. The sword is a curse under the appearance of a cup of wine. This is the truth. The truth sets you free so be free.

In rev. 22:3 it says "and there shall be no more curse." What curse will be no more if not the one that makes you vomit and go mad?

 

[surada]

That makes no sense when including in your speculations "He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword." and "When they have drunk it they will vomit and go mad; such is the sword that I am sending among them."

The truth sets you free. The truth does not make you vomit and go mad. A curse does.

The sword coming out of the mouth of Jesus is the sword of truth.

 

[surada]

What does Revelation 19:15 mean? | BibleRef.com

From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. - What is the meaning of Revelation 19:15?

www.bibleref.com

 

[ding]

- they, 1st century adherents were murdered for their liberation theology, self determination the events of the 1st century ... by everyone. jewish / roman alliance.

no christians existed till the corrupt 4th century c bible ... and its false messiah, religion of servitude.

Cool story, bro.

Persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[hobelim]

The sword coming out of the mouth of Jesus is the sword of truth.

Again, The truth sets you free. the truth does not smite the nations. A curse does.

 

[ding]

Indeed, self-interest does play a part. But I read (or heard) somewhere that self-interest is not necessarily the prime motivator. It seems people act for the good of the group--which of course the group self is a part of.

I think we can see a little of that coming from David. What would be best for everyone? I think David concluded it would be best if Uriah came home, had relations with his wife, which would have then preserved Uriah and Bathsheba's marriage, provided them with both a child and probably would have made things more peaceful among David and his wives.

Of course, it can't be known for sure that this was David's thought process, but once I heard of group interest being ahead of self-interest, I have tried to see things through that lens as well. Self and group-interest can be knitted fairly tightly together. A more modern example of this might be President Trump. I truly see him as having the nation's interest at heart, but his own self-interests were also present. That could why he is seen so differently by various groups.

Thank you for that.

If you are familiar with Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of morality progression, the 1st five stages are effectively based upon self interest of one form or another. It's not until stage six that people follow the dictates of their conscience without regard to their self interest. Very few people - on the whole - reach the 6th level (rare exceptions excluded). At least that's what I recall reading.

 

[surada]

Again, The truth sets you free. the truth does not smite the nations. A curse does.

What does Revelation 19:15 mean? | BibleRef.com

From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. - What is the meaning of Revelation 19:15?

www.bibleref.com

 

[ding]

Again, The truth sets you free. the truth does not smite the nations. A curse does.

So now you are saying God cursed nations? I've never heard such silly theology before.

 

[ding]

Don't thank me, thank God.

If I didn't understand the teachings of Jesus about the will of God I wouldn't think of you at all much less have the substance to alert you to your error and provide you with the way out of hell and into the kingdom of heaven while still alive on earth. If you want to show some real gratitude, do yourself a favor; be silent and purify and refine your own mind, and cleanse it from every work of the devil or devils that have misled you. Until then you beliefs are really not kosher for anyone.

Amen, Secular Jesus!!!

 

[alang1216]

Where's the evidence that Jesus was anti Roman?

He was a devout Jew. He knew God had promised the land of Palestine to the Jews, not to the Romans. He was a follower of John who was executed by the Romans. He had a zealot as one (or more?) of his disciples.

It is not just my theory. There is a book, Zealot, and a website devoted to the idea.

 

[Meriweather]

If you are familiar with Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of morality progression, the 1st five stages are effectively based upon self interest of one form or another. It's not until stage six that people follow the dictates of their conscience without regard to their self interest. Very few people - on the whole - reach the 6th level (rare exceptions excluded). At least that's what I recall reading.

That sounds like an interesting, worthwhile read. I think the best most can do is through hindsight: Attempt to correct both the wrong committed and then mopping up the after-effects that came about because of that initial wrong. Hopefully, if the same or similar issue presents itself in the future, the least that can be done is to make that better choice.

 

[ding]

He was a devout Jew. He knew God had promised the land of Palestine to the Jews, not to the Romans. He was a follower of John who was executed by the Romans. He had a zealot as one (or more?) of his disciples.

It is not just my theory. There is a book, Zealot, and a website devoted to the idea.

So there was a massive conspiracy that occurred over hundreds of years?