Do you support abolishing the Federal Dept of Education?

[thereisnospoon]

One thing that we need to do is re-segregate the public school system. Degregation has ruined public schools all across the nation and it has taken our education system downhill.

Wait what??? So you want us to turn back to the Jim Crow laws where segregation based on race was the norm? I personally enjoyed having the ablity to talk and get to know people from a different background of myself - helped broaden my perspective on things. Boy, a black man in the White House must really piss you off.

No. I think resegregation in the minds of most people is "neighborhood schools"..In other words, students should go to the schools located nearest their residence. There are those who consider "neighborhood schools" to be a buzz word for "segregated".
Because court ordered busing has been ruled illegal in many places, the educrats and other do-gooders have tried many different avenues to maintain busing. They have enlarged school districts( countywide) or have gone so far as to use economic status to make travel to far flung schools the rule. Each time, parents have fought these measures.
People are tired. They are sick of being told that if their kid does not sit next to a kid of another race or culture, that child is getting a substandard education. Meanwhile children are rising from bed as early as 5 am to catch a 5:30 or 6 am school bus so they can travel past three schools closer to their home. Another sneaky means to bus is banning students from walking to school.
Free and reduced price meals is another means to bus kids. The federal government calculates school "poverty" levels by the number of children receiving free and reduced price meals. Schools with higher "poverty" rates are considered, at least under federal guidelines to be "segregated". Ridiculous as it may seem, there is no check or mandate that a child's family income be checked to see if they qualify for the meal stipend.
No one wants a return to "separate but equal". However the federal mandates for school desegreagation are draconian.
The bottom line is the federal government has no business interfering or even involving itself in public education. That is a matter for the states and local communities.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Convince me that education is not a vital national interest, and you'll convince me the federal government ought not be concerned with it.

That is not the issue at all. States did just fine running their schools.
Federal mandates were enacted to bring public education under the control of the US Government. The trade off was "if you accept our money, you abide by our rules."
School district administrators were all too obliged to rake in the new found bounty.
What the hell does a bureaucrat in DC know about a school district in Derry, New Hampshire? Not a fucking thing. Yet , the bureaucrats can control that district's schools.
Federal control of public education was born out of the suburbanization of America.
That is, when people started leaving the cities, the federal government hearing the cries of city school districts losing mainly white middle class families, had to do something. Since the federal government could not legally offer financial assistance to just one segment of the population, it had to help them all. So with that a whole bunch of bureaucratic strings were attached to the funding assistance. State and local politicians were eager to jump on the federal coin because it made them look good for the voters.
The thing is federal bureaucrats know nothing of local education. The bureaucrats in Washington function only to make sure they have something to justify their cushy jobs.
Federal involvement in public education has not done a single thing to improve education.
It's time to fling the US DOE out with the trash.

 

[flacaltenn]

Convince me that education is not a vital national interest, and you'll convince me the federal government ought not be concerned with it.

That is not the issue at all. States did just fine running their schools.
Federal mandates were enacted to bring public education under the control of the US Government. The trade off was "if you accept our money, you abide by our rules."
School district administrators were all too obliged to rake in the new found bounty.
What the hell does a bureaucrat in DC know about a school district in Derry, New Hampshire? Not a fucking thing. Yet , the bureaucrats can control that district's schools.
Federal control of public education was born out of the suburbanization of America.
That is, when people started leaving the cities, the federal government hearing the cries of city school districts losing mainly white middle class families, had to do something. Since the federal government could not legally offer financial assistance to just one segment of the population, it had to help them all. So with that a whole bunch of bureaucratic strings were attached to the funding assistance. State and local politicians were eager to jump on the federal coin because it made them look good for the voters.
The thing is federal bureaucrats know nothing of local education. The bureaucrats in Washington function only to make sure they have something to justify their cushy jobs.
Federal involvement in public education has not done a single thing to improve education.
It's time to fling the US DOE out with the trash.

In all honesty Spoon -- the states gave the FEDs the EXCUSE to launch grandiose programs like NCLB. They were cooking the books on their "standards testing" to such an extent -- that the data that one could pull from the states was useless. That's why I support the idea of national testing. But if NYCarb and others are unhappy with that gathering of information -- there is really no reason to pretend that the DC has a role to play. It would amount to guessing what the problems really are. Shut it down.

 

[Mr.Nick]

if you have a problem with our educational system i suggest you take it up with each state and then each local chapter ( school board.)

The feds have very little if anything to do with standards.

But you guys rather ignore the facts and truth and just circle jerk each other.

Your stupid shit is a fantastic example of our education system...

What the fuck makes you believe anyone is advocating federal government intervention? is that a knee-jerk reaction or your stupidity?

Intervention? You fuck sticks are talking about how the Feds control our educational system, and i am pointing out how wrong you douches are.

Try to keep up, I know that sewer water you drank as a child has had a great affect on you.

There is no brainwashing, there is no government control. All you have is federal funding If the schools need it. 90% comes from state and local boards.

If you want to complain about poor grades, then blame your state moron.

Where the fuck did I ever assert the "FED's" dictated the education system??

I claim socialists have taken education over......

 

[thereisnospoon]

In favor of returning education to Parents and the States?

so religious types can teach creationism as if it's equal to evolution?

or so teachers can set up creches in their classrooms?

I am convinced the theory of evolution to be more plausible. However just as creationism is a theory held by religious types so is the theory of evolution held by the scientific and secular communities.
In any event ,your premise that central planning by the federal government as a means to prevent creationism from being discussed in public schools is at best idiotic. And you're a bit late there, hussy....Creationism is discussed along side evolution in public schools.
I find it amazing how people like yourself on the political left have just enough tolerance for the things you see fit but God forbid anyone dare discuss a viewpoint or fact your oppose and right away the talons come out.
Fucking Lefty double standard strikes again.
This is why 80% of the population identifies themselves as something other than liberal.

 

[thereisnospoon]

In favor of returning education to Parents and the States?

Yes. Wy shouls States and municipalities have to grovel for money that rightly belongs to them in the first place?

cause it doesn't belong to the states, wackadoodle

Oh yes it does....
I suppose based on your premise that the earnings of individuals doesn't belong to THEM either.
You should not call names. It exposes the existence of limited intelligence. Get it?
Now why don't you dive into a good romance novel because the discussion of important issues is beyond your pay grade.

 

[Mr.Nick]

In favor of returning education to Parents and the States?

so religious types can teach creationism as if it's equal to evolution?

or so teachers can set up creches in their classrooms?

I am convinced the theory of evolution to be more plausible. However just as creationism is a theory held by religious types so is the theory of evolution held by the scientific and secular communities.
In any event ,your premise that central planning by the federal government as a means to prevent creationism from being discussed in public schools is at best idiotic. And you're a bit late there, hussy....Creationism is discussed along side evolution in public schools.
I find it amazing how people like yourself on the political left have just enough tolerance for the things you see fit but God forbid anyone dare discuss a viewpoint or fact your oppose and right away the talons come out.
Fucking Lefty double standard strikes again.
This is why 80% of the population identifies themselves as something other than liberal.

They're not liberals - they're authoritarians.....

 

[thereisnospoon]

As a relative outsider, has this thread been borne out of concern over the quality of education being delivered in the classroom, or concerns over discipline and safety? And is a there a [national] consensus or debate forming that claims localisation and overall state (as opposed to federal) administration would be a force for good? If the latter's the case, would funding that comes from any federal sources be allocated on merit? If so, how would states whose newly localised education system flourishes under this proposed system deal with educational migration from states whose education system is comparatively underperforming?

States and local government operated public education long before the onset of federal involvement. The Carter administration instituted the Federal Dept of Education.
Since then federal involvement has gotten to the point where it's stifling public education.

 

[Foxfyre]

hmmmm and why do they need any of that and why pray tell is it any of their damn business?

They don't NEED it. But it would be an important and highly useful service that the federal government could legitimately provide in the interest of the general welfare.

How would any school district know how good a job its school board, administrators, and teachers were doing in education without some way to compare their progress with others? It would be a huge job for a local school to research changing entrance requirements, tuition, fees, etc. for every institution of higher learning so that they could counsel the kids on how to prepare and show them their options of where they might like to go. A central federal data base could collect and dispense that information effortless however, most especially in this high tech computer age.

The school that opted out of the system would have the complete right to do so, but would do so at the peril of parents avoiding that district or employers unwilling to locate in a community with a potentially inferior education system. As long as the school was in the data base and can show it is on a par with other school in the area and state and country, there is no problem. And it is a huge incentive to do the best job possible in education.

Seems like Google is all the database they may need. Any backward state will show itself rather handily. Kinda like Perry is getting outed now

But that would require every school to research every other school from kindergarten through graduate school, a daunting task to say the least, and requiring considerable resources to keep track of changes everywhere and then compile the statistics into a usable form. A central data base would be almost effortless to compile the same information and useful to everybody requiring only a small amount of time from one employee to input the information in each school.

There are times that it IS more efficient and effective for the Federal government to do it. A central data base would be one of those times. Micromanaging the curriculum, standards, diet, etc. etc. etc. in a one-size-fits-all manner, however, and holding funding over the heads of the states and local schools as a club to conform to federal requirements, has been a huge albatross around the neck of all the schools.

Not only does it require an enormous bureaucracy in D.C. to do it, the more sinister implications of an authoritarian ever-more-powerful government having a say so over the curriculum taught to the children should be obvious to everybody.

 

[nolebrakai]

here is my 0.02$.


with the typical successful American household having both parents at full time work I still do agree that the parents need a lot of help in keeping the education process in front of them. Its so easy to fall behind the Q if the real world demands more and more to make ends meet. Which is exactly the scenario we are seeing as we speak.

so while it sounds so good to sit here and say that parents need to be much more involved, im just not sure our current American pace of life is going to accommodate such a reality. I wish it did.

overall, I like the system in place very much. I went to Cocoa Beach High and received a great education. My parents both worked for the space program and were very busy making a good life for my sister and I. thank god for a good public school and even better teachers. SO instead of acting like rotten right wing snot nosed brats, lets support our teachers as they are a HUGE part of our community and the overall success of our Nation. Lets make sure they make a lot more money and become more accustom to being audited so they preform to our high American standards. the system is fine, it just needs a massive investment from all of us, including money.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

In favor of returning education to Parents and the States?

I'm sorry, but how does eliminating Pell Grants "return education to the parents".

 

[nolebrakai]

I think and know the right means well with the whole "give back education to the parents" number. However, after working over seas for the past 5 years, its clear to see that our way of life is so fast its impossible to ask parents to be involved 100%, if that are to make a good living and save enough to send kids to college.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

with the typical successful American household having both parents at full time work...

I wouldn't define that as necessarily "success". It wasn't that long ago that a man might consider himself a total failure if he couldn't afford for his wife to stay at home. My mother was stay at home ( I was born 77) yet our household was certainly "successful"

 

[nolebrakai]

both my parent worked hard and both had master degrees in their respected fields of education. I also have a EE engineering degree from GT and a BS in business from FSU. However, not all people will end up in the same boat. I guess my point is, both my parents were heavily involved in the Apollo and Orbiter programs and did not have a lot of time. they relied on the public school system to educate myself and my little sister, who is at Princeton as we speak. I think I am a product of how effective our current school system can work if funded properly.

 

[The T]

After we get rid of the Dept of Education we need to get rid of the EPA and the IRS.

Just think about how much it would save us if we just got rid of them. It would balance the budget overnight.

Pretty much. But why should we expect politicians to relinquish power back to the people where it belongs?

 

[bripat9643]

I am convinced the theory of evolution to be more plausible. However just as creationism is a theory held by religious types so is the theory of evolution held by the scientific and secular communities.
In any event ,your premise that central planning by the federal government as a means to prevent creationism from being discussed in public schools is at best idiotic. And you're a bit late there, hussy....Creationism is discussed along side evolution in public schools.
I find it amazing how people like yourself on the political left have just enough tolerance for the things you see fit but God forbid anyone dare discuss a viewpoint or fact your oppose and right away the talons come out.
Fucking Lefty double standard strikes again.
This is why 80% of the population identifies themselves as something other than liberal.

Here is one of the best arguments for private schools. Why should every kid in a state have to be taught the same thing? That smacks of indoctrination and propaganda. With private schools, parents can choose what they want their kids to learn. Of course, the liberals will howl. They don't want people learning anything libs disagree with.

 

[bripat9643]

private schools get federal money from the DOE....at least 31%% of them do...

What makes you think I support that?

 

[flacaltenn]

both my parent worked hard and both had master degrees in their respected fields of education. I also have a EE engineering degree from GT and a BS in business from FSU. However, not all people will end up in the same boat. I guess my point is, both my parents were heavily involved in the Apollo and Orbiter programs and did not have a lot of time. they relied on the public school system to educate myself and my little sister, who is at Princeton as we speak. I think I am a product of how effective our current school system can work if funded properly.

Nolebrakai:

We share similiar backgrounds and experience. The battle here is not about the 20 or 25% of Public Schools that produce gems like us.. It's about the Fed role in diagnosing and treating the bottom 20 to 25% of failing schools that have trapped some caring parents (who are as vested in their kids education as our parents) in desparate hell holes.

ALTHOUGH -- my wife and I have been constantly tapped by neighbors and friends to "undo" the voodoo effects of the latest educational math craze on their 'good school' kids because we're engineers. I personally witnessed "math freeze" because of intimidation of trying to teach 30 ways to multiply or "guesstimation to an arbitrary decimal point" instead of getting the CORRECT answer. Same goes for a myriad of other failed "experiments" on our kids that include "whole language" instead of phonics, and the worse experiment of the past decade -- GROUP assignments and grading --- rather than individual performance. But those are another thread.

The issue here is that OUTCOMES at the bottom 50% of schools are declining. And the response to that has been to lower expectations and cook the books on the testing. This was occuring with or without Fed intervention. If the adamant Public School defenders won't ALLOW the FEDS to measure the performance with National Testing, there is no scientific way to proceed. The outcry over "teaching to the test" comes from the same people trying to justify a Fed role in the process. NEVER needed to be any "teaching to the test".. I've been thru most of the NAEP tests. NOTHING there that a parent wouldn't expect their kids to know at those testing levels. ABSOLUTELY MINIMUM standards that upwards of 60% of Public School kids can't get a "Proficient" grade on..

If the proponents won't allow testing and giving hope and choice and IMMEDIATE relief to parents in failing schools this semester -- THEN CLOSE THE Dept of ED.. Because there is nothing methodical that can be done with those restrictions.

And NO -- it's NOT about more money.. We disagree there wholeheartedly. It's a systemic infection of HIDING performance and coasting thru because largely the consumers (parents) are not engaged. That would NEVER be a problem in a case where the money was actually coming from the errant parents pockets.. ((Therefore I'm also not blaming teachers first -- obviously))

 

[bripat9643]

private schools get federal money from the DOE....at least 31%% of them do...

What makes you think I support that?

oh i doubt you do, but i am pointing out that the DOE helps more than just public schools.....

this thread has been a wonderful example of the fear and disinformation the right likes to use in order to win.

The DoA doesn't "help" anyone. It simply interferes and fouls everything up.

It needs to be abolished.

 

[Avatar4321]

I have to say, I never expected to see 80% support for abolishing it... even here.