does God love us?

[ding]

The data overwhelmingly shows that man is a spiritual being. It is for good reason that David Foster Wallace said that we all worship something and the only choice in the matter is what we choose to worship. We are literally hardwired for it. Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. When we look at the data today we see that more and more people are rejecting organized religion but have not abandoned their belief that they are more than just matter or that there is a force which connects or binds us all. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic we became the less satisfied we became.

What data proves there is some spirit that exists after a person dies?

We have elevated our minds which are merely a function of the brain and by extension the body into some mystical force

Who knows what happens when consciousness makes the next leap? Maybe you will get to find out one day.

Of course faith isn't about dying, faith is about living.

Then why so much emphasis on the afterlife?

I never thought there was. You are the one who keeps bringing it up.

Of course there is.

Really? Which religions and what is your basis for that belief?

Christianity, Islam, Judaism are all premised on the immortal spirit originating in some divine realm to which they will return if they live in accordance to the rules set down by the god they worship.

No. They all premise on how to live life and not live life. You have made the assumption that it is for eternal reward and eternal punishment rather than experiencing existence to the fullest to become the best version of yourself that you can be.

Can you show me the texts which support your claim that the objective of Christianity, Islam, Judaism is to return to the immortal spirit if they live in accordance to the rules set down by the god they worship?

And what about the other major religions?

How to live so as to be rewarded with eternal life

There is always the promise of an afterlife as a reward. Not one of those religions say that if you live according to their rules that your existence will simply end or that there is nothing after death.

No. How to live life to experience existence to its fullest and become the best version of yourself. I've never once heard a sermon in mass about eternal damnation, salvation or heaven and hell. Not once. I have heard plenty of sermons about how having a personal relationship enriches my life though.

So... where are the texts that support your position?

And what about the other major religions you didn't mention?

1.8. Assurance of Eternal Rewards | Bible.org

The Doctrine of the Bema A prominent doctrine of the New Testament concerns the Doctrine of Rewards and the Judgment Seat of Christ. It is a doctrine often ignored or, when taught, it is misrepresented because of the term “judgment” that is used in translating the Greek text. Commenting on this...

bible.org

True Islam - Rewards of Paradise for men only?

True Islam is derived from the Quran and not from the traditions or cultures of Muslim people

www.quran-islam.org

How many verses focus on eternal reward and punishment in the Bible? And how many don't? Only then can you make an assessment what the book is actually teaching. Pointing to a few verses out of thousands and claiming that's what the bible is teaching is disingenuous at best.

 

[ding]

[

It always makes me scratch my head when I read about people not believing in God because He DOESN'T do magical things for them.

No faith. Matthew 17:20

How many mountains have you seen being moved lately? You know somebody would have done it by now if it was possible.

Depends on how you took it. But let's assume it was meant to be taken literally, how do you know what the limit of consciousness is?

Christians crow about how accurate the bible is except for the parts where they need an excuse to ignore it. I'm just saying there aren't any mountains jumping back and forth.

I suspect there may be no passages you would accept. You think it's all fairytales, right?

There is profound wisdom and universal truth to be found in the Bible. I could never compare it with a simple fairy tale. Much of it is true, even if those events depicted never really happened. Unfortunately, the more I studied it, the less reason I found to believe in a loving, all powerful god who does such horrible things.

Interesting. All I can tell you is that the Jews believed God was loving, so maybe it's your understanding of what you are reading that is flawed. As for events depicted never happening, not sure what you are referring to but if you are reading it literally I can understand your confusion.

I did not come to believe in God by reading other people's perception of God. I came to believe in God through observations of the natural world, myself, others, logic and experience. It was only then that I was able to make sense of the various teachings of ancient man. All I can tell you is that my confirmation came from experiencing God firsthand and witnessing the transformations which ensued. The proof is always in the pudding and my life has been enriched beyond measure for making that pudding.

If you don't feel that something is missing or the need to transform yourself, then don't.

I feel the need to transform myself every day. There are always new goals to accomplish, and imperfections to correct. You don't need the fear of an omnipotent judgmental being to want to better yourself. I want to better myself for me and the ones I love, not because I'm afraid of what some imagined all knowing taskmaster will do to me if I don't.

It's not about fear. It's about love.

Right. The love of keeping your ass out of an imaginary fire. That's what it all comes down to. Well, that, and an inordinate sense of superiority.

religion plays to greed and fear and always has

That doesn't sound like a functional advantage.

It is

How many billions of dollars are given to religions annually?

Bitter much?

Why would I be bitter?

I never gave money to any religion.

religion plays of the fear of death and the greed of those wanting eternal bliss.

Because you haven't filled your God void. Which is why you are here arguing against the beliefs of others; making straw-men arguments like religion plays on the fear of death and the greed of those wanting eternal bliss.

I already showed you how Darwin says you are wrong. Natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago.

I have no god void. I have no use for gods because they are imaginary.

and the definition for spirituality has become so vague as to be meaningless.

Path not taken so you have never tested it and don't know.

If you believe that you are more than matter, then you would be spiritual. If you believe you are only matter, then you are a materialist. Can't get anymore simple or succinct than that.

I was exposed to religion when I was young. I realized quite early that I had no need for it.

Religion isn't God. Why are you equivocating?

I'm not. I have no use for gods therefore I have no use for religion.

I never equated them. That's you making shit up again

The path you didn't take was entering into a relationship with God. That is what you have never tested. Your response to that was you were exposed to religion when you were young and realized you had no use for it. That's you equivocating religion with God. They are two different things. So, no, I didn't make anything up.

So I will say again, you have never tested having a relationship with God so you have never traveled down that path and cannot hold an informed opinion on whether that relationship will enrich your life and make you become the best version of yourself. I have traveled both paths.

Like I said I have no use for gods. I gave up the idea of imaginary friends when I was 9 years old.

Like I said... path not traveled. It's your loss.

 

[Taz]

Does god still love me even if I see no proof of said god?

Yes. Why not? He still loves you even though you reject Him.

lol, not reject, see no proof for. If I see real proof, I’ll accept it/him/her.

If that were the case, taz, you wouldn't deny that the only options which exist are God exists or God doesn't exist. Your reluctance to accept this simple binary proposition as well as your reluctance to accept the universe popping into existence from nothing being hardwired to produce intelligence proves you are lying. You fear examination because you want to reject God.

God exists, god doesn't exist, and I don't know either way for lack of proof. It's an agnostic position. Deal with it.

 

[Blues Man]

The data overwhelmingly shows that man is a spiritual being. It is for good reason that David Foster Wallace said that we all worship something and the only choice in the matter is what we choose to worship. We are literally hardwired for it. Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. When we look at the data today we see that more and more people are rejecting organized religion but have not abandoned their belief that they are more than just matter or that there is a force which connects or binds us all. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic we became the less satisfied we became.

What data proves there is some spirit that exists after a person dies?

We have elevated our minds which are merely a function of the brain and by extension the body into some mystical force

Who knows what happens when consciousness makes the next leap? Maybe you will get to find out one day.

Of course faith isn't about dying, faith is about living.

Then why so much emphasis on the afterlife?

I never thought there was. You are the one who keeps bringing it up.

Of course there is.

Really? Which religions and what is your basis for that belief?

Christianity, Islam, Judaism are all premised on the immortal spirit originating in some divine realm to which they will return if they live in accordance to the rules set down by the god they worship.

No. They all premise on how to live life and not live life. You have made the assumption that it is for eternal reward and eternal punishment rather than experiencing existence to the fullest to become the best version of yourself that you can be.

Can you show me the texts which support your claim that the objective of Christianity, Islam, Judaism is to return to the immortal spirit if they live in accordance to the rules set down by the god they worship?

And what about the other major religions?

How to live so as to be rewarded with eternal life

There is always the promise of an afterlife as a reward. Not one of those religions say that if you live according to their rules that your existence will simply end or that there is nothing after death.

No. How to live life to experience existence to its fullest and become the best version of yourself. I've never once heard a sermon in mass about eternal damnation, salvation or heaven and hell. Not once. I have heard plenty of sermons about how having a personal relationship enriches my life though.

So... where are the texts that support your position?

And what about the other major religions you didn't mention?

1.8. Assurance of Eternal Rewards | Bible.org

The Doctrine of the Bema A prominent doctrine of the New Testament concerns the Doctrine of Rewards and the Judgment Seat of Christ. It is a doctrine often ignored or, when taught, it is misrepresented because of the term “judgment” that is used in translating the Greek text. Commenting on this...

bible.org

True Islam - Rewards of Paradise for men only?

True Islam is derived from the Quran and not from the traditions or cultures of Muslim people

www.quran-islam.org

How many verses focus on eternal reward and punishment in the Bible? And how many don't? Only then can you make an assessment what the book is actually teaching. Pointing to a few verses out of thousands and claiming that's what the bible is teaching is disingenuous at best.Here

You cannot deny the promise of eternal rewards in the religions I mentioned. The entire premise of the rules on living is that if you do what god says you will be rewarded.

46 Bible Verses about Reward here's 46 mentions of rewards for a start.

 

[Blues Man]

[

It always makes me scratch my head when I read about people not believing in God because He DOESN'T do magical things for them.

No faith. Matthew 17:20

How many mountains have you seen being moved lately? You know somebody would have done it by now if it was possible.

Depends on how you took it. But let's assume it was meant to be taken literally, how do you know what the limit of consciousness is?

Christians crow about how accurate the bible is except for the parts where they need an excuse to ignore it. I'm just saying there aren't any mountains jumping back and forth.

I suspect there may be no passages you would accept. You think it's all fairytales, right?

There is profound wisdom and universal truth to be found in the Bible. I could never compare it with a simple fairy tale. Much of it is true, even if those events depicted never really happened. Unfortunately, the more I studied it, the less reason I found to believe in a loving, all powerful god who does such horrible things.

Interesting. All I can tell you is that the Jews believed God was loving, so maybe it's your understanding of what you are reading that is flawed. As for events depicted never happening, not sure what you are referring to but if you are reading it literally I can understand your confusion.

I did not come to believe in God by reading other people's perception of God. I came to believe in God through observations of the natural world, myself, others, logic and experience. It was only then that I was able to make sense of the various teachings of ancient man. All I can tell you is that my confirmation came from experiencing God firsthand and witnessing the transformations which ensued. The proof is always in the pudding and my life has been enriched beyond measure for making that pudding.

If you don't feel that something is missing or the need to transform yourself, then don't.

I feel the need to transform myself every day. There are always new goals to accomplish, and imperfections to correct. You don't need the fear of an omnipotent judgmental being to want to better yourself. I want to better myself for me and the ones I love, not because I'm afraid of what some imagined all knowing taskmaster will do to me if I don't.

It's not about fear. It's about love.

Right. The love of keeping your ass out of an imaginary fire. That's what it all comes down to. Well, that, and an inordinate sense of superiority.

religion plays to greed and fear and always has

That doesn't sound like a functional advantage.

It is

How many billions of dollars are given to religions annually?

Bitter much?

Why would I be bitter?

I never gave money to any religion.

religion plays of the fear of death and the greed of those wanting eternal bliss.

Because you haven't filled your God void. Which is why you are here arguing against the beliefs of others; making straw-men arguments like religion plays on the fear of death and the greed of those wanting eternal bliss.

I already showed you how Darwin says you are wrong. Natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago.

I have no god void. I have no use for gods because they are imaginary.

and the definition for spirituality has become so vague as to be meaningless.

Path not taken so you have never tested it and don't know.

If you believe that you are more than matter, then you would be spiritual. If you believe you are only matter, then you are a materialist. Can't get anymore simple or succinct than that.

I was exposed to religion when I was young. I realized quite early that I had no need for it.

Religion isn't God. Why are you equivocating?

I'm not. I have no use for gods therefore I have no use for religion.

I never equated them. That's you making shit up again

The path you didn't take was entering into a relationship with God. That is what you have never tested. Your response to that was you were exposed to religion when you were young and realized you had no use for it. That's you equivocating religion with God. They are two different things. So, no, I didn't make anything up.

So I will say again, you have never tested having a relationship with God so you have never traveled down that path and cannot hold an informed opinion on whether that relationship will enrich your life and make you become the best version of yourself. I have traveled both paths.

Like I said I have no use for gods. I gave up the idea of imaginary friends when I was 9 years old.

Like I said... path not traveled. It's your loss.

No I haven't lost a thing.

 

[ding]

Does god still love me even if I see no proof of said god?

Yes. Why not? He still loves you even though you reject Him.

lol, not reject, see no proof for. If I see real proof, I’ll accept it/him/her.

If that were the case, taz, you wouldn't deny that the only options which exist are God exists or God doesn't exist. Your reluctance to accept this simple binary proposition as well as your reluctance to accept the universe popping into existence from nothing being hardwired to produce intelligence proves you are lying. You fear examination because you want to reject God.

God exists, god doesn't exist, and I don't know either way for lack of proof. It's an agnostic position. Deal with it.

So then you agree that...

At the heart of this debate is whether or not the material world was created by spirit. If the material world were not created by spirit, then everything which has occurred since the beginning of space and time are products of the material world. Everything which is incorporeal proceeded from the corporeal. There is no middle ground. There is no other option. Either the material world was created by spirit or it wasn't. All other options will simplify to one of these two lowest common denominators which are mutually exclusive.

 

[ding]

[

It always makes me scratch my head when I read about people not believing in God because He DOESN'T do magical things for them.

No faith. Matthew 17:20

How many mountains have you seen being moved lately? You know somebody would have done it by now if it was possible.

Depends on how you took it. But let's assume it was meant to be taken literally, how do you know what the limit of consciousness is?

Christians crow about how accurate the bible is except for the parts where they need an excuse to ignore it. I'm just saying there aren't any mountains jumping back and forth.

I suspect there may be no passages you would accept. You think it's all fairytales, right?

There is profound wisdom and universal truth to be found in the Bible. I could never compare it with a simple fairy tale. Much of it is true, even if those events depicted never really happened. Unfortunately, the more I studied it, the less reason I found to believe in a loving, all powerful god who does such horrible things.

Interesting. All I can tell you is that the Jews believed God was loving, so maybe it's your understanding of what you are reading that is flawed. As for events depicted never happening, not sure what you are referring to but if you are reading it literally I can understand your confusion.

I did not come to believe in God by reading other people's perception of God. I came to believe in God through observations of the natural world, myself, others, logic and experience. It was only then that I was able to make sense of the various teachings of ancient man. All I can tell you is that my confirmation came from experiencing God firsthand and witnessing the transformations which ensued. The proof is always in the pudding and my life has been enriched beyond measure for making that pudding.

If you don't feel that something is missing or the need to transform yourself, then don't.

I feel the need to transform myself every day. There are always new goals to accomplish, and imperfections to correct. You don't need the fear of an omnipotent judgmental being to want to better yourself. I want to better myself for me and the ones I love, not because I'm afraid of what some imagined all knowing taskmaster will do to me if I don't.

It's not about fear. It's about love.

Right. The love of keeping your ass out of an imaginary fire. That's what it all comes down to. Well, that, and an inordinate sense of superiority.

religion plays to greed and fear and always has

That doesn't sound like a functional advantage.

It is

How many billions of dollars are given to religions annually?

Bitter much?

Why would I be bitter?

I never gave money to any religion.

religion plays of the fear of death and the greed of those wanting eternal bliss.

Because you haven't filled your God void. Which is why you are here arguing against the beliefs of others; making straw-men arguments like religion plays on the fear of death and the greed of those wanting eternal bliss.

I already showed you how Darwin says you are wrong. Natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago.

I have no god void. I have no use for gods because they are imaginary.

and the definition for spirituality has become so vague as to be meaningless.

Path not taken so you have never tested it and don't know.

If you believe that you are more than matter, then you would be spiritual. If you believe you are only matter, then you are a materialist. Can't get anymore simple or succinct than that.

I was exposed to religion when I was young. I realized quite early that I had no need for it.

Religion isn't God. Why are you equivocating?

I'm not. I have no use for gods therefore I have no use for religion.

I never equated them. That's you making shit up again

The path you didn't take was entering into a relationship with God. That is what you have never tested. Your response to that was you were exposed to religion when you were young and realized you had no use for it. That's you equivocating religion with God. They are two different things. So, no, I didn't make anything up.

So I will say again, you have never tested having a relationship with God so you have never traveled down that path and cannot hold an informed opinion on whether that relationship will enrich your life and make you become the best version of yourself. I have traveled both paths.

Like I said I have no use for gods. I gave up the idea of imaginary friends when I was 9 years old.

Like I said... path not traveled. It's your loss.

No I haven't lost a thing.

How would you know? You never tested it.

 

[ding]

The data overwhelmingly shows that man is a spiritual being. It is for good reason that David Foster Wallace said that we all worship something and the only choice in the matter is what we choose to worship. We are literally hardwired for it. Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. When we look at the data today we see that more and more people are rejecting organized religion but have not abandoned their belief that they are more than just matter or that there is a force which connects or binds us all. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic we became the less satisfied we became.

What data proves there is some spirit that exists after a person dies?

We have elevated our minds which are merely a function of the brain and by extension the body into some mystical force

Who knows what happens when consciousness makes the next leap? Maybe you will get to find out one day.

Of course faith isn't about dying, faith is about living.

Then why so much emphasis on the afterlife?

I never thought there was. You are the one who keeps bringing it up.

Of course there is.

Really? Which religions and what is your basis for that belief?

Christianity, Islam, Judaism are all premised on the immortal spirit originating in some divine realm to which they will return if they live in accordance to the rules set down by the god they worship.

No. They all premise on how to live life and not live life. You have made the assumption that it is for eternal reward and eternal punishment rather than experiencing existence to the fullest to become the best version of yourself that you can be.

Can you show me the texts which support your claim that the objective of Christianity, Islam, Judaism is to return to the immortal spirit if they live in accordance to the rules set down by the god they worship?

And what about the other major religions?

How to live so as to be rewarded with eternal life

There is always the promise of an afterlife as a reward. Not one of those religions say that if you live according to their rules that your existence will simply end or that there is nothing after death.

No. How to live life to experience existence to its fullest and become the best version of yourself. I've never once heard a sermon in mass about eternal damnation, salvation or heaven and hell. Not once. I have heard plenty of sermons about how having a personal relationship enriches my life though.

So... where are the texts that support your position?

And what about the other major religions you didn't mention?

1.8. Assurance of Eternal Rewards | Bible.org

The Doctrine of the Bema A prominent doctrine of the New Testament concerns the Doctrine of Rewards and the Judgment Seat of Christ. It is a doctrine often ignored or, when taught, it is misrepresented because of the term “judgment” that is used in translating the Greek text. Commenting on this...

bible.org

True Islam - Rewards of Paradise for men only?

True Islam is derived from the Quran and not from the traditions or cultures of Muslim people

www.quran-islam.org

How many verses focus on eternal reward and punishment in the Bible? And how many don't? Only then can you make an assessment what the book is actually teaching. Pointing to a few verses out of thousands and claiming that's what the bible is teaching is disingenuous at best.Here

You cannot deny the promise of eternal rewards in the religions I mentioned. The entire premise of the rules on living is that if you do what god says you will be rewarded.

46 Bible Verses about Reward here's 46 mentions of rewards for a start.

I deny that that is the central focus of any religion's teaching. I thought I made that clear.

Again... Pointing to a few verses out of thousands and claiming that's what the bible is teaching is disingenuous at best.

 

[Blues Man]

[

It always makes me scratch my head when I read about people not believing in God because He DOESN'T do magical things for them.

No faith. Matthew 17:20

How many mountains have you seen being moved lately? You know somebody would have done it by now if it was possible.

Depends on how you took it. But let's assume it was meant to be taken literally, how do you know what the limit of consciousness is?

Christians crow about how accurate the bible is except for the parts where they need an excuse to ignore it. I'm just saying there aren't any mountains jumping back and forth.

I suspect there may be no passages you would accept. You think it's all fairytales, right?

There is profound wisdom and universal truth to be found in the Bible. I could never compare it with a simple fairy tale. Much of it is true, even if those events depicted never really happened. Unfortunately, the more I studied it, the less reason I found to believe in a loving, all powerful god who does such horrible things.

Interesting. All I can tell you is that the Jews believed God was loving, so maybe it's your understanding of what you are reading that is flawed. As for events depicted never happening, not sure what you are referring to but if you are reading it literally I can understand your confusion.

I did not come to believe in God by reading other people's perception of God. I came to believe in God through observations of the natural world, myself, others, logic and experience. It was only then that I was able to make sense of the various teachings of ancient man. All I can tell you is that my confirmation came from experiencing God firsthand and witnessing the transformations which ensued. The proof is always in the pudding and my life has been enriched beyond measure for making that pudding.

If you don't feel that something is missing or the need to transform yourself, then don't.

I feel the need to transform myself every day. There are always new goals to accomplish, and imperfections to correct. You don't need the fear of an omnipotent judgmental being to want to better yourself. I want to better myself for me and the ones I love, not because I'm afraid of what some imagined all knowing taskmaster will do to me if I don't.

It's not about fear. It's about love.

Right. The love of keeping your ass out of an imaginary fire. That's what it all comes down to. Well, that, and an inordinate sense of superiority.

religion plays to greed and fear and always has

That doesn't sound like a functional advantage.

It is

How many billions of dollars are given to religions annually?

Bitter much?

Why would I be bitter?

I never gave money to any religion.

religion plays of the fear of death and the greed of those wanting eternal bliss.

Because you haven't filled your God void. Which is why you are here arguing against the beliefs of others; making straw-men arguments like religion plays on the fear of death and the greed of those wanting eternal bliss.

I already showed you how Darwin says you are wrong. Natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago.

I have no god void. I have no use for gods because they are imaginary.

and the definition for spirituality has become so vague as to be meaningless.

Path not taken so you have never tested it and don't know.

If you believe that you are more than matter, then you would be spiritual. If you believe you are only matter, then you are a materialist. Can't get anymore simple or succinct than that.

I was exposed to religion when I was young. I realized quite early that I had no need for it.

Religion isn't God. Why are you equivocating?

I'm not. I have no use for gods therefore I have no use for religion.

I never equated them. That's you making shit up again

The path you didn't take was entering into a relationship with God. That is what you have never tested. Your response to that was you were exposed to religion when you were young and realized you had no use for it. That's you equivocating religion with God. They are two different things. So, no, I didn't make anything up.

So I will say again, you have never tested having a relationship with God so you have never traveled down that path and cannot hold an informed opinion on whether that relationship will enrich your life and make you become the best version of yourself. I have traveled both paths.

Like I said I have no use for gods. I gave up the idea of imaginary friends when I was 9 years old.

Like I said... path not traveled. It's your loss.

No I haven't lost a thing.

How would you know? You never tested it.

I never shot heroin either but I think I'm better of not having tested it.

 

[ding]

[

It always makes me scratch my head when I read about people not believing in God because He DOESN'T do magical things for them.

No faith. Matthew 17:20

How many mountains have you seen being moved lately? You know somebody would have done it by now if it was possible.

Depends on how you took it. But let's assume it was meant to be taken literally, how do you know what the limit of consciousness is?

Christians crow about how accurate the bible is except for the parts where they need an excuse to ignore it. I'm just saying there aren't any mountains jumping back and forth.

I suspect there may be no passages you would accept. You think it's all fairytales, right?

There is profound wisdom and universal truth to be found in the Bible. I could never compare it with a simple fairy tale. Much of it is true, even if those events depicted never really happened. Unfortunately, the more I studied it, the less reason I found to believe in a loving, all powerful god who does such horrible things.

Interesting. All I can tell you is that the Jews believed God was loving, so maybe it's your understanding of what you are reading that is flawed. As for events depicted never happening, not sure what you are referring to but if you are reading it literally I can understand your confusion.

I did not come to believe in God by reading other people's perception of God. I came to believe in God through observations of the natural world, myself, others, logic and experience. It was only then that I was able to make sense of the various teachings of ancient man. All I can tell you is that my confirmation came from experiencing God firsthand and witnessing the transformations which ensued. The proof is always in the pudding and my life has been enriched beyond measure for making that pudding.

If you don't feel that something is missing or the need to transform yourself, then don't.

I feel the need to transform myself every day. There are always new goals to accomplish, and imperfections to correct. You don't need the fear of an omnipotent judgmental being to want to better yourself. I want to better myself for me and the ones I love, not because I'm afraid of what some imagined all knowing taskmaster will do to me if I don't.

It's not about fear. It's about love.

Right. The love of keeping your ass out of an imaginary fire. That's what it all comes down to. Well, that, and an inordinate sense of superiority.

religion plays to greed and fear and always has

That doesn't sound like a functional advantage.

It is

How many billions of dollars are given to religions annually?

Bitter much?

Why would I be bitter?

I never gave money to any religion.

religion plays of the fear of death and the greed of those wanting eternal bliss.

Because you haven't filled your God void. Which is why you are here arguing against the beliefs of others; making straw-men arguments like religion plays on the fear of death and the greed of those wanting eternal bliss.

I already showed you how Darwin says you are wrong. Natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago.

I have no god void. I have no use for gods because they are imaginary.

and the definition for spirituality has become so vague as to be meaningless.

Path not taken so you have never tested it and don't know.

If you believe that you are more than matter, then you would be spiritual. If you believe you are only matter, then you are a materialist. Can't get anymore simple or succinct than that.

I was exposed to religion when I was young. I realized quite early that I had no need for it.

Religion isn't God. Why are you equivocating?

I'm not. I have no use for gods therefore I have no use for religion.

I never equated them. That's you making shit up again

The path you didn't take was entering into a relationship with God. That is what you have never tested. Your response to that was you were exposed to religion when you were young and realized you had no use for it. That's you equivocating religion with God. They are two different things. So, no, I didn't make anything up.

So I will say again, you have never tested having a relationship with God so you have never traveled down that path and cannot hold an informed opinion on whether that relationship will enrich your life and make you become the best version of yourself. I have traveled both paths.

Like I said I have no use for gods. I gave up the idea of imaginary friends when I was 9 years old.

Like I said... path not traveled. It's your loss.

No I haven't lost a thing.

How would you know? You never tested it.

I never shot heroin either but I think I'm better of not having tested it.

Agreed. But that's a false analogy. Got anymore disingenuous arguments?

 

[Blues Man]

The data overwhelmingly shows that man is a spiritual being. It is for good reason that David Foster Wallace said that we all worship something and the only choice in the matter is what we choose to worship. We are literally hardwired for it. Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. When we look at the data today we see that more and more people are rejecting organized religion but have not abandoned their belief that they are more than just matter or that there is a force which connects or binds us all. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic we became the less satisfied we became.

What data proves there is some spirit that exists after a person dies?

We have elevated our minds which are merely a function of the brain and by extension the body into some mystical force

Who knows what happens when consciousness makes the next leap? Maybe you will get to find out one day.

Of course faith isn't about dying, faith is about living.

Then why so much emphasis on the afterlife?

I never thought there was. You are the one who keeps bringing it up.

Of course there is.

Really? Which religions and what is your basis for that belief?

Christianity, Islam, Judaism are all premised on the immortal spirit originating in some divine realm to which they will return if they live in accordance to the rules set down by the god they worship.

No. They all premise on how to live life and not live life. You have made the assumption that it is for eternal reward and eternal punishment rather than experiencing existence to the fullest to become the best version of yourself that you can be.

Can you show me the texts which support your claim that the objective of Christianity, Islam, Judaism is to return to the immortal spirit if they live in accordance to the rules set down by the god they worship?

And what about the other major religions?

How to live so as to be rewarded with eternal life

There is always the promise of an afterlife as a reward. Not one of those religions say that if you live according to their rules that your existence will simply end or that there is nothing after death.

No. How to live life to experience existence to its fullest and become the best version of yourself. I've never once heard a sermon in mass about eternal damnation, salvation or heaven and hell. Not once. I have heard plenty of sermons about how having a personal relationship enriches my life though.

So... where are the texts that support your position?

And what about the other major religions you didn't mention?

1.8. Assurance of Eternal Rewards | Bible.org

The Doctrine of the Bema A prominent doctrine of the New Testament concerns the Doctrine of Rewards and the Judgment Seat of Christ. It is a doctrine often ignored or, when taught, it is misrepresented because of the term “judgment” that is used in translating the Greek text. Commenting on this...

bible.org

True Islam - Rewards of Paradise for men only?

True Islam is derived from the Quran and not from the traditions or cultures of Muslim people

www.quran-islam.org

How many verses focus on eternal reward and punishment in the Bible? And how many don't? Only then can you make an assessment what the book is actually teaching. Pointing to a few verses out of thousands and claiming that's what the bible is teaching is disingenuous at best.Here

You cannot deny the promise of eternal rewards in the religions I mentioned. The entire premise of the rules on living is that if you do what god says you will be rewarded.

46 Bible Verses about Reward here's 46 mentions of rewards for a start.

I deny that that is the central focus of any religion's teaching. I thought I made that clear.

Again... Pointing to a few verses out of thousands and claiming that's what the bible is teaching is disingenuous at best.

if everything in a religion is based on the divine reward then the entire reason for following the rules is the reward.

If there were no mention or promise of any rewards from god then you would be correct.

Do this and god rewards you. Do that and god doesn't reward you or he punishes you.

It's carrot and stick all the way through.

 

[Blues Man]

[

It always makes me scratch my head when I read about people not believing in God because He DOESN'T do magical things for them.

No faith. Matthew 17:20

How many mountains have you seen being moved lately? You know somebody would have done it by now if it was possible.

Depends on how you took it. But let's assume it was meant to be taken literally, how do you know what the limit of consciousness is?

Christians crow about how accurate the bible is except for the parts where they need an excuse to ignore it. I'm just saying there aren't any mountains jumping back and forth.

I suspect there may be no passages you would accept. You think it's all fairytales, right?

There is profound wisdom and universal truth to be found in the Bible. I could never compare it with a simple fairy tale. Much of it is true, even if those events depicted never really happened. Unfortunately, the more I studied it, the less reason I found to believe in a loving, all powerful god who does such horrible things.

Interesting. All I can tell you is that the Jews believed God was loving, so maybe it's your understanding of what you are reading that is flawed. As for events depicted never happening, not sure what you are referring to but if you are reading it literally I can understand your confusion.

I did not come to believe in God by reading other people's perception of God. I came to believe in God through observations of the natural world, myself, others, logic and experience. It was only then that I was able to make sense of the various teachings of ancient man. All I can tell you is that my confirmation came from experiencing God firsthand and witnessing the transformations which ensued. The proof is always in the pudding and my life has been enriched beyond measure for making that pudding.

If you don't feel that something is missing or the need to transform yourself, then don't.

I feel the need to transform myself every day. There are always new goals to accomplish, and imperfections to correct. You don't need the fear of an omnipotent judgmental being to want to better yourself. I want to better myself for me and the ones I love, not because I'm afraid of what some imagined all knowing taskmaster will do to me if I don't.

It's not about fear. It's about love.

Right. The love of keeping your ass out of an imaginary fire. That's what it all comes down to. Well, that, and an inordinate sense of superiority.

religion plays to greed and fear and always has

That doesn't sound like a functional advantage.

It is

How many billions of dollars are given to religions annually?

Bitter much?

Why would I be bitter?

I never gave money to any religion.

religion plays of the fear of death and the greed of those wanting eternal bliss.

Because you haven't filled your God void. Which is why you are here arguing against the beliefs of others; making straw-men arguments like religion plays on the fear of death and the greed of those wanting eternal bliss.

I already showed you how Darwin says you are wrong. Natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago.

I have no god void. I have no use for gods because they are imaginary.

and the definition for spirituality has become so vague as to be meaningless.

Path not taken so you have never tested it and don't know.

If you believe that you are more than matter, then you would be spiritual. If you believe you are only matter, then you are a materialist. Can't get anymore simple or succinct than that.

I was exposed to religion when I was young. I realized quite early that I had no need for it.

Religion isn't God. Why are you equivocating?

I'm not. I have no use for gods therefore I have no use for religion.

I never equated them. That's you making shit up again

The path you didn't take was entering into a relationship with God. That is what you have never tested. Your response to that was you were exposed to religion when you were young and realized you had no use for it. That's you equivocating religion with God. They are two different things. So, no, I didn't make anything up.

So I will say again, you have never tested having a relationship with God so you have never traveled down that path and cannot hold an informed opinion on whether that relationship will enrich your life and make you become the best version of yourself. I have traveled both paths.

Like I said I have no use for gods. I gave up the idea of imaginary friends when I was 9 years old.

Like I said... path not traveled. It's your loss.

No I haven't lost a thing.

How would you know? You never tested it.

I never shot heroin either but I think I'm better of not having tested it.

Agreed. But that's a false analogy. Got anymore disingenuous arguments?

It's a perfectly fine analogy. There are lots of things I haven't tested and yet I know I have no use for them

 

[Taz]

Does god still love me even if I see no proof of said god?

Yes. Why not? He still loves you even though you reject Him.

lol, not reject, see no proof for. If I see real proof, I’ll accept it/him/her.

If that were the case, taz, you wouldn't deny that the only options which exist are God exists or God doesn't exist. Your reluctance to accept this simple binary proposition as well as your reluctance to accept the universe popping into existence from nothing being hardwired to produce intelligence proves you are lying. You fear examination because you want to reject God.

God exists, god doesn't exist, and I don't know either way for lack of proof. It's an agnostic position. Deal with it.

So then you agree that...

At the heart of this debate is whether or not the material world was created by spirit. If the material world were not created by spirit, then everything which has occurred since the beginning of space and time are products of the material world. Everything which is incorporeal proceeded from the corporeal. There is no middle ground. There is no other option. Either the material world was created by spirit or it wasn't. All other options will simplify to one of these two lowest common denominators which are mutually exclusive.

It's really very simple. We don't know how the universe was made, by what/who, and why. You're locked into having already decided what the deal is, and it proves your position. I'm happy for you, but that doesn't work for thinking people.

 

[ding]

The data overwhelmingly shows that man is a spiritual being. It is for good reason that David Foster Wallace said that we all worship something and the only choice in the matter is what we choose to worship. We are literally hardwired for it. Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. When we look at the data today we see that more and more people are rejecting organized religion but have not abandoned their belief that they are more than just matter or that there is a force which connects or binds us all. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic we became the less satisfied we became.

What data proves there is some spirit that exists after a person dies?

We have elevated our minds which are merely a function of the brain and by extension the body into some mystical force

Who knows what happens when consciousness makes the next leap? Maybe you will get to find out one day.

Of course faith isn't about dying, faith is about living.

Then why so much emphasis on the afterlife?

I never thought there was. You are the one who keeps bringing it up.

Of course there is.

Really? Which religions and what is your basis for that belief?

Christianity, Islam, Judaism are all premised on the immortal spirit originating in some divine realm to which they will return if they live in accordance to the rules set down by the god they worship.

No. They all premise on how to live life and not live life. You have made the assumption that it is for eternal reward and eternal punishment rather than experiencing existence to the fullest to become the best version of yourself that you can be.

Can you show me the texts which support your claim that the objective of Christianity, Islam, Judaism is to return to the immortal spirit if they live in accordance to the rules set down by the god they worship?

And what about the other major religions?

How to live so as to be rewarded with eternal life

There is always the promise of an afterlife as a reward. Not one of those religions say that if you live according to their rules that your existence will simply end or that there is nothing after death.

No. How to live life to experience existence to its fullest and become the best version of yourself. I've never once heard a sermon in mass about eternal damnation, salvation or heaven and hell. Not once. I have heard plenty of sermons about how having a personal relationship enriches my life though.

So... where are the texts that support your position?

And what about the other major religions you didn't mention?

1.8. Assurance of Eternal Rewards | Bible.org

The Doctrine of the Bema A prominent doctrine of the New Testament concerns the Doctrine of Rewards and the Judgment Seat of Christ. It is a doctrine often ignored or, when taught, it is misrepresented because of the term “judgment” that is used in translating the Greek text. Commenting on this...

bible.org

True Islam - Rewards of Paradise for men only?

True Islam is derived from the Quran and not from the traditions or cultures of Muslim people

www.quran-islam.org

How many verses focus on eternal reward and punishment in the Bible? And how many don't? Only then can you make an assessment what the book is actually teaching. Pointing to a few verses out of thousands and claiming that's what the bible is teaching is disingenuous at best.Here

You cannot deny the promise of eternal rewards in the religions I mentioned. The entire premise of the rules on living is that if you do what god says you will be rewarded.

46 Bible Verses about Reward here's 46 mentions of rewards for a start.

I deny that that is the central focus of any religion's teaching. I thought I made that clear.

Again... Pointing to a few verses out of thousands and claiming that's what the bible is teaching is disingenuous at best.

if everything in a religion is based on the divine reward then the entire reason for following the rules is the reward.

If there were no mention or promise of any rewards from god then you would be correct.

Do this and god rewards you. Do that and god doesn't reward you or he punishes you.

It's carrot and stick all the way through.

That's my point. If everything in a religion were based upon divine reward and punishment then it would be in every verse and it's not. It's hardly mentioned.

You have created a straw man to rationalize your choice.

 

[Blues Man]

The data overwhelmingly shows that man is a spiritual being. It is for good reason that David Foster Wallace said that we all worship something and the only choice in the matter is what we choose to worship. We are literally hardwired for it. Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. When we look at the data today we see that more and more people are rejecting organized religion but have not abandoned their belief that they are more than just matter or that there is a force which connects or binds us all. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic we became the less satisfied we became.

What data proves there is some spirit that exists after a person dies?

We have elevated our minds which are merely a function of the brain and by extension the body into some mystical force

Who knows what happens when consciousness makes the next leap? Maybe you will get to find out one day.

Of course faith isn't about dying, faith is about living.

Then why so much emphasis on the afterlife?

I never thought there was. You are the one who keeps bringing it up.

Of course there is.

Really? Which religions and what is your basis for that belief?

Christianity, Islam, Judaism are all premised on the immortal spirit originating in some divine realm to which they will return if they live in accordance to the rules set down by the god they worship.

No. They all premise on how to live life and not live life. You have made the assumption that it is for eternal reward and eternal punishment rather than experiencing existence to the fullest to become the best version of yourself that you can be.

Can you show me the texts which support your claim that the objective of Christianity, Islam, Judaism is to return to the immortal spirit if they live in accordance to the rules set down by the god they worship?

And what about the other major religions?

How to live so as to be rewarded with eternal life

There is always the promise of an afterlife as a reward. Not one of those religions say that if you live according to their rules that your existence will simply end or that there is nothing after death.

No. How to live life to experience existence to its fullest and become the best version of yourself. I've never once heard a sermon in mass about eternal damnation, salvation or heaven and hell. Not once. I have heard plenty of sermons about how having a personal relationship enriches my life though.

So... where are the texts that support your position?

And what about the other major religions you didn't mention?

1.8. Assurance of Eternal Rewards | Bible.org

The Doctrine of the Bema A prominent doctrine of the New Testament concerns the Doctrine of Rewards and the Judgment Seat of Christ. It is a doctrine often ignored or, when taught, it is misrepresented because of the term “judgment” that is used in translating the Greek text. Commenting on this...

bible.org

True Islam - Rewards of Paradise for men only?

True Islam is derived from the Quran and not from the traditions or cultures of Muslim people

www.quran-islam.org

How many verses focus on eternal reward and punishment in the Bible? And how many don't? Only then can you make an assessment what the book is actually teaching. Pointing to a few verses out of thousands and claiming that's what the bible is teaching is disingenuous at best.Here

You cannot deny the promise of eternal rewards in the religions I mentioned. The entire premise of the rules on living is that if you do what god says you will be rewarded.

46 Bible Verses about Reward here's 46 mentions of rewards for a start.

I deny that that is the central focus of any religion's teaching. I thought I made that clear.

Again... Pointing to a few verses out of thousands and claiming that's what the bible is teaching is disingenuous at best.

if everything in a religion is based on the divine reward then the entire reason for following the rules is the reward.

If there were no mention or promise of any rewards from god then you would be correct.

Do this and god rewards you. Do that and god doesn't reward you or he punishes you.

It's carrot and stick all the way through.

That's my point. If everything in a religion were based upon divine reward and punishment then it would be in every verse and it's not. It's hardly mentioned.

You have created a straw man to rationalize your choice.

How many times does the goal need to be mentioned for you to admit that it is the goal?

 

[ding]

[

It always makes me scratch my head when I read about people not believing in God because He DOESN'T do magical things for them.

No faith. Matthew 17:20

How many mountains have you seen being moved lately? You know somebody would have done it by now if it was possible.

Depends on how you took it. But let's assume it was meant to be taken literally, how do you know what the limit of consciousness is?

Christians crow about how accurate the bible is except for the parts where they need an excuse to ignore it. I'm just saying there aren't any mountains jumping back and forth.

I suspect there may be no passages you would accept. You think it's all fairytales, right?

There is profound wisdom and universal truth to be found in the Bible. I could never compare it with a simple fairy tale. Much of it is true, even if those events depicted never really happened. Unfortunately, the more I studied it, the less reason I found to believe in a loving, all powerful god who does such horrible things.

Interesting. All I can tell you is that the Jews believed God was loving, so maybe it's your understanding of what you are reading that is flawed. As for events depicted never happening, not sure what you are referring to but if you are reading it literally I can understand your confusion.

I did not come to believe in God by reading other people's perception of God. I came to believe in God through observations of the natural world, myself, others, logic and experience. It was only then that I was able to make sense of the various teachings of ancient man. All I can tell you is that my confirmation came from experiencing God firsthand and witnessing the transformations which ensued. The proof is always in the pudding and my life has been enriched beyond measure for making that pudding.

If you don't feel that something is missing or the need to transform yourself, then don't.

I feel the need to transform myself every day. There are always new goals to accomplish, and imperfections to correct. You don't need the fear of an omnipotent judgmental being to want to better yourself. I want to better myself for me and the ones I love, not because I'm afraid of what some imagined all knowing taskmaster will do to me if I don't.

It's not about fear. It's about love.

Right. The love of keeping your ass out of an imaginary fire. That's what it all comes down to. Well, that, and an inordinate sense of superiority.

religion plays to greed and fear and always has

That doesn't sound like a functional advantage.

It is

How many billions of dollars are given to religions annually?

Bitter much?

Why would I be bitter?

I never gave money to any religion.

religion plays of the fear of death and the greed of those wanting eternal bliss.

Because you haven't filled your God void. Which is why you are here arguing against the beliefs of others; making straw-men arguments like religion plays on the fear of death and the greed of those wanting eternal bliss.

I already showed you how Darwin says you are wrong. Natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago.

I have no god void. I have no use for gods because they are imaginary.

and the definition for spirituality has become so vague as to be meaningless.

Path not taken so you have never tested it and don't know.

If you believe that you are more than matter, then you would be spiritual. If you believe you are only matter, then you are a materialist. Can't get anymore simple or succinct than that.

I was exposed to religion when I was young. I realized quite early that I had no need for it.

Religion isn't God. Why are you equivocating?

I'm not. I have no use for gods therefore I have no use for religion.

I never equated them. That's you making shit up again

The path you didn't take was entering into a relationship with God. That is what you have never tested. Your response to that was you were exposed to religion when you were young and realized you had no use for it. That's you equivocating religion with God. They are two different things. So, no, I didn't make anything up.

So I will say again, you have never tested having a relationship with God so you have never traveled down that path and cannot hold an informed opinion on whether that relationship will enrich your life and make you become the best version of yourself. I have traveled both paths.

Like I said I have no use for gods. I gave up the idea of imaginary friends when I was 9 years old.

Like I said... path not traveled. It's your loss.

No I haven't lost a thing.

How would you know? You never tested it.

I never shot heroin either but I think I'm better of not having tested it.

Agreed. But that's a false analogy. Got anymore disingenuous arguments?

It's a perfectly fine analogy. There are lots of things I haven't tested and yet I know I have no use for them

One is an overwhelming force for evil and the other is an overwhelming force for good, so no, it's not. It's just you rationalizing your choice.

 

[ding]

The data overwhelmingly shows that man is a spiritual being. It is for good reason that David Foster Wallace said that we all worship something and the only choice in the matter is what we choose to worship. We are literally hardwired for it. Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. When we look at the data today we see that more and more people are rejecting organized religion but have not abandoned their belief that they are more than just matter or that there is a force which connects or binds us all. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic we became the less satisfied we became.

What data proves there is some spirit that exists after a person dies?

We have elevated our minds which are merely a function of the brain and by extension the body into some mystical force

Who knows what happens when consciousness makes the next leap? Maybe you will get to find out one day.

Of course faith isn't about dying, faith is about living.

Then why so much emphasis on the afterlife?

I never thought there was. You are the one who keeps bringing it up.

Of course there is.

Really? Which religions and what is your basis for that belief?

Christianity, Islam, Judaism are all premised on the immortal spirit originating in some divine realm to which they will return if they live in accordance to the rules set down by the god they worship.

No. They all premise on how to live life and not live life. You have made the assumption that it is for eternal reward and eternal punishment rather than experiencing existence to the fullest to become the best version of yourself that you can be.

Can you show me the texts which support your claim that the objective of Christianity, Islam, Judaism is to return to the immortal spirit if they live in accordance to the rules set down by the god they worship?

And what about the other major religions?

How to live so as to be rewarded with eternal life

There is always the promise of an afterlife as a reward. Not one of those religions say that if you live according to their rules that your existence will simply end or that there is nothing after death.

No. How to live life to experience existence to its fullest and become the best version of yourself. I've never once heard a sermon in mass about eternal damnation, salvation or heaven and hell. Not once. I have heard plenty of sermons about how having a personal relationship enriches my life though.

So... where are the texts that support your position?

And what about the other major religions you didn't mention?

1.8. Assurance of Eternal Rewards | Bible.org

The Doctrine of the Bema A prominent doctrine of the New Testament concerns the Doctrine of Rewards and the Judgment Seat of Christ. It is a doctrine often ignored or, when taught, it is misrepresented because of the term “judgment” that is used in translating the Greek text. Commenting on this...

bible.org

True Islam - Rewards of Paradise for men only?

True Islam is derived from the Quran and not from the traditions or cultures of Muslim people

www.quran-islam.org

How many verses focus on eternal reward and punishment in the Bible? And how many don't? Only then can you make an assessment what the book is actually teaching. Pointing to a few verses out of thousands and claiming that's what the bible is teaching is disingenuous at best.Here

You cannot deny the promise of eternal rewards in the religions I mentioned. The entire premise of the rules on living is that if you do what god says you will be rewarded.

46 Bible Verses about Reward here's 46 mentions of rewards for a start.

I deny that that is the central focus of any religion's teaching. I thought I made that clear.

Again... Pointing to a few verses out of thousands and claiming that's what the bible is teaching is disingenuous at best.

if everything in a religion is based on the divine reward then the entire reason for following the rules is the reward.

If there were no mention or promise of any rewards from god then you would be correct.

Do this and god rewards you. Do that and god doesn't reward you or he punishes you.

It's carrot and stick all the way through.

That's my point. If everything in a religion were based upon divine reward and punishment then it would be in every verse and it's not. It's hardly mentioned.

You have created a straw man to rationalize your choice.

How many times does the goal need to be mentioned for you to admit that it is the goal?

Show me every verse where it is mentioned so that the proper context can be established. There aren't that many.

 

[Blues Man]

[

It always makes me scratch my head when I read about people not believing in God because He DOESN'T do magical things for them.

No faith. Matthew 17:20

How many mountains have you seen being moved lately? You know somebody would have done it by now if it was possible.

Depends on how you took it. But let's assume it was meant to be taken literally, how do you know what the limit of consciousness is?

Christians crow about how accurate the bible is except for the parts where they need an excuse to ignore it. I'm just saying there aren't any mountains jumping back and forth.

I suspect there may be no passages you would accept. You think it's all fairytales, right?

There is profound wisdom and universal truth to be found in the Bible. I could never compare it with a simple fairy tale. Much of it is true, even if those events depicted never really happened. Unfortunately, the more I studied it, the less reason I found to believe in a loving, all powerful god who does such horrible things.

Interesting. All I can tell you is that the Jews believed God was loving, so maybe it's your understanding of what you are reading that is flawed. As for events depicted never happening, not sure what you are referring to but if you are reading it literally I can understand your confusion.

I did not come to believe in God by reading other people's perception of God. I came to believe in God through observations of the natural world, myself, others, logic and experience. It was only then that I was able to make sense of the various teachings of ancient man. All I can tell you is that my confirmation came from experiencing God firsthand and witnessing the transformations which ensued. The proof is always in the pudding and my life has been enriched beyond measure for making that pudding.

If you don't feel that something is missing or the need to transform yourself, then don't.

I feel the need to transform myself every day. There are always new goals to accomplish, and imperfections to correct. You don't need the fear of an omnipotent judgmental being to want to better yourself. I want to better myself for me and the ones I love, not because I'm afraid of what some imagined all knowing taskmaster will do to me if I don't.

It's not about fear. It's about love.

Right. The love of keeping your ass out of an imaginary fire. That's what it all comes down to. Well, that, and an inordinate sense of superiority.

religion plays to greed and fear and always has

That doesn't sound like a functional advantage.

It is

How many billions of dollars are given to religions annually?

Bitter much?

Why would I be bitter?

I never gave money to any religion.

religion plays of the fear of death and the greed of those wanting eternal bliss.

Because you haven't filled your God void. Which is why you are here arguing against the beliefs of others; making straw-men arguments like religion plays on the fear of death and the greed of those wanting eternal bliss.

I already showed you how Darwin says you are wrong. Natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago.

I have no god void. I have no use for gods because they are imaginary.

and the definition for spirituality has become so vague as to be meaningless.

Path not taken so you have never tested it and don't know.

If you believe that you are more than matter, then you would be spiritual. If you believe you are only matter, then you are a materialist. Can't get anymore simple or succinct than that.

I was exposed to religion when I was young. I realized quite early that I had no need for it.

Religion isn't God. Why are you equivocating?

I'm not. I have no use for gods therefore I have no use for religion.

I never equated them. That's you making shit up again

The path you didn't take was entering into a relationship with God. That is what you have never tested. Your response to that was you were exposed to religion when you were young and realized you had no use for it. That's you equivocating religion with God. They are two different things. So, no, I didn't make anything up.

So I will say again, you have never tested having a relationship with God so you have never traveled down that path and cannot hold an informed opinion on whether that relationship will enrich your life and make you become the best version of yourself. I have traveled both paths.

Like I said I have no use for gods. I gave up the idea of imaginary friends when I was 9 years old.

Like I said... path not traveled. It's your loss.

No I haven't lost a thing.

How would you know? You never tested it.

I never shot heroin either but I think I'm better of not having tested it.

Agreed. But that's a false analogy. Got anymore disingenuous arguments?

It's a perfectly fine analogy. There are lots of things I haven't tested and yet I know I have no use for them

One is an overwhelming force for evil and the other is an overwhelming force for good, so no, it's not. It's just you rationalizing your choice.

Good and evil are man made constructs.

And heroin ( opiates) do have beneficial uses. Nothing is simply black or white.

 

[ding]

Does god still love me even if I see no proof of said god?

Yes. Why not? He still loves you even though you reject Him.

lol, not reject, see no proof for. If I see real proof, I’ll accept it/him/her.

If that were the case, taz, you wouldn't deny that the only options which exist are God exists or God doesn't exist. Your reluctance to accept this simple binary proposition as well as your reluctance to accept the universe popping into existence from nothing being hardwired to produce intelligence proves you are lying. You fear examination because you want to reject God.

God exists, god doesn't exist, and I don't know either way for lack of proof. It's an agnostic position. Deal with it.

So then you agree that...

At the heart of this debate is whether or not the material world was created by spirit. If the material world were not created by spirit, then everything which has occurred since the beginning of space and time are products of the material world. Everything which is incorporeal proceeded from the corporeal. There is no middle ground. There is no other option. Either the material world was created by spirit or it wasn't. All other options will simplify to one of these two lowest common denominators which are mutually exclusive.

It's really very simple. We don't know how the universe was made, by what/who, and why. You're locked into having already decided what the deal is, and it proves your position. I'm happy for you, but that doesn't work for thinking people.

You don't need to know. What we do know is that it started as a tiny spec and was hardwired to produce intelligence.

 

[Blues Man]

The data overwhelmingly shows that man is a spiritual being. It is for good reason that David Foster Wallace said that we all worship something and the only choice in the matter is what we choose to worship. We are literally hardwired for it. Throughout history every society has overwhelmingly held the belief that man is more than just matter and that there is a higher power than man. When we look at the data today we see that more and more people are rejecting organized religion but have not abandoned their belief that they are more than just matter or that there is a force which connects or binds us all. From the atheist's vantage point these beliefs exist because of evolutionary forces. But the reality is that even that argument confirms that spirituality offers a functional advantage over materialism. According to natural selection there are two main components; functional advantage and transfer of functional advantage to the next generation. So even natural selection confirms that spirituality is a behavior which leads to success. Otherwise, according to natural selection, it would have been abandoned long ago. As mankind has gained more and more knowledge of his natural surroundings his desire for spirituality has not diminished. In fact, the more materialistic we became the less satisfied we became.

What data proves there is some spirit that exists after a person dies?

We have elevated our minds which are merely a function of the brain and by extension the body into some mystical force

Who knows what happens when consciousness makes the next leap? Maybe you will get to find out one day.

Of course faith isn't about dying, faith is about living.

Then why so much emphasis on the afterlife?

I never thought there was. You are the one who keeps bringing it up.

Of course there is.

Really? Which religions and what is your basis for that belief?

Christianity, Islam, Judaism are all premised on the immortal spirit originating in some divine realm to which they will return if they live in accordance to the rules set down by the god they worship.

No. They all premise on how to live life and not live life. You have made the assumption that it is for eternal reward and eternal punishment rather than experiencing existence to the fullest to become the best version of yourself that you can be.

Can you show me the texts which support your claim that the objective of Christianity, Islam, Judaism is to return to the immortal spirit if they live in accordance to the rules set down by the god they worship?

And what about the other major religions?

How to live so as to be rewarded with eternal life

There is always the promise of an afterlife as a reward. Not one of those religions say that if you live according to their rules that your existence will simply end or that there is nothing after death.

No. How to live life to experience existence to its fullest and become the best version of yourself. I've never once heard a sermon in mass about eternal damnation, salvation or heaven and hell. Not once. I have heard plenty of sermons about how having a personal relationship enriches my life though.

So... where are the texts that support your position?

And what about the other major religions you didn't mention?

1.8. Assurance of Eternal Rewards | Bible.org

The Doctrine of the Bema A prominent doctrine of the New Testament concerns the Doctrine of Rewards and the Judgment Seat of Christ. It is a doctrine often ignored or, when taught, it is misrepresented because of the term “judgment” that is used in translating the Greek text. Commenting on this...

bible.org

True Islam - Rewards of Paradise for men only?

True Islam is derived from the Quran and not from the traditions or cultures of Muslim people

www.quran-islam.org

How many verses focus on eternal reward and punishment in the Bible? And how many don't? Only then can you make an assessment what the book is actually teaching. Pointing to a few verses out of thousands and claiming that's what the bible is teaching is disingenuous at best.Here

You cannot deny the promise of eternal rewards in the religions I mentioned. The entire premise of the rules on living is that if you do what god says you will be rewarded.

46 Bible Verses about Reward here's 46 mentions of rewards for a start.

I deny that that is the central focus of any religion's teaching. I thought I made that clear.

Again... Pointing to a few verses out of thousands and claiming that's what the bible is teaching is disingenuous at best.

if everything in a religion is based on the divine reward then the entire reason for following the rules is the reward.

If there were no mention or promise of any rewards from god then you would be correct.

Do this and god rewards you. Do that and god doesn't reward you or he punishes you.

It's carrot and stick all the way through.

That's my point. If everything in a religion were based upon divine reward and punishment then it would be in every verse and it's not. It's hardly mentioned.

You have created a straw man to rationalize your choice.

How many times does the goal need to be mentioned for you to admit that it is the goal?

Show me every verse where it is mentioned so that the proper context can be established. There aren't that many.

I linked you to 46 of them

Everyone knows that in football the one and only goal of the offense is to score points. But there is far more time dedicated on how to move the ball down the field than there is on the touchdown itself.