Dogs refuse to eat vegan "meat"...

[toobfreak]

We can simply disagree. We have different worldviews as you said, you don't believe in the creation or in God.

Look, Kathy, I've tried hard as I can to avoid reading your worldviews in this thread for my sanity's sake despite my religious propensities as people like you, forgive me for saying this, just give religion a bad name by actually driving people away from it and turning them off, but you must know that nature isn't conditional on your worldview perceptions!

Nature derives from the physical universe determined by our physical laws (or to put it in a personal theological framework is the absolute manifestation of the Supreme Creator's hand on the only plane that we can directly see and relate to). However you want to look at it, Nature / Mother Nature is the direct result of billions of factors juxtapositioning themselves into perfect harmony with each other over billions of years into perfect balance, irregardless of people's views of it, and it is man forever out of harmony with nature that is almost always the problem, not nature herself.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for nature to be corrupted, only contaminated by factors in conflict with it, such as us.

 

[Coyote]

We can simply disagree. We have different worldviews as you said, you don't believe in the creation or in God.

If you mean as a strictly Christian concept, then you right. If you mean something broader, I would disagree, I’m not an atheist.

 

[kathydunn]

New research is upending how we think about intelligence … without a brain or even neurons. To that extent, we would have to rethink the concept of “pain” don’t you think? Pain is a signal of distress.

Here is one interesting example:

A memory without a brain

Researchers have identified how the slime mold Physarum polycephalum saves memories -- although it has no nervous system.

www.sciencedaily.com

Because of the kind of God I believe in, the kind of world he created, the Bible's description of who God is as love, my own experience with God in relationship with him, I do not believe he would create a food source designed to be taken and eaten but then ascribe the ability for these living organisms to feel excruciating pain. This is not the kind of God the Bible supports. So that's number one. Number two, I believe the science as is described in this following article. Yes, we may discover a whole lot about plants and how they communicate and how intelligent they are. But just like the geno that supposedly exists somewhere where an ape turns into a man, but we've never seen it happen nor have we ever been able to locate the geno, It is impossible for plants to feel the kind of pain that sentient beings such as humans, animals and fish or any creature with a brain and nervous system can. Anesthetics and plants: no pain, no brain, and therefore no consciousness

 

[kathydunn]

Look, Kathy, I've tried hard as I can to avoid reading your worldviews in this thread for my sanity's sake despite my religious propensities as people like you, forgive me for saying this, just give religion a bad name by actually driving people away from it and turning them off, but you must know that nature isn't conditional on your worldview perceptions!

Nature derives from the physical universe determined by our physical laws (or to put it in a personal theological framework is the absolute manifestation of the Supreme Creator's hand on the only plane that we can directly see and relate to). However you want to look at it, Nature / Mother Nature is the direct result of billions of factors juxtapositioning themselves into perfect harmony with each other over billions of years into perfect balance, irregardless of people's views of it, and it is man forever out of harmony with nature that is almost always the problem, not nature herself.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for nature to be corrupted, only contaminated by factors in conflict with it, such as us.

Don't read them then. This wasn't addressed to you. There are lots of different viewpoints in this forum. We all deserve respect. As I respect yours, I have not degraded or belittled you.

 

[Coyote]

Because of the kind of God I believe in, the Bible's description of who God is as love, my own experience with God in relationship with him, I do not believe he would create a food source designed to be taken and eaten but then ascribe the ability for these living organisms to feel excruciating pain. This is not the kind of God the Bible supports. So that's number one. Number two, I believe the science as is described in this following article. Yes, we may discover a whole lot about plants and how they communicate and how intelligent they are. But just like the geno that supposedly exists somewhere where an ape turns into a man, but we've never seen it happen nor have we ever been able to locate the geno, It is impossible for plants to feel the kind of pain that sentient beings such as humans and animals and fish or any creature with a brain and nervous system can. Anesthetics and plants: no pain, no brain, and therefore no consciousness

I don’t think we can be so certain a brain is required for conciousness. The more we learn about life, the less certain I am.

Why would God create pain at all? Why would he create predators that must eat meat to survive? In absence of predators, why does he allow herbivores to overpopulate, over graze and starve?

 

[kathydunn]

Nice wall of text! Your wall is boring, inaccurate., and irrelevant. Learn to use paragraphs!

Yes, Admiral, I totally see your point! Had I put paragraphs where they are needed and edited a little better, it might be more interesting and less boring to you. I humbly admit I am not a famous writer! I don't think I would describe what was said though as inaccurate; we all may see things a bit differently.

I live in Central Time. It was very very late when I wrote this, so my apologies for the wall of text! I should have left it till I was fresh to reply!

 

[buttercup]

Sorry! Normally I would agree, but she is ignoring the verse telling us eating meat is OK!

It appears that you didn't read post #234, because I addressed that, last night.

Let me try putting it in a different way. I'll use the example of marriage.

God created marriage and we know from reading Genesis 2 and also what Jesus said, what God's intent for marriage is (one man, one woman, in a loving, faithful, exclusive lifelong bond.)

Later, when sin came into the world, God permitted divorce in certain circumstances.

Does God allowing divorce mean that God WANTS us to choose divorce? No. It just means that in this temporary fallen world, God permitted it because of our hardness of heart (Those are Jesus' words, in Matt 19:8)

In other words, just because God permits something under certain restrictions, or "gives us over" to something doesn't mean that's what God wants us to do.

Again, God's perfect will is clear when we look at the bigger picture (the pre-Fall world, the restored peaceable kingdom to come, and the tons and tons of scriptures in between that tell us to be merciful, kind, gentle, caring and just.)

He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?

Micah 6:8

Btw, instead of using scriptures given to the hard-hearted Israelites thousands of years ago... a good question to ask is, how does God feel about the modern day animal industries?

I'm glad you asked. I did a video on that topic a couple years ago. I'll share it, for whoever wants to take a look. You have to be signed in to Google though, because YouTube got strict and put an age restriction on all videos like this. Just click the image below:

 

[kathydunn]

I don’t think we can be so certain a brain is required for conciousness. The more we learn about life, the less certain I am.

Why would God create pain at all? Why would he create predators that must eat meat to survive? In absence of predators, why does he allow herbivores to overpopulate, over graze and starve?

God did not create predators. Predation is a result of the Fall. Likely a direct result plus adaptation over time. Animals learned to become predators because the world that God created and intended had become corrupted, out of balance, when man fell into sin. Man's role over the animal kingdom was intended to be that of peaceful stewardship in God's image, which prior to the fall of man was still free of corruption and predation.

For us to experience pain as we do, and the animals as well, was not what God intended at all. We became subject to death when we fell and sinned against God. Everything under our Dominion became subject to death along with us.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

God did not create predators. Predation is a result of the Fall. Likely a direct result plus adaptation over time. Animals learned to become predators because the world that God created and intended had become corrupted, out of balance, when man fell into sin. Man's role over the animal kingdom was intended to be that of peaceful stewardship in God's image, which prior to the fall of man was still free of corruption and predation.

For us to experience pain as we do, and the animals as well, was not what God intended at all. We became subject to death when we fell and sinned against God. Everything under our Dominion became subject to death along with us.

Failed biology, huh?

 

[toobfreak]

We all deserve respect. As I respect yours, I have not degraded or belittled you.

Go ahead and try. You cannot degrade or belittle my statements because I'm not bloviating BS. I'm prepared to back up everything I say with facts gleened over a lifetime of serious study. Not everyone deserves respect. For instance, I don't respect Hitler for killing millions to promote his delusions of a master race, I don't respect Biden who has wantonly killed millions encouraging human trafficking across the border in the millions to an unprepared and overburdened nation all the while untold thousands of Americans are killed by the Chinese fentanyl brought in from China while he sneers with contempt when told the border that he won't even acknowledge as a problem is causing this. Terrible people do not deserve respect--- respect is reserved for honorable and noble deeds not evil and deviousness.

I don't respect people who make up their own reality then blind themselves to reason. I won't even go into your decision making process about what you "believe" based on silly, half-baked conjecture unsupported by any external modulus, such as anything which feels pain must not then have been intended as food or your designs on what constitutes consciousness based on your own limited concepts defined around how WE see it when it is very likely animals such as dolphins and whales may very well have an equal level of consciousness as people do but on a totally different order.

Science has even determined that plants can be proven to feel pain, so do please then stop eating them!

Your "reading" of the Bible does not interest me, if you are so interested in the interpretation of the Bible, then instead of just guessing and filling in the blanks to satiate your ego, you should seek out true holy men if you can find one who knows far more than you having devoted their lives to direct experience and study in the deep religions of the world going back thousands of years for your context first, much as any student seeks out a professor of learning at a university to understand math, science and philosophy rather than coming here to bloviate your half-baked views on others.

Oh and, PS: if you do not want an informed rebuttal to your nonsense, then please stop parading your silly notions you are not even prepared to back up with any externally addressable evidence before a discussion group when discussion, debate and rebuttal is the very /point/ of forums such as this.

 

[buttercup]

I don't respect people who make up their own reality then blind themselves to reason.

I don't want to speak for Kathy, but she isn't making up her own reality, she is a bible-believing Christian, and it seems that you have an entirely different worldview...so of course you're going to disagree with most of what she's saying. And that's OK, I highly doubt she expects someone with a different worldview to agree with everything she's saying. But she isn't making stuff up, or merely posting her opinion, what she's saying (as far as what I've seen) is scripturally supported.

I won't even go into your decision making process about what you "believe" based on silly, half-baked conjecture unsupported by any external modulus, such as anything which feels pain must not then have been intended as food

Hold on, hold on. Let's take a closer look at what you said here (the part I put in bold) because I'm sorry but I don't think you have thought this through.

The Christian God is a God of love, mercy, goodness, justice, etc.

Now, let's use some common sense. Would a God of love and mercy purposely create animals who:

a) can feel pain
b) have a strong will to live and enjoy life (and yes, animals do, this is demonstrably true)
c) are sentient, and have emotions

IF their true purpose was to be food?

In other words, would a good God, a God of love, WANT animals to be exploited, terrified, and experience emotional and physical pain and then brutally killed...to be "food" for us?

OR, would a God of love design food to be something that isn't sentient, that doesn't scream when you slice into it with a knife, something that doesn't have a personality and a desire to live and enjoy life?

Think about that and please be intellectually honest when you answer that question.

From a biblical perspective (which I don't expect you to agree with if you're not a Christian) there is no conflict there, because according to Genesis 1:29-30 and other scriptures, God did not create animals for the purpose of being food. Flesh-eating came many centuries later... in short because this is a fallen world, and there's more to it than that but I don't want to write a book here so I'll leave it at that.

Science has even determined that plants can be proven to feel pain, so do please then stop eating them!

Of all the objections to veganism, that one is BY FAR the worst. I'm sorry to be blunt, but it's the most asinine, embarrassingly idiotic "argument" of all, and it's also insincere and hypocritical. Why? Because IF that were true (which it isn't, but for the sake of argument let's say it is) it would make no sense to feed livestock billions of plants, and then kill the animal to eat... because that would result in FAR more plant "casualties." And if you actually believed your own argument, you'd want to avoid that much "pain" and "killing", right?

If that silly claim was true, you could minimize those "plant casualties" by just feeding yourself plants, instead of feeding people's "food" (billions of farm animals) plants too, causing a hell of a lot more "pain" and "death." (I put that in quotes because getting back to reality, plants do not feel pain, and the plantbased foods were specifically designed by God to be food, and our GOOD God of love and wisdom knew what He was doing.

(This thread has been going on for days and we've gotten WAY off topic, so I'm most likely not going to post on it anymore, but I just had to reply to your post, since Kathy was not around when you posted it.)

 

[buttercup]

OhPleaseJustQuit , what did I say in my previous post that you disagree with or think is funny? I don't have time right now to stick around, but I haven't been seeing actual arguments from you, or you stating specifically what you disagree with. Others here have been posting their thoughts in a sincere way, and even though I disagree with them, at least they've been mature enough to post arguments instead of just laughie emojis and nothing more. So please, go ahead and tell me what you disagreed with in my previous post.

 

[OhPleaseJustQuit]

OhPleaseJustQuit , what did I say in my previous post that you disagree with or think is funny? I don't have time right now to stick around, but I haven't been seeing actual arguments from you, or you stating specifically what you disagree with. Others here have been posting their thoughts in a sincere way, and even though I disagree with them, at least they've been mature enough to post arguments instead of just laughie emojis and nothing more. So please, go ahead and tell me what you disagreed with in my previous post.

Bye.

Don't let the door hit ya.

 

[Coyote]

God did not create predators. Predation is a result of the Fall. Likely a direct result plus adaptation over time. Animals learned to become predators because the world that God created and intended had become corrupted, out of balance, when man fell into sin. Man's role over the animal kingdom was intended to be that of peaceful stewardship in God's image, which prior to the fall of man was still free of corruption and predation.

That does not make sense to me. If you follow the story of creation, all creatures were created in the form they are now in. That means that obligate carnivore would have starved in Eden lacking the teeth, enzymes and digestive systems to process plant material. Those changes are not behavioral, they are evolutionary.

There is also the cycle of life that is interrupted when you delete an element. Predators kill an animal, but seldom consume it all. That leaves portions of it for scavengers: mammals like hyenas with specialized teeth and jaws and teeth for breaking bones, birds of many types, small mammals and insects. All eating meat because something has to break down a carcass. There are also other Great Families to consider: insects, fish, etc that are in the same cycles and it is perfectly tuned that losing an element can cause the system to crash.

When you look at something so perfect it’s impossible to imagine it so disrupted as it would be in your vision of Paradise. No population balancing. That is why my view trends towards paradise being that we are a part of this perfect incredible system that God created. Within the system we are close to God, outside of it, we are not.

For us to experience pain as we do, and the animals as well, was not what God intended at all. We became subject to death when we fell and sinned against God. Everything under our Dominion became subject to death along with us.

 

[Coyote]

I don't want to speak for Kathy, but she isn't making up her own reality, she is a bible-believing Christian, and it seems that you have an entirely different worldview...so of course you're going to disagree with most of what she's saying. And that's OK, I highly doubt she expects someone with a different worldview to agree with everything she's saying. But she isn't making stuff up, or merely posting her opinion, what she's saying (as far as what I've seen) is scripturally supported.



Hold on, hold on. Let's take a closer look at what you said here (the part I put in bold) because I'm sorry but I don't think you have thought this through.

The Christian God is a God of love, mercy, goodness, justice, etc.

Now, let's use some common sense. Would a God of love and mercy purposely create animals who:

a) can feel pain
b) have a strong will to live and enjoy life (and yes, animals do, this is demonstrably true)
c) are sentient, and have emotions

IF their true purpose was to be food?

In other words, would a good God, a God of love, WANT animals to be exploited, terrified, and experience emotional and physical pain and then brutally killed...to be "food" for us?

OR, would a God of love design food to be something that isn't sentient, that doesn't scream when you slice into it with a knife, something that doesn't have a personality and a desire to live and enjoy life?

Think about that and please be intellectually honest when you answer that question.

From a biblical perspective (which I don't expect you to agree with if you're not a Christian) there is no conflict there, because according to Genesis 1:29-30 and other scriptures, God did not create animals for the purpose of being food. Flesh-eating came many centuries later... in short because this is a fallen world, and there's more to it than that but I don't want to write a book here so I'll leave it at that.




Of all the objections to veganism, that one is BY FAR the worst. I'm sorry to be blunt, but it's the most asinine, embarrassingly idiotic "argument" of all, and it's also insincere and hypocritical. Why? Because IF that were true (which it isn't, but for the sake of argument let's say it is) it would make no sense to feed livestock billions of plants, and then kill the animal to eat... because that would result in FAR more plant "casualties." And if you actually believed your own argument, you'd want to avoid that much "pain" and "killing", right?

If that silly claim was true, you could minimize those "plant casualties" by just feeding yourself plants, instead of feeding people's "food" (billions of farm animals) plants too, causing a hell of a lot more "pain" and "death." (I put that in quotes because getting back to reality, plants do not feel pain, and the plantbased foods were specifically designed by God to be food, and our GOOD God of love and wisdom knew what He was doing.

(This thread has been going on for days and we've gotten WAY off topic, so I'm most likely not going to post on it anymore, but I just had to reply to your post, since Kathy was not around when you posted it.)

The topic has evolved….in a good way imo.

 

[toobfreak]

I don't want to speak for Kathy, but she isn't making up her own reality,

Really? Isn't that exactly what she is doing? Where in the Bible does it say: Thou Shall Not Eat Anything Which Feels Pain?

she is a bible-believing Christian, and it seems that you have an entirely different worldview...

I don't have any "worldview." That sounds like so much subjective PC garbage. And glancing over the rest of your post, I don't see anything else worth serious reading much less replying to.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Dog gets shocked by electric fence -- Donkey LAUGHS

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Of all the objections to veganism, that one is BY FAR the worst. I'm sorry to be blunt, but it's the most asinine, embarrassingly idiotic "argument" of all, and it's also insincere and hypocritical. Why? Because IF that were true (which it isn't, but for the sake of argument let's say it is) it would make no sense to feed livestock billions of plants, and then kill the animal to eat... because that would result in FAR more plant "casualties." And if you actually believed your own argument, you'd want to avoid that much "pain" and "killing", right?

It is. If they believed the nonsense they spew, not only would they quit eating carcasses, they'd stop eating all together. Let them show us how it's done

 

[westwall]

It is. If they believed the nonsense they spew, not only would they quit eating carcasses, they'd stop eating all together. Let them show us how it's done

The Bible is not something to base your eating habits on.

Just sayin.....

 

[Road Runner]

If vegan meat exists then so do Democrat Republicans.