Everyone should be in favor of reducing taxes on the "rich"

[Shogun]

Okay FINALLY we're getting somewhere. I see a few issues ones.

First as you pointed yurself pointed out the main reason jobs are leaving the U.S. is because of cheap labor. How do tariffs help that?

Secondly, what are we outsourcing? Primarily cheap labor and some manufacturing. Is it your hope we become a nation of plastic molders? Sounds lucrative.

The problem with an isolationist economy is that it will inflate the prices of goods. Your proposal also is a bit of overkill to cure 1-2% real unemployment (statistically it's impossible to get much below 4%).

Finally let's assume we do everything you say. How exactley does that get rid of capitalism. We would still have comepetition it just be within our borders.

tarrifs help to normalize the cost of goods to OUR living standard than reducing OUR living standard to that of a third world nation.


We are outsourcing jobs both in production and services. Kill nafta and bring call centers back to the US. Look at our greatest generation where a breadwinner could support a family on one income - producers for the most part. plastic molding? well, we cant ALL be java programmers. Supporting a middle class consisting of production jobs strengthens the middle class. Indeed, it WAS lucrative enough to raise a family at one time.


It's not overkill when your employment stats don't include the deflated value of labor and the overall lowered standard of living in relation to inflation. In other words, 5% increases on salaries are not as impressive as they once were. Sure, the NUMBERS look like an increase but the VALUE of such tell a different story. Of course capitalists will buck a system that is not quick to throw money at them. That is why the rest of us vote for a government that thinks more about a capitalist wallet.


I never said get rid of capitalism. I am firmly against "free market" capitalism. We cant expect the economic road we travel to NOT develop a cavernous potholes without regulation. The American people should not be expected to just sit bck and listen to some theoretical bullshit about the free market despite the effect is has on their lives. Child labor? regulated. Monopolies? regulated. THESE are necessities if capitalism is going to apply to everyone besides the top 2% that it truly benefits.

 

[Shogun]

Wow, so you finally hit on a fundamental axiom of the human condition. We are NOT created equal. Alex Rodriguez get's paid $25,000,000/yr because there is only one human being on the planet that can do what he does....him. A kid flipping burgers at Burger King gets $7.25/hr because about 6 BILLION people can do that.

Capitalism works because it is in harmony with human nature. We value what is rare. That means the fewer that can do a certain task that we need done, the more we value it and the more we will pay for it. That is a fundamental part of the core of our nature. Any economic system that denies our fundamental nature as human beings is doomed to eventual failure.

capitalism ONLY works for those who have capital, DESPITE human nature. Paris Hilton sure the fuck is a valuable product of capitalism, eh? Indeed, your doom and gloom predictions sure don't factor in every effort by capitalists to affect the outcome of socialism, eh? Weather or not everyone CAN provide a rare service doesn't consider that there are still those who CANT that ARE still part of this society. Like it or not. And, in a democracy, where capitalism was never mentioned in our founding documents, you sir are going to play by the rules that are voted in if you like it or not. You are free to leave the country and go live in Dubai.

 

[Bern80]

tarrifs help to normalize the cost of goods to OUR living standard than reducing OUR living standard to that of a third world nation.

And you accuse me of only using theory? That's all that is there. A theory. Why are tariffs enacted in the first place? Usually because companies like Toyota could sell there vehicles for less to people than domestic auto manufacturers. I would think one of your mentality would be able to see that if thing cost less for people here, that's a GOOD thing.

The flipside as you point out is now U.S. workers are at a real disadvantage which could lead to the outright loss of a company. It is most definatley a balancing act, but pure isolationism which sounds to be what you're proposing, has it's problems as well. Under your system the pendulum would go totally the other way. The high tariffs would make Toyotas so expensive here that there would be little market for them shoving a competitor out of the market place. Meaning that now the competitors left don't have to work as hard themselves in terms of quality, efficienty, etc. to compete which is ultimately a disservice to the consumer.

We are outsourcing jobs both in production and services. Kill nafta and bring call centers back to the US. Look at our greatest generation where a breadwinner could support a family on one income - producers for the most part. plastic molding? well, we cant ALL be java programmers. Supporting a middle class consisting of production jobs strengthens the middle class. Indeed, it WAS lucrative enough to raise a family at one time.

]You're kind of living in the past with your greatest generation spiel. Why were they the greatest generation? Really not because they were great, it was because at the time they didn't have to compete with other countries. Since then we have moved forward and those other countries like India and China are now where we were then. In time they will be in the same boat as we are now. Unless they propose what you propose and no body trades with anybody which will, again, inflate the prices of goods and service over what they would be if they were allowed to compete in a global market. You really aren't doing American's any favors by keeping them from figuring out how to do that. By employing and isolationist tacitc you've just show them they don't have to. So what if japan can build a superior automobile, it isn't going to get sold here, so what's the incentive to improve?

It's not overkill when your employment stats don't include the deflated value of labor and the overall lowered standard of living in relation to inflation. In other words, 5% increases on salaries are not as impressive as they once were. Sure, the NUMBERS look like an increase but the VALUE of such tell a different story. Of course capitalists will buck a system that is not quick to throw money at them. That is why the rest of us vote for a government that thinks more about a capitalist wallet.

Why are 5% increases not as impressive as they once were? Be specific. Do you have any evidence to support this reduced value theory of yours? Maybe that's the case and maybe it isn't, but no job is going to hold the same value forever. As Zoomie pointed out we place value in whatever is scarce. As technology improves that is also going to change what jobs we find most valuable. What's teh better alternative for a society? Figure out how to adapt and grow or become isolationist and avoid haveing to do that at all?

I never said get rid of capitalism. I am firmly against "free market" capitalism. We cant expect the economic road we travel to NOT develop a cavernous potholes without regulation. The American people should not be expected to just sit bck and listen to some theoretical bullshit about the free market despite the effect is has on their lives. Child labor? regulated. Monopolies? regulated. THESE are necessities if capitalism is going to apply to everyone besides the top 2% that it truly benefits.

They won't listen to your theoretical isolationist bullshit. Maybe you'll save some jobs here, meanwhile basic economics tells us the quality of the goods and service here will probably fall and the cost of goods and service will probably go up.

 

[Shogun]

And you accuse me of only using theory? That's all that is there. A theory. Why are tariffs enacted in the first place? Usually because companies like Toyota could sell there vehicles for less to people than domestic auto manufacturers. I would think one of your mentality would be able to see that if thing cost less for people here, that's a GOOD thing.

You ASKED what i'd do and I gave you and answer. You want EVIDENCE? Japan's auto market. YOUR problem is that you don't have a single shred of anything to back up your theoretical bullshit. I, on the other hand, HAVE more than excuses for this current FAILURE of an economy. And no, it's the wal mart excuse all over again. LOW COST IS NOT BENEFICIAL IF IT PUTS AMERICANS OUT OF WORK SINCE THEY ARE THE ONES YOU THINK ARE SUPPOSED TO BE OUT BUYING SHIT. With a lowered income comes a lowered ability to purchase. YOU are actually LOWERING our American standard of living by trying to get people hooked on cheap plastic shit from China. Which, PLEASE make me drop dource after source in tis thread regarding how many AMERICANS went out of business due to being undercut by wal mart for the sake for cheap plastic shit from china. PLEASE do that.




The flipside as you point out is now U.S. workers are at a real disadvantage which could lead to the outright loss of a company. It is most definatley a balancing act, but pure isolationism which sounds to be what you're proposing, has it's problems as well. Under your system the pendulum would go totally the other way. The high tariffs would make Toyotas so expensive here that there would be little market for them shoving a competitor out of the market place. Meaning that now the competitors left don't have to work as hard themselves in terms of quality, efficienty, etc. to compete which is ultimately a disservice to the consumer.


"having some problems" sure the hell isn't a phrase that a capitalist will admit to OR consider when looking at the faults of their chosen system, eh? Under my system TOYOTAS will cost as much or more than a CHEVY which makes the DOMESTIC PRODUCT (see employees with jobs) a greater value. We DO have AMERICAN competition without having to require foreign input. Competition between GM, Ford and Chevy are STILL AMERICANS AT WORK. How many SUVS do you think Japan is importing versus OUR quickness to import Toyotas? do you think they are evenly comparable? CLEARLY, THE INCLUSION OF JAPAN DIDNT BRING ABOUT THE COMPETITIVE DRIVE THAT YOU THINK WILL MAGICALLY HAPPEN SO FAR, eh?




You're kind of living in the past with your greatest generation spiel. Why were they the greatest generation? Really not because they were great, it was because at the time they didn't have to compete with other countries.

HA! yea.. looking back at an America age when a middle class thrived on production and single family incomes sure IS An unattainable pipe dream! sure, capitalist.. sure. NO, they DIDN:T have to compete with other countries and we were stronger for it. So now we have the prospect of trade with foreign countries that obth perpetuates THEIR slave-like lifestyles and diminishes OUR standard of living. The choice is clear.


Since then we have moved forward and those other countries like India and China are now where we were then.

AND, by lowering OUR SOL we are going where THEY were. This isn't an uphill heirarchy, dude. You do realize that this global normalization REQUIRES us to go down every bit as much as they go UP, eh? If you want to equate their cheap labor with OUR production cost of labor there is no magic that raises THEIR standards while keeping OURS better than the greatest generation.



In time they will be in the same boat as we are now. Unless they propose what you propose and no body trades with anybody which will, again, inflate the prices of goods and service over what they would be if they were allowed to compete in a global market.

such bullshit doom and gloom threats, dude. I mean, WE SURE DO SEE JAPAN about to tank even though they've been a closes system since day fucking one, eh? SURE we will trade but not to the disadvantage of our nation for the sake of your pocketbook. You forget, WE are still the greatest consumers. Not india. Not china. Let India and China sell it's goods to it's OWN people while we can do the same. Believe it or not this nation lived and thrived before capitalists were able to buy cheap plastic shit from China. For realz.


You really aren't doing American's any favors by keeping them from figuring out how to do that. By employing and isolationist tacitc you've just show them they don't have to. So what if japan can build a superior automobile, it isn't going to get sold here, so what's the incentive to improve?

HA!

talk to me more about who is doing favors for whom, dude. Indeed, we sure the fuck DO see Japan slack off on ITS market without that, uh, foreign influence, eh? WHAT is the incentive? OUR market and OUR living standards. Do cell phones now have mp3s because thats how they are made in CHINA? YOU, sir, seriously underestimate the American.



Why are 5% increases not as impressive as they once were? Be specific. Do you have any evidence to support this reduced value theory of yours? Maybe that's the case and maybe it isn't, but no job is going to hold the same value forever. As Zoomie pointed out we place value in whatever is scarce. As technology improves that is also going to change what jobs we find most valuable. What's teh better alternative for a society? Figure out how to adapt and grow or become isolationist and avoid haveing to do that at all?

seriously? You want evidence of the consumer price index?

Year Amount it took to
equal $1 in 1913
1913 $1.00
1920 2.02
1925 1.77
1930 1.69
1935 1.38
1940 1.41
1945 $1.82
1950 2.43
1955 2.71
1960 2.99
1965 3.18
1970 3.92
1975 $5.43
1980 8.32
1985 10.87
1990 13.20
1995 15.39
2000 17.39
2001 $17.89
2002 18.17
2003 18.59
2004 19.08
2005 19.73
2006 20.18
2007 20.94
2008 21.57
Consumer Price Index (CPI)

THE better alternative for our society is to stop hemorrhaging production to cheaper nations for the sake of capitalists when the flaw in your argument is that WE ARE NOT A NATION OF JAVA PROGRAMMERS.



They won't listen to your theoretical isolationist bullshit. Maybe you'll save some jobs here, meanwhile basic economics tells us the quality of the goods and service here will probably fall and the cost of goods and service will probably go up.



sorry, but your predictions are about as worthless as your free market rhetoric given the economic FACTS that we are currently wading through. No, your "BASIC" economics doesn't convey what you think they do. If so, we wouldn't be having this conversation because everyone would all of a sudden be weath ridden gazillionairs by now. But, thats just not the case, now is it? If the cost goes up at least people will be employed with viable incomes enough to support it. remember the mantra: Hungry? Eat your import.

 

[sealybobo]

Why did you start at 1913? That's when JP Morgan, Carnege & Rockafellor took over the country in a silent coup. They bribed congress to GIVE them the federal reserve. All the gold in fort knox, GONE! It was done over xmas recess. Blabla. Just thought it was interesting you started with that year.

Income tax is unconstitutional. Founding fathers were against government taxing income. No taxation without representation. No indirect taxes. Now our income tax only pays the interest on the national debt. Not even. We are slaves. No longer are we free. People own the Federal Reserve so they own America. They did this bad economy, and they bailed themselves out. Well, you did actually.

 

[Bern80]

You ASKED what i'd do and I gave you and answer. You want EVIDENCE? Japan's auto market. YOUR problem is that you don't have a single shred of anything to back up your theoretical bullshit. I, on the other hand, HAVE more than excuses for this current FAILURE of an economy. And no, it's the wal mart excuse all over again. LOW COST IS NOT BENEFICIAL IF IT PUTS AMERICANS OUT OF WORK SINCE THEY ARE THE ONES YOU THINK ARE SUPPOSED TO BE OUT BUYING SHIT. With a lowered income comes a lowered ability to purchase. YOU are actually LOWERING our American standard of living by trying to get people hooked on cheap plastic shit from China. Which, PLEASE make me drop dource after source in tis thread regarding how many AMERICANS went out of business due to being undercut by wal mart for the sake for cheap plastic shit from china. PLEASE do that.

What we are seeing now is a result of a down economy, not because we have an entirely flawed system. This colossal failure you're referring to is grossly overstated. I have never argued that the current system is without risks, it does require a modicum of effort and responsibility on the part of the individual, something you still refuse to acknowlesdge. And I guess your right, this system isn't for you if you want something where everyone is just as content as can be 100% of the time. Good like finding a system that offer that, though. If you bothered to look you would see that there are plenty of negatives when it comes isolationism, I listed some but let's give the experts a shot.

The Economic Effect of Tariffs

Bernanke warns about economic isolationism - Stocks & economy - MSNBC.com

"having some problems" sure the hell isn't a phrase that a capitalist will admit to OR consider when looking at the faults of their chosen system, eh? Under my system TOYOTAS will cost as much or more than a CHEVY which makes the DOMESTIC PRODUCT (see employees with jobs) a greater value. We DO have AMERICAN competition without having to require foreign input. Competition between GM, Ford and Chevy are STILL AMERICANS AT WORK. How many SUVS do you think Japan is importing versus OUR quickness to import Toyotas? do you think they are evenly comparable? CLEARLY, THE INCLUSION OF JAPAN DIDNT BRING ABOUT THE COMPETITIVE DRIVE THAT YOU THINK WILL MAGICALLY HAPPEN SO FAR, eh?

Unless you believe America can get everything it needs within our borders imposing tariffs are going to have consequneces in the realm of retaliatroy tariffs which we saw in the middle Bush's administration. You also eliminate choice, and in case you haven't noticed choice is something we kind of like here.

HA! yea.. looking back at an America age when a middle class thrived on production and single family incomes sure IS An unattainable pipe dream! sure, capitalist.. sure. NO, they DIDN:T have to compete with other countries and we were stronger for it. So now we have the prospect of trade with foreign countries that obth perpetuates THEIR slave-like lifestyles and diminishes OUR standard of living. The choice is clear.

In the span of sentence you said not competeing (as in not haveing to do work) makes something stronger. Guess it's worth a shot. I'm gonna sit on my ass for a year. Watch for me in the next Mr. Universe pagaent okay.

 

[Shogun]

What we are seeing now is a result of a down economy, not because we have an entirely flawed system. This colossal failure you're referring to is grossly overstated. I have never argued that the current system is without risks, it does require a modicum of effort and responsibility on the part of the individual, something you still refuse to acknowlesdge. And I guess your right, this system isn't for you if you want something where everyone is just as content as can be 100% of the time. Good like finding a system that offer that, though. If you bothered to look you would see that there are plenty of negatives when it comes isolationism, I listed some but let's give the experts a shot.

The Economic Effect of Tariffs

Bernanke warns about economic isolationism - Stocks & economy - MSNBC.com

oh hey.. make up some more excuses, dude. I bet you can even find another free market capitalist to reassert the bullshit in lieu of the DAY TO DAY EVIDENCE. GROSSLY overstate? yea.. ok dude.

what the fuck are you talking about "refusing to acknowledge"? Is preserving American production supposed to alleviate a personal choice when Im STILL TALKING ABOUT JOBS THAT AMERICANS WILL DO? For real.. your silly rhetorical talking points is a mess. Why don't you go ahead and use the examples of isolationism and point out some of those negatives instead of crying like a little girl that im about to take your teddy bear away. Japan sure the fuck DOES suffer from dominating the auto market! I'ts a goddamn economic holocaust over there!



Unless you believe America can get everything it needs within our borders imposing tariffs are going to have consequneces in the realm of retaliatroy tariffs which we saw in the middle Bush's administration. You also eliminate choice, and in case you haven't noticed choice is something we kind of like here.

don't give me this doom and gloom bullshit that nostrodaumus would get a hardon listening to, dude. show me some evidence. The FACT remains that America HAS been able to collect our resources to produce the things we need. Do you want to pretend that a fucking Ford or chevy CANT do what a toyota does? Indeed, given Japans closed system, and the lopsided trade we see anyway, we ALREADY have trade consequences. How many American fucking products do you think it takes being sold outside the US to shut down a fucking factory? And no, I don't eliminate choice.. I make your lavish fucking options pay for more than a new way to fuck the rest of America. After all, it's not as if some multi-national conglomerate is trying to pay it's labor MORE just because it gets the bennys of free trade.



In the span of sentence you said not competeing (as in not haveing to do work) makes something stronger. Guess it's worth a shot. I'm gonna sit on my ass for a year. Watch for me in the next Mr. Universe pagaent okay.



No, I said that removing a foreign competitor does not eliminate the necessity for competition when WE HAVE DOMESTIC COMPETITION. For real, dude.. I mean, I realize that your position is a goddamn joke these days but perhaps you can address what I DO say rather than what im not saying. THIS is the kind of rhetorical tap dance that illustrates the plastic nature of your fucking economic opinons. You ask for evidence and I provide. You ask for my strategy and I provide. You haven't done a damn thing besides take the free trade dick out of your mouth long enough to spit the same ole bullshit that some of us were wary of in the early 90s. Need to see that greenspan video
one more time? I mean, I guess it beats the giant hulkamania type punishment i've handing your ass in this thread, eh?

 

[Bern80]

oh hey.. make up some more excuses, dude. I bet you can even find another free market capitalist to reassert the bullshit in lieu of the DAY TO DAY EVIDENCE. GROSSLY overstate? yea.. ok dude.

Obviously you didn't actually read the links, as Bernanke's statement is given in context of the CURRENT economic cycle. These are actual economists, and they all say about the same thing. In the short your isolationist plan will save some jobs, in the long run the cost of doing so will outwiegh that, more jobs will be lost, prices will go up and quality will go down.

what the fuck are you talking about "refusing to acknowledge"? Is preserving American production supposed to alleviate a personal choice when Im STILL TALKING ABOUT JOBS THAT AMERICANS WILL DO? For real.. your silly rhetorical talking points is a mess. Why don't you go ahead and use the examples of isolationism and point out some of those negatives instead of crying like a little girl that im about to take your teddy bear away. Japan sure the fuck DOES suffer from dominating the auto market! I'ts a goddamn economic holocaust over there!

Again I ask what is the average Japanese citizen's living standard like compared to ours? And i believe the links above point out the negatives of isolationism, again I guess you didn't read them.

"don't give me this doom and gloom bullshit that nostrodaumus would get a hardon listening to, dude. show me some evidence. The FACT remains that America HAS been able to collect our resources to produce the things we need. Do you want to pretend that a fucking Ford or chevy CANT do what a toyota does? Indeed, given Japans closed system, and the lopsided trade we see anyway, we ALREADY have trade consequences. How many American fucking products do you think it takes being sold outside the US to shut down a fucking factory? And no, I don't eliminate choice.. I make your lavish fucking options pay for more than a new way to fuck the rest of America. After all, it's not as if some multi-national conglomerate is trying to pay it's labor MORE just because it gets the bennys of free trade.

As just one example where is most of our oil coming from? Oh, for actual evidence here is what actually DID happen when imposed import tariffs in the steel industry.

Bush Cancels Tariffs on Imported Steel; EU to Drop Retaliatory Duties - Construction Industry, News Articles, Business Conditions & Analysis, Markets, Finance, Costs, Legislation, Government, Management, Labor, Construction Methods, Equipment & Mater

"I said that removing a foreign competitor does not eliminate the necessity for competition when WE HAVE DOMESTIC COMPETITION. For real, dude.. I mean, I realize that your position is a goddamn joke these days but perhaps you can address what I DO say rather than what im not saying. THIS is the kind of rhetorical tap dance that illustrates the plastic nature of your fucking economic opinons. You ask for evidence and I provide. You ask for my strategy and I provide. You haven't done a damn thing besides take the free trade dick out of your mouth long enough to spit the same ole bullshit that some of us were wary of in the early 90s. Need to see that greenspan video
one more time? I mean, I guess it beats the giant hulkamania type punishment i've handing your ass in this thread, eh?

And you are blind to the pitfalls of your strategy. If you think, Mr. non-economist, that you have the be all end all economic solution, then I have some ocean front property in Arizona for you.

 

[Shogun]

Obviously you didn't actually read the links, as Bernanke's statement is given in context of the CURRENT economic cycle. These are actual economists, and they all say about the same thing. In the short your isolationist plan will save some jobs, in the long run the cost of doing so will outwiegh that, more jobs will be lost, prices will go up and quality will go down.

Like I said.. You'll have to forgive me for disregarding your bullshit predictions as your run so far has been a bit lackluster. In the long run YOU, nor they, can predict the future any better than your current clusterfuck proves. It's time we try something other than bullshit rhetoric from snake oil salesmen who pretend to be the only ones capable of comprehending economic matters.



Again I ask what is the average Japanese citizen's living standard like compared to ours? And i believe the links above point out the negatives of isolationism, again I guess you didn't read them.


Im just not impressed with your predictions, dude. OR those of people who think like you when it comes to threatening hellfire and damnation from your free market soap box. Maybe you thought I'd fall to my knees in preayer to bernakke and ask for forgiveness. Sorry to disappoint.

In the postwar decades, Japanese consumers have benefited from the nation's economic growth, while in turn they have stimulated the economy through demand for sophisticated products, loyalty to domestically produced goods, and saving and pooling investment funds. But personal disposable income has not risen as fast as the economy as a whole in many years—at 1 percentage point less than average GNP growth in the late 1980s. Despite the hard work and sacrifice that have made Japan one of the wealthiest nations in the world, this generation felt they are "a rich nation, but a poor people". Such a negative view of the economy is prompted by the fact that the average consumer had to pay for goods and services that are much cheaper than elsewhere.

Japanese income distribution in the 1980s, both before and after taxes, was among the most equitable in the world. An important factor in income distribution is that the lower income group is better off than in most industrialized countries. The economic crisis of the 1990s diluted this picture somewhat, increasing the unemployment rate (to 4.0% in 2006).
Standard of living in Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The U.S. and Japanese economies are in some respects very similar. They are
large industrialized economies that have provided their residents with a high standard of living

U.S.-Japanese bilateral trade in goods and services has grown over time,
although recently the level of bilateral trade turnover has plateaued. As Table 2
shows, U.S.-Japan total trade in goods attained a record level in 2000. U.S. exports
to Japan dropped about 21% from $64.9 billion in 2000 to $51.4 billion in 2002, but
have been increasing since then. U.S. imports have increased recently from $118.0
billion in 2003 to $148.2 billion in 2005.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL32649.pdf







As just one example where is most of our oil coming from? Oh, for actual evidence here is what actually DID happen when imposed import tariffs in the steel industry.



You fucking ACT like WE CANT MAKE STEEL. what the fuck is wrong with you?

As threatened sanctions from overseas loomed, President Bush has ended a 21-month-old set of tariffs on steel imports, a move that cheered companies that use steel, but disappointed domestic steelmakers and the steelworkers' union. Bush's action, which came in a proclamation he signed on Dec. 4, quickly was hailed by the European Union, which said it would ...

From your own goddamn link. It's EXACTLY This kind of shit that i'm talking about. Do you really think that all those DOMESTIC WORKERS give a fuck about how much MORE money you get to save in order to undermine their labor with cheap shit from some other country?

Do you think we live in a fucking Vacuum? Can you NOT compete with EU by finding an AMERICAN ALTERNATIVE to whatever the fuck EU tried to strike back on? Can't find an alternate to fucking Champaign? Enjoy your fucking italian shoes just a little too much? give me a fucking break. MEANWHILE, your bullshit opinion just put some STEEL WORKERS out of work.. BRAVO. fucking BRAVO.







And you are blind to the pitfalls of your strategy. If you think, Mr. non-economist, that you have the be all end all economic solution, then I have some ocean front property in Arizona for you.



Ahh.. so it takes a fucking nutritionist to see that people are starving now, eh? Trust me, your fucking kind is taking the path of the dinosaurs, dude. Your laughable expertise, despite REALITY, is the hubris that your kind wont survive from. Welcome to the machine you phrenologist motherfucker. Go ahead and save your ocean front property to sell during the next impending economic collapse. Feel free to wrap those up in confederate dollars when the masses vote your kind out of office and we see one more in a long line of bitchslappings to some capitalist pigs who think that everyone else exists in order to sustain a 2% lifestyle. again, child labor.. monopolies.. next is the "free market myth". Enjoy the ride, motherfucker.

 

[Bern80]

Obviously you didn't actually read the links, as Bernanke's statement is given in context of the CURRENT economic cycle. These are actual economists, and they all say about the same thing. In the short your isolationist plan will save some jobs, in the long run the cost of doing so will outwiegh that, more jobs will be lost, prices will go up and quality will go down.

Like I said.. You'll have to forgive me for disregarding your bullshit predictions as your run so far has been a bit lackluster. In the long run YOU, nor they, can predict the future any better than your current clusterfuck proves. It's time we try something other than bullshit rhetoric from snake oil salesmen who pretend to be the only ones capable of comprehending economic matters.



Again I ask what is the average Japanese citizen's living standard like compared to ours? And i believe the links above point out the negatives of isolationism, again I guess you didn't read them.


Im just not impressed with your predictions, dude. OR those of people who think like you when it comes to threatening hellfire and damnation from your free market soap box. Maybe you thought I'd fall to my knees in preayer to bernakke and ask for forgiveness. Sorry to disappoint.

In the postwar decades, Japanese consumers have benefited from the nation's economic growth, while in turn they have stimulated the economy through demand for sophisticated products, loyalty to domestically produced goods, and saving and pooling investment funds. But personal disposable income has not risen as fast as the economy as a whole in many years—at 1 percentage point less than average GNP growth in the late 1980s. Despite the hard work and sacrifice that have made Japan one of the wealthiest nations in the world, this generation felt they are "a rich nation, but a poor people". Such a negative view of the economy is prompted by the fact that the average consumer had to pay for goods and services that are much cheaper than elsewhere.

Japanese income distribution in the 1980s, both before and after taxes, was among the most equitable in the world. An important factor in income distribution is that the lower income group is better off than in most industrialized countries. The economic crisis of the 1990s diluted this picture somewhat, increasing the unemployment rate (to 4.0% in 2006).
Standard of living in Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The U.S. and Japanese economies are in some respects very similar. They are
large industrialized economies that have provided their residents with a high standard of living

U.S.-Japanese bilateral trade in goods and services has grown over time,
although recently the level of bilateral trade turnover has plateaued. As Table 2
shows, U.S.-Japan total trade in goods attained a record level in 2000. U.S. exports
to Japan dropped about 21% from $64.9 billion in 2000 to $51.4 billion in 2002, but
have been increasing since then. U.S. imports have increased recently from $118.0
billion in 2003 to $148.2 billion in 2005.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL32649.pdf







As just one example where is most of our oil coming from? Oh, for actual evidence here is what actually DID happen when imposed import tariffs in the steel industry.



You fucking ACT like WE CANT MAKE STEEL. what the fuck is wrong with you?

As threatened sanctions from overseas loomed, President Bush has ended a 21-month-old set of tariffs on steel imports, a move that cheered companies that use steel, but disappointed domestic steelmakers and the steelworkers' union. Bush's action, which came in a proclamation he signed on Dec. 4, quickly was hailed by the European Union, which said it would ...

From your own goddamn link. It's EXACTLY This kind of shit that i'm talking about. Do you really think that all those DOMESTIC WORKERS give a fuck about how much MORE money you get to save in order to undermine their labor with cheap shit from some other country?

Do you think we live in a fucking Vacuum? Can you NOT compete with EU by finding an AMERICAN ALTERNATIVE to whatever the fuck EU tried to strike back on? Can't find an alternate to fucking Champaign? Enjoy your fucking italian shoes just a little too much? give me a fucking break. MEANWHILE, your bullshit opinion just put some STEEL WORKERS out of work.. BRAVO. fucking BRAVO.







And you are blind to the pitfalls of your strategy. If you think, Mr. non-economist, that you have the be all end all economic solution, then I have some ocean front property in Arizona for you.



Ahh.. so it takes a fucking nutritionist to see that people are starving now, eh? Trust me, your fucking kind is taking the path of the dinosaurs, dude. Your laughable expertise, despite REALITY, is the hubris that your kind wont survive from. Welcome to the machine you phrenologist motherfucker. Go ahead and save your ocean front property to sell during the next impending economic collapse. Feel free to wrap those up in confederate dollars when the masses vote your kind out of office and we see one more in a long line of bitchslappings to some capitalist pigs who think that everyone else exists in order to sustain a 2% lifestyle. again, child labor.. monopolies.. next is the "free market myth". Enjoy the ride, motherfucker.

well it sure didn't take you long to stop making sense again. For someone that complains abput rheoric you use more than most on this board. The future can be predicted with your method because it has been tried before and has failed and to top it all off your plan totally disregards American culture and its behaviors. Like it or not we are not loyal, right now the only thing people can afford to be loyal to is what is easiest on their wallets. Your plan undermines that. You are truly deluded if you think your plan is a cure all.

What is amazing is all this evidence you claim you have provided. Most of it was never in question in the first place. We are all well aware that jobs are leaving the U.S.

What you HAVEN"T proven is your argument: That the current economic down turn is a result of free market capitalism. That has been the crux of your argument this whole time. Disregarding whatever evidence you think you have for that the assertion alone is completely full of holes. We don't operate in free market capitalism in the first place, for starters. We already enact tariffs and we already regualate private industry quite extensively. You clearly haven't considered the many variables invlolved in our economy either. Including the big one that no one on the left seems to want to admit and that is that this just might have teensy weensy bit to do with human behavior. It is amazing that you can't even consider an alternative possibly, what with your vast credentials and all (what were they again?). Meanwhile some of the smartest economists of the past centrey who I've cited disagree with you, including the like of Milton Friedman. That isn't hero worship or ass kissing. Ask economist worth their salt and they would probably say the same.

The biggest impedement in getting anywhere with you is that you refuse to acknowledge reality. If you can't answer the following question I am content to simply see how it plays out. Don't worry, you will have your nation of mediocrity in a few generations as the values of the greatest generation that you espous so greatly finely become extinct. The question: Could you be convinced by evidence that doesn't match what you currently believe? Are you even capable of changeing your mind? I doubt it.

 

[I Missthe North]

When the rich are treated equally to the poor, the system you speak of may work. People with money are quite obviously treated as superior to those with who have none in all aspects of American society (law, finance, employment, education, etc.). The least they can do is pay for those privileges through taxes

 

[dilloduck]

When the rich are treated equally to the poor, the system you speak of may work. People with money are quite obviously treated as superior to those with who have none in all aspects of American society (law, finance, employment, education, etc.). The least they can do is pay for those privileges through taxes

How did they all get that money in the first place ?

 

[Bern80]

When the rich are treated equally to the poor, the system you speak of may work. People with money are quite obviously treated as superior to those with who have none in all aspects of American society (law, finance, employment, education, etc.). The least they can do is pay for those privileges through taxes

What exactley does equal treatment between rich and poor look like? Treated equally by who?

 

[sealybobo]

1. Republicans always scare us that costs will go up if we manufacture here. Not anymore. Consider the cost to ship from china to here with the price of gas. and what about the value of the dollar. its not worth what it used to be worth, so we aren't even getting the same bang for our buck before the gop from 2000 to 2006 bankrupted the country.

 

[sealybobo]

How did they all get that money in the first place ?

I assure you it was not in an economy like we're in now.

Unless they are already rich. You know, born rich. Then you can benefit from this economy.

But even rich people are getting screwed in this economy. Sure chaney and company are getting rich, and ceo's are getting richer, but everyone is getting hit somewhere, if not at the pumps then 401K or home value. and ppl making $250K a yr are even losing their jobs.

to hear republicans downplay it or try to blame the democrats is laughable.

 

[Skull Pilot]

When the rich are treated equally to the poor, the system you speak of may work. People with money are quite obviously treated as superior to those with who have none in all aspects of American society (law, finance, employment, education, etc.). The least they can do is pay for those privileges through taxes

people who can afford better services already pay for them by hiring better lawyers, better financial advisers etc because they get those services through the private sector and not the government.

so is your assertion that there be no private avenue to get better legal, educational and financial services? do we ban all those private enterprises and make them all government services that we all have to pay for through taxes?

 

[Skull Pilot]

I assure you it was not in an economy like we're in now.

Unless they are already rich. You know, born rich. Then you can benefit from this economy.

But even rich people are getting screwed in this economy. Sure chaney and company are getting rich, and ceo's are getting richer, but everyone is getting hit somewhere, if not at the pumps then 401K or home value. and ppl making $250K a yr are even losing their jobs.

to hear republicans downplay it or try to blame the democrats is laughable.

do you realize that even in this economy there are new first time, not born to it, millionaires being made every year?

your problem is that you, like so many other Americans , have had an employee mindset drilled into you. you fell for the old "get a good job and work hard line". Almost all new millionaires have been successful because they worked foir themselves.

Record number of US millionaires

The number of millionaire households in the United States grew in 2004 to a record 7.5 million, up 21 percent in one year, according to surveys cited in the May 25 Wall Street Journal. This very wealthy segment of the population now controls an astounding $11 trillion in assets

that was just 2004.

this economy is still ripe with opportunity if only you would stop whining about what the government is not doing for you and start doing something for yourself you might just see that.

 

[sealybobo]

do you realize that even in this economy there are new first time, not born to it, millionaires being made every year?

your problem is that you, like so many other Americans , have had an employee mindset drilled into you. you fell for the old "get a good job and work hard line". Almost all new millionaires have been successful because they worked foir themselves.

Record number of US millionaires

The number of millionaire households in the United States grew in 2004 to a record 7.5 million, up 21 percent in one year, according to surveys cited in the May 25 Wall Street Journal. This very wealthy segment of the population now controls an astounding $11 trillion in assets

that was just 2004.

this economy is still ripe with opportunity if only you would stop whining about what the government is not doing for you and start doing something for yourself you might just see that.

Yes, if you had $800K, now you are a millionaire. I get that. But the dollar is only worth 70 cents now, dumb shit.

 

[Bern80]

Yes, if you had $800K, now you are a millionaire. I get that. But the dollar is only worth 70 cents now, dumb shit.

You don't 'get' anything apparently, seeing as how you compeltely missed the point or are just refusing to acklowledge it. There is plenty of opportunity out there to make money right now as evidenced by the fact that plenty of people are doing just that.

The point still remains. You guys can piss and moan about the free market or blame Republicans or do whatever. In the end you can sit on your thumbs a whine about who should do what for you or you can use that thing between your ears and make an effort to help yourself.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Yes, if you had $800K, now you are a millionaire. I get that. But the dollar is only worth 70 cents now, dumb shit.

moron

keep whining how you want people with more money than you to take care of you.

And that the dollar is only worth 70cents (so you say) is a good thing because the stocks I buy today will appreciate that much faster when the market picks up steam again. And it will.

So go hide your head chicken little while the men go to work to make something happen