Everyone should be in favor of reducing taxes on the "rich"

[editec]

Quote:

Originally Posted by editec
and, given the EVIDENCE i've posted, I am of the majority who is taking this nation off of your toilet paper rack. boo hoo for you. Indeed, utter one more "let them eat cake" piece of rhetorical bullshit while trying to find a rich dick to suck in this stagnant economic environment and you may just learn the same lesson French silver spooners did in 1789

did I write that?

Doesn't much sound like me.

It has it's moments though.

I particularly like

Indeed, utter one more "let them eat cake" piece of rhetorical bullshit

That does sound like me.

but this?

while trying to find a rich dick to suck in this stagnant economic environment and you may just learn the same lesson French silver spooners did in 1789

Hmmm...I wrote that?

Not one of my finer efforts. Must have been having a hard day.

Would you kind enough to link to that post so I can see what I was responding to at the time?

Thanks.

 

[Bern80]

Quote:


did I write that?

Doesn't much sound like me.

It has it's moments though.

I particularly like



That does sound like me.

but this?



Hmmm...I wrote that?

Not one of my finer efforts. Must have been having a hard day.

Would you kind enough to link to that post so I can see what I was responding to at the time?

Thanks.

No that was one if his carefully thought out, well reasoned responses to me.

 

[Zoomie1980]

HAS EACH ARTICLE IVE POSTED BEEN AN OP ED? And, dude.. before you try to call me out on anything you might want to provide more than some hero worship of some book your've read. For real. I mean, it's great that you have your mouth full gobbling up your economic hero's sausage but your opinion isn't universal. Your dazzled starry eyes are not the standard. And, since you seem incapable of offering anything OTHER than some name dropping you continue to fail.

So, in recap: No, you didn't provide shit by name dropping some book. If you think THIS is what evidence is it's really no shocker that you are so fucked up about the reality of the economy. I've provided LINK to evidence after evidce that you are full of shit. And you name drop a BOOK? a single fucking source anyway?





no wonder your scope of economic resembles a horse blinder.

I'm a senior manager at a fortune 500 company. I live in the world these business writers theorize about. If i could hire solely American IT and Engineers to our work, I could. It's costs me about the same, in terms of total cost of ownership to get applications developed with Inidan labor as it does American. The savings are not particularly big, it's simply the volume of work that has to be done.

So I'll say it again, my going rate for Enterprise Java developers with at least three years experience is $35/hr to $50+ for highly experienced architectural types. I pay $25/hr for new college graduates (that's 50k right out of a four year degree program). So you taking or are you one of those dolts running around with a history degree wondering why they can't make a living? The employment rate for American college graduates with technical degrees is 100%. Every last one of them has a job and they ALL pay over $40,000/yr. Every last one of them, and most of them more.

I have never lost a job to an outsource and know no one who has, and I've been doing this for over 30 years. I'm IN the business, not writing about it.

 

[Paulie]

I'm a senior manager at a fortune 500 company. I live in the world these business writers theorize about. If i could hire solely American IT and Engineers to our work, I could. It's costs me about the same, in terms of total cost of ownership to get applications developed with Inidan labor as it does American. The savings are not particularly big, it's simply the volume of work that has to be done.

So I'll say it again, my going rate for Enterprise Java developers with at least three years experience is $35/hr to $50+ for highly experienced architectural types. I pay $25/hr for new college graduates (that's 50k right out of a four year degree program). So you taking or are you one of those dolts running around with a history degree wondering why they can't make a living? The employment rate for American college graduates with technical degrees is 100%. Every last one of them has a job and they ALL pay over $40,000/yr. Every last one of them, and most of them more.

I have never lost a job to an outsource and know no one who has, and I've been doing this for over 30 years. I'm IN the business, not writing about it.

The medical field isn't bad either.

My girlfriend will graduate the LPN nursing program in June, and be making $42,000/yr to start. And that's for one measly year of school, and a few pre-req's she attained while getting her associate previously. She'll move right into the RN program, be PAID by her company her LPN rate while she's doing so with the only requirement being that she guarantee them 2 years of employment with them, and afterwards will be making over $40/hr, or around the high 70k's/yr.

It's a recession-proof job, and she loves that line of work to boot.

 

[Bern80]

No, NOOOOO, none of you are.....real. You're fig newtons of the imagination. YOU DON'T EXIST. Go away, GO AWAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY.

 

[Zoomie1980]

The medical field isn't bad either.

My girlfriend will graduate the LPN nursing program in June, and be making $42,000/yr to start. And that's for one measly year of school, and a few pre-req's she attained while getting her associate previously. She'll move right into the RN program, be PAID by her company her LPN rate while she's doing so with the only requirement being that she guarantee them 2 years of employment with them, and afterwards will be making over $40/hr, or around the high 70k's/yr.

It's a recession-proof job, and she loves that line of work to boot.

Outsourcing is a cost cutting measure in some terms. If we didn't do the application development to more automate the business and provide more accurate information to managers to make decisions with, we would continue with the high cost modes of doing business the old fashion way and lose massive productivity dollars. So yes, outsourcing is a cost cutting move in a way. But anyone who has outsourced for any length of time knows very well the money saved is raw labor costs is mostly ALL consumed in much lower productivity and quality as well as an entire new layer of management that has to be employed to handle the complexities of the foreign contracts.

Like I said, there is NO unemployment among those with sought after skills and they command very handsome salaries right out of school. Those 600,000 lost jobs are NOT those kinds of jobs. These are almost ALL low skill, menial labor type things that expand and contract with the economy all the time.

The lesson is that if you do not possess a marketable skill, you will ALWAYS be living life on the fringe. The world will NEVER be short of fruit pickers, garbage collectors, maids, waitresses, janitors, etc....because those jobs don't require skills and it's EASY to qualify for them so millions and billions can qualify. Possess a significant skill and you are recession proof because companies simply do not cut those people to lower payroll; they are too hard to find.

And in the US, there is NO EXCUSE for not acquiring a marketable skill if you are of sound mind and sound body.

 

[jschuck12001]

I'm a senior manager at a fortune 500 company. I live in the world these business writers theorize about. If i could hire solely American IT and Engineers to our work, I could. It's costs me about the same, in terms of total cost of ownership to get applications developed with Inidan labor as it does American. The savings are not particularly big, it's simply the volume of work that has to be done.

So I'll say it again, my going rate for Enterprise Java developers with at least three years experience is $35/hr to $50+ for highly experienced architectural types. I pay $25/hr for new college graduates (that's 50k right out of a four year degree program). So you taking or are you one of those dolts running around with a history degree wondering why they can't make a living? The employment rate for American college graduates with technical degrees is 100%. Every last one of them has a job and they ALL pay over $40,000/yr. Every last one of them, and most of them more.

I have never lost a job to an outsource and know no one who has, and I've been doing this for over 30 years. I'm IN the business, not writing about it.

Question,

How does your company feel about hiring a career professional with over 12 years sales experience, has their certs but no degree, I'm just curious.

 

[editec]

Great we can all be nurses and computer programers.

That'll be a great society.

 

[sealybobo]

Great we can all be nurses and computer programers.

That'll be a great society.

Give the rich even more tax breaks? Give me a break!

Morgan Stanley, Lehman Brothers. and other Wall Street giants helped foreign investors dodge billions of dollars in U.S. taxes on stock dividends while the IRS looked the other way, a Senate investigation found.

The firms worked with shell hedge funds that had little more than offshore mailing addresses in the Cayman Islands and elsewhere. The funds arranged complex equity swaps and stock loans aimed at circumventing U.S. tax laws, a staff report by the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations said.

For 10 years, the IRS has neither enforced existing rules prohibiting the transactions nor tried to draft new standards, the 77-page report said.

“These are gimmicks peddled by American financial institutions to deny Uncle Sam taxes owed under our law,” Senator Carl Levin, who heads the panel, told reporters. “The IRS has pussyfooted on this.”

Morgan Stanley enabled foreign clients to avoid payment of more than $300 million in U.S. dividend taxes from 2000 to 2007, the report said. Lehman estimated its customers eluded payment of as much $115 million in 2004. UBS helped clients escape payment of $62 million from 2004 to 2007.


http://www.financialweek.com/apps/pb...809119995/1036

 

[Shogun]

I'm a senior manager at a fortune 500 company. I live in the world these business writers theorize about. If i could hire solely American IT and Engineers to our work, I could. It's costs me about the same, in terms of total cost of ownership to get applications developed with Inidan labor as it does American. The savings are not particularly big, it's simply the volume of work that has to be done.

So I'll say it again, my going rate for Enterprise Java developers with at least three years experience is $35/hr to $50+ for highly experienced architectural types. I pay $25/hr for new college graduates (that's 50k right out of a four year degree program). So you taking or are you one of those dolts running around with a history degree wondering why they can't make a living? The employment rate for American college graduates with technical degrees is 100%. Every last one of them has a job and they ALL pay over $40,000/yr. Every last one of them, and most of them more.

I have never lost a job to an outsource and know no one who has, and I've been doing this for over 30 years. I'm IN the business, not writing about it.

I've posted my sources, dude. I'd LOVE to take your word for it but, unfortunately, non sequiters only impress people at GOP fundraising galas.

 

[Paulie]

The lesson is that if you do not possess a marketable skill, you will ALWAYS be living life on the fringe. The world will NEVER be short of fruit pickers, garbage collectors, maids, waitresses, janitors, etc....because those jobs don't require skills and it's EASY to qualify for them so millions and billions can qualify. Possess a significant skill and you are recession proof because companies simply do not cut those people to lower payroll; they are too hard to find.

And in the US, there is NO EXCUSE for not acquiring a marketable skill if you are of sound mind and sound body.

I agree completely.

Like I said, there is NO unemployment among those with sought after skills and they command very handsome salaries right out of school. Those 600,000 lost jobs are NOT those kinds of jobs. These are almost ALL low skill, menial labor type things that expand and contract with the economy all the time.

The problem though, is that some people are built for that kind of work, and many actually happen to enjoy it. Some may see that as underachieving, or whatever, but one shouldn't be kicked to the curb because they don't have a marketable skill beyond menial labor. Those people are just as important to the economy and the country.

I paint houses. I worked for someone for a long time, made good money as far as I was concerned, and am now working for myself. I can do really well in a good economy, but this housing market slump is hurting many labor tradesmen. Those hurting shouldn't be tossed aside because they didn't go to college. College is not for everyone.

It shouldn't be the fault of the laborer that they are out of work, because they didn't go to college to learn IT instead. The economy could be doing much better right now, had the government not been so fucking incompetent.

 

[Bern80]

I paint houses. I worked for someone for a long time, made good money as far as I was concerned, and am now working for myself. I can do really well in a good economy, but this housing market slump is hurting many labor tradesmen. Those hurting shouldn't be tossed aside because they didn't go to college. College is not for everyone.

It shouldn't be the fault of the laborer that they are out of work, because they didn't go to college to learn IT instead. The economy could be doing much better right now, had the government not been so fucking incompetent.

I don't really know what you mean "College is not for everyone". Usually it is phrase used to describe people that for one reason or another didn't like college life, didn't like the work involved. Rarely have I heard it used in the context of people that literally CAN'T go to college. If the later is what you're saying that's one thing. If it's the former that doesn't really work as a valid excuse.

The person who needs to be most responsible for taking care of you (assuming you are capable of doing so) is you. When you make a choice or choose a behavior you choose the consequences of that behavior. I have a hard time seeing who else could be considered responsible for a person being in the position you describe. Who IS responsible for that in your mind? Someone else didn't choose his career and force him to participate in it. I don't see it as somone else's responsible to do research and make sure the career path you've chosen is a secure one, either.

 

[Shogun]

This is one major flaw in your logic. College is not an option for everyone be it for financial or intellectual reasons. It's why the "no child left behind" crap fails. There is a spectrum of ability in the citizens of ANY nation. Pretending that eveyone can go learn to program java is not only ridiculous but it's not an excuse to marginalize those who can't for the sake of cheaper foreign labor. WE won't ALL SCORE 30s on the fucking ACT. Pretending that the only viable or worthwhile AMERICANS are those who can compete with Indians is exactly why your failed economic strategy doesn't gel with the reality of our economy.

 

[Bern80]

This is one major flaw in your logic. College is not an option for everyone be it for financial or intellectual reasons. It's why the "no child left behind" crap fails. There is a spectrum of ability in the citizens of ANY nation. Pretending that eveyone can go learn to program java is not only ridiculous but it's not an excuse to marginalize those who can't for the sake of cheaper foreign labor. WE won't ALL SCORE 30s on the fucking ACT.

I would agree with that, which is why I made that distinction and asked for the clarification. I started out as Pre-med major in college. That lasted about a semester. My brain just doesn't work that way. I know it's the same way for a lot of people in a lot of different subjects.

Pretending that the only viable or worthwhile AMERICANS are those who can compete with Indians is exactly why your failed economic strategy doesn't gel with the reality of our economy.

Just for kicks what is YOUR economic strategy?

 

[Shogun]

I would agree with that, which is why I made that distinction and asked for the clarification. I started out as Pre-med major in college. That lasted about a semester. My brain just doesn't work that way. I know it's the same way for a lot of people in a lot of different subjects.

I was pre med too. Turns out, physical anatomy weeded me out.


Just for kicks what is YOUR economic strategy?


The very first thing to do is to reduce taxes ONLY for businesses whose payroll was located in the US for starters. I'd tariff the hell out of imports in order to normalize the price of cheap plastic shit from china so that American's would have a competitive advantage in production. If a domestic company, whose ownership stays in the US, manages 90% of their labor in the US then I'd have no problem reducing their taxes down to 10% of the going rate. We recreate the national incentive to Buy American and stop pretending that capitalism with foreign bandaids will close our economic wounds.

thats just a start. Im sure that chaffes your mantra so have at it.

 

[Bern80]

The very first thing to do is to reduce taxes ONLY for businesses whose payroll was located in the US for starters. I'd tariff the hell out of imports in order to normalize the price of cheap plastic shit from china so that American's would have a competitive advantage in production. If a domestic company, whose ownership stays in the US, manages 90% of their labor in the US then I'd have no problem reducing their taxes down to 10% of the going rate. We recreate the national incentive to Buy American and stop pretending that capitalism with foreign bandaids will close our economic wounds.

thats just a start. Im sure that chaffes your mantra so have at it.

Okay FINALLY we're getting somewhere. I see a few issues ones.

First as you pointed yurself pointed out the main reason jobs are leaving the U.S. is because of cheap labor. How do tariffs help that?

Secondly, what are we outsourcing? Primarily cheap labor and some manufacturing. Is it your hope we become a nation of plastic molders? Sounds lucrative.

The problem with an isolationist economy is that it will inflate the prices of goods. Your proposal also is a bit of overkill to cure 1-2% real unemployment (statistically it's impossible to get much below 4%).

Finally let's assume we do everything you say. How exactley does that get rid of capitalism. We would still have comepetition it just be within our borders.

 

[Zoomie1980]

I agree completely.



The problem though, is that some people are built for that kind of work, and many actually happen to enjoy it. Some may see that as underachieving, or whatever, but one shouldn't be kicked to the curb because they don't have a marketable skill beyond menial labor. Those people are just as important to the economy and the country.

I paint houses. I worked for someone for a long time, made good money as far as I was concerned, and am now working for myself. I can do really well in a good economy, but this housing market slump is hurting many labor tradesmen. Those hurting shouldn't be tossed aside because they didn't go to college. College is not for everyone.

It shouldn't be the fault of the laborer that they are out of work, because they didn't go to college to learn IT instead. The economy could be doing much better right now, had the government not been so fucking incompetent.

I equate the trades with a college education. Master plumbers, electricians, welders, carpenters, tilers, etc.... The are all SKILLED positions that require training and experience and it;s just as challenging to become a master carpenter as it is a master programmer. These things, though are more sensitive to economic factors than purely technical areas like programming, and engineering.

 

[Zoomie1980]

This is one major flaw in your logic. College is not an option for everyone be it for financial or intellectual reasons. It's why the "no child left behind" crap fails. There is a spectrum of ability in the citizens of ANY nation. Pretending that eveyone can go learn to program java is not only ridiculous but it's not an excuse to marginalize those who can't for the sake of cheaper foreign labor. WE won't ALL SCORE 30s on the fucking ACT. Pretending that the only viable or worthwhile AMERICANS are those who can compete with Indians is exactly why your failed economic strategy doesn't gel with the reality of our economy.

Wow, so you finally hit on a fundamental axiom of the human condition. We are NOT created equal. Alex Rodriguez get's paid $25,000,000/yr because there is only one human being on the planet that can do what he does....him. A kid flipping burgers at Burger King gets $7.25/hr because about 6 BILLION people can do that.

Capitalism works because it is in harmony with human nature. We value what is rare. That means the fewer that can do a certain task that we need done, the more we value it and the more we will pay for it. That is a fundamental part of the core of our nature. Any economic system that denies our fundamental nature as human beings is doomed to eventual failure.

 

[editec]

Okay FINALLY we're getting somewhere. I see a few issues ones.

First as you pointed yurself pointed out the main reason jobs are leaving the U.S. is because of cheap labor. How do tariffs help that?

Secondly, what are we outsourcing? Primarily cheap labor and some manufacturing. Is it your hope we become a nation of plastic molders? Sounds lucrative.

The problem with an isolationist economy is that it will inflate the prices of goods. Your proposal also is a bit of overkill to cure 1-2% real unemployment (statistically it's impossible to get much below 4%).

Finally let's assume we do everything you say. How exactley does that get rid of capitalism. We would still have comepetition it just be within our borders.

I see the class war myth that only nonskilled jobs are leaving our nation continues to have traction with those who feel secure in the jobs.

This for you consideration, folks:

FRONTLINE WORLD reported last year that over half of Fortune 500 companies have moved jobs offshore, including famous names from many fields: Oracle, Dell, HSBC, Delta Air Lines, Novartis, J.P. Morgan Chase, Hewlett-Packard, American Express, British Airways. More are expected to follow. According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, job separations due to overseas relocation are at their highest level since 1995.*

Projected Number of U.S. Jobs to Move Overseas

Management: Number of jobs moving overseas by 2015:

288,281

Business: Number of jobs moving overseas by 2015:

348,028

Computer: Number of jobs moving overseas by 2015:

472,632

Architecture: Number of jobs moving overseas by 2015:

184,347

Life sciences: Number of jobs moving overseas by 2015:

36,770

Legal: Number of jobs moving overseas by 2015:

76,642

Art, design: Number of jobs moving overseas by 2015:

29,564

Sales: Number of jobs moving overseas by 2015:

226,564

Office: Number of jobs moving overseas by 2015:

1,659,310

Source: Forrester Research, Inc. November, 2002

source

Read that list again...do those sound like plastic molding factory jobs?

THOSE jobs left years ago, folks. Those jobs started leaving our shores in the late `1960s.

What we're outsourcing now are highly skilled and college educated jobs, boys and girls.

And this process of disemploying Americans is basically accelerating, too.

And why are we doing that?

Well look at the salary comparisons

U.S. workers are used to seeing manufacturing jobs lost to much lower wages, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the International Labour Organization, U.S. manufacturing average hourly compensation is $21.33, in Mexico: $2.38 and in China less than one dollar an hour.

It should be noted that while salaries are much lower in India and other BPO hot spots, that does not mean that the companies are providing inadequate compensation — the cost of living is significantly lower in India. However, as both THE TIMES OF INDIA and THE ECONOMIST have recently noted, some jobs are in turn leaving India for even cheaper locales. And where are those jobs going? Some are heading to China, Russia, Vietnam, the Philippines, Malaysia, and the Czech Republic. In short, they are moving toward cheaper labor costs than those in India.

Salary Comparisons

Software Programmer, United States:

$66,100

Software Programmer, India:

$10,000

Mechanical Engineer, United States:

$55,600

Mechanical Engineer, India:

$5,900

IT Manager, United States:

$55,000

IT Manager, India:

$8,500

Accountant, United States:

$41,000

Accountant, India:

$5,000

Financial Operations, United States:

$37,625

Financial Operations, India:

$5,500

Source: Paàras Group, 2002; International Labour Organization

 

[Bern80]

I see the class war myth that only nonskilled jobs are leaving our nation continues to have traction with those who feel secure in the jobs.

I didn't say that or anything close to it. If you were looking for a witty segue into your links you might want to try quoteing someone else.

Your first link I'd have to know a little more about. How exactley is someone in India going to manage people in America for example?