Excellent Argument Against Gun Control

[TemplarKormac]

Here, let me paint the picture for you.

A Loaded Question: Gun Ownership vs. Gun Deaths Worldwide - Businessweek

Don't need you to paint a picture for me. I can see the daily barrage of people being shot in this nation. Another shooting at a school, yesterday. Over 32,000 Americans killed by the gun in 2011, probably be more for 2012 when the numbers are tallied completely. By 2015, it looks like the gun deaths in the US will be greater than the deaths from auto accident.

Can't face the facts, can you?

 

[Saigon]

Click the order tab. Where is America? Even with it's 3.2 firearm homicide rating? Not at the top.

Jesus wept....for the 500th time - yes, the US has a lower murder rate than Zimbabwe or Somalia.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, the US has a higher murder rate than any other developed nation, bar none.

We all exist on the same planet you know. Dumbass.

It makes sense to compare the US with similar countries - such as Germany, Canada, the UK or France. It does not make sense to compare the US with totally dissimilar countries - such as Uganda, Cuba, Fiji or Estonia.

Are you honestly telling me that you would compare the US levels of education, or banking services, or tax or interest rates with Somalia as a basis for comparison?!

 

[Old Rocks]

Dose of reality, indeed!

With the US at 10.2, we are better than;

Brazil 19.02

Colombia 11.1

El Salvador 41.11

Guatemala 38.52

Honduras 46.7

Jamaica 47.44

Mexico 11.07

Panama 10.92

South Africa 18.5

Swaziland 37.16

Now that is a peer group to be proud of, correct? Here is the other side of the coin;

Australia 1.5

Canada 2.3

Germany 1.1

United Kingdom 0.25

Sweden 1.47

Japan 0.07

Ireland 1.03

But you would rather we be like the first group. Nice to see where you think our nation should be going.

 

[TemplarKormac]

You need not go on. You're only telling half the truth. Which is in my book worse than telling an outright lie.

No, everything I have said here is completely true, and I am more than happy to back up any of the claims.

I have no idea what your ranting about Facebook was about, nor am I terribly interested.

And as if I didn't need any more proof

From the Politifact article you declined to read:

Annual homicides from firearms

According to the U.N. figures, the U.S. had 9,146 homicides by firearm in 2009. That year, Colombia and Venezuela both exceeded the U.S. total, with 12,808 and 11,115 firearm deaths, respectively. Three other nations topped the U.S. amount in the most recent year for which data is available: Brazil (34,678 in 2008), Mexico (11,309 in 2010) and Thailand (20,032 in 2000).

So the U.S. ranks high in this category, but not first. Even using the higher U.S. homicide figure of 11,493 in 2010 from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (cited here), the U.S. still doesn’t rank first internationally.

Annual homicide rate for firearms

Because the U.S. is so big, it's better to compare the frequency of firearm homicides per capita, usually expressed as firearm homicides per 100,000 in national population.

According to the U.N., the U.S. had 3.0 firearm homicides per 100,000 in population in 2009. But there were 14 other nations that had higher rates in 2009, primarily in Latin America and the Caribbean: Honduras (57.6), Jamaica (47.2), St. Kitts and Nevis (44.4), Venezuela (39.0), Guatemala (38.5), Colombia (28.1), Trinidad & Tobago (27.3), Panama (19.3), Dominican Republic (16.9), Bahamas (15.4), Belize (15.4), Mexico (7.9), Paraguay (7.3) and Nicaragua (5.9). Three other nations had higher rates in 2008: El Salvador (39.9), Brazil (18.1) and Ecuador (12.7).

So the U.S. doesn’t rank no. 1 when firearm homicides are adjusted for population.

Where the U.S. does rank high in firearm violence

The main area where the U.S. exceeds the firearm violence of other nations is in comparison to other affluent nations. Using the U.N. data, European nations -- even former eastern bloc countries -- typically have rates well below 1 per 100,000, or far less than one-third the frequency seen in the U.S. The pattern is similar in other advanced industrialized nations, such as Canada, Taiwan, Japan, Australia and New Zealand.

One study published in 2011 confirms this finding. The study, published in the Journal of Trauma -- Injury Infection & Critical Care, found that firearm homicide rates were 19.5 times higher in the U.S. than in 23 other "high income" countries studied, using 2003 data. Rates for other types of gun deaths were also higher in the U.S., but by somewhat smaller margins: 5.8 times higher for firearm suicides (even though overall suicide rates were 30 percent lower in the U.S.) and 5.2 times higher for unintentional firearm deaths.

Our ruling

The Facebook post says the "USA is #1 in gun violence." That's only true if you compare the U.S. with other affluent nations on a per capita basis.

But widening the comparison to all nations, not just the richest ones, there are at least 17 other countries with higher per capita rates of gun homicides, most of them with rates astronomically higher than the U.S. rate.

And measured by raw gun homicides, the U.S. doesn’t rank first -- at least two and possibly as many as five countries have had more gun homicides in recent years than the U.S. did. On balance, we rate this claim Half True.

 

[Saigon]

the U.S. had 9,146 homicides by firearm in 2009. That year, Colombia and Venezuela both exceeded the U.S. total,

You have to laugh, don't you?

Everything is fine folks! The murder rate is in no way high at all! Look....in Colombia it is much higher!!!

Dishonest, ignorant and ridiculous.

The main area where the U.S. exceeds the firearm violence of other nations is in comparison to other affluent nations. Using the U.N. data, European nations -- even former eastern bloc countries -- typically have rates well below 1 per 100,000, or far less than one-third the frequency seen in the U.S. The pattern is similar in other advanced industrialized nations, such as Canada, Taiwan, Japan, Australia and New Zealand.

Now THAT you might want to give some thought to.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Dose of reality, indeed!

With the US at 10.2, we are better than;

Brazil 19.02

Colombia 11.1

El Salvador 41.11

Guatemala 38.52

Honduras 46.7

Jamaica 47.44

Mexico 11.07

Panama 10.92

South Africa 18.5

Swaziland 37.16

Now that is a peer group to be proud of, correct? Here is the other side of the coin;

Australia 1.5

Canada 2.3

Germany 1.1

United Kingdom 0.25

Sweden 1.47

Japan 0.07

Ireland 1.03

But you would rather we be like the first group. Nice to see where you think our nation should be going.

However some of those low ranking countries lead the U.S. in other methods of deaths, and being victimized.

 

[Old Rocks]

Click the order tab. Where is America? Even with it's 3.2 firearm homicide rating? Not at the top.

Jesus wept....for the 500th time - yes, the US has a lower murder rate than Zimbabwe or Somalia.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, the US has a higher murder rate than any other developed nation, bar none.

We all exist on the same planet you know. Dumbass.

It makes sense to compare the US with similar countries - such as Germany, Canada, the UK or France. It does not make sense to compare the US with totally dissimilar countries - such as Uganda, Cuba, Fiji or Estonia.

Are you honestly telling me that you would compare the US levels of education, or banking services, or tax or interest rates with Somalia as a basis for comparison?!

Bad choice there, Saigon.

United States 10.20

Uganda Not listed

Cuba Not listed

Fiji Not listed

Estonia 2.54

Of the 'Not listed', I would guess that the rate in Fiji and Cuba is lower than in the US, and Uganda is considerably higher. Estonia is about 1/4 of our rate.

 

[Old Rocks]

Dose of reality, indeed!

With the US at 10.2, we are better than;

Brazil 19.02

Colombia 11.1

El Salvador 41.11

Guatemala 38.52

Honduras 46.7

Jamaica 47.44

Mexico 11.07

Panama 10.92

South Africa 18.5

Swaziland 37.16

Now that is a peer group to be proud of, correct? Here is the other side of the coin;

Australia 1.5

Canada 2.3

Germany 1.1

United Kingdom 0.25

Sweden 1.47

Japan 0.07

Ireland 1.03

But you would rather we be like the first group. Nice to see where you think our nation should be going.

However some of those low ranking countries lead the U.S. in other methods of deaths, and being victimized.

Really? Links? And victimized in what way? Links or just chalk it down to flap-yap on your part.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I can't help the fact that you two can't handle the truth. You refused to read any of my links and continued to spout your lies.

Here's more to rebut you ridiculous claims.

U.S. #1 By Far In Gun Ownership ? But, Only 28th In Gun Murder Rate | CNS News

Delve into the links given in the article. Or remain in your own ignorance and stupidity. Your gun control arguments are abject failures.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Even more convincingly:

http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/Homicide/Homicides_by_firearms.xls

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list#data (click on the second tab)

 

[Saigon]

Templar -

continued to spout your lies.

What lie have I posted on this thead?

Please be specific.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Dose of reality, indeed!

With the US at 10.2, we are better than;

Brazil 19.02

Colombia 11.1

El Salvador 41.11

Guatemala 38.52

Honduras 46.7

Jamaica 47.44

Mexico 11.07

Panama 10.92

South Africa 18.5

Swaziland 37.16

Now that is a peer group to be proud of, correct? Here is the other side of the coin;

Australia 1.5

Canada 2.3

Germany 1.1

United Kingdom 0.25

Sweden 1.47

Japan 0.07

Ireland 1.03

But you would rather we be like the first group. Nice to see where you think our nation should be going.

However some of those low ranking countries lead the U.S. in other methods of deaths, and being victimized.

Really? Links? And victimized in what way? Links or just chalk it down to flap-yap on your part.

I've got the links, you have the rhetoric. You and Saigon have had your asses handed to you this day. Thank you for playing, once again.

 

[Old Rocks]

Still trying to see the point that we should judge the US of A by the same standards as a third world nation? If you like that kind of government so much, just move to Somalia. In the meantime, we who are sane here in the US will try to remedy a sad situation concerning the number of people that die in the US every year by the gun.

 

[JoeB131]

Facts are an excellent argument against gun control.

What facts are those?

That we have the highest rate of murder in the indstrialized world?

That a gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than a bad guy.

That out of 11,101 gun murder a year, only 201 are classified as "Justifiable" by the FBI?

You don't need a gun, and it won't kill you if they make sure you aren't a crazy person before they give you one.

The best argument for gun control is a five minute conversation with a gun nut.

 

[Old Rocks]

However some of those low ranking countries lead the U.S. in other methods of deaths, and being victimized.

Really? Links? And victimized in what way? Links or just chalk it down to flap-yap on your part.

I've got the links, you have the rhetoric. You and Saigon have had your asses handed to you this day. Thank you for playing, once again.

Dumb fuck, those numbers are from your link;

List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[driveby]

Facts are an excellent argument against gun control.

Well, here are some facts:

The US has four times as many homicides as any other developed country.

The US has been ten and twenty times as many gun-related homicides as any other developed country.

Some 50,000 Americans were deliberately shot last year.

The UK now has its lowest homicide rate for 30 years. Australia's rate of suicide plumetted since instituting gun control.

In the US, 14,748 people were killed by guns last year. In France the number was 682. In Germany it was 690. In Spain it was 390.

Great comparison because we all know France, Germany and Spain are all similar in size and population to the US.........

 

[beagle9]

16 signs of a tyranny
1. Control of public information and opinion: It begins with withholding information, and leads to putting out false or misleading information. A government can develop ministries of propaganda under many guises. They typically call it "public information" or "marketing".
2. Vote fraud used to prevent the election of reformers: It doesn't matter which of the two major party candidates are elected if no real reformer can get nominated, and when news services start knowing the outcomes of elections before it is possible for them to know, then the votes are not being honestly counted.
3. Undue official influence on trials and juries: Nonrandom selection of jury panels, exclusion of those opposed to the law, exclusion of the jury from hearing argument on the law, exclusion of private prosecutors from access to the grand jury, and prevention of parties and their counsels from making effective arguments or challenging the government.
4. Usurpation of undelegated powers: This is usually done with popular support for solving some problem, or to redistribute wealth to the advantage of the supporters of the dominant faction, but it soon leads to the deprivation of rights of minorities and individuals.
5. Seeking a government monopoly on the capability and use of armed force: The first signs are efforts to register or restrict the possession and use of firearms, initially under the guise of "protecting" the public, which, when it actually results in increased crime, provides a basis for further disarmament efforts affecting more people and more weapons.
6. Militarization of law enforcement: Declaring a "war on crime" that becomes a war on civil liberties. Preparation of military forces for internal policing duties.
7. Infiltration and subversion of citizen groups that could be forces for reform: Internal spying and surveillance is the beginning. A sign is false prosecutions of their leaders.
8. Suppression of investigators and whistleblowers: When people who try to uncover high level wrongdoing are threatened, that is a sign the system is not only riddled with corruption, but that the corruption has passed the threshold into active tyranny.
9. Use of the law for competition suppression: It begins with the dominant faction winning support by paying off their supporters and suppressing their supporters' competitors, but leads to public officials themselves engaging in illegal activities and using the law to suppress independent competitors. A good example of this is narcotics trafficking.
10. Subversion of internal checks and balances: This involves the appointment to key positions of persons who can be controlled by their sponsors, and who are then induced to do illegal things. The worst way in which this occurs is in the appointment of judges that will go along with unconstitutional acts by the other branche
11. Creation of a class of officials who are above the law: This is indicated by dismissal of charges for wrongdoing against persons who are "following orders".
12. Increasing dependency of the people on government: The classic approach to domination of the people is to first take everything they have away from them, then make them compliant with the demands of the rulers to get anything back again.
13. Increasing public ignorance of their civic duties and reluctance to perform them: When the people avoid doing things like voting and serving in militias and juries, tyranny is not far behind.
14. Use of staged events to produce popular support: Acts of terrorism, blamed on political opponents, followed immediately with well-prepared proposals for increased powers and budgets for suppressive agencies. Sometimes called a Reichstag plot.
15. Conversion of rights into privileges: Requiring licenses and permits for doing things that the government does not have the delegated power to restrict, except by due process in which the burden of proof is on the petitioner.
16. Political correctness: Many if not most people are susceptible to being recruited to engage in repressive actions against disfavored views or behaviors, and led to pave the way for the dominance of tyrannical government.

And we're seeing every one of those things happening right now, under this communist president.

Well the thing is, is that it is a government now that is obedient to this new global unity of big business or the unity of big business here in America over and above the American citizen, and any President who gets into the seat will reform quickly to the thinking that he or she has to join the workings of what is going on in it all, or be dismissed as being a joke within a set up created quickly by their new handlers, for whom are far more advanced in their thinking than the new President is when he or she is elected. Tyranny ? Ummm, does it actually begin with our government, or does it start with the corps handling our government in ways that benefits them first ? Then we always come in second (i.e. second class citizens upside of our new corporate citizens), that's if we are considered at all in the scheme of things pertaining to our sovereignty, and our liberties within this new global future. Barack may have never even had a chance of resisting the set up with these cats or it is why he is having the troubles that he is having as President (bucking the system), just as Mitt Romney might not have had either or rather any other fresh candidate would have, and so just as I said before about whom might have run, and then had taken the position just as well afterwards, where as they may either be handled or left as a powerless meaningless President in which no one likes or understands anymore.

Obama is ever changing, because he is being handled, but even so, I don't think that his ideas would have been good for this nation anyway, even if he weren't caught up in the global situation of huge power brokers that we are all caught up in right now.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Templar -

continued to spout your lies.

What lie have I posted on this thead?

Please be specific.

The lie of gun control. As specific as I need to get.

 

[Old Rocks]

The lie of gun control? That in the nations that have regulations concerning who can own guns, and what kind of guns they can own have a lower death rate, by an order of magnitude, than we do? That is a proven fact.

 

[TemplarKormac]

The lie of gun control? That in the nations that have regulations concerning who can own guns, and what kind of guns they can own have a lower death rate, by an order of magnitude, than we do? That is a proven fact.

Yeah, just because you said it to be. I have posted many links proving you wrong.

Do try and keep up.