explosion at Ariana Grande concert in Manchester, UK

[Virginia Mom]

Has anyone read On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs by Dave Grossman?

"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.
I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.
"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial. "
You can google to read the rest, I know there are wolves out there, and I don't want to be a sheep led to slaughter because we are scared to speak out about the wolves, or we make excuses for them, and if we don't we are called names. Yep, "there is no safety in denial".

May not be a good idea to aggravate sheep though. They can be ornery critters when riled up.
Greg

I wish more were riled up, but too many making excuses, just waiting for the wolves to attack again, but as long as it's not their loved one, not a big deal.

 

[gtopa1]

Delusional much? Justifying the killing of girls? Are you stable or you like to lie and believe yourself?

I do condemn all killings, I'm against all atrocities commuted by individuals, groups or states.
Is my English clear so far?
But we also need to recognize that Isis, AL qaeda flourished due to the chaos created in the Arab world by the west intervention.
Got it, or I can explain it in another language or manner?

Look guys....growing up as a Muslim we are not taught to hate or to kill.
We are just like everyone else in this world, we work, we hustle and we want to live.

In my opinion greed is the problem. All these wars, invasions, bombings had to result in retaliations.
If you bomb a country of 30 million one or two might try and slep in and bomb you back.
I see no one try and bomb Japan, Korea, New Zealand, singapore....ect. why?
Since a young age I've been say: if you want the honey be ready for the stinging.

The west is giving the sick minded the opportunity to hate. Stop invading and toppling regimes and I guarantee you the terrorists will have no funding and no one to recruit.

Are you talking about the terror attack 1972? Was that because the US invaded Iraq in 2002?

Sorry but your excuses for your fellow Muslims that kill innocent children is repulsive.

You keep claiming how peaceful Muslims are and then excuse the violence.

Sorry, 911 is still fresh, this and California and France and the pirate ships and on and on and on and on and on. There is a lot of hate.

Here are terror attacks, please make an excuse for you fellow Muslim brothers.
List of Islamist terrorist attacks - Wikipedia

Most Muslims are peaceful, but what floors me is the lack of condemning these attacks from you "peace loving" Muslims. You will always condemn and then add a but and that is a sign you really aren't condemning anyone.

Oh fucking bullshit. Your selective hearing is no one's problem but yours.

Are you actually so fucking full of yourself that you think a billion Muslims around the world OWE YOU an explanation because a few wags on an interenet message board can't swim their way out of a Composition Fallacy? Really?

Muslims don't owe me a thing but this guy claims he is peaceful then justifies the killing of 22 innocent kids, I am challenging his BS, I also will continue to call his BS.

Maybe you're losing something in translation.

"In my opinion greed is the problem. All these wars, invasions, bombings had to result in retaliations.". So where are you on the Iran/Iraq war waged by Saddam, or the invasion of Kuwait? Or the murder of the Marsh Arabs? You see once you expand the scope of the argument it becomes quite meaningless. The issue is some scum who murdered 22 people in Manchester. He was English. He became a useful idiot for an unworthy cause. END OF ARGUMENT!!! Expanding it to "all Moslems" is just as silly as defending it because of some historical connection. Watching President Trump dancing in the middle of a hundred swords..knowing that each one would get between the President and harms way even unto death...learn the lesson we should.

Greg

 

[depotoo]

Islam is not just a religion. It is a theocracy, incompatible with our form of government. That is why we broke from England. There is no desire in most Muslims to leave their theocracy in their homeland, and they are taught in their Mosques, theocracy is part of being Islamic. That is a genuine contradiction to our way of life. Our form of government also states all are created equal, yet Islam does not see that as so. Women are chattel, and or lesser than a man, depending on which sect. How anyone cannot see that, is beyond me.

We don't have some document that says we have to tolerate this shit because of "foundations" we were built on, we were built on soil and on blood.

Where in this thread did I say you have to tolerate it?

We here have a document called the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. They guarantee that people can practice their faith freely without any sort of reprisal from the government. And we punish those who take that belief too far and violate the rights of others. But it doesn't go as far as exterminating an entire religion based off of the actions of that.

I'm an American, and I hold American values sacrosanct to any others besides the precepts of my faith. And any suggestions that America violate its very essence to wipe out an entire belief system is pretty offensive to me.

 

[gtopa1]

Has anyone read On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs by Dave Grossman?

"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.
I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.
"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial. "
You can google to read the rest, I know there are wolves out there, and I don't want to be a sheep led to slaughter because we are scared to speak out about the wolves, or we make excuses for them, and if we don't we are called names. Yep, "there is no safety in denial".

May not be a good idea to aggravate sheep though. They can be ornery critters when riled up.
Greg

I wish more were riled up, but too many making excuses, just waiting for the wolves to attack again, but as long as it's not their loved one, not a big deal.

Just been watching a sheep dancing with a hundred swords; no one is waiting now. That is in the past!!

Greg

 

[Papageorgio]

He's is not to waste his time with bigots. I don't blame him

One talks about Taqqiyah, the other keeps calling me a bigot and he is the bigot. You guys are sick minded.
Muslims in the west are doctors, engineers, nurses, policemen, FBI agents, chefs, basketball players, singers, baseball players, politicians, congressmen.....you name it. Couple of nutjobs do a hate crime and you talking about eradicating everyone. Why we don't say the same about whites committing all the mass shootings? Why don't we label all catholics as rapists? Why don't we label all evangelicals as uneducated and racists?
Simply because idiots adhere to every group, and we shouldn't put all in the same basket.

I already told you there are good Muslims that love peace and productive great citizens. Then you have a small percentage that you fall into, a hateful, violence justifying lunatics such as yourself.

I don't think all Muslims are like you, you are a bad person, 99% are great.

 

[gtopa1]

He's is not to waste his time with bigots. I don't blame him

One talks about Taqqiyah, the other keeps calling me a bigot and he is the bigot. You guys are sick minded.
Muslims in the west are doctors, engineers, nurses, policemen, FBI agents, chefs, basketball players, singers, baseball players, politicians, congressmen.....you name it. Couple of nutjobs do a hate crime and you talking about eradicating everyone. Why we don't say the same about whites committing all the mass shootings? Why don't we label all catholics as rapists? Why don't we label all evangelicals as uneducated and racists?
Simply because idiots adhere to every group, and we shouldn't put all in the same basket.

I already told you there are good Muslims that love peace and productive great citizens. Then you have a small percentage that you fall into, a hateful, violence justifying lunatics such as yourself.

I don't think all Muslims are like you, you are a bad person, 99% are great.

Woe doggy!!!That's a bit harsh.Issa seems to be falling into the same problem of conflation that others are doing on the other side of things. I am all for rounding up those scum who are associating with terrorist groups. That means making a Law against associating with terrorists rather than trying to prove that they are ready to plant bombs. If they can do that for Crime Gangs then it should be able to be applied to terrorist gangs and their useful idiots.

 

[gtopa1]

[
Like I said, you need to ask the person who said that. I'm simply asking you to stop insisting someone suggested committing a genocide against Muslims BECAUSE THEY DID NOT.

Tilly logic;

Normal person: "oh look at that bird. It waddles, it has webbed feet, and quacks."

Tilly: "But don't you dare call it a duck!"

Idiot.

Stop saying stupid things....

Tilly saying something stupid? Nah; I've not seen that before. She's usually spot on. What exactly don't you agree with?

Greg

 

[Pogo]

Blah blah blah. I feel sorry I waste my time with you. Clueless and bigot to say the least. Go on it your life, find something positive to do, instead of throwing false accusations on the net against people that you know nothing about.

Oh so you want me to just condemn and not add anything else, that's how you like it? Well sir I'm gonna be the mature person and please you here.

I condemn all acts of terrorism.
Happy?

I'm just glad I don't live among bigots like you. Life is good.

I don't justify killing people. Like I said not one post did you flat out condemn the killings without adding a but. Not one and you have the nerve to call someone else a bigot? Give me a break, you have no credibility. I will flat out condemn any pretend Christian that kills an abortionist. I will flat out condemn anyone pretend Christian that causes the death of another living human. You add a but, see the difference?

Yeah, real sincere there, your true colors have already been shown. Your bigotry and hate is already out there for all to see.

Poor victim, lol! I didn't waste my time, I exposed a liar and a bigot in you. Your hate is now coming through and you have been exposed. Maybe you need counseling from your religious leaders so you can let go of the hate and so peace will be with you.

I love how you are now trying to tell me what to do, cute ploy for a bigot such as yourself. Sorry I exposed the real you, I knew you were hoping to get away with a con job.

I notice you keep claiming to have "exposed" hate, lying bigotry, whatever --- yet never actually expose it.

Is this the new reality? Just claim to have done something, and it becomes retroactive history?
Top speed, comrade.

Here's another one:

I love peaceful Muslims and know a few, however you just give excuses, you are a minority as fears as Muslims because you justify violence. Congrats, you and your terrorist brethren must really love you.

STILL no evidence.

More?

He's is not to waste his time with bigots. I don't blame him

One talks about Taqqiyah, the other keeps calling me a bigot and he is the bigot. You guys are sick minded.
Muslims in the west are doctors, engineers, nurses, policemen, FBI agents, chefs, basketball players, singers, baseball players, politicians, congressmen.....you name it. Couple of nutjobs do a hate crime and you talking about eradicating everyone. Why we don't say the same about whites committing all the mass shootings? Why don't we label all catholics as rapists? Why don't we label all evangelicals as uneducated and racists?
Simply because idiots adhere to every group, and we shouldn't put all in the same basket.

I already told you there are good Muslims that love peace and productive great citizens. Then you have a small percentage that you fall into, a hateful, violence justifying lunatics such as yourself.

I don't think all Muslims are like you, you are a bad person, 99% are great.

I asked you yesterday where this poster is "justifying hateful violence". Have you ever come up with anything?

You do need to prove that yanno. Because if you can't ----- you're just making it up.

 

[Pogo]

We don't have some document that says we have to tolerate this shit because of "foundations" we were built on, we were built on soil and on blood.

Where in this thread did I say you have to tolerate it?

We here have a document called the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. They guarantee that people can practice their faith freely without any sort of reprisal from the government. And we punish those who take that belief too far and violate the rights of others. But it doesn't go as far as exterminating an entire religion based off of the actions of that.

I'm an American, and I hold American values sacrosanct to any others besides the precepts of my faith. And any suggestions that America violate its very essence to wipe out an entire belief system is pretty offensive to me.

Islam is not just a religion. It is a theocracy, incompatible with our form of government. That is why we broke from England. There is no desire in most Muslims to leave their theocracy in their homeland, and they are taught in their Mosques, theocracy is part of being Islamic. That is a genuine contradiction to our way of life. Our form of government also states all are created equal, yet Islam does not see that as so. Women are chattel, and or lesser than a man, depending on which sect. How anyone cannot see that, is beyond me.

Wrong, we did not break from England because it was a theocracy. Your puerile attempt to move the goalposts by categorizing your target into one bag while all other religions fit in another one, that's as old as the hills and has never been valid argument. Hitler was using the same argument 75 years ago to kill Jews. Nice role model.

And once again I have DONE YOUR WORK FOR YOU putting your quote where it belongs because you can't be bothered to figure it out for yourself even though everybody else has no issue doing it --- lazy-ass fuckstick.

 

[Pogo]

I worked for a guy that was muslim. Sweetheart of a guy. Knew him for years cuz he owns a couple of the local mini markets and gas station where we used to live. One day I asked if he was hiring and he said sure. So..he hired me. But I noticed that one of his many cousins (they were all from Syria) was not counting money people would give him for money orders and told him they were not counting and they should cuz that 400 buck money order may be only 300 handed to him in cash. Oops. Women should know their place and never question another muslim..especially a family member. Sure enough..my til was short one day...and of course it had to be me..not the cousin clerk. He was not so sweet any more. He said women are to work, not comment on things beyond their understanding. And he fired me for theft. Funny thing that was not funny ha ha is...other women that worked for him later on they told him the same thing and were also fired.

No thanks. Sweet as pie. Until a female said the wrong thing to protect HIM and his business.

That's fucked up.
But it's patriarchy -- the idea of male domination. And that's a social construct, not a religious one, which is an important distinction. This one happens within and without Islam or any other religion, depending on cultural history.

I keep noting this over and over --- culture will always trump religion. If there's a conflict between the two, the cultural drive usually prevails. Religion is taught at the most from an early age when a child can understand communication in religious teachihng, but culture is taught from birth 24/7 in everything.

F'rinstance somebody yesterday brought up a hypothetical "honor killing". That's done by Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, followers of other religions, and followers of no religion. All of those religions prohibit it. So again, where there's a conflict between religion and culture, the latter prevails unless the religion can muster up enough influence to stop it.

This particular cultural artifact (patriarchy) unfortunately is virtually universal worldwide.

 

[WEATHER53]

I know the United Methodist Church of USA is not having people blown up using their name
Not once
If it was, we would have had the good sense to close it down long time ago
But decade or more of racial and Religious PC took good sense away.
Maybe now that some celebs have seen the horror show they might sing a different tune ?

How were they on lynchings?

Greg

Dumb ass lib deflection bullshit

 

[WEATHER53]

Does not matter how many good ones there are
There are too many bad ones coming from the same name and address
Wake up wanna be dead sheep!

 

[Pogo]

That's the same pic that was used to sell the fake news story "The Amish In America Commit Their Vote To Donald Rump; Mathematically Guaranteeing Him A Presidential Victory"

 

[Marion Morrison]

He's is not to waste his time with bigots. I don't blame him

One talks about Taqqiyah, the other keeps calling me a bigot and he is the bigot. You guys are sick minded.
Muslims in the west are doctors, engineers, nurses, policemen, FBI agents, chefs, basketball players, singers, baseball players, politicians, congressmen.....you name it. Couple of nutjobs do a hate crime and you talking about eradicating everyone. Why we don't say the same about whites committing all the mass shootings? Why don't we label all catholics as rapists? Why don't we label all evangelicals as uneducated and racists?
Simply because idiots adhere to every group, and we shouldn't put all in the same basket.

Just because a Muslim's a doctor, it doesn't mean he won't try to cut his daughter's head off with a sword if she wants to marry a non-Muslim.

 

[Pogo]

I know the United Methodist Church of USA is not having people blown up using their name
Not once
If it was, we would have had the good sense to close it down long time ago
But decade or more of racial and Religious PC took good sense away.
Maybe now that some celebs have seen the horror show they might sing a different tune ?

Interesting you should pick Methodists in a discussion involving terrorism -- Methodists were closely "associated" with the Ku Klux Klan -- that is, if one likes to traffic in Association Fallacies, it's there for the taking. They found some goals in common including Prohibition, and made up a disproportionate slice of the KKK membership. William J. "Colonel Joe" Simmons, who rekindled the Klan in 1915 after it was gone 40 years was a Methodist minister in fact.

Yet how many of us tremble in fear at the sight of a Methodist?

There's the pitfall of the Association Fallacy, and fallacies in general. The fallacist switches it on when it suits his purpose, and then switches it off when it becomes inconvenient.

 

[Marion Morrison]

Issa will be doing less Taqqiyah than Margot/Esmerelda.

That's her schtick. I take Issa at his word.

Margot's mission is to sow discord and misinformation.

 

[Pogo]

I'm just glad I don't live among bigots like you. Life is good.

Delusional much? Justifying the killing of girls? Are you stable or you like to lie and believe yourself?

I do condemn all killings, I'm against all atrocities commuted by individuals, groups or states.
Is my English clear so far?
But we also need to recognize that Isis, AL qaeda flourished due to the chaos created in the Arab world by the west intervention.
Got it, or I can explain it in another language or manner?

Oh fucking bullshit. Your selective hearing is no one's problem but yours.

Are you actually so fucking full of yourself that you think a billion Muslims around the world OWE YOU an explanation because a few wags on an interenet message board can't swim their way out of a Composition Fallacy? Really?

Muslims don't owe me a thing but this guy claims he is peaceful then justifies the killing of 22 innocent kids, I am challenging his BS, I also will continue to call his BS.

There you go again justifying. Man, you are predictable you so called man of "peace". Lol!

I don't justify killing people. Like I said not one post did you flat out condemn the killings without adding a but. Not one and you have the nerve to call someone else a bigot? Give me a break, you have no credibility. I will flat out condemn any pretend Christian that kills an abortionist. I will flat out condemn anyone pretend Christian that causes the death of another living human. You add a but, see the difference?

His "but" does not refer to religion. It refers to "ISIS" (I call them DAESH), which is a radial political movement. He's making the distinction that you're refusing to make, because you're dishonest enough to traffic in Association Fallacies. As exemplified in your own example above ---

"I will flat out condemn any pretend Christian that kills an abortionist. I will flat out condemn anyone pretend Christian that causes the death of another living human."​

Sure, but you don't then try to plunk the blame on Christianity FOR those radicals. When it's your own backyard they become "pretend Christians". When "we" do it they're "outliers" -- when "they" do it they're faithfully executing the tenets of their religon.

That's having it both ways, and that's a Double Standard, and that's dishonest.

Issa's making the same distinction I've been making throughout this thread -- that Double Standard. Said this many times before, saying it again --- if you want to base your arguments on Association Fallacies then at least be consistent with it.

 

[Pogo]

We don't have some document that says we have to tolerate this shit because of "foundations" we were built on, we were built on soil and on blood.

Where in this thread did I say you have to tolerate it?

We here have a document called the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. They guarantee that people can practice their faith freely without any sort of reprisal from the government. And we punish those who take that belief too far and violate the rights of others. But it doesn't go as far as exterminating an entire religion based off of the actions of that.

I'm an American, and I hold American values sacrosanct to any others besides the precepts of my faith. And any suggestions that America violate its very essence to wipe out an entire belief system is pretty offensive to me.

Also where does it say in your Document that you cannot build a Wall to protect your nation from swarms crossing your border illegally?

Where does it say in your Document that you have to allow half The Third World to just turn up and they can stay?

I'll tell you where it says those things: NOWHERE that's where.

And don't bring up The Statue of Liberty inscription from that God Hating Proto-Communist Emma Lazarus, she wrote "The New Colossus" in 1883 and the plaque wasn't put on The Statue of Liberty until 1903.

The United States Constitution was written in 1787 and ratified in 1788 and The United States Bill of Rights was created in 1789 and ratified in 1791.

The Leftists who were Bedwetting at Trumps Muslim ban were all screaming that the justification for allowing Islamic hordes to charge into America was that God Hating Proto-Communist Emma Lazarus' gibberish on the plaque on The Statue of Liberty, the uneducated morons don't even know their own Constitution or Bill of Rights or they'd know the Emma Lazarus gibberish ISN'T contained in either of those documents.

Uhhh...nnnnnnnnnnnno. The courts, along with everybody else, didn't need to go back any further than one year, when candidate Rump publicly stated "Donald The Rump is calling for a complete and total (<redundant) shutdown of Muslims entering the United States".

That's not "Somalis" or "Iraqis" or any other country he later listed. That's a religion. Hence the anti-Constitutionality.

 

[Pogo]

If history is repeating itself......it is the Radicals wanting another Grand Caliphate movement to take over the World.

If History repeats itself.........It will be the West conquering it to stop it's spread.

The cycle of History has a habit of happening again...........Sooner or later the Terrorist will commit an attack that will so anger the Western World that the Western World will invade the entire Middle East.

Which is what the Death Cult Wants.

It is exactly what ISIS wants. Armegeddon.

The situation is this, why do Muslims who adhere to Islam want to even live in Western nations?

Everything about Islam is incompatible with living in ANY Western nation.

If you want to live in another nation, then when in Rome do as the Romans. The Muslims in Western nations want to adhere to a backward philosophy that was invented in the 7th Century and has not adapted or modernised since because the teachings of Mohammed cannot be adapted, deleted or even modernised in any way shape or form.

So you have a group of people who hate Western values, but who want to live in Western nations who have the mentally of the 7th Century where they DEMAND that women dress a certain way, where they DEMAND you cannot drink alcohol or eat certain foods, where women who are not dressed as they DEMAND are perfectly entitled to be raped or defiled in any way by the Muslim men because the Muslim men think that basically ALL Western women are just sluts and are therefore objects to rape (the Muslim men treat their own women lower than dogs) plus all the other stuff they scream about that they want changing.

If I go to a Muslim nation I would be told, they would DEMAND I cover myself up and speak when I'm spoken to or else.

They come to Western nations, yet don't want to dump Islam and adapt and live as we do in the West, they should be FORCED to live by our customs and our traditions or be told to GTFO and go back to an Islamic nation.

Still yet more conflation of "religion" with "culture". Don't sit here and pretend you're not smarter than that.

Some of these other knuckledraggers in this thread, I expect they don't have the intellectual capacity. But you do.

 

[Pogo]

If history is repeating itself......it is the Radicals wanting another Grand Caliphate movement to take over the World.

If History repeats itself.........It will be the West conquering it to stop it's spread.

The cycle of History has a habit of happening again...........Sooner or later the Terrorist will commit an attack that will so anger the Western World that the Western World will invade the entire Middle East.

Which is what the Death Cult Wants.

It is exactly what ISIS wants. Armegeddon.

The situation is this, why do Muslims who adhere to Islam want to even live in Western nations?

Everything about Islam is incompatible with living in ANY Western nation.

If you want to live in another nation, then when in Rome do as the Romans. The Muslims in Western nations want to adhere to a backward philosophy that was invented in the 7th Century and has not adapted or modernised since because the teachings of Mohammed cannot be adapted, deleted or even modernised in any way shape or form.

So you have a group of people who hate Western values, but who want to live in Western nations who have the mentally of the 7th Century where they DEMAND that women dress a certain way, where they DEMAND you cannot drink alcohol or eat certain foods, where women who are not dressed as they DEMAND are perfectly entitled to be raped or defiled in any way by the Muslim men because the Muslim men think that basically ALL Western women are just sluts and are therefore objects to rape (the Muslim men treat their own women lower than dogs) plus all the other stuff they scream about that they want changing.

If I go to a Muslim nation I would be told, they would DEMAND I cover myself up and speak when I'm spoken to or else.

They come to Western nations, yet don't want to dump Islam and adapt and live as we do in the West, they should be FORCED to live by our customs and our traditions or be told to GTFO and go back to an Islamic nation.

Lots of Muslims live by western values because they are western. You don't have to "dump Islam" to believe in a Constitutional and secular government, human rights, equality, women's rights, etc.

"human rights, equality, women's rights,"

Okay what are Muslim men's opinions on gays and the LGBTQ crowd and on women?

It's okay darling, we already know what the Muslim men's opinions on all that are.

^^ Aptly sums up the narrowmindedness in this thread --- "don't bother to tell me what you believe, *I'LL* tell you what you believe".