"God" is a tyrant.

[Czernobog]

Proposed: The Christian God is a tyrant determined to force everyone on the planet to convert to Christianity, and worship as a Christian, and the illusion of "Free Will" is a pretence that he created to convince you that observance was your own idea.

Otherwise, why fill the Bible with references of the eternal torture, and suffering that would befall non-believers after judgement, when one dies. Now, the first question that is going to be asked is going to be an attempt at a distraction: "Why should I care what the Bible says, since I'm an Atheist?" However, it doesn't matter what my theological position is, does it? "The truth is the truth," right? So, if the Bible is the Truth, then the things that are in the Bible are "the Truth" whether I believe them, or not. Which, brings us right back around to my question. If God is not a tyrant, and does not demand worship from everyone, then why threaten anyone who does not believe? If God does not care one way, or the other, if someone chooses to believe, or not, why bother with all of the threats?

 

[Vastator]

The Bible is a collection of writings from a bunch of Jewish sandni@@ers. It's just a book. Why do you take it so seriously? If god thought something so important for you to know, I'm sure he could get the message to you clearly, and definitely. Have you ever had a boss give you task instructions allegorically? Ever heard of a manager using metaphors to explain what he expects? Now imagine your boss doing this via writing it down, and leaving it to chance that at some later date; his employees would not only read it; but actually have a clue what the hell hes even talking about. Not to mention the problem of vetting the info to see if it really comes from the source claimed...

Yeah... that's the streamlined foolproof plan of an eternal, omniscient, Omni present super being...
It's just a book. Rather a collection of books. Poorly edited as well.

 

[Czernobog]

The Bible is a collection of writings from a bunch of Jewish sandni@@ers. It's just a book. Why do you take it so seriously? If god thought something so important for you to know, I'm sure he get the message to you clearly and definitely. Have you ever had a boss give you task instructions allegorically? Ever heard of a manager using metaphors to explain what he expects? Now imagine your boss doing this via writing it down, and leaving it to chance that at some later date; his employees would not only read it; but actually have a clue what the hell hes even talking about. Not to mention the problem of vetting the info to see if it really comes from the source claimed...

Yeah... that's the streamlined foolproof plan of an eternal, omniscient, Omni present super being...
It's just a book. Rather a collection of books. Poorly edited as well.

I don't disagree. I was simply making a point.

 

[emilynghiem]

Proposed: The Christian God is a tyrant determined to force everyone on the planet to convert to Christianity, and worship as a Christian, and the illusion of "Free Will" is a pretence that he created to convince you that observance was your own idea.

Otherwise, why fill the Bible with references of the eternal torture, and suffering that would befall non-believers after judgement, when one dies. Now, the first question that is going to be asked is going to be an attempt at a distraction: "Why should I care what the Bible says, since I'm an Atheist?" However, it doesn't matter what my theological position is, does it? "The truth is the truth," right? So, if the Bible is the Truth, then the things that are in the Bible are "the Truth" whether I believe them, or not. Which, brings us right back around to my question. If God is not a tyrant, and does not demand worship from everyone, then why threaten anyone who does not believe? If God does not care one way, or the other, if someone chooses to believe, or not, why bother with all of the threats?

Dear Czernobog
Try substituting NATURE or LIFE for "God."
is NATURE a tyrant for its preexistent laws and ways of how the world works?
Is LIFE a tyrant for how we are born, go through stages of growth learning and development, before we die?

now, isn't our relationship with NATURE or LIFE
up to us to decide if we are going to work with it or try to fight against it.

isn't part of the learning curve making peace and learning to work with
laws of the universe, nature and life. And isn't that up to human conscience to deal with?

 

[Czernobog]

Proposed: The Christian God is a tyrant determined to force everyone on the planet to convert to Christianity, and worship as a Christian, and the illusion of "Free Will" is a pretence that he created to convince you that observance was your own idea.

Otherwise, why fill the Bible with references of the eternal torture, and suffering that would befall non-believers after judgement, when one dies. Now, the first question that is going to be asked is going to be an attempt at a distraction: "Why should I care what the Bible says, since I'm an Atheist?" However, it doesn't matter what my theological position is, does it? "The truth is the truth," right? So, if the Bible is the Truth, then the things that are in the Bible are "the Truth" whether I believe them, or not. Which, brings us right back around to my question. If God is not a tyrant, and does not demand worship from everyone, then why threaten anyone who does not believe? If God does not care one way, or the other, if someone chooses to believe, or not, why bother with all of the threats?

Dear Czernobog
Try substituting NATURE or LIFE for "God."
is NATURE a tyrant for its preexistent laws and ways of how the world works?
Is LIFE a tyrant for how we are born, go through stages of growth learning and development, before we die?

now, isn't our relationship with NATURE or LIFE
up to us to decide if we are going to work with it or try to fight against it.

isn't part of the learning curve making peace and learning to work with
laws of the universe, nature and life. And isn't that up to human conscience to deal with?

Except the Bible doesn't talk about living this life in harmony with God. It, repeatedly, talks about the eternal gnashing of teeth, torture, suffering, and damnation, after death that comes to those who do not join in the cult of Jesus worshipers.

You want to make it sound as if Christianity is no different than Zen Buddhism, except we both know that's not true.

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[S.J.]

All he is saying is that if you reject him, you will live in the absence of him. He doesn't exist to serve you but he will accept you if you accept him. It appears that you don't, which is your choice.

 

[Czernobog]

All he is saying is that if you reject him, you will live in the absence of him. He doesn't exist to serve you but he will accept you if you accept him. It appears that you don't, which is your choice.

No, it's not. The Bible is quite visceral, particularly in Revelations, in it's descriptions of the suffering of the damned. Jesus was also quite vivid in his description of Hell in his story of the suffering of the Rich man in Hell. You are either ignorant of what the Bible says, of you are trying to understate the case, now that it is being called out. Because, frankly, I am separated from that God now, and I do not feel terribly tortured. So, if that is all the Bible is referring to, then it greatly overstated it's case.

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[emilynghiem]

Proposed: The Christian God is a tyrant determined to force everyone on the planet to convert to Christianity, and worship as a Christian, and the illusion of "Free Will" is a pretence that he created to convince you that observance was your own idea.

Otherwise, why fill the Bible with references of the eternal torture, and suffering that would befall non-believers after judgement, when one dies. Now, the first question that is going to be asked is going to be an attempt at a distraction: "Why should I care what the Bible says, since I'm an Atheist?" However, it doesn't matter what my theological position is, does it? "The truth is the truth," right? So, if the Bible is the Truth, then the things that are in the Bible are "the Truth" whether I believe them, or not. Which, brings us right back around to my question. If God is not a tyrant, and does not demand worship from everyone, then why threaten anyone who does not believe? If God does not care one way, or the other, if someone chooses to believe, or not, why bother with all of the threats?

Dear Czernobog
Try substituting NATURE or LIFE for "God."
is NATURE a tyrant for its preexistent laws and ways of how the world works?
Is LIFE a tyrant for how we are born, go through stages of growth learning and development, before we die?

now, isn't our relationship with NATURE or LIFE
up to us to decide if we are going to work with it or try to fight against it.

isn't part of the learning curve making peace and learning to work with
laws of the universe, nature and life. And isn't that up to human conscience to deal with?

Except the Bible doesn't talk about living this life in harmony with God. It, repeatedly, talks about the eternal gnashing of teeth, torture, suffering, and damnation, after death that comes to those who do not join in the cult of Jesus worshipers.

You want to make it sound as if Christianity is no different than Zen Buddhism, except we both know that's not true.

Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk

Dear Czernobog
1. my understanding of hell and burning in the lake of fire is more like a purging or purgatory process to purify. If you've ever been through a bout of anger, where it burned you up, and all the impure thoughts came out in the open and even out of your mouth, that's the process I'm talking about.
If you look up the stages of Grief and Recovery, "ANGER" is one of the natural phases that humans go through if we are going to get to a better place. The point and purpose is NOT to stay stuck in Anger, nor in hell either. Only the good is eternal, while the evil is "burned away."

Where anger becomes a danger to ourselves, is when we hold on to ILL WILL or UNFORGIVENESS and WON'T LET IT GO.

This is like holding on to a burning ember or hot potato. To grab onto the very thing that will burn us. So of course we are going to get burned, and howl in pain and suffering! They say that unforgiveness is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other person to die -- we only harm ourselves by holding on to toxic negative energy thoughts and fears.

The point of "Christ Jesus" is to understand Justice with Mercy as more powerful than Retributive Justice which comes back to bite us. Love of truth that liberates us is what overcomes fear that cripples us.

2. In Buddhism, this is called KARMA.
We can either pay back bad karma with MORE bad karma which repeats the cycle
and ENTRAPS us in suffering.

or we can do differently and BREAK the cycle of sin or karma
and answer negative with positive to change the situation around.

In Buddhism it is called answering Anger with Compassion.
Correcting Ignorance with Wisdom.
Answering Greed with Generosity and Charity.

Christianity takes this to a more concentrated level by uniting
people collectively in one spirit of Restorative Justice, or Justice and Peace,
by naming it under CHRIST JESUS as a central unifying authority.

Buddhism teaches this individually but doesn't teach it collectively
as Christianity teaches that this will be fulfilled in the future.

So yes these are different, but they still teach the same universal process.
Buddhism focuses on the individual MIND and discipline internally to find INNER PEACE.
Christianity focuses on the RELATIONSHIP between individuals
with each other as neighbors and with humanity collectively as the Kingdom of God
or heavenly peace on earth.

We need both levels inside and out.

 

[S.J.]

No, it's not. The Bible is quite visceral, particularly in Revelations, in it's descriptions of the suffering of the damned. Jesus was also quite vivid in his description of Hell in his story of the suffering of the Rich man in Hell.

You misunderstand the Bible. Jesus is not threatening to send you to Hell, he's telling you that if you don't accept God, God will not accept you. "Hell" is living in the absence of God, and there's no protection from evil. BTW, it's "Revelation", not Revelation(s).

Because, frankly, I am separates from that God now, and I do not feel terribly tortured.

You haven't left Earth yet either.

 

[emilynghiem]

All he is saying is that if you reject him, you will live in the absence of him. He doesn't exist to serve you but he will accept you if you accept him. It appears that you don't, which is your choice.

No, it's not. The Bible is quite visceral, particularly in Revelations, in it's descriptions of the suffering of the damned. Jesus was also quite vivid in his description of Hell in his story of the suffering of the Rich man in Hell. You are either ignorant of what the Bible says, of you are trying to understate the case, now that it is being called out. Because, frankly, I am separated from that God now, and I do not feel terribly tortured. So, if that is all the Bible is referring to, then it greatly overstated it's case.

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1. You AREN't separated from God where you find refuge in TRUTH, which is God's realm. As long as you ask, you receive, so you are not blocked in that sense Czernobog
1a. it is NOT a sin to be born secular gentile and be under natural laws of science and reason. This just means you relate to universal truth in nontheistic secular terms.
that is the second fold of the same flock. it is distinct but not separated outside of God because God is the source of NATURE, so seeking natural truth is still seeking understanding of God. Just in secular natural terms!
2. where you cannot forgive and let go of negative thinking about Christianity, that does create STRESS in your mind and on your body. You may not see the effects, but people with no fear have less stress and better health. To whatever degree you still hold to NEGATIVE thinking that ties up energy that could be invested in POSITIVE thinking and solutions.
2b. I also see more POSITIVE and OPENNESS in you, for asking for correction and reaching out. You are NOT as closed to resolving these issues, as say, some Christians I know who are VERY unforgiving of nontheists and secularists they don't understand either!

So that may explain why you do not feel so much suffering.
You seem more FORGIVING, OPEN and willing to discuss and explore these differences.
you ARE ASKING for answers, so that is the equivalent of
"knocking and the door shall be opened unto you"

You ARE open to God or truth to come, by ACTIVELY seeking truth and ASKING.

it's when you slam the door on people that this creates the suffering.
As long as we keep asking, then the truth will set us free from strife and conflict
because we can resolve these by communicating and sharing understanding.

Thank you Czernobog
Keep asking those difficult questions
and you will get the answers wisdom and insight to satisfy what you're seeking

 

[Mousterian]

Of course the Abrahamic god is a tyrant. There is evidence of this in many places in the Bible.
A direct command to genocide, slavery, rape, pillage...
Deut.20:
10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.

 

[emilynghiem]

Of course the Abrahamic god is a tyrant. There is evidence of this in many places in the Bible.
A direct command to genocide, slavery, rape, pillage...
Deut.20:
10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God.

Dear Mousterian
that's the OT earlier on in human history and development.
compare it to the authoritarian relationship that parents have with YOUNGER children
who are DEPENDENT on elders in the household to follow rules FOR THEIR OWN SAFETY
vs.
the relationship parents have with ADULT children who are responsible
for managing their own households. there is more free will to learn from
consequences of one's own actions when one is MATURE as an ADULT.

similar to OT and NT.
When we become spiritually mature and SHARE
responsibility for enforcing laws AS EQUALS, then we look to
parental or governmental authority DIFFERENTLY.

 

[ding]

Proposed: The Christian God is a tyrant determined to force everyone on the planet to convert to Christianity, and worship as a Christian, and the illusion of "Free Will" is a pretence that he created to convince you that observance was your own idea.

Otherwise, why fill the Bible with references of the eternal torture, and suffering that would befall non-believers after judgement, when one dies. Now, the first question that is going to be asked is going to be an attempt at a distraction: "Why should I care what the Bible says, since I'm an Atheist?" However, it doesn't matter what my theological position is, does it? "The truth is the truth," right? So, if the Bible is the Truth, then the things that are in the Bible are "the Truth" whether I believe them, or not. Which, brings us right back around to my question. If God is not a tyrant, and does not demand worship from everyone, then why threaten anyone who does not believe? If God does not care one way, or the other, if someone chooses to believe, or not, why bother with all of the threats?

See Job 40 for God's response.

 

[ding]

The Bible is a collection of writings from a bunch of Jewish sandni@@ers. It's just a book. Why do you take it so seriously? If god thought something so important for you to know, I'm sure he could get the message to you clearly, and definitely. Have you ever had a boss give you task instructions allegorically? Ever heard of a manager using metaphors to explain what he expects? Now imagine your boss doing this via writing it down, and leaving it to chance that at some later date; his employees would not only read it; but actually have a clue what the hell hes even talking about. Not to mention the problem of vetting the info to see if it really comes from the source claimed...

Yeah... that's the streamlined foolproof plan of an eternal, omniscient, Omni present super being...
It's just a book. Rather a collection of books. Poorly edited as well.

George Washington admonishes you, patriot.

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports...In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens...”

“…And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.” George Washington, Farewell Address, Sept 17, 1796

The Will of the People: Readings in American Democracy (Chicago: Great Books Foundation, 2001), 38.

 

[Mudda]

dingbat is a god tyrant.

 

[emilynghiem]

dingbat is a god tyrant.

Mudda compared with whom?
Next to some really fundamentalist types I've met who could barely tolerate
a discussion with me, as a fellow believer even, ding is a gift in comparison.
Opinionated and convicted in sticking to principles, yes,
but made it very clear his intent was to open up discussion more of
dealing with differences instead of shutting down dialogue with emotional barriers.
Or at least that's what I got out of what ding has posted, and stuck to as far
as I can see.

I think you get what you give, in this business.
Since I believe in inclusion and consensus not coercion,
I don't get the tyrant tirade treatment from people like ding willing to
discuss rationally. I still do get that tyrant stuff from people unable to
deal with secular gentiles, as I am equally that as I am a believer.

If you approach ding with openness to discuss with reason,
you are more likely to get that in return. Just make it clear what your intent is.

 

[emilynghiem]

All he is saying is that if you reject him, you will live in the absence of him. He doesn't exist to serve you but he will accept you if you accept him. It appears that you don't, which is your choice.

Hi S.J.
If find for people who take an authoritarian judgmental approach with others,
the same is meted unto them.
for those who grant mercy with justice, afford the same for themselves.

We are forgiven as we forgive others.
We are judged by our words and actions, as we judge others.

Thus we get the justice we give, we reap what we sow.
For God to forgive our sins, we forgive others and when we find ourselves unable, we ask God's help through Christ to have grace and charity
where we ourselves fall short.

If you look at the tone of how you say things and how I say things,
you can see it's reflecting the same relationship or process.
Your way of saying things with a bit more "edge" than me appeals
to people who need that approach. My softer way of saying it helps
with people who don't respond to that hard edged approach.
Both approaches are essentially saying the same thing about how it works.
How we approach or represent Truth and Justice is relative to us, though
the laws in operation are universal and apply to all people in all situations.
I find it fascinating how it can be absolute in content
yet relative in presentation at the same time. Thank you S.J.

 

[TNHarley]

Its not just the Christina religion. Its all Abrahamic religions. God was very much a tyrant.

 

[hobelim]

Proposed: The Christian God is a tyrant determined to force everyone on the planet to convert to Christianity, and worship as a Christian, and the illusion of "Free Will" is a pretence that he created to convince you that observance was your own idea.

Otherwise, why fill the Bible with references of the eternal torture, and suffering that would befall non-believers after judgement, when one dies. Now, the first question that is going to be asked is going to be an attempt at a distraction: "Why should I care what the Bible says, since I'm an Atheist?" However, it doesn't matter what my theological position is, does it? "The truth is the truth," right? So, if the Bible is the Truth, then the things that are in the Bible are "the Truth" whether I believe them, or not. Which, brings us right back around to my question. If God is not a tyrant, and does not demand worship from everyone, then why threaten anyone who does not believe? If God does not care one way, or the other, if someone chooses to believe, or not, why bother with all of the threats?

I think that you have made some great errors in your speculations and have confused what God might or might not want you to do with what people who can't tell the difference between a children's fairy tale and a historical document have said about what God might or might not want you do do.

 

[Eloy]

The Bible is a large collection of books in which can be found something to suit everyone's taste.