God teaches love thy enemies while condemning his enemies to fire and death!

[thebrucebeat]

he then sends you to the worst place you can imagine.

couldn't be the worst place you can imagine if you're going there willingly.....

This is the reason grace is a farce.

 

[PostmodernProph]

he then sends you to the worst place you can imagine.

couldn't be the worst place you can imagine if you're going there willingly.....

This is the reason grace is a farce.

you'll have to be a bit more specific.....the only farce I'm seeing is your argument......

 

[hangover]

the only people "condemned to fire" are the one's who've chosen to believe he doesn't exist...

now if I offer people a free trip to Disneyworld and they turn their backs on it, does that mean I hate them?.....

If you then send them to Baghdad on the first day of "shock and awe" for refusing the trip it kind of shows you're a dick.

so, you're one of those who thinks bombing government buildings at 2 am was intended to kill lots of innocent civilians?......

Yeah, and cons try to pretend it didn't. A million women, children and elderly were killed in Iraq, all because Shrub fooled the world into believing Saddam had yellow cake. And it was Raygun that gave chemical weapons to Saddam during the Iran/Iraq war.

 

[hangover]

GOD is not sending anyone to hell. it is although most often in ignorance that they are choosing to go. most people are very lazy in there seeking of GOD and truth. that is not GODS fault. because they choose to be lazy and simply believe things that are not true which simply means comparing what they are being taught to what GODS word says. most people have this idea that GOD is absolutely sovereign. believing that he can do what ever he wants to do and that would be true if he had not limited his sovereignty to what his word says. hence, heaven and earth shall pass away but my word shall never pass away. GOD word holds all of creation together. many people sit in pews with no idea who GOD is and the person behind the pulpit has no clue either.

It says in the bible, that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. But it was evil that destroyed them. "You reap what you sow" Karma.

 

[emilynghiem]

Why is the idea of eternal damnation so repulsive to many people?

Link for more in depth reading:
Why is the idea of eternal damnation so repulsive to many people?

A flawed view of God’s love. Many who reject the idea of eternal damnation do so because they find it difficult to believe that a loving God could banish people to a place as horrific as hell for all eternity. However, God’s love does not negate His justice, His righteousness, or His holiness. Neither does His justice negate His love. In fact, God’s love has provided the way to escape His wrath: the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross (John 3:16-18).

What is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

Link for more in depth reading:
What is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

A. RE: Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit

1. The Holy Spirit is the Comfort and Healing that comes with Forgiveness.
Through Forgiveness, then God's Will and Grace can enter in and make all things right and whole. This is what it means to be reconciled in Christ Jesus or by Restorative Justice.

2. the opposite is Unforgiveness
Refusing to forgive or ask HELP to forgive (because of course we cannot always forgive where we are limited by human emotions fears and biases and not perfect like God's love)
PREVENTS even God's will, love and healing grace from entering in.

Thus we cut ourselves off from heaven by unforgiveness.

This is a choice that God gave us free will to make on our own.
He cannot supplant or FORCE us to choose forgiveness, this is designed to be our choice.

This way we are not herded by blind faith, but CHOOSE forgiveness.
True faith must be by CHOICE or it is not real, it is forced and faked.

3. re: damnation to hell and suffering

YES if we REFUSE TO FORGIVE, we trap ourselves in ill will, retribution, and bad karma,
in a vicious cycle of abuse, suffering, addiction and sin where the negative energy
escalates, begets more retribution hatred and division, cause suffering strife and war.

There is no out to this suffering
except FORGIVENESS.

Where we cannot forgive because our limited human free will cannot do it,
that is why we rely on "divine help" to forgive or ask help to let go where we cannot do it.

They say to forgive is DIVINE.
So this is what it means to call on God, on higher Grace to do what we cannot do alone.
This is what the sacrifice of Christ represents, is this ability and process in the conscience
to BREAK FREE from the addiction and abuse of the past, the vicious cycle of sin and karma.

There is a way out, and it is by Divine Grace, by higher forgiveness
that allows love and compassion in to heal even the worst injustices we cannot imagine forgiving. Only God can forgive those things, so we call on that higher power for help.

In this way, we break free from the bonds and traps of hellish suffering from unforgiven conflicts and injustice of the past that otherwise would project and repeat without end.

Thus eternal suffering in hell is vanquished when we choose the path of forgiveness,
and trust the laws of God and Justice, which Jesus represents, to correct the wrongs.

We must first agree to forgive and let go before God's truth and justice can be established.
This is the path of Restorative Justice fulfilled in Christ Jesus, and the meaning of the Bible.

 

[emilynghiem]

he then sends you to the worst place you can imagine.

couldn't be the worst place you can imagine if you're going there willingly.....

I imagine all the people who choose to get high off drugs
in a way "go there willingly"
and suffer the worst effects from it. Once they get addicted, they can't always
help themselves; but there was a point before they got addicted where they
made the "choice" not to forgive something in the past, and instead to escape or rebel
or choose the path of self-medication or self-destruction using addictive drugs.

People may get temporary pleasure from rebellion and retribution against others,
but the price we pay for it, in the longrun, costs us so much more.
Not only do we still have to fix the original problems, but now there is addiction
damages, debt and "interest" added to fix on top of that, injury to ourselves and others.

In a way "we go there willingly"
even though we suffer hell when we 'choose to go to war'

Just because we "choose" a path doesn't mean it isn't hellish suffering we really do not want by the time the bill comes due for those choices.

 

[emilynghiem]

If grace is the undeserved favor of god, what good is hell?
It makes god's love a quid pro quo, not grace.
There are conditions, and that is not grace.

Dear Bruce this is a good honest question.

There is both good and bad in the world, peace and suffering, (or heaven and hell) because as humans we are designed to operate by free will and reason; so we learn by trial and error, by experience, by recording and comparing the past so we can understand the laws of karma or justice, cause and effect, and what works and doesn't work to bring peace and justice. The good things in life are given freely, like life and love itself that are naturally existent; the bad things happen when there is some problem we need to solve, and these symptoms let us know so we can figure it out, using our free will and reason.

This is like asking if good health is free and natural as the default, what is the purpose of disease? Why should anyone have to suffer, especially innocent children?

Disease happens when there is an imbalance, an unnatural disruption to health and healing.

Studies show that over 80% of human illness is related to unforgiveness and the stress this causes. Unforgiven conflict and negative emotions/energy BLOCK the natural process of the mind and body "healing themselves" as designed by Nature or God.

So disease tells us that something is off balance, blocking our natural healing, and we need to remove the cause of blockage to healing in order to restore our natural state of health.

Even with children born with diseases, the causes of affliction can often be traced to past generations and problems that were carried down from before. So there is still a cause.
This is not to "punish" innocent people, but to motivate us to understand the causes and to work to resolve them so that we can avoid unnecessary suffering from disease and death.

Likewise grace and heavenly peace, harmony with others and with the world, are the natural state we are designed to achieve. If we do not have this, there is a REASON.

So where we have physical, mental or social ills, this "disease" this "suffering" and lack of peace and health tells us "something is wrong." We have unforgiven or unresolved conflicts to address, in order to restore the natural harmony, justice and peace we are meant to live in -- which is given freely by God's grace, we have merely to receive it and be restored.

The work to achieve justice is not free, but is proportional based on the wrongs committed that need restitution; but the burden is made lighter where we agree to work together on mutual forgiveness and correction instead of costing ourselves more by fighting and blame.

Again none of these bad consequences are to "punish" anyone, but they are the "natural consequences" of either conflicts or imbalances from the past that are seeking resolution.
As we learn and understand the workings of the spiritual and physical realms, we can better take steps to prevent these issues from recurring, and restore natural harmony, between all people and the world, which is heavenly peace on earth, free for the asking.

 

[thebrucebeat]

If grace is the undeserved favor of god, what good is hell?
It makes god's love a quid pro quo, not grace.
There are conditions, and that is not grace.

Dear Bruce this is a good honest question.

There is both good and bad in the world, peace and suffering, (or heaven and hell) because as humans we are designed to operate by free will and reason; so we learn by trial and error, by experience, by recording and comparing the past so we can understand the laws of karma or justice, cause and effect, and what works and doesn't work to bring peace and justice. The good things in life are given freely, like life and love itself that are naturally existent; the bad things happen when there is some problem we need to solve, and these symptoms let us know so we can figure it out, using our free will and reason.

This is like asking if good health is free and natural as the default, what is the purpose of disease? Why should anyone have to suffer, especially innocent children?

Disease happens when there is an imbalance, an unnatural disruption to health and healing.

Studies show that over 80% of human illness is related to unforgiveness and the stress this causes. Unforgiven conflict and negative emotions/energy BLOCK the natural process of the mind and body "healing themselves" as designed by Nature or God.

So disease tells us that something is off balance, blocking our natural healing, and we need to remove the cause of blockage to healing in order to restore our natural state of health.

Even with children born with diseases, the causes of affliction can often be traced to past generations and problems that were carried down from before. So there is still a cause.
This is not to "punish" innocent people, but to motivate us to understand the causes and to work to resolve them so that we can avoid unnecessary suffering from disease and death.

Likewise grace and heavenly peace, harmony with others and with the world, are the natural state we are designed to achieve. If we do not have this, there is a REASON.

So where we have physical, mental or social ills, this "disease" this "suffering" and lack of peace and health tells us "something is wrong." We have unforgiven or unresolved conflicts to address, in order to restore the natural harmony, justice and peace we are meant to live in -- which is given freely by God's grace, we have merely to receive it and be restored.

The work to achieve justice is not free, but is proportional based on the wrongs committed that need restitution; but the burden is made lighter where we agree to work together on mutual forgiveness and correction instead of costing ourselves more by fighting and blame.

Again none of these bad consequences are to "punish" anyone, but they are the "natural consequences" of either conflicts or imbalances from the past that are seeking resolution.
As we learn and understand the workings of the spiritual and physical realms, we can better take steps to prevent these issues from recurring, and restore natural harmony, between all people and the world, which is heavenly peace on earth, free for the asking.

Your "good honest question" is nothing of the kind. It is the type of question asked in a push poll.
There is so much silly in your post I honestly don't know where to start. So many assumptions that you state as facts, references to studies you don't cite and on and on.
So you think heaven is going to be here?
I see no evidence for that.

 

[emilynghiem]

And if Tina would have just done what Ike wanted, he wouldn't have had to beat her ass.

And if humanity would have just done what God wanted, He wouldn't have had to beat our asses.

No, even if you do what an abuser wants, they still find an excuse to abuse you.

That is conditional on wanting control, it is not about resolving issues, which the abuser is not concerned about, but trying to avoid by projecting control issues onto someone else.

I think you see the issue of God as a control issue with religious authority.
So of course you see it as abusive.

So take the religious authority out of the equation.

Get away from that abusive image or relationship.

Otherwise we are not comparing the same thing.

To be fair, we would have to compare the difference between a
HEALTHY authority relationship, such as a responsible loving parent
or a responsible Government, whose role is as a PROTECTORATE.

versus an abusive parent or government.

If you only compare God with an abusive parent or church/state authority,
then we are not talking about the same things.

Normally, Christians use SATAN or ANTICHRIST to mean the fear-based negative
abuse of authority based on FEAR and RETRIBUTION. This is FALSE government.

And use GOD or CHRIST to mean the loving responsible type,
based on LOVE of TRUTH and JUSTICE.

Can we agree to get our terms straight? Thanks!

 

[emilynghiem]

Your "good honest question" is nothing of the kind. It is the type of question asked in a push poll.
There is so much silly in your post I honestly don't know where to start. So many assumptions that you state as facts, references to studies you don't cite and on and on.
So you think heaven is going to be here?
I see no evidence for that.

Hi Bruce:
Just the fact that you answered civilly and logically shows we are capable of peace.
So you take that approach to differences or conflicts,
and multiply by all of humanity addressing differences this way, civilly and diplomatically,
and you have world peace.

you are even proof of this, because you answer completely rationally and politely,
and did not say anything ugly towards me even though you disagreed fully with my post.

if we can act this way, any person or group can reach the level of interacting this way.
that is all it takes to achieve world peace, approaching conflicts with
tolerance and seeking correction without blame or fighting.

it is not impossible, rather it is preferable, because people naturally prefer peace and security over pain and suffering.
we just need to work in ways where any changes are mutual by consent, and not to be feared as negative or coercive,
and we don't cause disruption where this is completely unnecessary and nobody really wants that anyway!

most people I know would much rather choose this path of civility in all relations.
that is all it takes, is to cultivate that standard of relations between all people.
collectively that's all society and all humanity.

 

[PostmodernProph]

A million women, children and elderly were killed in Iraq

probably off topic, but it certainly demonstrates you lack math skills....have you ever counted the months between the start of the war in 2003 and the date in 2006 when brainless liberals started claiming that number then calculated to see how many people would have had to have died each month?....do that some day then go somewhere like iraqbodycount and see how far short of that claim reality falls....

 

[amrchaos]

"if you accept..."
Conditions.
If there are conditions, then it isn't grace, because it becomes a quid pro quo. Do this for me and I'll do this for you.

For someone proclaiming to have been a pastor, you sure missed out on a lot. You're not doing it for Him, you're doing it for yourself. What exactly would you be doing for God? God doesn't need you. In all your time at seminary or Bible college and serving in the church, that realization never came to you?

I agree Newby.. Just using Abraham's concept of God You can quickly derive that.

The problem is, why does god spend any effort to get us to acknowledge him? To love him? To worship him?

Why does God want us to love him?

If God does not need us in any way, why does God care about us or what happens to us after we die?

Is this part of the quirky nature of God? Or am I missing something?

 

[thebrucebeat]

Your "good honest question" is nothing of the kind. It is the type of question asked in a push poll.
There is so much silly in your post I honestly don't know where to start. So many assumptions that you state as facts, references to studies you don't cite and on and on.
So you think heaven is going to be here?
I see no evidence for that.

Hi Bruce:
Just the fact that you answered civilly and logically shows we are capable of peace.
So you take that approach to differences or conflicts,
and multiply by all of humanity addressing differences this way, civilly and diplomatically,
and you have world peace.

you are even proof of this, because you answer completely rationally and politely,
and did not say anything ugly towards me even though you disagreed fully with my post.

if we can act this way, any person or group can reach the level of interacting this way.
that is all it takes to achieve world peace, approaching conflicts with
tolerance and seeking correction without blame or fighting.

it is not impossible, rather it is preferable, because people naturally prefer peace and security over pain and suffering.
we just need to work in ways where any changes are mutual by consent, and not to be feared as negative or coercive,
and we don't cause disruption where this is completely unnecessary and nobody really wants that anyway!

most people I know would much rather choose this path of civility in all relations.
that is all it takes, is to cultivate that standard of relations between all people.
collectively that's all society and all humanity.

But the history of mankind is his drawing lines of all kinds and daring others to cross them.
Whether the lines are physical borders, doctrinal mandates, philosophical absolutes. The idea that people will work together in harmony without assuming poor motives.
It won't happen.
People DO have poor motives, or absolute stances, lines they won't cross and will not allow others to.
I have to disagree with you on what "most people" prefer, that they choose civility. Perhaps in personal one on one communication.
Perhaps.
When it becomes less personal, it becomes less civil, and the great questions and conflicts are not solved by a couple of dudes over coffee.

 

[Newby]

For someone proclaiming to have been a pastor, you sure missed out on a lot. You're not doing it for Him, you're doing it for yourself. What exactly would you be doing for God? God doesn't need you. In all your time at seminary or Bible college and serving in the church, that realization never came to you?

Actually, this argument came up in seminary.
It was never satisfactorily addressed.
So your argument is your faith isn't a service to god, it is all about yourself?
You may have written your first honest post.

Doing it for yourself, to make yourself a better person is the opposite of 'all about yourself', but it doesn't surprise me that you don't understand that concept. It's why you're no longer a pastor, if you ever were.

 

[Newby]

For someone proclaiming to have been a pastor, you sure missed out on a lot. You're not doing it for Him, you're doing it for yourself. What exactly would you be doing for God? God doesn't need you. In all your time at seminary or Bible college and serving in the church, that realization never came to you?

I agree Newby.. Just using Abraham's concept of God You can quickly derive that.

The problem is, why does god spend any effort to get us to acknowledge him? To love him? To worship him?

Why does God want us to love him?

If God does not need us in any way, why does God care about us or what happens to us after we die?

Is this part of the quirky nature of God? Or am I missing something?

Good question... perhaps it's not something we can understand. Or perhaps it's as simple as the relationship you have with your own children, you don't necessarily need them, but you desire their love, respect, and companionship. You want them to follow the rules you give them for their own good, not yours. If they don't follow or listen and go down a path that will hurt them, you are helpless to save them from the consequences of their choices. That's how I see it.

 

[thebrucebeat]

For someone proclaiming to have been a pastor, you sure missed out on a lot. You're not doing it for Him, you're doing it for yourself. What exactly would you be doing for God? God doesn't need you. In all your time at seminary or Bible college and serving in the church, that realization never came to you?

Actually, this argument came up in seminary.
It was never satisfactorily addressed.
So your argument is your faith isn't a service to god, it is all about yourself?
You may have written your first honest post.

Doing it for yourself, to make yourself a better person is the opposite of 'all about yourself', but it doesn't surprise me that you don't understand that concept. It's why you're no longer a pastor, if you ever were.

Rewording your post make you feel like you didn't blow it again?
Good.

 

[Newby]

Actually, this argument came up in seminary.
It was never satisfactorily addressed.
So your argument is your faith isn't a service to god, it is all about yourself?
You may have written your first honest post.

Doing it for yourself, to make yourself a better person is the opposite of 'all about yourself', but it doesn't surprise me that you don't understand that concept. It's why you're no longer a pastor, if you ever were.

Rewording your post make you feel like you didn't blow it again?
Good.

You reworded my post, sorry that didn't work out for you like you had hoped. Another strawman blown to bits!

 

[thebrucebeat]

Doing it for yourself, to make yourself a better person is the opposite of 'all about yourself', but it doesn't surprise me that you don't understand that concept. It's why you're no longer a pastor, if you ever were.

Rewording your post make you feel like you didn't blow it again?
Good.

You reworded my post, sorry that didn't work out for you like you had hoped. Another strawman blown to bits!

You are too easy.
You leave such huge holes to drive buses through.

 

[hangover]

A million women, children and elderly were killed in Iraq

probably off topic, but it certainly demonstrates you lack math skills....have you ever counted the months between the start of the war in 2003 and the date in 2006 when brainless liberals started claiming that number then calculated to see how many people would have had to have died each month?....do that some day then go somewhere like iraqbodycount and see how far short of that claim reality falls....

On March 19, 2003, a U.S.-led coalition invaded Iraq, beginning a ground war that culminated in the rapid capture of Baghdad and overthrow of the regime led by Saddam Hussein. A coalition-led occupation of Iraq lasted until 2011, marked by repeated bombings, an al Qaeda-linked insurgency, militia warfare, and other bloodshed in the nation of 32.6 million people.

In the new PLOS Medicine journal survey, led by public health expert Amy Hagopian of the University of Washington in Seattle, an international research team polled heads of households and siblings across Iraq. The researchers, including some from the Iraqi Ministry of Health, aimed to update and improve past estimates of the human costs of the war and occupation.

"We think it is roughly around half a million people dead. And that is likely a low estimate," says Hagopian. "People need to know the cost in human lives of the decision to go to war."

Half-Million Iraqis Died in the War, New Study Says

And that's only since 2011. The killing goes on. Civilians die everyday from car bombings ans such, because of the civil war created by the U.S. invasion.

So if it's only a half million, that must make you feel justified? You're one sick puppy.

 

[PostmodernProph]

A million women, children and elderly were killed in Iraq

probably off topic, but it certainly demonstrates you lack math skills....have you ever counted the months between the start of the war in 2003 and the date in 2006 when brainless liberals started claiming that number then calculated to see how many people would have had to have died each month?....do that some day then go somewhere like iraqbodycount and see how far short of that claim reality falls....

On March 19, 2003, a U.S.-led coalition invaded Iraq, beginning a ground war that culminated in the rapid capture of Baghdad and overthrow of the regime led by Saddam Hussein. A coalition-led occupation of Iraq lasted until 2011, marked by repeated bombings, an al Qaeda-linked insurgency, militia warfare, and other bloodshed in the nation of 32.6 million people.

In the new PLOS Medicine journal survey, led by public health expert Amy Hagopian of the University of Washington in Seattle, an international research team polled heads of households and siblings across Iraq. The researchers, including some from the Iraqi Ministry of Health, aimed to update and improve past estimates of the human costs of the war and occupation.

"We think it is roughly around half a million people dead. And that is likely a low estimate," says Hagopian. "People need to know the cost in human lives of the decision to go to war."

Half-Million Iraqis Died in the War, New Study Says

And that's only since 2011. The killing goes on. Civilians die everyday from car bombings ans such, because of the civil war created by the U.S. invasion.

So if it's only a half million, that must make you feel justified? You're one sick puppy.

nothing to do with "justified", just a question of rationality.....in 2006 liberals claimed a million dead in Iraq (though I see you've cut that in half just since your last post, thanks for that concession at least)......if I recall correctly that was after 38 months of war......

one million divided by 38 is 26,316 deaths per month.....statistics from sources like iraqbodycount and AlJazeera news network reported that the worst month of the war caused under 2400 civilian casualties......more typically, when the war was ongoing numbers were under a thousand, many times under 100.....

if there were actually 26k dying, why did no one notice the bodies?......

the actual numbers were closer to 50,000, over 90% of which were caused by terrorist bombing.....if iraqbodycount is correct.....