Gunny's Thread on Religion

[Kalam]

Ibn Hamid told me that Salama said M. b. Ishaq told him from Yazid b. Ziyad of ‎Medina from M. b. Ka'b al-Qurazi

Sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me. This is supposed to prove that Ibn Ishaq actually said something?

 

[Kalam]

The uttering of the satanic verse are the reason Mohammad had to leave mekka.

A false assertion that you have utterly and repeatedly failed to prove.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 339:
Narrated Urwa bin Az-Zubair:

I asked 'Abdullah bin 'Amr bin Al-'As to inform me of the worst thing the pagans had done to Allah's Apostle. He said: "While Allah's Apostle was praying in the courtyard of the ka'ba, 'Uqba bin Abi Mu'ait came and seized Allah's Apostle by the shoulder and twisted his garment round his neck and throttled him severely. Abu Bakr came and seized 'Uqba's shoulder and threw him away from Allah's Apostle and said, "Would you kill a man because he says: 'My Lord is Allah,' and has come to you with clear Signs from your Lord?" (40.28)

SAHIH BUKHARI, BOOK 60: Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh))

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Terrible persecution indeed.

 

[SW2SILVER]

In the vernacular of the popular culture: You guys like jacking each other off? Thank Allah for the ignore option. Wouldn't want to make you face up to the fact that religion is a mass delusion. And mindless irrational pablum. But other than that, it's well worth wasting your life and murdering non Muslim's. So, ignore away, dickwads, ignore away.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Ibn Hamid told me that Salama said M. b. Ishaq told him from Yazid b. Ziyad of ‎Medina from M. b. Ka'b al-Qurazi

Sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me. This is supposed to prove that Ibn Ishaq actually said something?

The Life of Muhammad: Translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah


Professor Guillaume's translation of the Sira of Ibn Iss-Haq is now reissued. The translator used Ibn Hisham's abridgement and also included many additions and variants found in the writings of early authors. The book thus presents in English practically all that is known of the life of the Prophet. In the introduction, the translator discusses the character of the Sira in the light of the opinion of early Arabian scholars, noting especially the difficulties of the poetry. As the earliest monument of Arabian prose literature, the Sira remains a work of the first importance.

 

[Kalam]

Ibn Hamid told me that Salama said M. b. Ishaq told him from Yazid b. Ziyad of ‎Medina from M. b. Ka'b al-Qurazi

Sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me. This is supposed to prove that Ibn Ishaq actually said something?

The Life of Muhammad: Translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah


Professor Guillaume's translation of the Sira of Ibn Iss-Haq is now reissued. The translator used Ibn Hisham's abridgement and also included many additions and variants found in the writings of early authors. The book thus presents in English practically all that is known of the life of the Prophet. In the introduction, the translator discusses the character of the Sira in the light of the opinion of early Arabian scholars, noting especially the difficulties of the poetry. As the earliest monument of Arabian prose literature, the Sira remains a work of the first importance.

Ibn Hisham's abridgement is not the Sirat Rasul Allah. Ibn Ishaq's work is not known to exist in its original form, and mere hearsay cannot be used to positively attribute any words or actions to Ibn Ishaq, Muhammad, or anyone else.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

The uttering of the satanic verse are the reason Mohammad had to leave mekka.

A false assertion that you have utterly and repeatedly failed to prove.

When his uncle withdrew his umbrella of protection Mohammad departed mekka shortly after he recanted his utterances .
pages 153 -165

The life of Mahomet and history of ... - Google Books

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me. This is supposed to prove that Ibn Ishaq actually said something?

The Life of Muhammad: Translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah


Professor Guillaume's translation of the Sira of Ibn Iss-Haq is now reissued. The translator used Ibn Hisham's abridgement and also included many additions and variants found in the writings of early authors. The book thus presents in English practically all that is known of the life of the Prophet. In the introduction, the translator discusses the character of the Sira in the light of the opinion of early Arabian scholars, noting especially the difficulties of the poetry. As the earliest monument of Arabian prose literature, the Sira remains a work of the first importance.

Ibn Hisham's abridgement is not the Sirat Rasul Allah. Ibn Ishaq's work is not known to exist in its original form, and mere hearsay cannot be used to positively attribute any words or actions to Ibn Ishaq, Muhammad, or anyone else.

the Sira remains a work of the first importance

 

[Kalam]

The uttering of the satanic verse are the reason Mohammad had to leave mekka.

A false assertion that you have utterly and repeatedly failed to prove.

When his uncle withdrew his umbrella of protection Mohammad departed mekka shortly after he recanted his utterances .
pages 153 -165

Muir was an Orientalist. His intentions may have been good, and his work has its uses, but it can by no means used as authoritative proof that Muhammad did or said anything. Inaccuracies in his works have been highlighted and corrected by later scholars such as the Maulana M. Ali.

 

[Kalam]

The Life of Muhammad: Translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah


Professor Guillaume's translation of the Sira of Ibn Iss-Haq is now reissued. The translator used Ibn Hisham's abridgement and also included many additions and variants found in the writings of early authors. The book thus presents in English practically all that is known of the life of the Prophet. In the introduction, the translator discusses the character of the Sira in the light of the opinion of early Arabian scholars, noting especially the difficulties of the poetry. As the earliest monument of Arabian prose literature, the Sira remains a work of the first importance.

Ibn Hisham's abridgement is not the Sirat Rasul Allah. Ibn Ishaq's work is not known to exist in its original form, and mere hearsay cannot be used to positively attribute any words or actions to Ibn Ishaq, Muhammad, or anyone else.

the Sira remains a work of the first importance

Perhaps in the opinion of Guillaume's publisher.

Ibn Ishaq's work is no longer in existence, and could not be used to demonstrate anything beyond all doubt even if that was not the case. The final authority on Islam rests with the Qur'an and the Qur'an alone.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Muir was an Orientalist. His intentions may have been good, and his work has its uses, but it can by no means used as authoritative proof that Muhammad did or said anything. Inaccuracies in his works have been highlighted and corrected by later scholars such as the Maulana M. Ali.

By copy editing out the parts they dont like , like you do with the haddith.
Muir attributes his story in the foot notes Ishaq, Tabari.
Without Al Sira Tabari Buhkari nothing can be known of Mohammad or Islam.
The isnad for them is stronger than the Quran itself.

 

[Kalam]

By copy editing out the parts they dont like , like you do with the haddith.

I don't believe it's a coincidence that the "parts they don't like" happen to be known inaccuracies and misconceptions. Similarly, ahadith I reject are those that are out of harmony with the message of the Qur'an.

Muir attributes his story in the foot notes Ishaq, Tabari.
Without Al Sira Tabari Buhkari nothing can be known of Mohammad or Islam.

All of the essentials of Islam are contained in the Qur'an. All other works are peripheral and of secondary importance.

The isnad for them is stronger than the Quran itself.

The Qur'an has no isnad. It was narrated by Muhammad and recorded directly.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Ibn Ishaq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ibn Isḥaq wrote several works, none of which survive. His collection of traditions about the life of Muhammad survives mainly in two sources:
an edited copy, or recension, of his work by his student al-Bakka'i, as further edited by Ibn Hisham. Al-Bakka'i's work has perished and only Ibn Hisham's has survived, in copies. (Donner 1998, p. 132)
an edited copy, or recension, prepared by his student Salamah ibn Fadl al-Ansari. This also has perished, and survives only in the copious extracts to be found in the volumimous historian al-Tabari's. (Donner 1998, p. 132)
fragments of several other recensions. Guillaume lists them on p. xxx of his preface, but regards most of them as so fragmentary as to be of little worth.
According to Donner, the material in Ibn Hisham and al-Tabari is "virtually the same". (Donner 1998, p. 132) However, there is some material to be found in al-Tabari that was not preserved by Ibn Hisham. The notorious tradition of the Satanic Verses, in which Muhammad is said to have added his own words to the text of the Qur'an as dictated by a jinn is found only in al-Tabari but Tabari was a collector of all reports regardless of its validity.
The English-language edition of Ibn Ishaq currently used by non-Arabic speakers is the 1955 version by Alfred Guillaume. Guillaume combined Ibn Hisham and those materials in al-Tabari cited as Ibn Isḥaq's whenever they differed or added to Ibn Hisham, believing that in so doing he was restoring a lost work. The extracts from al-Tabari are clearly marked, although sometimes it is difficult to distinguish them from the main text (only a capital "T" is used).

Things that you call out of harmony with the Quran are do entirely with your own personal failure to understand the Quran.
For those interested in the details of the satanic verse and the hijra
Prophet of Doom - Islam in Muhammad’s Own Words - 10 - Muddled Message
Prophet of Doom - Islam in Muhammad’s Own Words - 11 - Satan’s Bargain

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

The Qur'an has no isnad. It was narrated by Muhammad and recorded directly.

How and Why the Qur'an was Standardized.
Yeah ,thats why uthman wrote the Quran

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

[http://www.usmessageboard.com/1388843-post692.html.

That is just hystirical your sources for the scripture are incomplete excepts from Sir William Muir ,compiled and weaved into a story?
Here is the complete Muir comments concerning the satanic verses.
It says something vastly different then MM Ali's paraphrasing.

The life of Mahomet and history of ... - Google Books[/QUOTE]

I think it bears repeating that "kalam's" proof consists mainly of a commentary whose main thrust that has been lifted in part, leaving out the entire main part of Muir's argument and the scriptural evidence.
Paraphrasing some moot question about Mohammad and Islam as if that were Muir's position,
Simply shameful and should bring into question the intellectual and academic power and honesty of muslims in general and of the mutz cult in particular.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1388843-post692.html
Handcrafting history for political purposes

BUSTED

 

[Buster Beez]

Kalam vs Fitnah. That's like a mule and an ass arguing over whose shit stinks the most.

 

[Yukon]

YUKON's FACTOID

The Muslim Koran is a book of pure unadulterated HATRED. A book that is in the same class as Mein Kampf. Hatred, pure and simple.

 

[JenT]

The Life of Muhammad: Translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah


Professor Guillaume's translation of the Sira of Ibn Iss-Haq is now reissued. The translator used Ibn Hisham's abridgement and also included many additions and variants found in the writings of early authors. The book thus presents in English practically all that is known of the life of the Prophet. In the introduction, the translator discusses the character of the Sira in the light of the opinion of early Arabian scholars, noting especially the difficulties of the poetry. As the earliest monument of Arabian prose literature, the Sira remains a work of the first importance.

Ibn Hisham's abridgement is not the Sirat Rasul Allah. Ibn Ishaq's work is not known to exist in its original form, and mere hearsay cannot be used to positively attribute any words or actions to Ibn Ishaq, Muhammad, or anyone else.

the Sira remains a work of the first importance

That's exactly what research from Mary Habeck of Yale University has documented. What are your credentials again, Kalam?

Not that credentials matter to me, anyone can research, but some seem to think it makes a difference.

 

[JenT]

Ibn Hisham's abridgement is not the Sirat Rasul Allah. Ibn Ishaq's work is not known to exist in its original form, and mere hearsay cannot be used to positively attribute any words or actions to Ibn Ishaq, Muhammad, or anyone else.

the Sira remains a work of the first importance

Perhaps in the opinion of Guillaume's publisher.

Ibn Ishaq's work is no longer in existence, and could not be used to demonstrate anything beyond all doubt even if that was not the case. The final authority on Islam rests with the Qur'an and the Qur'an alone.

Really? I thought I had a copy on my desk at home. I'll have to recheck.