Happy B-Day Karl Marx, We Could have done without the Genocides however

[Tehon]

Aaand the left who of course deny they are marxists do not agree with the OP and they defend marxism. Of course they have their old go to....BUT BUT BUT AMERICA!!!!!

Meanwhile their utopia, better known as the USSR could not last 100 years with their fucked up devilish philosophy, and for some strange unknown reason poor people from all over the socialist world are DESPERATELY trying to get here.

The left wing are such pathetic losers. Especially, the left wing RICH hypocritical white socialists. Dumb fucking scumbags.

Marxist philosophy was a failure because he could not see capitalist societies adjusting and becoming mixed economies with elements of socialism within them. Such as Social Security in United States. Neo-Left are just straight communists. This includes Bernie Sanders, college professoriate, and Congressional Black Caucus.

In declaring Marxist thought a failure you signal your belief that the history of human socioeconomic relations has come to an end. It hasn't.

You also prove yourself largely ignorant of what Marx did say and discredit yourself thus making it known that you have nothing of value to add to a discussion about Marxism. He saw the future capitalist societies plainly and warned against them.

With a view to checking the power and the growth of big capital the
democratic party demand a reform of the laws of inheritance and legacies,
likewise the transfer of the public services and as many industrial under-
takings as possible to the State and municipal authorities. As to the
working man — well, they should remain wage workers: for whom, how-
ever, the democratic party would procure higher wages, better labor
conditions, and a secure existence. The democrats hope to achieve that
partly through State and municipal management and through welfare
institutions. In short, they hope to bribe the working class into quiescence,
and thus to weaken their revolutionary spirit by momentary concessions
and comforts.
Full text of "Two speeches by Karl Marx : address to the Communist League, 1850 and The inaugural address of the International Workingmen's Association, delivered to the public meeting in St. Martin's Hall, Long Acre, London, on the 28th September, 1864, at which the Association was founded"

 

[Moonglow]

Karl Marx never killed anyone.

Yet Marxism killed millions and enslaved billions.

No, it didn't, humans did that just like they have done it throughout human history.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Yes, George, without Capitalism these millions would have starved the old fashion way, but it is due to the efficiency of capitalist markets that instead of starving to death as they would have in pre-modern times, the Third Worlds population is exploding.

That outside forces obstruct the efficiency of capitalism is not the fault of capitalism that many still starve.

Now go ahead and put another laughing icon on this post too sense you obviously do not grasp the concepts I am sharing with you, lame ass.

Millions across the Middle East and Africa are starving today because of capitalism; it's alleged efficiency is limited to concentrating more and more wealth into fewer and fewer hands with each passing generation by socializing cost and privatizing profit:

Criticism of capitalism - Wikipedia

"Some opponents criticize capitalism's perceived inefficiency.

"They note a shift from pre-industrial reuse and thriftiness before capitalism to a consumer-based economy that pushes 'ready-made' materials.[31]

"It is argued that a sanitation industry arose under capitalism that deemed trash valueless—a significant break from the past when much 'waste' was used and reused almost indefinitely.[31]

"In the process, critics say, capitalism has created a profit driven system based on selling as many products as possible.[32]

"Critics relate the 'ready-made' trend to a growing garbage problem in which 4.5 pounds of trash are generated per person each day (compared to 2.7 pounds in 1960).[33]"

That is simply some ideologues opinion.

Hundreds of millions have starved in every communist system DELIBERATELY by policies of their governments, while Capitalism has reduced starvation everywhere it has been introduced.

In short you are an ideological moron, lol.

Dust Bowl era was damn close though.

Land speculators and Wall Street found ways to profit from the Dust Bowl, too.

“Creating Wealth” Through Debt: the West’s Finance-Capitalist Road

"Volumes II and III of Marx’s Capital describe how debt grows exponentially, burdening the economy with carrying charges.

"This overhead is subjecting today’s Western finance-capitalist economies to austerity, shrinking living standards and capital investment while increasing their cost of living and doing business.

"That is the main reason why they are losing their export markets and becoming de-industrialized."

Marx saw finance capitalism as "fictitious capital", and he recognized its threat to workers and productive capitalists alike.

...and a loaf of bread is still about $2.50 at Wallmart here in the DC area.

Facts just keep on kicking Marxism right in the ass.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Aaand the left who of course deny they are marxists do not agree with the OP and they defend marxism. Of course they have their old go to....BUT BUT BUT AMERICA!!!!!

Meanwhile their utopia, better known as the USSR could not last 100 years with their fucked up devilish philosophy, and for some strange unknown reason poor people from all over the socialist world are DESPERATELY trying to get here.

The left wing are such pathetic losers. Especially, the left wing RICH hypocritical white socialists. Dumb fucking scumbags.

Marxist philosophy was a failure because he could not see capitalist societies adjusting and becoming mixed economies with elements of socialism within them. Such as Social Security in United States. Neo-Left are just straight communists. This includes Bernie Sanders, college professoriate, and Congressional Black Caucus.

In declaring Marxist thought a failure you signal your belief that the history of human socioeconomic relations has come to an end. It hasn't.

You also prove yourself largely ignorant of what Marx did say and discredit yourself thus making it known that you have nothing of value to add to a discussion about Marxism. He saw the future capitalist societies plainly and warned against them.

With a view to checking the power and the growth of big capital the
democratic party demand a reform of the laws of inheritance and legacies,
likewise the transfer of the public services and as many industrial under-
takings as possible to the State and municipal authorities. As to the
working man — well, they should remain wage workers: for whom, how-
ever, the democratic party would procure higher wages, better labor
conditions, and a secure existence. The democrats hope to achieve that
partly through State and municipal management and through welfare
institutions. In short, they hope to bribe the working class into quiescence,
and thus to weaken their revolutionary spirit by momentary concessions
and comforts.
Full text of "Two speeches by Karl Marx : address to the Communist League, 1850 and The inaugural address of the International Workingmen's Association, delivered to the public meeting in St. Martin's Hall, Long Acre, London, on the 28th September, 1864, at which the Association was founded"

Yeah. Marx was so smart and his ideas so effective every workers paradise since he died has been a dismal failure and shifted over to capitalism instead.

roflmao

 

[Moonglow]

Yes, George, without Capitalism these millions would have starved the old fashion way, but it is due to the efficiency of capitalist markets that instead of starving to death as they would have in pre-modern times, the Third Worlds population is exploding.

That outside forces obstruct the efficiency of capitalism is not the fault of capitalism that many still starve.

Now go ahead and put another laughing icon on this post too sense you obviously do not grasp the concepts I am sharing with you, lame ass.

Millions across the Middle East and Africa are starving today because of capitalism; it's alleged efficiency is limited to concentrating more and more wealth into fewer and fewer hands with each passing generation by socializing cost and privatizing profit:

Criticism of capitalism - Wikipedia

"Some opponents criticize capitalism's perceived inefficiency.

"They note a shift from pre-industrial reuse and thriftiness before capitalism to a consumer-based economy that pushes 'ready-made' materials.[31]

"It is argued that a sanitation industry arose under capitalism that deemed trash valueless—a significant break from the past when much 'waste' was used and reused almost indefinitely.[31]

"In the process, critics say, capitalism has created a profit driven system based on selling as many products as possible.[32]

"Critics relate the 'ready-made' trend to a growing garbage problem in which 4.5 pounds of trash are generated per person each day (compared to 2.7 pounds in 1960).[33]"

That is simply some ideologues opinion.

Hundreds of millions have starved in every communist system DELIBERATELY by policies of their governments, while Capitalism has reduced starvation everywhere it has been introduced.

In short you are an ideological moron, lol.

Dust Bowl era was damn close though.

Land speculators and Wall Street found ways to profit from the Dust Bowl, too.

“Creating Wealth” Through Debt: the West’s Finance-Capitalist Road

"Volumes II and III of Marx’s Capital describe how debt grows exponentially, burdening the economy with carrying charges.

"This overhead is subjecting today’s Western finance-capitalist economies to austerity, shrinking living standards and capital investment while increasing their cost of living and doing business.

"That is the main reason why they are losing their export markets and becoming de-industrialized."

Marx saw finance capitalism as "fictitious capital", and he recognized its threat to workers and productive capitalists alike.

...and a loaf of bread is still about $2.50 at Wallmart here in the DC area.

Facts just keep on kicking Marxism right in the ass.

Was Marx a baker?

 

[Moonglow]

Aaand the left who of course deny they are marxists do not agree with the OP and they defend marxism. Of course they have their old go to....BUT BUT BUT AMERICA!!!!!

Meanwhile their utopia, better known as the USSR could not last 100 years with their fucked up devilish philosophy, and for some strange unknown reason poor people from all over the socialist world are DESPERATELY trying to get here.

The left wing are such pathetic losers. Especially, the left wing RICH hypocritical white socialists. Dumb fucking scumbags.

Marxist philosophy was a failure because he could not see capitalist societies adjusting and becoming mixed economies with elements of socialism within them. Such as Social Security in United States. Neo-Left are just straight communists. This includes Bernie Sanders, college professoriate, and Congressional Black Caucus.

In declaring Marxist thought a failure you signal your belief that the history of human socioeconomic relations has come to an end. It hasn't.

You also prove yourself largely ignorant of what Marx did say and discredit yourself thus making it known that you have nothing of value to add to a discussion about Marxism. He saw the future capitalist societies plainly and warned against them.

With a view to checking the power and the growth of big capital the
democratic party demand a reform of the laws of inheritance and legacies,
likewise the transfer of the public services and as many industrial under-
takings as possible to the State and municipal authorities. As to the
working man — well, they should remain wage workers: for whom, how-
ever, the democratic party would procure higher wages, better labor
conditions, and a secure existence. The democrats hope to achieve that
partly through State and municipal management and through welfare
institutions. In short, they hope to bribe the working class into quiescence,
and thus to weaken their revolutionary spirit by momentary concessions
and comforts.
Full text of "Two speeches by Karl Marx : address to the Communist League, 1850 and The inaugural address of the International Workingmen's Association, delivered to the public meeting in St. Martin's Hall, Long Acre, London, on the 28th September, 1864, at which the Association was founded"

Yeah. Marx was so smart and his ideas so effective every workers paradise since he died has been a dismal failure and shifted over to capitalism instead.

roflmao

I still use the collective when weed pulling in the garden.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Communism is doomed to failure. Equation does not work Der Komissar.

Marxists are like chemists convinced that coloidal silver must have certain properties and they try one variant after another and every time they fail they assert, 'But that experiment was flawed, it will work next time.'

The problem with that is that each of these Marxists experiments cost the lives of millions and destroy the lives and fortunes of countless numbers of people.

 

[Tehon]

Aaand the left who of course deny they are marxists do not agree with the OP and they defend marxism. Of course they have their old go to....BUT BUT BUT AMERICA!!!!!

Meanwhile their utopia, better known as the USSR could not last 100 years with their fucked up devilish philosophy, and for some strange unknown reason poor people from all over the socialist world are DESPERATELY trying to get here.

The left wing are such pathetic losers. Especially, the left wing RICH hypocritical white socialists. Dumb fucking scumbags.

Marxist philosophy was a failure because he could not see capitalist societies adjusting and becoming mixed economies with elements of socialism within them. Such as Social Security in United States. Neo-Left are just straight communists. This includes Bernie Sanders, college professoriate, and Congressional Black Caucus.

In declaring Marxist thought a failure you signal your belief that the history of human socioeconomic relations has come to an end. It hasn't.

You also prove yourself largely ignorant of what Marx did say and discredit yourself thus making it known that you have nothing of value to add to a discussion about Marxism. He saw the future capitalist societies plainly and warned against them.

With a view to checking the power and the growth of big capital the
democratic party demand a reform of the laws of inheritance and legacies,
likewise the transfer of the public services and as many industrial under-
takings as possible to the State and municipal authorities. As to the
working man — well, they should remain wage workers: for whom, how-
ever, the democratic party would procure higher wages, better labor
conditions, and a secure existence. The democrats hope to achieve that
partly through State and municipal management and through welfare
institutions. In short, they hope to bribe the working class into quiescence,
and thus to weaken their revolutionary spirit by momentary concessions
and comforts.
Full text of "Two speeches by Karl Marx : address to the Communist League, 1850 and The inaugural address of the International Workingmen's Association, delivered to the public meeting in St. Martin's Hall, Long Acre, London, on the 28th September, 1864, at which the Association was founded"

Yeah. Marx was so smart and his ideas so effective every workers paradise since he died has been a dismal failure and shifted over to capitalism instead.

roflmao

He presented a historical narrative of socioeconomic relations not a blueprint for a workers paradise.

 

[JimBowie1958]

He presented a historical narrative of socioeconomic relations not a blueprint for a workers paradise.

Lol, Marx was a philosopher who presented a Hegelian derivative world view that has been a catastrophic failure in every respect everywhere it has been tried.

Birthrates collapse, environments get desecrated, people starve to death, governments turn into totalitarian dictatorships that can only stay in power through threat of violence or actual violence as demonstrated in Venezuela and countless other nations.

Your pathetic semantic dodge merely demonstrates the underlying dishonesty of Marxism as well, dumbfuck.

 

[FJO]

Millions across the Middle East and Africa are starving today because of capitalism; it's alleged efficiency is limited to concentrating more and more wealth into fewer and fewer hands with each passing generation by socializing cost and privatizing profit:

Criticism of capitalism - Wikipedia

"Some opponents criticize capitalism's perceived inefficiency.

"They note a shift from pre-industrial reuse and thriftiness before capitalism to a consumer-based economy that pushes 'ready-made' materials.[31]

"It is argued that a sanitation industry arose under capitalism that deemed trash valueless—a significant break from the past when much 'waste' was used and reused almost indefinitely.[31]

"In the process, critics say, capitalism has created a profit driven system based on selling as many products as possible.[32]

"Critics relate the 'ready-made' trend to a growing garbage problem in which 4.5 pounds of trash are generated per person each day (compared to 2.7 pounds in 1960).[33]"

That is simply some ideologues opinion.

Hundreds of millions have starved in every communist system DELIBERATELY by policies of their governments, while Capitalism has reduced starvation everywhere it has been introduced.

In short you are an ideological moron, lol.

Dust Bowl era was damn close though.

Land speculators and Wall Street found ways to profit from the Dust Bowl, too.

“Creating Wealth” Through Debt: the West’s Finance-Capitalist Road

"Volumes II and III of Marx’s Capital describe how debt grows exponentially, burdening the economy with carrying charges.

"This overhead is subjecting today’s Western finance-capitalist economies to austerity, shrinking living standards and capital investment while increasing their cost of living and doing business.

"That is the main reason why they are losing their export markets and becoming de-industrialized."

Marx saw finance capitalism as "fictitious capital", and he recognized its threat to workers and productive capitalists alike.

...and a loaf of bread is still about $2.50 at Wallmart here in the DC area.

Facts just keep on kicking Marxism right in the ass.

Was Marx a baker?

Yes, but not a good one.

All his products are half baked.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Was Marx a baker?

Yes, but not a good one.
All his products are half baked.

Marxs ideas are poison, and he is the most homicidal baker in human history.

 

[Moonglow]

That is simply some ideologues opinion.

Hundreds of millions have starved in every communist system DELIBERATELY by policies of their governments, while Capitalism has reduced starvation everywhere it has been introduced.

In short you are an ideological moron, lol.

Dust Bowl era was damn close though.

Land speculators and Wall Street found ways to profit from the Dust Bowl, too.

“Creating Wealth” Through Debt: the West’s Finance-Capitalist Road

"Volumes II and III of Marx’s Capital describe how debt grows exponentially, burdening the economy with carrying charges.

"This overhead is subjecting today’s Western finance-capitalist economies to austerity, shrinking living standards and capital investment while increasing their cost of living and doing business.

"That is the main reason why they are losing their export markets and becoming de-industrialized."

Marx saw finance capitalism as "fictitious capital", and he recognized its threat to workers and productive capitalists alike.

...and a loaf of bread is still about $2.50 at Wallmart here in the DC area.

Facts just keep on kicking Marxism right in the ass.

Was Marx a baker?

Yes, but not a good one.

All his products are half baked.

One thing that has always struck me as being out of the ordinary....Kids that came from wealthy European families could write such ideology about the struggle of labor and never once have a job doing labor...But instead while writing bum dough from family and friends to exist on...

 

[Tehon]

He presented a historical narrative of socioeconomic relations not a blueprint for a workers paradise.

Lol, Marx was a philosopher who presented a Hegelian derivative world view that has been a catastrophic failure in every respect everywhere it has been tried.

Birthrates collapse, environments get desecrated, people starve to death, governments turn into totalitarian dictatorships that can only stay in power through threat of violence or actual violence as demonstrated in Venezuela and countless other nations.

Your pathetic semantic dodge merely demonstrates the underlying dishonesty of Marxism as well, dumbfuck.

The Hegelian derivative says that human social interaction is directly related to the requirement of acquiring the material needs for our survival. It also suggests that the change in socioeconomic interactions is only altered after the usefulness of the previous relations has reached its full potential and begins to be an impediment to future human socioeconomic development.

None of the examples you like to promote as failures of Marxism demonstrate this relationship. They all attempt to skip ahead and create something artificially.

 

[Bush92]

Aaand the left who of course deny they are marxists do not agree with the OP and they defend marxism. Of course they have their old go to....BUT BUT BUT AMERICA!!!!!

Meanwhile their utopia, better known as the USSR could not last 100 years with their fucked up devilish philosophy, and for some strange unknown reason poor people from all over the socialist world are DESPERATELY trying to get here.

The left wing are such pathetic losers. Especially, the left wing RICH hypocritical white socialists. Dumb fucking scumbags.

Marxist philosophy was a failure because he could not see capitalist societies adjusting and becoming mixed economies with elements of socialism within them. Such as Social Security in United States. Neo-Left are just straight communists. This includes Bernie Sanders, college professoriate, and Congressional Black Caucus.

In declaring Marxist thought a failure you signal your belief that the history of human socioeconomic relations has come to an end. It hasn't.

You also prove yourself largely ignorant of what Marx did say and discredit yourself thus making it known that you have nothing of value to add to a discussion about Marxism. He saw the future capitalist societies plainly and warned against them.

With a view to checking the power and the growth of big capital the
democratic party demand a reform of the laws of inheritance and legacies,
likewise the transfer of the public services and as many industrial under-
takings as possible to the State and municipal authorities. As to the
working man — well, they should remain wage workers: for whom, how-
ever, the democratic party would procure higher wages, better labor
conditions, and a secure existence. The democrats hope to achieve that
partly through State and municipal management and through welfare
institutions. In short, they hope to bribe the working class into quiescence,
and thus to weaken their revolutionary spirit by momentary concessions
and comforts.
Full text of "Two speeches by Karl Marx : address to the Communist League, 1850 and The inaugural address of the International Workingmen's Association, delivered to the public meeting in St. Martin's Hall, Long Acre, London, on the 28th September, 1864, at which the Association was founded"

Marxism is a failure. So hold off on your narcissistic ego masturbation about “human socioeconomic relations” Socioeconomic thought existed long before Marx. Read Madison in Federalist No. 10. Please list the successful Marxist states around the world in 2018?

 

[Bush92]

Dust Bowl era was damn close though.

Land speculators and Wall Street found ways to profit from the Dust Bowl, too.

“Creating Wealth” Through Debt: the West’s Finance-Capitalist Road

"Volumes II and III of Marx’s Capital describe how debt grows exponentially, burdening the economy with carrying charges.

"This overhead is subjecting today’s Western finance-capitalist economies to austerity, shrinking living standards and capital investment while increasing their cost of living and doing business.

"That is the main reason why they are losing their export markets and becoming de-industrialized."

Marx saw finance capitalism as "fictitious capital", and he recognized its threat to workers and productive capitalists alike.

...and a loaf of bread is still about $2.50 at Wallmart here in the DC area.

Facts just keep on kicking Marxism right in the ass.

Was Marx a baker?

Yes, but not a good one.

All his products are half baked.

One thing that has always struck me as being out of the ordinary....Kids that came from wealthy European families could write such ideology about the struggle of labor and never once have a job doing labor...But instead while writing bum dough from family and friends to exist on...

Marx came from a Jewish family with a rabbinical tradition. He was supposed to be a Rabbi.

 

[Moonglow]

Land speculators and Wall Street found ways to profit from the Dust Bowl, too.

“Creating Wealth” Through Debt: the West’s Finance-Capitalist Road

"Volumes II and III of Marx’s Capital describe how debt grows exponentially, burdening the economy with carrying charges.

"This overhead is subjecting today’s Western finance-capitalist economies to austerity, shrinking living standards and capital investment while increasing their cost of living and doing business.

"That is the main reason why they are losing their export markets and becoming de-industrialized."

Marx saw finance capitalism as "fictitious capital", and he recognized its threat to workers and productive capitalists alike.

...and a loaf of bread is still about $2.50 at Wallmart here in the DC area.

Facts just keep on kicking Marxism right in the ass.

Was Marx a baker?

Yes, but not a good one.

All his products are half baked.

One thing that has always struck me as being out of the ordinary....Kids that came from wealthy European families could write such ideology about the struggle of labor and never once have a job doing labor...But instead while writing bum dough from family and friends to exist on...

Marx came from a Jewish family with a rabbinical tradition. He was supposed to be a Rabbi.

Stalin was supposed to be a priest.

 

[Moonglow]

He presented a historical narrative of socioeconomic relations not a blueprint for a workers paradise.

Lol, Marx was a philosopher who presented a Hegelian derivative world view that has been a catastrophic failure in every respect everywhere it has been tried.

Birthrates collapse, environments get desecrated, people starve to death, governments turn into totalitarian dictatorships that can only stay in power through threat of violence or actual violence as demonstrated in Venezuela and countless other nations.

Your pathetic semantic dodge merely demonstrates the underlying dishonesty of Marxism as well, dumbfuck.

The Hegelian derivative says that human social interaction is directly related to the requirement of acquiring the material needs for our survival. It also suggests that the change in socioeconomic interactions is only altered after the usefulness of the previous relations has reached its full potential and begins to be an impediment to future human socioeconomic development.

None of the examples you like to promote as failures of Marxism demonstrate this relationship. They all attempt to skip ahead and create something artificially.

Yes, but what many Americans don't understand is that in Europe the shackles of feifdom still existed and enlightened despotism. Causing such ideas to flourish in the age of revolution.

 

[FJO]

...and a loaf of bread is still about $2.50 at Wallmart here in the DC area.

Facts just keep on kicking Marxism right in the ass.

Was Marx a baker?

Yes, but not a good one.

All his products are half baked.

One thing that has always struck me as being out of the ordinary....Kids that came from wealthy European families could write such ideology about the struggle of labor and never once have a job doing labor...But instead while writing bum dough from family and friends to exist on...

Marx came from a Jewish family with a rabbinical tradition. He was supposed to be a Rabbi.

Stalin was supposed to be a priest.

So, there is proof that both of them were corrupted by religion and the death of millions they caused is really God's fault.

 

[Bush92]

He presented a historical narrative of socioeconomic relations not a blueprint for a workers paradise.

Lol, Marx was a philosopher who presented a Hegelian derivative world view that has been a catastrophic failure in every respect everywhere it has been tried.

Birthrates collapse, environments get desecrated, people starve to death, governments turn into totalitarian dictatorships that can only stay in power through threat of violence or actual violence as demonstrated in Venezuela and countless other nations.

Your pathetic semantic dodge merely demonstrates the underlying dishonesty of Marxism as well, dumbfuck.

The Hegelian derivative says that human social interaction is directly related to the requirement of acquiring the material needs for our survival. It also suggests that the change in socioeconomic interactions is only altered after the usefulness of the previous relations has reached its full potential and begins to be an impediment to future human socioeconomic development.

None of the examples you like to promote as failures of Marxism demonstrate this relationship. They all attempt to skip ahead and create something artificially.

Marx stole from Rousseau. Re-education of the masses through force if necessary. All this produces is a Soviet Union. Marxism is like a simple math equation and the results are always the same. Orwell showed that societies always revert to a class system in his work Animal Farm which was based directly on Russia post-revolution. In the Soviet Union the communist party members were the ruling class. Marx was a man that defiantly though outside the box...but his philosophy is one doomed to failure...every time.

 

[Moonglow]

Was Marx a baker?

Yes, but not a good one.

All his products are half baked.

One thing that has always struck me as being out of the ordinary....Kids that came from wealthy European families could write such ideology about the struggle of labor and never once have a job doing labor...But instead while writing bum dough from family and friends to exist on...

Marx came from a Jewish family with a rabbinical tradition. He was supposed to be a Rabbi.

Stalin was supposed to be a priest.

So, there is proof that both of them were corrupted by religion and the death of millions they caused is really God's fault.

The church was allied with every despotic ruler in Europe and was given a tax-free existence, along with the aristocracy, and they were allowed to tithe the populace at ten percent, and it was required..