hmmm..gun crime is going down...as more people own and carry guns....

[2aguy]

The easy availability of guns have given the US the highest murder rate in First World nations.
The murder rate in Canada is 1.5 per 100,000 of population

300,000,000 guns in the US.
8855 gun related murders. (2012)
99.997% of guns in the are US NOT used to commit murder.

10.548.000 gun in Canada
529 gun related murders (2011)
99.995% of guns in Canada are NOT used to commit murder.

Thus... any given gun in Canada is more likely to be used to commit murder than any given gun in the US.

There weren't 529 gun murders in Canada in 2011. There were 598 homicides in total in 2011, of which only 174 victims were killed by a gun. A knife or other cutting tool was the most common weapon used. Knives or similar tools were used in 35% of all Canadian homicides in 2011, which is around 210.

Homicide in Canada 2011

Dragonlady...yes or no...I know anti gunners don't want to answer this question because it goes directly to the outcome of their anti gun stance....

If a woman is about to be attacked, raped, by a man with a knife, a club, a gun or simply his hands....do you want this woman to have a gun to stop the attack....keeping in mind that a gun is the best way to stop stranger rape....as shown in research into how to prevent stranger rape....?

I have yet to have one anti gunner answer this question....

 

[The Rabbi]

"...as more people own and carry guns..."

Wrong.

Gun ownership is has been decreasing:

'The household gun ownership rate has fallen from an average of 50 percent in the 1970s to 49 percent in the 1980s, 43 percent in the 1990s and 35 percent in the 2000s, according to the survey data, analyzed by The New York Times.

The findings contrast with the impression left by a flurry of news reports about people rushing to buy guns and clearing shop shelves of assault rifles after the massacre last year at an elementary school in Newtown, Conn.

“There are all these claims that gun ownership is going through the roof,” said Daniel Webster, the director of theJohns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research. “But I suspect the increase in gun sales has been limited mostly to current gun owners. The most reputable surveys show a decline over time in the share of households with guns.”'

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/us/rate-of-gun-ownership-is-down-survey-shows.html?pagewanted=all

Because people are likely to tell some interviewer they own guns. I know people who would swear they have no idea what one is and own like 100.

 

[2aguy]

Look at the increase in firearm instructors and other indicators...and as The Rabbi points out...no one who has gone through a training course or researched firearms is going to tell anyone on the phone that they own guns....

Really, today...you expect more gun owners to openly admit they own guns....to a stranger on the phone...really? You need to take your meds....

 

[The Rabbi]

Look at the increase in firearm instructors and other indicators...and as The Rabbi points out...no one who has gone through a training course or researched firearms is going to tell anyone on the phone that they own guns....

Really, today...you expect more gun owners to openly admit they own guns....to a stranger on the phone...really? You need to take your meds....

I know personally I sold first guns to many people. And with more states opening up to carry permits, Illinois was the last one not to have any provision at all, the demand for carry guns has soared.

 

[2aguy]

Ask gun people clayton...ask them if they would admit to their Doctor, or a telephone survey if they have a gun, and how many they have....see what they tell you....then come back here and apologize...

 

[Dragonlady]

The easy availability of guns have given the US the highest murder rate in First World nations.
The murder rate in Canada is 1.5 per 100,000 of population

300,000,000 guns in the US.
8855 gun related murders. (2012)
99.997% of guns in the are US NOT used to commit murder.

10.548.000 gun in Canada
529 gun related murders (2011)
99.995% of guns in Canada are NOT used to commit murder.

Thus... any given gun in Canada is more likely to be used to commit murder than any given gun in the US.

Where are you getting your numbers? It looks like you're pulling them out of your ass.

There are just under 2,000,000 guns in Canada as of June, 2014, not 10 million.

Facts and Figures April - June 2014 - Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Most of the guns are owned by farmers and hunters.

 

[Dragonlady]

A woman is about to be brutally raped in Canada....her attacker is using one of these weapons...a knife, a club, a gun, his hands....in order to accomplish the rape...

Tell me...do you think this woman should be allowed to have a gun to stop the rape....yes or no...?

See, that is the other side of the equation that is never given full weight by the anti gunners....take away guns...and you create even more vicitms....see Britain....they have less gun crime but more violent crime....

Should the woman have a gun to prevent the rape - NO.

Pepper spray would be just as effective in preventing the rape, and if her attacker takes it away from her, he can't shoot her with it.

The post about higher levels of violent crime in Britain because they don't have guns, would include bar fights. Two guys are drunk in a bar and an argument starts. Words are exchanged. They go outside and take a few swings at one another. The cops are called. That's called a "violent crime". What do you think would happen if either one of these guys had a gun?

So yeah. The rate of violent crime may be higher, but the murder rate is so much lower. I'd rather than both these guys sleep it off in jail rather than have one of them dead and the other going to jail for 10 years.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Where are you getting your numbers? It looks like you're pulling them out of your ass.
There are just under 2,000,000 guns in Canada as of June, 2014, not 10 million.

Wrong. That's the number of licensees, not the number of guns.
Your head must have been in your ass when you read your source.

Here's a source that shows a mid-range estimate of 9,000,000 guns in Canada
The Number of Firearms and Firearms Owners in Canada NFA National Firearms Association Canada gun information
174 murders, 99.998% are not used to murder someone.

So....
In the US, out of every 100,000 guns, 3 are used to murder someone.
In the Maple Leaf State, out of every 100,000 guns, 2 are used to murder someone.

So much for your point.

 

[M14 Shooter]

A woman is about to be brutally raped in Canada....her attacker is using one of these weapons...a knife, a club, a gun, his hands....in order to accomplish the rape...

Tell me...do you think this woman should be allowed to have a gun to stop the rape....yes or no...?

See, that is the other side of the equation that is never given full weight by the anti gunners....take away guns...and you create even more vicitms....see Britain....they have less gun crime but more violent crime....

Should the woman have a gun to prevent the rape - NO.
Pepper spray would be just as effective in preventing the rape...

When were you raped? How do you know this?

 

[2aguy]

Well, since this isn't my first debate with someone who has an irrational fear of guns....here is a look at how to prevent stranger rape...and pepper spray ain't the way to do it...


rape more likely stopped with guns...

Guns Effective Defense Against Rape

However, most recent studies with improved methodology are consistently showing that the more forceful the resistance, the lower the risk of a completed rape, with no increase in physical injury. Sarah Ullman's original research (Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 1998) and critical review of past studies (Criminal Justice and Behavior, 1997) are especially valuable in solidifying this conclusion.

I wish to single out one particular subtype of physical resistance: Use of a weapon, and especially a firearm, is statistically a woman's best means of resistance, greatly enhancing her odds of escaping both rape and injury, compared to any other strategy of physical or verbal resistance. This conclusion is drawn from four types of information.

First, a 1989 study (Furby, Journal of Interpersonal Violence) found that both male and female survey respondents judged a gun to be the most effective means that a potential rape victim could use to fend off the assault. Rape "experts" considered it a close second, after eye-gouging.

Second, raw data from the 1979-1985 installments of the Justice Department's annual National Crime Victim Survey show that when a woman resists a stranger rape with a gun, the probability of completion was 0.1 percent and of victim injury 0.0 percent, compared to 31 percent and 40 percent, respectively, for all stranger rapes (Kleck, Social Problems, 1990).

Third, a recent paper (Southwick, Journal of Criminal Justice, 2000) analyzed victim resistance to violent crimes generally, with robbery, aggravated assault and rape considered together. Women who resisted with a gun were 2.5 times more likely to escape without injury than those who did not resist and 4 times more likely to escape uninjured than those who resisted with any means other than a gun. Similarly, their property losses in a robbery were reduced more than six-fold and almost three-fold, respectively, compared to the other categories of resistance strategy.

Fourth, we have two studies in the last 20 years that directly address the outcomes of women who resist attempted rape with a weapon. (Lizotte, Journal of Quantitative Criminology, 1986; Kleck, Social Problems, 1990.) The former concludes, "Further, women who resist rape with a gun or knife dramatically decrease their probability of completion." (Lizotte did not analyze victim injuries apart from the rape itself.) The latter concludes that "resistance with a gun or knife is the most effective form of resistance for preventing completion of a rape"; this is accomplished "without creating any significant additional risk of other injury."

So, you would take away the most effective means to keep a woman from being raped...or murdered, or stabbed or brutally beaten....nice....

 

[2aguy]

The post about higher levels of violent crime in Britain because they don't have guns, would include bar fights.

Sorry...that isn't violent crime in Britain...it is armed robbery, rape and stabbings....all higher now that guns are only allowed for criminals...as Larry Correia put it, Britain traded in the rare mass shooting, with few casualties, for a massive increase in the number of innocent people brutalized by criminals on a daily basis....

violent crime is twice the level in Britain as it is in the U.S.....

And in Britain...gun crimes have increased...

And in Australia...they seem to have a rape problem...

 

[2aguy]

This is why I like to debate the people with an irrational fear of guns...I am never going to persuade them...but in the attempt to persuade, I always find new information that shows they are wrong....

Crime is going up say police UK News Daily Express

This week at their annual conference in Bournemouth the Police Federation of England and Wales will tell their members crime is almost certainly on the rise due to the recession.

They say soft sentences imposed on offenders deter people from reporting crime and many 999 calls are not dealt with due to job cuts.

Crime in England and Wales is at its lowest level for more than 30 years, according to the Office for National Statistics.

But Steve White, vice chairman of the Police Federation, told the Sunday Express: “The ONS portrays a picture of reported crime but we believe a lot of crime still goes unreported. Historically recessions have always produced an increase in crime. We would be surprised if in fact the real level of crime is not rising.”

Since the Coalition came to power, 11,500 police jobs have been cut, reducing the number of officers in England and Wales to 132,235.

Home Secretary Theresa May is pushing through reforms which will cut 28,400 jobs by 2015

Yes, cutting police to cover the social welfare state...where have I seen that before....oh yeah...Chicago Illinois, and Chicago is down 2,000 police...and we just passed concealed carry and the crime rate is going down....

 

[2aguy]

How the British are distorting their crime numbers...

Larry Pratt British Gun Crime Stats are a 8220 Sham 8221 - The End Run

But that’s only through 2000. Has this problem gone away in recent years? No. An article published by The Telegraph in 2008 explained how “the true level of gun crime” is (still) “far higher than the Government admits in official statistics”:

Figures to be published by the Home Office this week will massively understate the scale of the problem.

Data provided to The Sunday Telegraph by nearly every police force in England and Wales, under freedom of information laws, show that the number of firearms incidents dealt with by officers annually is 60 per cent higher than figures stated by the Home Office.

Last year 5,600 firearms offences were excluded from the official figures. It means that, whereas the Home Office said there were only 9,800 offences in 2007/8, the real total was around 15,400. The latest quarterly figures, due to be released on Thursday, will again exclude a significant number of incidents.

The explanation for the gulf is that the Government figures only include cases where guns are fired, used to “pistol whip” victims, or brandished as a threat.

Thousands of offences including gun-smuggling and illegal possession of a firearm – which normally carries a minimum five-year jail sentence – are omitted from the Home Office’s headline count, raising questions about the reliability of Government crime data.

Dominic Grieve, the shadow home secretary, said: “These alarming new figures not only highlight the appalling state of gun crime in this country, but also remind us just how poor the Government’s statistics actually are.

“Crime statistics must also be compiled and published independent of the Home Office, and crime mapping rolled out so that people can have confidence in what they are being told about the state of crime in this country.”

Chris Huhne, the Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman, said the figures revealed the extent to which gun crime is a “scar on society”.

“It is shocking that the Home Office is in denial about the extent of gun crime by refusing to include offences where a gun is present but not brandished,” he said.

In all, there were at least 5,612 offences excluded from the Home Office’s official gun crime total last year, according to figures supplied by police forces.

The true total number of excluded offences will have been even higher, because two of the 43 forces in England and Wales, Thames Valley and Leicestershire, failed to hand over their data when asked to do so under the Freedom of Information Act, and a large urban force, Greater Manchester, provided incomplete statistics. Scotland records gun crime differently.

When the Home Office publishes its latest quarterly crime figures on Thursday, they will include a section on gun crime injuries and deaths, but the figures will again exclude a significant number of incidents.

The Sunday Telegraph’s figures suggest that the Metropolitan Police’s official tally of 3,300 gun crimes in 2006/7, the most recent available, would have risen to around 5,000 if excluded categories had been counted. In 2007, Met officers dealt with 1,678 firearms incidents which were not included in the official tally. The Met’s figures show that offences of firearms possession in the capital rose from 850 five years ago to 1,400 last year.

After the Met, the second-highest number of offences excluded from the official statistics was recorded by West Midlands Police with 404, taking the force’s true annual total of gun crimes to around 1,400.

Similarly, The Independent has reported on a 2007 study which found that around TWO MILLION (2,000,000) violent crimes are excluded from the yearly British Crime Survey totals due to a “misleading” and “bizarre distortion in the Government’s flagship crime figures.”

 

[Dragonlady]

I look at the accidental shootings involving children, the number of suicides involving guns, and cases like the Treyvon Martin shooting, where had these people been living in Canada, they would never had a weapon in their hands.

Violent attacks by strangers a very rare. You're more likely to be raped by someone you meet at a party, after being drugged, than you are to be brutally beaten and left for dead. You assume that the woman could pull and fire the gun under these circumstances. Not everyone can, and if she can't, the weapon can be taken away and used against her.

I live in a country where people don't lock their doors. As a real estate law clerk, I am required to hand over the keys to a house on the closing of the sale. I've lost count of the number of clients who had trouble finding a key to hand over. When I bought my first house, we had to get a locksmith to change the locks on the door because the previous owners never had a key to the house. Even living in downtown Toronto, if we were home, our doors were unlocked and often open, as were those of all of our neighbours.

Canada is very different from the US. People aren't paranoid, living in gated communities with guns to protect themselves. It's not necessary. In our neighbourhood, break-ins were the worst we had to face, and those happened when people were out. Home alarm systems are big sellers.

I don't have an irrational fear of guns. Now that we live in the country, we are planning on getting a small rifle because we have a coyote problem, and keep chickens and ducks. But we still don't lock our doors.

 

[Politico]

Ten pages of silly splitting hairs. No it's not true because less people own them. Yes it is. No it's not. None of it is relevant.

 

[2aguy]

I look at the accidental shootings involving children, the number of suicides involving guns, and cases like the Treyvon Martin shooting

Maybe 60-70 children a year die in accidental gun deaths....vs...how many drown in pools, it is tragic and sad, but in a country of 300 million people with 310 million guns, it does not even come close to a reason to deny people the basic right to self defense. Suicides...have nothing to do with guns....Japan has absolute gun control and twice the rate of suicides as the U.S...and even when Australia had their gun buy back program it didn't effect their suicide rate...

As to the Zimmerman-Martin shooting...if Zimmerman did not have that gun he would be dead after Martin violently assaulted him....

Keep in mind, most of the U.S. is as peaceful as Canada...it is only the inner cities, under the control of democrat politicians and their policies where you see the worst of the gun violence....we have 300 million people, far more ethnically diverse than Canada, especially in our inner cities, and over 310 million guns in private hands, and yet, we only have 9-10,000 gun murders a year. On the other side of the equation, guns are used to save lives on average and stop violent crime 1.4 million times a year....even if you combine gun murders and accidental gun deaths...it doesn't come close to the crimes stopped and lives saved by good people using guns.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I look at the accidental shootings involving children, the number of suicides involving guns, and cases like the Treyvon Martin shooting, where had these people been living in Canada, they would never had a weapon in their hands.

Pulling stuff our of your ass agian, eh?

If The maple Leaf State's society is so awesome and its gun law so great, why is any given gun in Canada just as likely to be used to murder someone as it is in the US?

 

[M14 Shooter]

Where are you getting your numbers? It looks like you're pulling them out of your ass.
There are just under 2,000,000 guns in Canada as of June, 2014, not 10 million.

Wrong. That's the number of licensees, not the number of guns.
Your head must have been in your ass when you read your source.

Here's a source that shows a mid-range estimate of 9,000,000 guns in Canada
The Number of Firearms and Firearms Owners in Canada NFA National Firearms Association Canada gun information
174 murders, 99.998% are not used to murder someone.

So....
In the US, out of every 100,000 guns, 3 are used to murder someone.
In the Maple Leaf State, out of every 100,000 guns, 2 are used to murder someone.

So much for your point.

M14 Shooter << Notes the failure to effectively respond

 

[Dragonlady]

The figures you have used are, at best, a wildly enthusiastic guesstimate, brought to us by the Canadian equivalent of the NRA.

Until recently, Canada had a national long gun registry where all unlicensed weapons were registered. The RCMP estimates that in total, between the licensed guns and the unlicensed long guns, there are under 8,000,000 guns in Canada.

It's interesting to note that the murder rate in the US and Canada, other than homicides using guns, is about the same.

As for immigrant populations, you obviously have not even looked at the demographics for Canadian cities. 55% of the population of Toronto consists of visible minorities. I would guess that downtown, where we lived, that percentage is even higher.

Half the kids at my daughter's school were Asian, 25% were black or mixed race, and 25% were white.

I'm told that Vancouver has an even higher percentage of immigrants than Toronto.

 

[M14 Shooter]

The figures you have used are, at best, a wildly enthusiastic guesstimate, brought to us by the Canadian equivalent of the NRA.
Until recently, Canada had a national long gun registry where all unlicensed weapons were registered. The RCMP estimates that in total, between the licensed guns and the unlicensed long guns, there are under 8,000,000 guns in Canada.

OK...
8,000,000 guns. 174 murders. 99.997% of guns not involved in a murder. Same as the US.
How do you think you still have a point?

If The Maple Leaf State's society is so awesome and its gun law so great, why is any given gun in Canada just as likely to be used to murder someone as it is in the US?