Holocaust deniers

[Urbanguerrilla]

From Wikipedia: Holocaust denial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And, examination of the claims:

Wikipedia is highly unreliable.

It does provide sources though, so you can track down original material.

In reality that doesnt happen, people use it willy-nilly and it is not questioned, in my opinion it is tainted as a source especially on the holocaust.

 

[Urbanguerrilla]

What we see is piles of dead bodies, or skinny men, now how did they die? Must of been illness or starvation. A person of skin and bones like that does not walk into a gas chamber and stand there, and then gets pulled out and put in a pile. I imagine when they were not in a rush they did bury the bodies or mass burn them, dead bodies lying around cause more disease. You can see these pictures in Soviet camps as well as Japanese camps. What would be the use of gassing skin and bones.

Not saying this is at all a good thing,but war is war, Germany also was one country that suffered fromthe 30's depression the worst. Now after the war

here is Eisenhower, and his camps for Geman Pows, non war time.

Mass Starvation of Germans, 1945-1950

we never hear of that.

I knew a lady when I was growing up who lived in Germany during the war and later emigrated to the US. She was young during the Reich era and lived on a small family farm. When I started learning about Germany and WW2 I asked her how all those people could have been starved like that, and she told me that there was nothing left at the end of the war. She recalled a story near the end where a couple German soldiers came to the house asking for food, and all her mother had to give them was a couple half rotten potatoes. She said had they not had the farm they would have been up the creek.

There were horrible things....here's a little known story. The Nazi's - as part of their "eugenics" program, selected women with the right "aryan" traits to be "broodmares" for the new race. This occurred in Sweden I think...the women had little choice. When the war ended, they and their children were horribly ostracized and demonized - to this day.

There were a lot of horrible things. But nothing can excuse choosing to kill or allow to die (rather than set free) all the people they had incarcerated for NO CRIME other than a matter of birth.

And NOTHING can ever ever even remotely excuse the deliberate, inhuman "medical" experiments they performed on those people.

Sweden was neutral and not occupied by the Germans.

All the Allied countries also incarcerated people for no other reason than that they were from enemy countries.

 

[Urbanguerrilla]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/world/europe/07nazi.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Nazi Program to Breed Master Race: Lebensborn Children Break Silence - SPIEGEL ONLINE

Coyote, here are a couple of links to articles about the Nazi breeding program.

The Nazis also kidnapped thousands of children from their families because they looked 'Aryan':

Stolen by the Nazis: The tragic tale of 12,000 blue-eyed blond children taken by the SS to create an Aryan super-race | Mail Online

All of your links are to newspapers, something we can all agree on is that newspapers LIE all the time and print whatever they like.

Newspapers are all politically motivated to write lies and nonsense all the time. Do not use papers as any kind of source.

 

[Urbanguerrilla]

Nazi Human Experiments
How do you excuse this? What sort of historic revisionism makes this excusable?

Revisionists believe that this nonsense was written about the Nazis for propaganda purposes and that people were asked to do experiments and take drugs on much the same basis as people are asked to do these things today by scientists and hospitals.

And they were paid

 

[Urbanguerrilla]

You guys keep on saying the Nazi's. Is this some PC nonsense? THEY WERE AND ARE GERMANS. They are one in the same. WTF??????????

That is true, but the holocaust industry needs to pretend that they became mad and twisted when they adopted National Socialism because they want to use Germany today as an ally economically and militarily initially against the USSR.

In point of fact the Nazis were probably less right wing than many Americans today.

 

[Urbanguerrilla]

"So they buried the dead........is that a crime?

Besides, there is nothing in the picture that says those bodies were jews?

They could be german civilians, russian soldiers, dead german soldiers, etc.

And there no why to tell the cause of death.........starvation, disease, exhaustion??

Do you see any Star of David on the bodies?

But the jews want to keep the holocaust myth alive.

So they claim every picture shows dead jews. "

[MENTION=30742]SunniMan[/MENTION]: NOBODY - not Wiki, not Peach, not me, nor any other poster ever made a claim that the murder victims in that photo were Jewish.

Your entire rant is about something which hasn't happened here. The picture is not connected to Nazi murders of Jews: it's obvious it's your obsession which impelled you to start that rant. And the fact that the discussion was focused on German deliberate murder of Polish and Byelorussian individuals simply proves again just how nonfactual your rant truly is.

I do not get it------is Penelope trying to "prove" that the genocide of jews during
world war II did not happen because there were also massacres of non jews?. Is she
that stupid?

No.

Its no surprise you dont get it.

 

[Nutz]

You guys keep on saying the Nazi's. Is this some PC nonsense? THEY WERE AND ARE GERMANS. They are one in the same. WTF??????????

In point of fact the Nazis were probably less right wing than many Americans today.

That is irrelevant. The Nazi GERMANS were killers. They were/ are a people full of hate and bloodlust and they are responsible for the greatest atrocities in American history. Disgusting people that should never have been allowed to govern themselves again.

 

[Urbanguerrilla]

Katyn massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@ Penelope: That photo is a picture of the Khatyn massacre, of murdered Byelorussian civilians killed in 1943 by Nazi troops.

That crime was a different one than the 1940 Katyn massacre to which you alluded.
Katyn massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And yes, that crime was committed by Stalin's NKVD while blaming the Nazis. They never 'fessed up until the '90's. Considering how many times Germany and Russia marched across Poland to 'rescue' it from one another, nobody should really be very surprised about that.........

nor should they be surprised at the high Jewish death toll.

There wasnt a high Jewish death toll, in fact it was exceptionally low, 300,000.

In effect Hitler removed the Jews from the main cities and the main theatres of war and preserved them in camps.

He didn't mean this to happen of course, he hated them but when you think about it the fact that he saved so many of them (as an accidental by-product of his policies) is the Jews greatest victory against Hitler and the Nazis

 

[Urbanguerrilla]

Ok...so getting back to the Holocaust - no one seems to have actually disproved all the testimonies of people who witnessed people being killed (as opposed to "dying"). Not to mention the existence - not implicit but directly addressed - of Gas Wagons, which were the precursor to Gas Chambers.

They never found any of these gas vans.

There are pictures of vans but they are shown only as an example of the type that may have been used.

People who support the holocaust idea say all of the evidence was successfully destroyed by the Nazis but I dont think you can build a case on the basis of saying, 'all the evidence is gone but it was there', your case would be laughed out of court.

 

[Urbanguerrilla]

deaths under the German occupation at 5,470,000 to 5,670,000, half of whom were Jewish.

what is the racial, religious, ethnic, etc breakdown of the OTHER half who died ?

I'm not disputing that and all the deaths should be remembered. But I think it's important to also think in terms of percentages of populations as well when you are talking about genocide. It brings meaning to scale: Was the Holocaust Only Against Jews?

A far higher percentage of Jews were lost than that of their non-Jewish counterparts in all other groups. While 90% of Poland's Jewish population was decimated, 94% of Polish Christians survived. Close to 60% of Europe's total Jewish population was murdered, while the millions of Russians deaths represented 15% of their population. A large number of Poles and Russians were killed during the German Army's invasion and occupation of their lands, and many Russian soldiers died in captivity in violation of international conventions. It would seem inaccurate to classify these dead as Holocaust victims, although racism was undeniably a factor in the treatment they received.

But, I agree - the others are frequently overlooked (from the same source)

2 million ethnic Poles
6 million Soviet citizens
2 million Soviet POW's
1.5 million Gypsies
200,000 handicapped and mentally retarded Germans
5,000 – 15,000 homosexuals

The bottom line: The Nazis were barbaric clods and Holocaust Deniers here are even lower.

I'm sure you'll agree though that people in a democratic society have the right to ask questions about this or any other event and have the right to be heard and also not to be molested, attacked, vilified or unjustly imprisoned.

 

[Urbanguerrilla]

I'm not disputing that and all the deaths should be remembered. But I think it's important to also think in terms of percentages of populations as well when you are talking about genocide. It brings meaning to scale: Was the Holocaust Only Against Jews?

But, I agree - the others are frequently overlooked (from the same source)

2 million ethnic Poles
6 million Soviet citizens
2 million Soviet POW's
1.5 million Gypsies
200,000 handicapped and mentally retarded Germans
5,000 – 15,000 homosexuals

The bottom line: The Nazis were barbaric clods and Holocaust Deniers here are even lower.

Again with the removal of Germany from the atrocities they committed. The deniers have already won...you don't blame Germans and Germany for their bloodlust...you blame the mystical Nazi that only existed for a brief moment in history and are forever gone.

Holocaust deniers win! Germany has been taken out of the equation.

You seem to have a racial hatred of Germans.

Why do you believe the Germans to be more capable of 'exterminating' people than any other nation?

I would remind you that the US was built on the destruction and dispossession of c.20 million natives and today many of those people's ancestors live in concentration camps, er...reservations.

But lets just blame the Germans eh?

 

[Nutz]

The bottom line: The Nazis were barbaric clods and Holocaust Deniers here are even lower.

Again with the removal of Germany from the atrocities they committed. The deniers have already won...you don't blame Germans and Germany for their bloodlust...you blame the mystical Nazi that only existed for a brief moment in history and are forever gone.

Holocaust deniers win! Germany has been taken out of the equation.

You seem to have a racial hatred of Germans.

Why do you believe the Germans to be more capable of 'exterminating' people than any other nation?

I would remind you that the US was built on the destruction and dispossession of c.20 million natives and today many of those people's ancestors live in concentration camps, er...reservations.

But lets just blame the Germans eh?

Why do you defend Germany and their history of hate and bloodlust is the better question?

 

[Penelope]

The bottom line: The Nazis were barbaric clods and Holocaust Deniers here are even lower.

Again with the removal of Germany from the atrocities they committed. The deniers have already won...you don't blame Germans and Germany for their bloodlust...you blame the mystical Nazi that only existed for a brief moment in history and are forever gone.

Holocaust deniers win! Germany has been taken out of the equation.

You seem to have a racial hatred of Germans.

Why do you believe the Germans to be more capable of 'exterminating' people than any other nation?

I would remind you that the US was built on the destruction and dispossession of c.20 million natives and today many of those people's ancestors live in concentration camps, er...reservations.

But lets just blame the Germans eh?

Yes its a terrible thing what they did to the German people the country which still lingers today, as though everyone else involved in WWII was innocent.

 

[irosie91]

"So they buried the dead........is that a crime?

Besides, there is nothing in the picture that says those bodies were jews?

They could be german civilians, russian soldiers, dead german soldiers, etc.

And there no why to tell the cause of death.........starvation, disease, exhaustion??

Do you see any Star of David on the bodies?

But the jews want to keep the holocaust myth alive.

So they claim every picture shows dead jews. "

[MENTION=30742]SunniMan[/MENTION]: NOBODY - not Wiki, not Peach, not me, nor any other poster ever made a claim that the murder victims in that photo were Jewish.

Your entire rant is about something which hasn't happened here. The picture is not connected to Nazi murders of Jews: it's obvious it's your obsession which impelled you to start that rant. And the fact that the discussion was focused on German deliberate murder of Polish and Byelorussian individuals simply proves again just how nonfactual your rant truly is.

I do not get it------is Penelope trying to "prove" that the genocide of jews during
world war II did not happen because there were also massacres of non jews?. Is she
that stupid?

No.

Its no surprise you dont get it.

ok YOU GOT IT------what is she trying to "prove"? ---other than the fact that she is an idiot
who admits that her own people cannot read and write and therefore are unable to
publish books and newspapers in the USA

 

[Penelope]

Not much of a historian are you. The only people who blamed the Germans for the Katyen Forest Massacre were the Russians.

That is not true, the used that at the trial. The Russians blamed a lot of Germany which is yet to be found out , thank God for revisionism. If you read under the post she blamed Germany.

@ Penelope: There were TWO separate massacres. One in 1940 of Polish officers and others in the KATYN FOREST, which I very clearly stated was perpetrated by the Russian NKVD.

There was also a massacre of civilians at Khatyn in Byelorussia, in 1943: that was perpetrated by the Nazi Germans, who burned many different towns throughout Byelorussia.

I am not responsible for the picture. But I will be informing Wikipedia that the picture is inaccurate and misleading.

None of that, however, changes the facts about Nazi atrocities in Byelorussia and other areas which they overran.

As I said I was going to research This Khatyn Byelourussia killings and I did. Seems this was after the Holodomor in Ukraine which resulted in a lot of angry people. So they were mainly Ukraines who went with the Germans in German uniforms , so they are not Germans, they were a mixture. Also that area was working with Russia , although many were innocent , they got caught up in the fighting. Russia tried two of the leaders. So its misleading to say this was another German massacre.

G. Vassiura — Head of the 118th police battalion headquarters

The 118th police battalion was formed late in 1942 in the city of Kiev. It was made of Soviet hooked prisoners of war, deserters and criminals who agreed to cooperate with invaders. They had special training in different German schools, they wore German uniform and swore fealty to Hitler. Doing so they betrayed their Motherland. In Kiev the battalion was especially notorious for annihilating people in Babi Yar. That outrage and ferocity was like a good letter of reference for them to be sent to Belorussia.

The battalion arrived in the small of town of Pleschinitsy. Each department was headed by a chief. He was a German officer in charge of his people and it was him who supervised their crimes. The 118th police battalion chief was a Sturmbannfuhrer (SS Major) Erich Kerner. Hans Welke was the chief of one of the companies. (He was the 1936 Olympic Games champion in shotput). When the war started Welke was not sent to the eastern front. He earned all of his iron Crosses at the rear. It was him who partisans finished off at the road fork for Pleschinitsy, Logoisk, Kozyry and Khatyn. Grigory Vassiura was chief of the 118th police battalion headquarters. His outrage knew no limits. He was cruel even with his subordinates. He participated in many punitive operations which deprived hunderds of innocent people of their lives.

A court trial was held in Minsk in 1986. A hangman of Khatyn G. Vassiura was tried there. The 14 volumes of case No. 104 abounded in many vivid facts of awesome outrage of the punisher. Vassiura was found guilty of all his crimes and by the verdict of the military tribunal of the Belorussian military district was sentenced to death by capital punishment.


The 118th police battalion

Of course Russia and Jewish writers would say German leaders supervised their crimes. I mean it was blamed on the Germans.

 

[Coyote]

Wikipedia is highly unreliable.

It does provide sources though, so you can track down original material.

In reality that doesnt happen, people use it willy-nilly and it is not questioned, in my opinion it is tainted as a source especially on the holocaust.

If you question what is in it, all you have to do is ask them to back up some point with original source material. Wiki is far better than sources which require no citations or cite themselves as a source.

 

[Peach]

It does provide sources though, so you can track down original material.

In reality that doesnt happen, people use it willy-nilly and it is not questioned, in my opinion it is tainted as a source especially on the holocaust.

If you question what is in it, all you have to do is ask them to back up some point with original source material. Wiki is far better than sources which require no citations or cite themselves as a source.

3,000 TONS of evidence, thousands of confessions, and tens of thousands of eyewitnesses. SIX million killed.

 

[irosie91]

[

Yes its a terrible thing what they did to the German people the country which still lingers today, as though everyone else involved in WWII was innocent.

do you have a link to that IDEOLOGY which is ----
"everyone is innocent of the events of world war II------ except germans"???
I never heard of such a belief system

BTW who is the "they" who did----whatever it is you think "they" did----to the
German people? Are you german? do you feel something was "DONE"
to you------by somebody or -----lots of people?

 

[MHunterB]

Katyn massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@ Penelope: That photo is a picture of the Khatyn massacre, of murdered Byelorussian civilians killed in 1943 by Nazi troops.

That crime was a different one than the 1940 Katyn massacre to which you alluded.
Katyn massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And yes, that crime was committed by Stalin's NKVD while blaming the Nazis. They never 'fessed up until the '90's. Considering how many times Germany and Russia marched across Poland to 'rescue' it from one another, nobody should really be very surprised about that.........

nor should they be surprised at the high Jewish death toll.

There wasnt a high Jewish death toll, in fact it was exceptionally low, 300,000.

In effect Hitler removed the Jews from the main cities and the main theatres of war and preserved them in camps.

He didn't mean this to happen of course, he hated them but when you think about it the fact that he saved so many of them (as an accidental by-product of his policies) is the Jews greatest victory against Hitler and the Nazis

The Holocaust in occupied Poland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Prior to Second World War there were 3,500,000 Jews in the Polish Second Republic, about 10% of the population, living predominantly in the cities. Between the 1939 German invasion of Poland, and the end of World War II, over 90% of Polish Jewry perished."

One wonders what [MENTION=24727]Urbanguerrilla[/MENTION] has been smoking - or where he got that 'low' figure. The rest of his post is now toast since it relied on a number which was off by a factor of about 10.

 

[MHunterB]

Again with the removal of Germany from the atrocities they committed. The deniers have already won...you don't blame Germans and Germany for their bloodlust...you blame the mystical Nazi that only existed for a brief moment in history and are forever gone.

Holocaust deniers win! Germany has been taken out of the equation.

You seem to have a racial hatred of Germans.

Why do you believe the Germans to be more capable of 'exterminating' people than any other nation?

I would remind you that the US was built on the destruction and dispossession of c.20 million natives and today many of those people's ancestors live in concentration camps, er...reservations.

But lets just blame the Germans eh?

Yes its a terrible thing what they did to the German people the country which still lingers today, as though everyone else involved in WWII was innocent.

The millions of civilians the Nazi SS and their assistants murdered were certainly innocent.