How do you explain a ordered universe without a Creator?

[sealybobo]

Agreed. Although I lean towards disbelief so I'm an agnostic atheist.....

Being an "agnostic atheist" or agnostic theist" makes as much sense as being "a little bit pregnant".

Comes down to this. You believe in God because of flawed logic and lies. But you don't know. I don't believe your logic or " evidence" of its existence but to KNOW you'd have to be a God yourself.

When you are pregnant that's a fact. God is not a fact. It isn't even a theory. Not enough scientific evidence. In fact there's zero. Pretty weak. All you have is a hypothesis.

But as far as there being something that created the universe? No one know. No evidence to support it tho

 

[sealybobo]

Agreed. Although I lean towards disbelief so I'm an agnostic atheist.....

Being an "agnostic atheist" or agnostic theist" makes as much sense as being "a little bit pregnant".

Not really.

An agnostic is someone who needs definitive proof one way or the other before they can either believe or disbelieve in the existence of God.

I'd say until that proof comes to light, one way or the other, its the most sensible position.



Many people believe or disbelieve in the existence of God based on the written words of scripture. Those who fail to comprehend the deeper meaning of the words and subjects, that are not necessarily directly connected to the literal meaning of the words used, are believing or disbelieving in God based on what scripture is not about.

You seem to agree, yet said "not really", so I'm not sure what you are saying.

Agreed agnostic is the only logical position. Both atheists and theists are taking a position based on belief, not fact. To declare oneself an "agnostic atheist" or "agnostic theist" is a bullshit position. It means nothing except the person declaring it is confused and weak.

Ha ha! That's what we think of pussy agnostics. They know Mary wasn't a virgin.

Not enough evidence? How about no evidence.

 

[sealybobo]

Do yo

Agreed. Although I lean towards disbelief so I'm an agnostic atheist.....

Being an "agnostic atheist" or agnostic theist" makes as much sense as being "a little bit pregnant".

Not really.

An agnostic is someone who needs definitive proof one way or the other before they can either believe or disbelieve in the existence of God.

I'd say until that proof comes to light, one way or the other, its the most sensible position.



Many people believe or disbelieve in the existence of God based on the written words of scripture. Those who fail to comprehend the deeper meaning of the words and subjects, that are not necessarily directly connected to the literal meaning of the words used, are believing or disbelieving in God based on what scripture is not about.

You seem to agree, yet said "not really", so I'm not sure what you are saying.

Agreed agnostic is the only logical position. Both atheists and theists are taking a position based on belief, not fact. To declare oneself an "agnostic atheist" or "agnostic theist" is a bullshit position. It means nothing except the person declaring it is confused and weak.

Do you believe God talked to Moses Joseph Smith or Mohammad? Dumb agnostic bastards.

 

[Divine Wind]

Ha ha! That's what we think of pussy agnostics.....

.....Dumb agnostic bastards.

You have bigger problems than deciding what to believe, kid.

 

[sealybobo]

Ha ha! That's what we think of pussy agnostics.....

.....Dumb agnostic bastards.

You have bigger problems than deciding what to believe, kid.

If you don't understand agnostic atheism it's because you are confused. You don't believe God takes to Joseph Smith Moses and Mohammad. You know you don't. But as far as being able to say I know there is no God, no atheist can say they know. But that's what theists put in our mouth when we argue this. So we will itmit we don't know but strongly do not believe it. Saying we are agnostic atheist is us atheists conceeding we can't know.

But as far as theists knowing God does exist because he visited? Bullshit. Will they admit they are agnostic theists? No. But they assume a position of knowing???

 

[Lutroo]

Then you aren't using your brain. God created the universe in six 24 days. That's what the Bible says.

The Bible also says not to eat pork or shellfish. Do you avoid BBQ pork ribs and Shrimp Po'Boys? Ham for breakfast? Almost every political leader we have has violated the Ten Commandments. What are the penalties for doing so?

The fact remains the Bible was not only written by the flawed hand of desert nomads beginning over 2500 years ago, but was edited by a group of biased clergymen under Emperor Constantine in 325AD. While the Bible remains an excellent book of wisdom and a guide to becoming closer to God, it must be seen as imperfect just like man himself.

You are so wrong. God's word is infallible. If you believe otherwise, then I must question your faith. Do you really believe that the one who created the universe is not able to make certain that His word gets to us intact and without error? What a puny god you worship.

And the prohibition against pork is Jewish law. It was not intended for Christians. The Ten Commandments, on the other hand, are for everyone.

 

[sealybobo]

If theists think future humans are going to continue to believe a fairytale. We are still a young superstitious species. Look at the Muslims. 500 years behind us

 

[sealybobo]

Then you aren't using your brain. God created the universe in six 24 days. That's what the Bible says.

The Bible also says not to eat pork or shellfish. Do you avoid BBQ pork ribs and Shrimp Po'Boys? Ham for breakfast? Almost every political leader we have has violated the Ten Commandments. What are the penalties for doing so?

The fact remains the Bible was not only written by the flawed hand of desert nomads beginning over 2500 years ago, but was edited by a group of biased clergymen under Emperor Constantine in 325AD. While the Bible remains an excellent book of wisdom and a guide to becoming closer to God, it must be seen as imperfect just like man himself.

You are so wrong. God's word is infallible. If you believe otherwise, then I must question your faith. Do you really believe that the one who created the universe is not able to make certain that His word gets to us intact and without error? What a puny god you worship.

God told me he doesn't exist.

 

[Divine Wind]

You are so wrong. God's word is infallible. If you believe otherwise, then I must question your faith. Do you really believe that the one who created the universe is not able to make certain that His word gets to us intact and without error? What a puny god you worship.

And the prohibition against pork is Jewish law. It was not intended for Christians. The Ten Commandments, on the other hand, are for everyone.

God is infallible, mankind...and anything touched by man, not so much.

If God really wanted us to know the true word of God, God could have imprinted it upon our brains or written it in the stars. I think part of the challenge is figuring out the true meaning of existence, God and our relation to all of it.

 

[Lutroo]

You are so wrong. God's word is infallible. If you believe otherwise, then I must question your faith. Do you really believe that the one who created the universe is not able to make certain that His word gets to us intact and without error? What a puny god you worship.

And the prohibition against pork is Jewish law. It was not intended for Christians. The Ten Commandments, on the other hand, are for everyone.

God is infallible, mankind...and anything touched by man, not so much.

If God really wanted us to know the true word of God, God could have imprinted it upon our brains or written it in the stars. I think part of the challenge is figuring out the true meaning of existence, God and our relation to all of it.

True meaning of existence: All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. That knowledge, and the willingness to repent and follow Christ is all you need.

 

[Foxfyre]

On the first day, God said let there be light. I'm not sure about you, But think that a all powerful Being can create the universe however He wants to.

While I agree, I also believe God to be honest, just and fair. God made the rules of the universe and, per those rules, we developed brains to investigate and try to understand it.

Is that any doubt that God could also have created the Big Bang 13.77B years ago knowing that, billions of years later, life would develop on Earth according to the rules set at the Big Bang?

Of course he could. I once had an atheist friend who explained it as the vacuum cleaner theory of creation. All the bits and pieces of the universe came together in an enormous sack. And as the sack was shaken, given an unlimited length of time, all those pieces would at some point come together in the form of a working vacuum cleaner. Thus our existence now is just that point in all of eternity that the pieces came together as they are.

Then the scientists, based on observed movement of visible objects in space, came up with the big bang theory. It was all gathered together until somehow it all blew apart with the universe ever expanding ever since.

And the proponents of the Big Boss theory concur with those possibilities but with the caveat that something had to shake the sack or something had to light the fuse.

The fact is that none of us really know how matter came to be in the first place or how it came to be in the forms that we have. But it provides endless exercises in speculation, theory, experimentation, and hypothesis. And those of us who intuitively appreciation the improbability of it all happening purely by chance.

Probably we'll all be surprised when the full truth is revealed to us.

If it's ever revealed or discovered by mankind in our lifetimes.

The Universe itself doesn't appear to be eternal, but finite. It had a definite beginning and, even in current theory of expanding, accellerating Universe to a cold, dead end, will still be devoid of all life and light at some point.

I don't expect it to be revealed to us in our lifetime or in the next thousand years actually. Even with the enormous acceleration of our knowledge of science and technology in recent decades, I suspect we will remain technological and scientific infants for many generations to come. We certainly will need to learn how to achieve warp speed in our travels to be able to explore much of even our own galaxy, much less anywhere else. And we are nowhere near attaining that goal.

Of course if we are visited by more advanced beings willing to teach in this or future generations, the process could be significantly speeded up.

 

[IsaacNewton]

How do you explain a 'creator' and how do you explain that your version of one is correct out of the 40,000 or so humans have come up with so far?

 

[there4eyeM]

One could only know 'God' through direct, personal revelation. Such a revelation could not be fully communicated to another. Any other 'knowledge' of 'God' has come through communication about 'God', and all communication is the same. Thus, anyone's learned concept of 'God' is no more valid than another's.
Insisting that one hear-tell version is superior to another is a form of mental illness.

 

[sealybobo]

You are so wrong. God's word is infallible. If you believe otherwise, then I must question your faith. Do you really believe that the one who created the universe is not able to make certain that His word gets to us intact and without error? What a puny god you worship.

And the prohibition against pork is Jewish law. It was not intended for Christians. The Ten Commandments, on the other hand, are for everyone.

God is infallible, mankind...and anything touched by man, not so much.

If God really wanted us to know the true word of God, God could have imprinted it upon our brains or written it in the stars. I think part of the challenge is figuring out the true meaning of existence, God and our relation to all of it.

True meaning of existence: All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. That knowledge, and the willingness to repent and follow Christ is all you need.

What if you don't believe Jesus was the son of God? Muslims Jews and atheists don't believe that

 

[Divine Wind]

One could only know 'God' through direct, personal revelation. Such a revelation could not be fully communicated to another. Any other 'knowledge' of 'God' has come through communication about 'God', and all communication is the same. Thus, anyone's learned concept of 'God' is no more valid than another's.
Insisting that one hear-tell version is superior to another is a form of mental illness.

What form of mental illness?

I do agree that those who say their way is the only way are very limited in their mindset. This could easily be more about limited mental capacity rather than mental illness....and it doesn't matter if they are atheist, theist, Liberal, Conservative, Democrat or Republican.

 

[Divine Wind]

I don't expect it to be revealed to us in our lifetime or in the next thousand years actually. Even with the enormous acceleration of our knowledge of science and technology in recent decades, I suspect we will remain technological and scientific infants for many generations to come. We certainly will need to learn how to achieve warp speed in our travels to be able to explore much of even our own galaxy, much less anywhere else. And we are nowhere near attaining that goal.

Of course if we are visited by more advanced beings willing to teach in this or future generations, the process could be significantly speeded up.

I think you are conflating two separate things; spirituality and technology, but agree our society often does the same.

I've seen poor people who were very happy. "Poor" being defined as having adequate food and shelter, but no iPods, iPhones or television. I've seen some very wealthy people who are very unhappy. Consider Prince; all the wealth and fame a person could want, but he was so unhappy he drugged himself out of reality.

While technology can help save our race, it can't make us happy nor, for those like myself who believe there is more to existence than physical reality, spiritually mature.

Agreed our species will remain technologically weak for decades if not centuries. Let's just hope we find a way to get off this planet before a giant rock hits it or a super volcano takes out most lifeforms.

 

[Foxfyre]

I don't expect it to be revealed to us in our lifetime or in the next thousand years actually. Even with the enormous acceleration of our knowledge of science and technology in recent decades, I suspect we will remain technological and scientific infants for many generations to come. We certainly will need to learn how to achieve warp speed in our travels to be able to explore much of even our own galaxy, much less anywhere else. And we are nowhere near attaining that goal.

Of course if we are visited by more advanced beings willing to teach in this or future generations, the process could be significantly speeded up.

I think you are conflating two separate things; spirituality and technology, but agree our society often does the same.

I've seen poor people who were very happy. "Poor" being defined as having adequate food and shelter, but no iPods, iPhones or television. I've seen some very wealthy people who are very unhappy. Consider Prince; all the wealth and fame a person could want, but he was so unhappy he drugged himself out of reality.

While technology can help save our race, it can't make us happy nor, for those like myself who believe there is more to existence than physical reality, spiritually mature.

Agreed our species will remain technologically weak for decades if not centuries. Let's just hope we find a way to get off this planet before a giant rock hits it or a super volcano takes out most lifeforms.

My spirituality includes a belief in eternal life. And I don't think we will be privy to know a whole bunch of stuff until we step out of this life into that next one. That is when I think it all will be revealed to us.

Until then we are stuck with our human limitations to advance science and technology though occasionally some might receive a spark of divine inspiration that will help push things along a bit faster.

None of that has anything to do with rich or poor or happy or unhappy that are totally different subjects.

 

[Divine Wind]

My spirituality includes a belief in eternal life. And I don't think we will be privy to know a whole bunch of stuff until we step out of this life into that next one. That is when I think it all will be revealed to us.

Until then we are stuck with our human limitations to advance science and technology though occasionally some might receive a spark of divine inspiration that will help push things along a bit faster.

None of that has anything to do with rich or poor or happy or unhappy that are totally different subjects.

My point was that technology and spiritual development are two separate things. We're all going to die. Sure, some seek technological development to preserve life up to the end of time, but, IMHO, that could be akin to a person who never seeks to graduate HS and move on with their life.

I strongly doubt we'll ever develop a machine or a pill that will give us spiritual awakening, enlightenment or development. It's something we have to develop on our own.

 

[Foxfyre]

My spirituality includes a belief in eternal life. And I don't think we will be privy to know a whole bunch of stuff until we step out of this life into that next one. That is when I think it all will be revealed to us.

Until then we are stuck with our human limitations to advance science and technology though occasionally some might receive a spark of divine inspiration that will help push things along a bit faster.

None of that has anything to do with rich or poor or happy or unhappy that are totally different subjects.

My point was that technology and spiritual development are two separate things. We're all going to die. Sure, some seek technological development to preserve life up to the end of time, but, IMHO, that could be akin to a person who never seeks to graduate HS and move on with their life.

I strongly doubt we'll ever develop a machine or a pill that will give us spiritual awakening, enlightenment or development. It's something we have to develop on our own.

I agree that machines or pills or anything else in our material world will never intermingle with our spiritual existence. At the same time, I do think the health of our spiritual selves is a large part of how and why we relate to the material world.

For me the possibilities that exist in what science and technology we haven't learned about goes much further than just solving immediate problems though I don't think God gives us any problems for which there will never be a solution. I'm just excited about the possibilities.

 

[Coyote]

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

What makes you think there IS order?