How do you explain a ordered universe without a Creator?

[Lutroo]

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

What makes you think there IS order?

What makes you think there isn't? I assure you, if you ask any physicist, they will tell you the universe is extremely ordered.

 

[Coyote]

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

What makes you think there IS order?

What makes you think there isn't? I assure you, if you ask any physicist, they will tell you the universe is extremely ordered.

The universe is balance between the forces of order and chaos. What makes you think it requires an "intelligence" to exist? If it does then...who created that intelligence?

Information has one source: intelligence. Where do you get that from? Information comes from everywhere and everything. "Information" is what a sentient creature gleans from his surroundings or interactions. It doesn't exist with out a mind to take it in.

 

[Lutroo]

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

What makes you think there IS order?

What makes you think there isn't? I assure you, if you ask any physicist, they will tell you the universe is extremely ordered.

The universe is balance between the forces of order and chaos. What makes you think it requires an "intelligence" to exist? If it does then...who created that intelligence?

Information has one source: intelligence. Where do you get that from? Information comes from everywhere and everything. "Information" is what a sentient creature gleans from his surroundings or interactions. It doesn't exist with out a mind to take it in.

When I say information, I'm referring to communication. That is, information can be defined as a set of symbols, or sounds, that convey intent. This also applies to something like DNA. It is a set of symbols that contain specific instructions, and produces changes in living organisms.

 

[emilynghiem]

I th

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

I think I answered you before but on a different thread.

It is perfectly possible and consistent to define God and the Creation as one, with no beginning and no end, but self existent and eternal/infinite.

 

[Coyote]

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

What makes you think there IS order?

What makes you think there isn't? I assure you, if you ask any physicist, they will tell you the universe is extremely ordered.

The universe is balance between the forces of order and chaos. What makes you think it requires an "intelligence" to exist? If it does then...who created that intelligence?

Information has one source: intelligence. Where do you get that from? Information comes from everywhere and everything. "Information" is what a sentient creature gleans from his surroundings or interactions. It doesn't exist with out a mind to take it in.

When I say information, I'm referring to communication. That is, information can be defined as a set of symbols, or sounds, that convey intent. This also applies to something like DNA. It is a set of symbols that contain specific instructions, and produces changes in living organisms.

But here again...DNA is very messy. If there was intelligence behind it, ordering it....why is there so much unused and superflous DNA? We have bits of DNA left over from every major evolutionary transition that never gets turned on because we have no use for it.

 

[Lutroo]

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

What makes you think there IS order?

What makes you think there isn't? I assure you, if you ask any physicist, they will tell you the universe is extremely ordered.

The universe is balance between the forces of order and chaos. What makes you think it requires an "intelligence" to exist? If it does then...who created that intelligence?

Information has one source: intelligence. Where do you get that from? Information comes from everywhere and everything. "Information" is what a sentient creature gleans from his surroundings or interactions. It doesn't exist with out a mind to take it in.

When I say information, I'm referring to communication. That is, information can be defined as a set of symbols, or sounds, that convey intent. This also applies to something like DNA. It is a set of symbols that contain specific instructions, and produces changes in living organisms.

But here again...DNA is very messy. If there was intelligence behind it, ordering it....why is there so much unused and superflous DNA? We have bits of DNA left over from every major evolutionary transition that never gets turned on because we have no use for it.

Your ignorance is showing. Or have you missed the research that has shown that there probably is no such thing as junk DNA. In fact, the latest research shows that there is a second code in our DNA that uses the same codons. In essance, these codons are pulling double duty. If that is not evidence that it was created, what is?

 

[Coyote]

What makes you think there IS order?

What makes you think there isn't? I assure you, if you ask any physicist, they will tell you the universe is extremely ordered.

The universe is balance between the forces of order and chaos. What makes you think it requires an "intelligence" to exist? If it does then...who created that intelligence?

Information has one source: intelligence. Where do you get that from? Information comes from everywhere and everything. "Information" is what a sentient creature gleans from his surroundings or interactions. It doesn't exist with out a mind to take it in.

When I say information, I'm referring to communication. That is, information can be defined as a set of symbols, or sounds, that convey intent. This also applies to something like DNA. It is a set of symbols that contain specific instructions, and produces changes in living organisms.

But here again...DNA is very messy. If there was intelligence behind it, ordering it....why is there so much unused and superflous DNA? We have bits of DNA left over from every major evolutionary transition that never gets turned on because we have no use for it.

Your ignorance is showing. Or have you missed the research that has shown that there probably is no such thing as junk DNA. In fact, the latest research shows that there is a second code in our DNA that uses the same codons. In essance, these codons are pulling double duty. If that is not evidence that it was created, what is?

I wasn't actually thinking of junk DNA, but rather things like we still have the genes for tails or gills, they're just turned off. Essentially - we have a ton of DNA for stuff we no longer use.

 

[Foxfyre]

What makes you think there isn't? I assure you, if you ask any physicist, they will tell you the universe is extremely ordered.

The universe is balance between the forces of order and chaos. What makes you think it requires an "intelligence" to exist? If it does then...who created that intelligence?

Information has one source: intelligence. Where do you get that from? Information comes from everywhere and everything. "Information" is what a sentient creature gleans from his surroundings or interactions. It doesn't exist with out a mind to take it in.

When I say information, I'm referring to communication. That is, information can be defined as a set of symbols, or sounds, that convey intent. This also applies to something like DNA. It is a set of symbols that contain specific instructions, and produces changes in living organisms.

But here again...DNA is very messy. If there was intelligence behind it, ordering it....why is there so much unused and superflous DNA? We have bits of DNA left over from every major evolutionary transition that never gets turned on because we have no use for it.

Your ignorance is showing. Or have you missed the research that has shown that there probably is no such thing as junk DNA. In fact, the latest research shows that there is a second code in our DNA that uses the same codons. In essance, these codons are pulling double duty. If that is not evidence that it was created, what is?

I wasn't actually thinking of junk DNA, but rather things like we still have the genes for tails or gills, they're just turned off. Essentially - we have a ton of DNA for stuff we no longer use.

But can you say with certainty in the evolutionary process that they will not need to be turned on ever again? (Playing devil's advocate just a wee bit here.)

Think how different we human beings are from the first creatures given the designation of 'human'. How different will we be as a species 200,000 years from now?

 

[Lutroo]

What makes you think there isn't? I assure you, if you ask any physicist, they will tell you the universe is extremely ordered.

The universe is balance between the forces of order and chaos. What makes you think it requires an "intelligence" to exist? If it does then...who created that intelligence?

Information has one source: intelligence. Where do you get that from? Information comes from everywhere and everything. "Information" is what a sentient creature gleans from his surroundings or interactions. It doesn't exist with out a mind to take it in.

When I say information, I'm referring to communication. That is, information can be defined as a set of symbols, or sounds, that convey intent. This also applies to something like DNA. It is a set of symbols that contain specific instructions, and produces changes in living organisms.

But here again...DNA is very messy. If there was intelligence behind it, ordering it....why is there so much unused and superflous DNA? We have bits of DNA left over from every major evolutionary transition that never gets turned on because we have no use for it.

Your ignorance is showing. Or have you missed the research that has shown that there probably is no such thing as junk DNA. In fact, the latest research shows that there is a second code in our DNA that uses the same codons. In essance, these codons are pulling double duty. If that is not evidence that it was created, what is?

I wasn't actually thinking of junk DNA, but rather things like we still have the genes for tails or gills, they're just turned off. Essentially - we have a ton of DNA for stuff we no longer use.

How about listing some credible sources for that?

 

[Coyote]

The universe is balance between the forces of order and chaos. What makes you think it requires an "intelligence" to exist? If it does then...who created that intelligence?

Information has one source: intelligence. Where do you get that from? Information comes from everywhere and everything. "Information" is what a sentient creature gleans from his surroundings or interactions. It doesn't exist with out a mind to take it in.

When I say information, I'm referring to communication. That is, information can be defined as a set of symbols, or sounds, that convey intent. This also applies to something like DNA. It is a set of symbols that contain specific instructions, and produces changes in living organisms.

But here again...DNA is very messy. If there was intelligence behind it, ordering it....why is there so much unused and superflous DNA? We have bits of DNA left over from every major evolutionary transition that never gets turned on because we have no use for it.

Your ignorance is showing. Or have you missed the research that has shown that there probably is no such thing as junk DNA. In fact, the latest research shows that there is a second code in our DNA that uses the same codons. In essance, these codons are pulling double duty. If that is not evidence that it was created, what is?

I wasn't actually thinking of junk DNA, but rather things like we still have the genes for tails or gills, they're just turned off. Essentially - we have a ton of DNA for stuff we no longer use.

But can you say with certainty in the evolutionary process that they will not need to be turned on ever again? (Playing devil's advocate just a wee bit here.)

Nope, anything is possible - however, it represents an accumulation of leftovers from past lives rather than an orderly approach.

Think how different we human beings are from the first creatures given the designation of 'human'. How different will we be as a species 200,000 years from now?

Indeed...ever seen this book? It's a fascinating speculation on future evolution Introduction, Ch_01 Evolution

We hold the codes within us for every past incarnation...a world within our bodies.

 

[Lutroo]

The universe is balance between the forces of order and chaos. What makes you think it requires an "intelligence" to exist? If it does then...who created that intelligence?

Information has one source: intelligence. Where do you get that from? Information comes from everywhere and everything. "Information" is what a sentient creature gleans from his surroundings or interactions. It doesn't exist with out a mind to take it in.

When I say information, I'm referring to communication. That is, information can be defined as a set of symbols, or sounds, that convey intent. This also applies to something like DNA. It is a set of symbols that contain specific instructions, and produces changes in living organisms.

But here again...DNA is very messy. If there was intelligence behind it, ordering it....why is there so much unused and superflous DNA? We have bits of DNA left over from every major evolutionary transition that never gets turned on because we have no use for it.

Your ignorance is showing. Or have you missed the research that has shown that there probably is no such thing as junk DNA. In fact, the latest research shows that there is a second code in our DNA that uses the same codons. In essance, these codons are pulling double duty. If that is not evidence that it was created, what is?

I wasn't actually thinking of junk DNA, but rather things like we still have the genes for tails or gills, they're just turned off. Essentially - we have a ton of DNA for stuff we no longer use.

But can you say with certainty in the evolutionary process that they will not need to be turned on ever again? (Playing devil's advocate just a wee bit here.)

Think how different we human beings are from the first creatures given the designation of 'human'. How different will we be as a species 200,000 years from now?

The more we learn about DNA, the clearer it becomes that there is no leftover, or junk, DNA. Just because we don't know what it does, doesn't mean it's useless. There is also the second code found in our DNA. This, by itself, precludes any possibility of DNA being the result of natural processes.

 

[Foxfyre]

When I say information, I'm referring to communication. That is, information can be defined as a set of symbols, or sounds, that convey intent. This also applies to something like DNA. It is a set of symbols that contain specific instructions, and produces changes in living organisms.

But here again...DNA is very messy. If there was intelligence behind it, ordering it....why is there so much unused and superflous DNA? We have bits of DNA left over from every major evolutionary transition that never gets turned on because we have no use for it.

Your ignorance is showing. Or have you missed the research that has shown that there probably is no such thing as junk DNA. In fact, the latest research shows that there is a second code in our DNA that uses the same codons. In essance, these codons are pulling double duty. If that is not evidence that it was created, what is?

I wasn't actually thinking of junk DNA, but rather things like we still have the genes for tails or gills, they're just turned off. Essentially - we have a ton of DNA for stuff we no longer use.

But can you say with certainty in the evolutionary process that they will not need to be turned on ever again? (Playing devil's advocate just a wee bit here.)

Nope, anything is possible - however, it represents an accumulation of leftovers from past lives rather than an orderly approach.

Think how different we human beings are from the first creatures given the designation of 'human'. How different will we be as a species 200,000 years from now?

Indeed...ever seen this book? It's a fascinating speculation on future evolution Introduction, Ch_01 Evolution

We hold the codes within us for every past incarnation...a world within our bodies.

I don't have a quarrel with your take on it though I think there are too many unexplained gaps in our own scientific knowledge to be certain what is 'orderly' and what is not when it comes to nature and science.

As a believer in a sentient divine being of some sort being part of the equation, I have to believe 'he' knows a heck of a lot more than all the knowledge of humankind for all time combined. So we cannot be certain we have much (or anything) right about the whole plan or scheme of things. Who among us 50 years ago expected the world to be the way it is now? And the advances in scientific knowledge and technology in that same time are so stunning as to almost be overwhelming, and yet we have almost surely barely scratched the surface.

So I'll leave it to God to determine what is an is not orderly. I'll believe our ultimate destiny is going to be pretty wonderful and meanwhile, we're all just along for the ride doing the best that we can as we go through it.

 

[Coyote]

The universe is balance between the forces of order and chaos. What makes you think it requires an "intelligence" to exist? If it does then...who created that intelligence?

Information has one source: intelligence. Where do you get that from? Information comes from everywhere and everything. "Information" is what a sentient creature gleans from his surroundings or interactions. It doesn't exist with out a mind to take it in.

When I say information, I'm referring to communication. That is, information can be defined as a set of symbols, or sounds, that convey intent. This also applies to something like DNA. It is a set of symbols that contain specific instructions, and produces changes in living organisms.

But here again...DNA is very messy. If there was intelligence behind it, ordering it....why is there so much unused and superflous DNA? We have bits of DNA left over from every major evolutionary transition that never gets turned on because we have no use for it.

Your ignorance is showing. Or have you missed the research that has shown that there probably is no such thing as junk DNA. In fact, the latest research shows that there is a second code in our DNA that uses the same codons. In essance, these codons are pulling double duty. If that is not evidence that it was created, what is?

I wasn't actually thinking of junk DNA, but rather things like we still have the genes for tails or gills, they're just turned off. Essentially - we have a ton of DNA for stuff we no longer use.

How about listing some credible sources for that?

Atavistic traits: Atavism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, developmental traits...One example might be gill slits. There isn't a specific gene that is just for building gills, instead there is a basic set of genes that regulate the development of a generic vertebrate body plan. Transcription factors switch on specific genes that determine how a cell specializes. The ultimate trajectory of development is going to be determined by when and where these transcription factors are expressed, which genes they turn on and off, at what developmental intervals and in what tissues. It's like a genetic continuum, is how I understand it. We have the coding for gills, the genes are just as functional - but in human development - the structures that would become gills in a fish, became the pharynx and other structures.

 

[Coyote]

When I say information, I'm referring to communication. That is, information can be defined as a set of symbols, or sounds, that convey intent. This also applies to something like DNA. It is a set of symbols that contain specific instructions, and produces changes in living organisms.

But here again...DNA is very messy. If there was intelligence behind it, ordering it....why is there so much unused and superflous DNA? We have bits of DNA left over from every major evolutionary transition that never gets turned on because we have no use for it.

Your ignorance is showing. Or have you missed the research that has shown that there probably is no such thing as junk DNA. In fact, the latest research shows that there is a second code in our DNA that uses the same codons. In essance, these codons are pulling double duty. If that is not evidence that it was created, what is?

I wasn't actually thinking of junk DNA, but rather things like we still have the genes for tails or gills, they're just turned off. Essentially - we have a ton of DNA for stuff we no longer use.

But can you say with certainty in the evolutionary process that they will not need to be turned on ever again? (Playing devil's advocate just a wee bit here.)

Think how different we human beings are from the first creatures given the designation of 'human'. How different will we be as a species 200,000 years from now?

The more we learn about DNA, the clearer it becomes that there is no leftover, or junk, DNA. Just because we don't know what it does, doesn't mean it's useless. There is also the second code found in our DNA. This, by itself, precludes any possibility of DNA being the result of natural processes.

That's always possible - there is certainly a lot we do not know. But it's equally possible that we hold all our past selves within our dna, it's just no longer switched on.

 

[zaangalewa]

Maybe our Universe isn't orderly.
Some rules exist and because of those rules certain things happen as a result. You know like the speed of light etc. But that doesn't mean someone created those rules, they just are.

Why?

 

[zaangalewa]

Maybe our Universe isn't orderly.
Some rules exist and because of those rules certain things happen as a result. You know like the speed of light etc. But that doesn't mean someone created those rules, they just are.

If the universe was not orderly, then science would not exist. The scientific method relies on repeatable experiments. Without a ordered universe, this would not be possible.

Science proves truths through mathematical equations...

Natural science proves with predictions in experiments ("If I will do so, then this will happen") - not with mathematical equations. Mathematics helps only to find such quantifyable, measurable "prophecies". But mathematics itselve is not a natural science. Mathematics creates theories about structures without any form of reality. Just for fun for example mathematicians are doing something and find interesting structures. But suddenly we are able to find structures of mathematics in the reality. How is this possible?

 

[Moonglow]

Maybe our Universe isn't orderly.
Some rules exist and because of those rules certain things happen as a result. You know like the speed of light etc. But that doesn't mean someone created those rules, they just are.

If the universe was not orderly, then science would not exist. The scientific method relies on repeatable experiments. Without a ordered universe, this would not be possible.

Science proves truths through mathematical equations...

Natural science proves with predictions in experiments ("If I will do so, then this will happen") - not with mathematical equations. Mathematics helps only to find such quantifyable, measurbale prophecies. But mathematics itselve is not a science.

Math is used as a tool to postulate truths..

 

[Lutroo]

Maybe our Universe isn't orderly.
Some rules exist and because of those rules certain things happen as a result. You know like the speed of light etc. But that doesn't mean someone created those rules, they just are.

If the universe was not orderly, then science would not exist. The scientific method relies on repeatable experiments. Without a ordered universe, this would not be possible.

Science proves truths through mathematical equations...

Natural science proves with predictions in experiments ("If I will do so, then this will happen") - not with mathematical equations. Mathematics helps only to find such quantifyable, measurable "prophecies". But mathematics itselve is not a natural science. Mathematics creates theories about structures without any form of reality. Just for fun for example mathematicians are doing something and find interesting structures. But suddenly we are able to find structures of mathematics in the reality. How is this possible?

And how does one even explain the existence of mathematics without a Creator? It is not something that we invented. We simply discovered it.

 

[zaangalewa]

Simple question, really. Why do so many people have a problem with it? Think about it. Order cannot come from chaos. At least not in this universe. Every bit of scientific knowledge we possess says it just can't happen. The universe is extremely ordered. It also contains vast amounts of information. Information has one source. Intelligence. Earthly intelligence is also the result of information. Can you say catch 22? This proves that information has a source that is outside this universe. What is this source? I believe that it is God. Can you come up with any other explanation?

Who ever said the universe was ordered?

It's a pretty chaotic place

The modern expression of chaos is orderly on a higher dimension of order - in sense also of a non-linear self-reflexivity and self-similarity. It's normally not the chaos of senseless death and destruction any longer someone thinks about, if someone uses the word "chaos" today. The Earth moves around the sun also in a form of this modern expression "chaos" since more than 4.5 billion years, while never the Earth turned exactly 2 times in the same way around the sun.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Maybe our Universe isn't orderly.
Some rules exist and because of those rules certain things happen as a result. You know like the speed of light etc. But that doesn't mean someone created those rules, they just are.

If the universe was not orderly, then science would not exist. The scientific method relies on repeatable experiments. Without a ordered universe, this would not be possible.

Science proves truths through mathematical equations...

Natural science proves with predictions in experiments ("If I will do so, then this will happen") - not with mathematical equations. Mathematics helps only to find such quantifyable, measurable "prophecies". But mathematics itselve is not a natural science. Mathematics creates theories about structures without any form of reality. Just for fun for example mathematicians are doing something and find interesting structures. But suddenly we are able to find structures of mathematics in the reality. How is this possible?

And how does one even explain the existence of mathematics without a Creator? It is not something that we invented. We simply discovered it.

And you still haven’t discovered the fact that this line of ‘reasoning’ fails as an appeal to ignorance fallacy.