How do you explain a ordered universe without a Creator?

[Lutroo]

I have yet to see an explanation for how the universe could exist without a Creator. Just saying.

Nothing that science understands about the "Big Bang" implies a need for your gawds or anyone else's gawds.

What explanation can you provide to suggest that your gawds had a magic "waving of hand" moment to "poof" existence?

Need I remind you that I am the one who asked for an explanation? No one has provided one. Why is that? It's because no one knows. That is a simple fact. Atheists believe in a naturalistic origin for the universe. This belief is based on faith, just as my belief in God is based on faith. Who are you to say that I am wrong?

Need I remind you that special pleading to a "God of the gaps" fallacy is pointless and time wasting?

It may come as a shock to you but there is no requirement for atheism to accept a natural cause for the existence of the universe. There is no requirement for faith to accept a naturally occurring universe.

There is, however, a typical need for religious dogma that defines those who insist one or more partisan gawds magically poofed all of existence.

And yet no one has provided an answer to my question. This isn't about who is correct. I'm simply asking for an explanation for the existence of the universe other than a Creator. Do you have one?

Sure. It's what science calls the Big Bang.

Oh yes. The mythical big bang. You do know that no one saw it happen, right? It's nothing more than a theory. Furthermore, the math for this theory breaks down before they reach the actual event itself. Try again.

 

[Mudda]

I have yet to see an explanation for how the universe could exist without a Creator. Just saying.

I have yet to see an explanation for how a creator could exist without a creator. Just saying.

 

[Mudda]

Nothing that science understands about the "Big Bang" implies a need for your gawds or anyone else's gawds.

What explanation can you provide to suggest that your gawds had a magic "waving of hand" moment to "poof" existence?

Need I remind you that I am the one who asked for an explanation? No one has provided one. Why is that? It's because no one knows. That is a simple fact. Atheists believe in a naturalistic origin for the universe. This belief is based on faith, just as my belief in God is based on faith. Who are you to say that I am wrong?

Need I remind you that special pleading to a "God of the gaps" fallacy is pointless and time wasting?

It may come as a shock to you but there is no requirement for atheism to accept a natural cause for the existence of the universe. There is no requirement for faith to accept a naturally occurring universe.

There is, however, a typical need for religious dogma that defines those who insist one or more partisan gawds magically poofed all of existence.

And yet no one has provided an answer to my question. This isn't about who is correct. I'm simply asking for an explanation for the existence of the universe other than a Creator. Do you have one?

Sure. It's what science calls the Big Bang.

Oh yes. The mythical big bang. You do know that no one saw it happen, right? It's nothing more than a theory. Furthermore, the math for this theory breaks down before they reach the actual event itself. Try again.

Did you know that no one saw your God make the universe? It's no more than a theory. And this theory breaks down when you ask why a God would make deformed and retarded babies?

 

[edthecynic]

Since the universe (or multiverse) is created energy cannot be destroyed and energy cannot be created. Energy is always only able to be transformed. "Before" nothing was existing.

Please prove there was a "before energy existed."

 

[edthecynic]

What most people fail to realize is that God, by definition, is above creation. He is not subject to the laws of the universe. He created it, after all. Why do atheists have a problem with an eternal God, but not an eternal universe?

And that, by definition, is not a proof, it is just a pontification.

Question for you. Do you believe what scientists say about energy having always existed?

Scientists PROVED it with a repeatable experiment.

 

[Lutroo]

What most people fail to realize is that God, by definition, is above creation. He is not subject to the laws of the universe. He created it, after all. Why do atheists have a problem with an eternal God, but not an eternal universe?

And that, by definition, is not a proof, it is just a pontification.

Question for you. Do you believe what scientists say about energy having always existed?

Scientists PROVED it with a repeatable experiment.

I trust that you do not expect me to take your word for it. How about a source to go along with that claim?

 

[Hollie]

Nothing that science understands about the "Big Bang" implies a need for your gawds or anyone else's gawds.

What explanation can you provide to suggest that your gawds had a magic "waving of hand" moment to "poof" existence?

Need I remind you that I am the one who asked for an explanation? No one has provided one. Why is that? It's because no one knows. That is a simple fact. Atheists believe in a naturalistic origin for the universe. This belief is based on faith, just as my belief in God is based on faith. Who are you to say that I am wrong?

Need I remind you that special pleading to a "God of the gaps" fallacy is pointless and time wasting?

It may come as a shock to you but there is no requirement for atheism to accept a natural cause for the existence of the universe. There is no requirement for faith to accept a naturally occurring universe.

There is, however, a typical need for religious dogma that defines those who insist one or more partisan gawds magically poofed all of existence.

And yet no one has provided an answer to my question. This isn't about who is correct. I'm simply asking for an explanation for the existence of the universe other than a Creator. Do you have one?

Sure. It's what science calls the Big Bang.

Oh yes. The mythical big bang. You do know that no one saw it happen, right? It's nothing more than a theory. Furthermore, the math for this theory breaks down before they reach the actual event itself. Try again.

"No one saw it happen". That's a curious statement from a religious fundie as it applies to most all religious claims.

You might be interested to learn that a major disruption in matter and energy is what caused the expansion of the universe. The term "Big Bang" was coined to illustrate the event.

Classical laws of physics...such as Conservation of Energy only came into being after Planck time...which is 10exp-43 seconds after the big bang. Your claim that "the math breaks down" is nonsense. Before that time, due to the immense density of the universe, science has no firm idea what "laws" prevailed. We only know that they begat the laws of physics as we know them today.

Nothing known to science accounts for magic, supernatural intervention or the hand of your gods (or other, more powerful gods), snapping their eternal digits and magically creating all of existence.

Now would be the appropriate time to post your General Theory of Supermagical Creation.

You have a workable theory, right? I'm sure the National Science Foundation would be delighted to peer review your data. You have data, right?

 

[Lutroo]

Need I remind you that I am the one who asked for an explanation? No one has provided one. Why is that? It's because no one knows. That is a simple fact. Atheists believe in a naturalistic origin for the universe. This belief is based on faith, just as my belief in God is based on faith. Who are you to say that I am wrong?

Need I remind you that special pleading to a "God of the gaps" fallacy is pointless and time wasting?

It may come as a shock to you but there is no requirement for atheism to accept a natural cause for the existence of the universe. There is no requirement for faith to accept a naturally occurring universe.

There is, however, a typical need for religious dogma that defines those who insist one or more partisan gawds magically poofed all of existence.

And yet no one has provided an answer to my question. This isn't about who is correct. I'm simply asking for an explanation for the existence of the universe other than a Creator. Do you have one?

Sure. It's what science calls the Big Bang.

Oh yes. The mythical big bang. You do know that no one saw it happen, right? It's nothing more than a theory. Furthermore, the math for this theory breaks down before they reach the actual event itself. Try again.

"No one saw it happen". That's a curious statement from a religious fundie as it applies to most all religious claims.

You might be interested to learn that a major disruption in matter and energy is what caused the expansion of the universe. The term "Big Bang" was coined to illustrate the event.

Classical laws of physics...such as Conservation of Energy only came into being after Planck time...which is 10exp-43 seconds after the big bang. Your claim that "the math breaks down" is nonsense. Before that time, due to the immense density of the universe, science has no firm idea what "laws" prevailed. We only know that they begat the laws of physics as we know them today.

Nothing known to science accounts for magic, supernatural intervention or the hand of your gods (or other, more powerful gods), snapping their eternal digits and magically creating all of existence.

Now would be the appropriate time to post your General Theory of Supermagical Creation.

You have a workable theory, right? I'm sure the National Science Foundation would be delighted to peer review your data. You have data, right?

Assuming the big bang theory is true, scientists don't have a clue what caused it. Who's to say that God didn't cause the big bang? And where did matter and energy come from? Again, scientists haven't got a clue. How about the physical constants? Why do they even exist? Gee. Scientists don't know that either. In fact, scientists do not know anything about why the universe exists, or how it happened.

 

[Hollie]

Need I remind you that special pleading to a "God of the gaps" fallacy is pointless and time wasting?

It may come as a shock to you but there is no requirement for atheism to accept a natural cause for the existence of the universe. There is no requirement for faith to accept a naturally occurring universe.

There is, however, a typical need for religious dogma that defines those who insist one or more partisan gawds magically poofed all of existence.

And yet no one has provided an answer to my question. This isn't about who is correct. I'm simply asking for an explanation for the existence of the universe other than a Creator. Do you have one?

Sure. It's what science calls the Big Bang.

Oh yes. The mythical big bang. You do know that no one saw it happen, right? It's nothing more than a theory. Furthermore, the math for this theory breaks down before they reach the actual event itself. Try again.

"No one saw it happen". That's a curious statement from a religious fundie as it applies to most all religious claims.

You might be interested to learn that a major disruption in matter and energy is what caused the expansion of the universe. The term "Big Bang" was coined to illustrate the event.

Classical laws of physics...such as Conservation of Energy only came into being after Planck time...which is 10exp-43 seconds after the big bang. Your claim that "the math breaks down" is nonsense. Before that time, due to the immense density of the universe, science has no firm idea what "laws" prevailed. We only know that they begat the laws of physics as we know them today.

Nothing known to science accounts for magic, supernatural intervention or the hand of your gods (or other, more powerful gods), snapping their eternal digits and magically creating all of existence.

Now would be the appropriate time to post your General Theory of Supermagical Creation.

You have a workable theory, right? I'm sure the National Science Foundation would be delighted to peer review your data. You have data, right?

Assuming the big bang theory is true, scientists don't have a clue what caused it. Who's to say that God didn't cause the big bang? And where did matter and energy come from? Again, scientists haven't got a clue. How about the physical constants? Why do they even exist? Gee. Scientists don't know that either. In fact, scientists do not know anything about why the universe exists, or how it happened.

Which gawds snapped their magical digits and caused the Big Bang?

Why did the gawds need to make such an old universe when they could have made the universe very young and flat, just as it's represented in the various bibles. Why are the bibles wrong?

 

[Lutroo]

And yet no one has provided an answer to my question. This isn't about who is correct. I'm simply asking for an explanation for the existence of the universe other than a Creator. Do you have one?

Sure. It's what science calls the Big Bang.

Oh yes. The mythical big bang. You do know that no one saw it happen, right? It's nothing more than a theory. Furthermore, the math for this theory breaks down before they reach the actual event itself. Try again.

"No one saw it happen". That's a curious statement from a religious fundie as it applies to most all religious claims.

You might be interested to learn that a major disruption in matter and energy is what caused the expansion of the universe. The term "Big Bang" was coined to illustrate the event.

Classical laws of physics...such as Conservation of Energy only came into being after Planck time...which is 10exp-43 seconds after the big bang. Your claim that "the math breaks down" is nonsense. Before that time, due to the immense density of the universe, science has no firm idea what "laws" prevailed. We only know that they begat the laws of physics as we know them today.

Nothing known to science accounts for magic, supernatural intervention or the hand of your gods (or other, more powerful gods), snapping their eternal digits and magically creating all of existence.

Now would be the appropriate time to post your General Theory of Supermagical Creation.

You have a workable theory, right? I'm sure the National Science Foundation would be delighted to peer review your data. You have data, right?

Assuming the big bang theory is true, scientists don't have a clue what caused it. Who's to say that God didn't cause the big bang? And where did matter and energy come from? Again, scientists haven't got a clue. How about the physical constants? Why do they even exist? Gee. Scientists don't know that either. In fact, scientists do not know anything about why the universe exists, or how it happened.

Which gawds snapped their magical digits and caused the Big Bang?

Why did the gawds need to make such an old universe when they could have made the universe very young and flat, just as it's represented in the various bibles. Why are the bibles wrong?

Still avoiding the question, I see. All you do is attack. How about giving us an explanation of why and how the universe exists, if it wasn't Created?

 

[edthecynic]

What most people fail to realize is that God, by definition, is above creation. He is not subject to the laws of the universe. He created it, after all. Why do atheists have a problem with an eternal God, but not an eternal universe?

And that, by definition, is not a proof, it is just a pontification.

Question for you. Do you believe what scientists say about energy having always existed?

Scientists PROVED it with a repeatable experiment.

I trust that you do not expect me to take your word for it. How about a source to go along with that claim?

It is called the First Law Of Thermodynamics, and it is a LAW precisely because it was proven. James Prescott Joule was the scientist who proved the Law, though he was not the first to discover the Law. You probably have a surge protector for your computer or AV equipment rated in "joules" named after him for his great accomplishment. The fact that you did not know the FLoT was proven shows you know nothing about science since the FLoT is one of the most basic principles in all of science!

 

[Hollie]

Sure. It's what science calls the Big Bang.

Oh yes. The mythical big bang. You do know that no one saw it happen, right? It's nothing more than a theory. Furthermore, the math for this theory breaks down before they reach the actual event itself. Try again.

"No one saw it happen". That's a curious statement from a religious fundie as it applies to most all religious claims.

You might be interested to learn that a major disruption in matter and energy is what caused the expansion of the universe. The term "Big Bang" was coined to illustrate the event.

Classical laws of physics...such as Conservation of Energy only came into being after Planck time...which is 10exp-43 seconds after the big bang. Your claim that "the math breaks down" is nonsense. Before that time, due to the immense density of the universe, science has no firm idea what "laws" prevailed. We only know that they begat the laws of physics as we know them today.

Nothing known to science accounts for magic, supernatural intervention or the hand of your gods (or other, more powerful gods), snapping their eternal digits and magically creating all of existence.

Now would be the appropriate time to post your General Theory of Supermagical Creation.

You have a workable theory, right? I'm sure the National Science Foundation would be delighted to peer review your data. You have data, right?

Assuming the big bang theory is true, scientists don't have a clue what caused it. Who's to say that God didn't cause the big bang? And where did matter and energy come from? Again, scientists haven't got a clue. How about the physical constants? Why do they even exist? Gee. Scientists don't know that either. In fact, scientists do not know anything about why the universe exists, or how it happened.

Which gawds snapped their magical digits and caused the Big Bang?

Why did the gawds need to make such an old universe when they could have made the universe very young and flat, just as it's represented in the various bibles. Why are the bibles wrong?

Still avoiding the question, I see. All you do is attack. How about giving us an explanation of why and how the universe exists, if it wasn't Created?

Actually, I'm still waiting for you to present your General Theory of Supermagical Creation.

This should be interesting. Remember to present your data in a form that can be presented to.... oh, I don't know..... the journal Nature for peer review.

Thanks.

 

[forkup]

Sure. It's what science calls the Big Bang.

Oh yes. The mythical big bang. You do know that no one saw it happen, right? It's nothing more than a theory. Furthermore, the math for this theory breaks down before they reach the actual event itself. Try again.

"No one saw it happen". That's a curious statement from a religious fundie as it applies to most all religious claims.

You might be interested to learn that a major disruption in matter and energy is what caused the expansion of the universe. The term "Big Bang" was coined to illustrate the event.

Classical laws of physics...such as Conservation of Energy only came into being after Planck time...which is 10exp-43 seconds after the big bang. Your claim that "the math breaks down" is nonsense. Before that time, due to the immense density of the universe, science has no firm idea what "laws" prevailed. We only know that they begat the laws of physics as we know them today.

Nothing known to science accounts for magic, supernatural intervention or the hand of your gods (or other, more powerful gods), snapping their eternal digits and magically creating all of existence.

Now would be the appropriate time to post your General Theory of Supermagical Creation.

You have a workable theory, right? I'm sure the National Science Foundation would be delighted to peer review your data. You have data, right?

Assuming the big bang theory is true, scientists don't have a clue what caused it. Who's to say that God didn't cause the big bang? And where did matter and energy come from? Again, scientists haven't got a clue. How about the physical constants? Why do they even exist? Gee. Scientists don't know that either. In fact, scientists do not know anything about why the universe exists, or how it happened.

Which gawds snapped their magical digits and caused the Big Bang?

Why did the gawds need to make such an old universe when they could have made the universe very young and flat, just as it's represented in the various bibles. Why are the bibles wrong?

Still avoiding the question, I see. All you do is attack. How about giving us an explanation of why and how the universe exists, if it wasn't Created?

I have an answer. We don't know. Like we didn't know at a time. What made the earth spin, made apples fall, what stars are, how the human body worked, what computers are."I don't know" is where science starts. Religion works differently. It sais "we know everything." The whole reason we are having these discussions is that most if not all of these answers religion said it had, are proven wrong.

 

[Hollie]

Sure. It's what science calls the Big Bang.

Oh yes. The mythical big bang. You do know that no one saw it happen, right? It's nothing more than a theory. Furthermore, the math for this theory breaks down before they reach the actual event itself. Try again.

"No one saw it happen". That's a curious statement from a religious fundie as it applies to most all religious claims.

You might be interested to learn that a major disruption in matter and energy is what caused the expansion of the universe. The term "Big Bang" was coined to illustrate the event.

Classical laws of physics...such as Conservation of Energy only came into being after Planck time...which is 10exp-43 seconds after the big bang. Your claim that "the math breaks down" is nonsense. Before that time, due to the immense density of the universe, science has no firm idea what "laws" prevailed. We only know that they begat the laws of physics as we know them today.

Nothing known to science accounts for magic, supernatural intervention or the hand of your gods (or other, more powerful gods), snapping their eternal digits and magically creating all of existence.

Now would be the appropriate time to post your General Theory of Supermagical Creation.

You have a workable theory, right? I'm sure the National Science Foundation would be delighted to peer review your data. You have data, right?

Assuming the big bang theory is true, scientists don't have a clue what caused it. Who's to say that God didn't cause the big bang? And where did matter and energy come from? Again, scientists haven't got a clue. How about the physical constants? Why do they even exist? Gee. Scientists don't know that either. In fact, scientists do not know anything about why the universe exists, or how it happened.

Which gawds snapped their magical digits and caused the Big Bang?

Why did the gawds need to make such an old universe when they could have made the universe very young and flat, just as it's represented in the various bibles. Why are the bibles wrong?

Still avoiding the question, I see. All you do is attack. How about giving us an explanation of why and how the universe exists, if it wasn't Created?

No one is attacking you. Martyr Syndrome?

It's a simple question. Why do you refuse to support your argument for gods, magic and supernaturalism as the mechanisms that produced the universe?

Make a case for your gods. Explain to us how they created the universe.


It is science that has given us a first, but incomplete understanding of the cosmos. As with so much of your ignorant and religiously based worldview that is corrupted by fear and superstition, you cant even define what you mean with slogans such as "created universe". You really need to look past Henry Morris and religious cranks / charlatans for your science data. The cosmos contains many pockets and eddies of safe havens its more general violence and chaos. Most of human misperception on that issue is entirely one of scale. We happen to exist in one of those eddies... the localized order we experience is a precondition for our very existence. But it is not characteristic of the universe.

 

[Divine Wind]

Maybe our Universe isn't orderly.
Some rules exist and because of those rules certain things happen as a result. You know like the speed of light etc. But that doesn't mean someone created those rules, they just are.

If the universe was not orderly, then science would not exist. The scientific method relies on repeatable experiments. Without a ordered universe, this would not be possible.

Science proves truths through mathematical equations...

Natural science proves with predictions in experiments ("If I will do so, then this will happen") - not with mathematical equations. Mathematics helps only to find such quantifyable, measurbale prophecies. But mathematics itselve is not a science.

Math is used as a tool to postulate truths..

Agreed math is a tool and it is true. 2 +2 = 4 regardless of what someone believes.

Whether or not "math" is a science is semantics. The fact remains we have brains and the abilitey to reason. The Universe is ordered in that it follows rules even if those rules lead to entropy, which is disorder/chaos.
Anything that can be predicted is "order" and follows a rule, even if that rule isn't understood or even known.

If anyone here knows of an instance of where they fell off a curb and fell UP, please let me know.

 

[Divine Wind]

I have an answer. We don't know. Like we didn't know at a time. What made the earth spin, made apples fall, what stars are, how the human body worked, what computers are."I don't know" is where science starts. Religion works differently. It sais "we know everything." The whole reason we are having these discussions is that most if not all of these answers religion said it had, are proven wrong.

Agreed on "we don't know". We don't know a lot of things as a species.

We do know what made the Earth spin; a combination of gravity and angular momentum. Ever wonder why all the planets and the Sun spin the same way?

Ask Newton about apples. He had a great answer!

As for religion, that's not science, that's faith. Now, instead of lumping all religion, spirituality or faith into one pot, why not take a more scientific look? Isn't there a difference between feeling all things have a spiritual connection with each other and some dictum against eating hot dogs or who one can have an intimate relation? One is an exploration, the other is a dictation aka dogma.....which can be secular as the Democrats have proved.

 

[edthecynic]

Ever wonder why all the planets and the Sun spin the same way?

Doesn't Venus spin the opposite direction?
Why yes, yes it does.

 

[Lutroo]

Ever wonder why all the planets and the Sun spin the same way?

Doesn't Venus spin the opposite direction?
Why yes, yes it does.

Actually, there are about a dozed planets and moons that spin in the wrong direction. Why is that?

 

[Divine Wind]

Ever wonder why all the planets and the Sun spin the same way?

Doesn't Venus spin the opposite direction?
Why yes, yes it does.

Also predictable and explained by reason aka science:

Rotation of Venus - Universe Today
So why is the rotation of Venus backwards? Astronomers think that Venus was impacted by another large planet early in its history, billions of years ago. The combined momentum between the two objects averaged out to the current rotational speed and direction.

Consider the relationship of the Earth and Moon, the closest thing to a binary planet we have here.

 

[Divine Wind]

Actually, there are about a dozed planets and moons that spin in the wrong direction. Why is that?

Which ones? All still deal with angular momentum.

Anyone here play pool and doesn't understand the concept?