How we know Hitler was right wing.

[Darkwind]

Prior coming to this board, I had never heard anyone suggest Hitler was anything but right wing. This may be something to do with living in Europe where the awareness of fascism is so very high because it occured here, or maybe it's something our education system focuses on. Or maybe coincidence.

Either way, recently I've noticed two posters recently insist Hitler was left wing....and even liberal.

Here is SSDD:

Hitler's government was called right wing by communists and socialists of the time, but his governemnt was still socialist. It consisted of a large and powerful central authority which is, by definition, not a conservative, or classically lberal government

Right wing and left wing are two wings of the same house and the house is socialism.

In cases like this, I am not sure facts have a great deal of impact, but maybe it is interesting to discuss some of the features of Fascism anyway.

Let's start with some quotes from Hitler:

"The main plank in the Nationalist Socialist program is to abolish the liberalistic concept of the individual and the Marxist concept of humanity and to substitute for them the folk community, rooted in the soil and bound together by the bond of its common blood."

"The German state is gravely attacked by Marxism."

"In the years 1913 and 1914, I… expressed the conviction that the question of the future of the German nation was the question of destroying Marxism."

"In the economic sphere Communism is analogous to democracy in the political sphere."

"The Marxists will march with democracy until they succeed in indirectly obtaining for their criminal aims the support of even the national intellectual world, destined by them for extinction."

"Marxism itself systematically plans to hand the world over to the Jews."

"The Jewish doctrine of Marxism rejects the aristocratic principle of Nature and replaces the eternal privilege of power and strength by the mass of numbers and their dead weight."

Myth: Hitler was a leftist

You have made the same mistake that most people who are left of center make when someone of a past era speaks of liberalism. When Hitler spoke of liberalistic concept, he was speaking specifically of the notion of Classic Liberalism. It bears absolutely no resemblance to the liberalism of today, or to the progressives of today. In classic liberalism, the beliefs were that the individual had the right to liberty and freedom FROM a tyrannical government, be that government Aristocratic, Marxist, or Fascist.

The central tenant of fascism economically is that businesses remain in the hands of the private sector, but were explicitly told how they could be run.

Sound familiar to you at all?

In addition to the massively regulated economy that fascists believed in (again, heavily regulated, sound famiiar?) the fascists believed in an all centralized government that ran every aspect of any country that the ideology flourished in.

Moving on...

The notion that Marxists are for the workers is so laughable that I nearly fell off My chair. That is a claim made that is not found in evidence. Marxists, much like their brethren Communists, speak a good game, but in the end, it is not the workers or the lower classes that benefit from these ideologies because like all such things, the power and money gravitates to the top and is used to abuse the liberty and freedom of the ordinary citizen.

 

[Saigon]

I'm curious, what do you view as the major distinctions between Hitler and Stalin?

Most are listed in the OP, but the key ones are definitely the fact that Hitler promoted capitalism, while Stalin fought against it. Hitler promoted a class system based on Germany's past - Stalin promoted a classless society based on the idea of a utopian future.

 

[Agit8r]

The idea that the left and right ideologies arc back into a circle where both extremes are totalitarian makes no sense to me. How does a political philosophy that espouses less gov't intervention end up as a totalitarian state instead of anarchy at it's extreme fringe?

Augusto Pinochet

 

[Saigon]

To those who are saying 'What does it matter if a tyrant is left or right' - I agree, but it depends on who you are.

Left wing and right wing regimes have very different enemies. Stalin targeted the rich, the aristocrats, the land owners and investors. Those groups all benefitted under Hitler's rule.

Hitler targeted racial minorities and outsiders - groups who occasionally benefited under the rule of outsiders like Stalin, Caucescu or Milosevic.

Yeah, Stalin supported racial minorities - just ask the Kulaks...

Keep in mind that Stalin was from a racial minority himself - but there were many other people from Armenia, Azerbaijan and the Baltic states in the Politburo during the Stalin years.

As a piece of trivia, did you know that the name of the Mig planes is, like the inventor, Armenian?

Stalin obviously hated Jews and a few other groups did not fare well (e.g. Tatars), but his policy on race was directly opposite to that of Fascism.

 

[Saigon]

Does being limited government to an extreme lead to Fascism? No

Then fascism sure as heck isn't right wing.

The concept of small government is by no means the basis of right-wing government. It's very much an American concept, and one almost never spoken about in other conservative countries.

I am sure you can also think of a half dozen clearly Conservative governments that had nothing at all to say about small government - such as Pinochet, Cristiani, Rios Montte, Muldoon or even someone like Sakorzy.

 

[Saigon]

You have either more Government or less Government... There is no circle. A dictator on the right and a dictator on the left, it makes no fucking sense.

That is becuse you assume right wing = small government. It doesn't. (Explained above)

I don't agree with the circle model myself - a horseshoe is a much more used model.

 

[Agit8r]

To those who are saying 'What does it matter if a tyrant is left or right' - I agree, but it depends on who you are.

Left wing and right wing regimes have very different enemies. Stalin targeted the rich, the aristocrats, the land owners and investors. Those groups all benefitted under Hitler's rule.

Hitler targeted racial minorities and outsiders - groups who occasionally benefited under the rule of outsiders like Stalin, Caucescu or Milosevic.

Yeah, Stalin supported racial minorities - just ask the Kulaks...

Actually, Kulaks were a class, not an ethnicity

 

[Avatar4321]

Does being limited government to an extreme lead to Fascism? No

Then fascism sure as heck isn't right wing.

The concept of small government is by no means the basis of right-wing government. It's very much an American concept, and one almost never spoken about in other conservative countries.

I am sure you can also think of a half dozen clearly Conservative governments that had nothing at all to say about small government - such as Pinochet, Cristiani, Rios Montte, Muldoon or even someone like Sakorzy.

Well guess what, we are American.

 

[francoHFW]

The GOP keeps promising small gov't and might as well as well continue as long as their chumps keep falling for it....lol. They go for this Hitler was a leftist crappe, you name it. I think it's just the rich white people party...another lie lol.

 

[Saigon]

BigReb -

If you are going to posting Hitler's quotes and ask if they sound right wing, then you also need to consider quotes like this one:

"In the years 1913 and 1914, I… expressed the conviction that the question of the future of the German nation was the question of destroying Marxism."

"In the economic sphere Communism is analogous to democracy in the political sphere."

"The Marxists will march with democracy until they succeed in indirectly obtaining for their criminal aims the support of even the national intellectual world, destined by them for extinction."

"Marxism itself systematically plans to hand the world over to the Jews."

"The Jewish doctrine of Marxism rejects the aristocratic principle of Nature and replaces the eternal privilege of power and strength by the mass of numbers and their dead weight."


Of course Hitler does not sound like Reagan or Ike - that does not mean that he was not right wing. There is a massive distance between the centre right and the extreme right.

Conservatives should not see this as an insult and rush to deny what is obviously an accepted historical fact - Hitler has nothing whatsoever to do with modern Conservatism, anymore so than Stalin has anything to do with modern liberalism.

 

[Avatar4321]

If we accept the premise of this then the entire spectrum from left to right is nothing but differing degrees of socialism/totalitarianism.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

You have either more Government or less Government... There is no circle. A dictator on the right and a dictator on the left, it makes no fucking sense.

That is becuse you assume right wing = small government. It doesn't. (Explained above)

I don't agree with the circle model myself - a horseshoe is a much more used model.

It’s important to note, of course, that modern American conservatives aren’t ‘Nazis’ or ‘fascists.’ But they all do share the roots of the same political family tree, particularly with regard to the blending of government and militarism, the hostility toward political and social dissent and diversity, and opposition to immigration and the fear of the loss of a racial/ethnic ‘national identity’ as a consequence of immigration and an increase in minority populations.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

This is why the political spectrum is usually shown as a horseshoe, as the RW Nazism/ Fascism (where corporations are kept, and are hugely powerful DUHHH!!) extreme and the LW communism (gov't owns industry) extremes are both totalitarian and almost meet. In the void between is anarchy (no government)...

This horseshoe? Strange how it doesn't look anything like what you described.

 

[Agit8r]

BigReb -

If you are going to posting Hitler's quotes and ask if they sound right wing, then you also need to consider quotes like this one:

"In the years 1913 and 1914, I… expressed the conviction that the question of the future of the German nation was the question of destroying Marxism."

"In the economic sphere Communism is analogous to democracy in the political sphere."

"The Marxists will march with democracy until they succeed in indirectly obtaining for their criminal aims the support of even the national intellectual world, destined by them for extinction."

"Marxism itself systematically plans to hand the world over to the Jews."

"The Jewish doctrine of Marxism rejects the aristocratic principle of Nature and replaces the eternal privilege of power and strength by the mass of numbers and their dead weight."


Of course Hitler does not sound like Reagan or Ike - that does not mean that he was not right wing. There is a massive distance between the centre right and the extreme right.

Conservatives should not see this as an insult and rush to deny what is obviously an accepted historical fact - Hitler has nothing whatsoever to do with modern Conservatism, anymore so than Stalin has anything to do with modern liberalism.

Sounds like Marx and Hess were his Saul Alinsky

 

[francoHFW]

Jeebus- RW means capitaist, loves corporations, like Hitler and fascists, left wing loves nationalizing corporations, until communism nationalizes everything...Pub dupes= functional MORONS lol.

 

[Saigon]

It’s important to note, of course, that modern American conservatives aren’t ‘Nazis’ or ‘fascists.’ But they all do share the roots of the same political family tree, particularly with regard to the blending of government and militarism, the hostility toward political and social dissent and diversity, and opposition to immigration and the fear of the loss of a racial/ethnic ‘national identity’ as a consequence of immigration and an increase in minority populations.

Exactly that - I think some conservatives react to threads like this as some kind of insult, whereas to my mind Fascism has little to do with modern Conservatism. There is a huge gulf between the centre and the extreme.

 

[Avatar4321]

It’s important to note, of course, that modern American conservatives aren’t ‘Nazis’ or ‘fascists.’ But they all do share the roots of the same political family tree, particularly with regard to the blending of government and militarism, the hostility toward political and social dissent and diversity, and opposition to immigration and the fear of the loss of a racial/ethnic ‘national identity’ as a consequence of immigration and an increase in minority populations.

No. They don't.

 

[Avatar4321]

It’s important to note, of course, that modern American conservatives aren’t ‘Nazis’ or ‘fascists.’ But they all do share the roots of the same political family tree, particularly with regard to the blending of government and militarism, the hostility toward political and social dissent and diversity, and opposition to immigration and the fear of the loss of a racial/ethnic ‘national identity’ as a consequence of immigration and an increase in minority populations.

Exactly that - I think some conservatives react to threads like this as some kind of insult, whereas to my mind Fascism has little to do with modern Conservatism. There is a huge gulf between the centre and the extreme.

Couldn't possibly be because of all the progressives on this board and in the media who call conservatives fascist and nazis could it?

 

[Saigon]

Avatar -

The standard of debate on this board does mean that a lot of what is posted are just generic insults.

I totally agree with you that posters should not call modern Conservatives 'fascist'. It's silly.

However, it is equally silly for posters to call modern liberals Communists, Marxists etc etc etc.

 

[francoHFW]

This is why the political spectrum is usually shown as a horseshoe, as the RW Nazism/ Fascism (where corporations are kept, and are hugely powerful DUHHH!!) extreme and the LW communism (gov't owns industry) extremes are both totalitarian and almost meet. In the void between is anarchy (no government)...

This horseshoe? Strange how it doesn't look anything like what you described.

Pure BS from some RW charlatan, that's why.

Should go:
Center
Dems---------- Repubs
Socialists------ Fascists Naz(Totalitarians)
Communist Totalitarians

When you put fascists and socialists together, you're a MORON....
Fascists (Nazis) are totalitarians and love capitalists.
Socialists TEND toward nationalizing a few industries, are always democratic.
Commies nationalize everything, always totalitarian.

That is the facts, dupes, of modern PoliSci.