How we know Hitler was right wing.

[Oddball]

I have no issue when calling out a figure on the totalitarian right. As stated before, Genghis Khan being a prime example. Brutal, demanded compliance, his law was divine, etc. BUT, let conquered lands worship, produce and work as or how they choose as long as their 'donations', loyalty, worship, etc was to Khan's empire

No, that's inaccurate. Genghis Khan was simply authoritarian.

If he let conquered lands do as they liked as long as they paid tribute and lip service, that is the very opposite of totalitarianism.

Totalitarianism grew out of the French Revolution/Napoleon concept of "Total War," in which the entire populace would be involved in any war: men, women, children, old and young. This later became totalitarianism when Hitler and Stalin and others put it into practice in peace time and controlled the citizens in every aspect of their life, from cradle to grave. So children had to join Hitler Youth, young men had summer camps for training, churches were controlled, business was controlled, etc. That is totalitarianism, when everyone has to be controlled in all of their lives for the good of the state.

You mean like they have been in far, far, far, extreme left communist Soviet Russia and China?

 

[Circe]

You mean like they have been in far, far, far, extreme left communist Soviet Russia and China?

Right, sure. Those are prime examples, along with Hitler's Germany, Ceausescu's Romania Pol Pot's Cambodia; actually, France during the Revolution 1789--1799 was also quite totalitarian: they invented it, really. You couldn't go to church, you had to dress certain ways, major thought and behavior control or face the guillotine, etc.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Meh...

The arc is no less two dimensional than the contrived linear left/right Hegelean model.

True. But I think viewing it as an arc is more realistic than a line, because the more extreme you get, the closer the parties become, both seeking to dominate the populous, requiring a bigger government/military , and totalitarian laws.

It's not realistic because it's two dimensional.

Communism, the far, far, far, far, left: Economic central planning, military dictatorship, a brutal police state, social stratification via political affiliation, propaganda as "news", internment/concentration camps/gulags for political dissenters and other "undesirables".

Fascism, the (allegedly) far, far, far, right: Economic central planning, military dictatorship, a brutal police state, social stratification via political affiliation, propaganda as "news", internment/concentration camps/gulags for political dissenters and other "undesirables".

The trifling differences in the forms of centralized authoritarian collectivist mindsets viz. the dumbed-down left/right crapola is a bunch of academic navel gazing.

^ Perfect description!!

 

[Misty]

Hitler was a lunatic. He was neither right wing or left wing. He was a crazy evil dick.

And the fact that lakhota thanked your op is proof that it is irrelevant.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Hitler was a lunatic. He was neither right wing or left wing. He was a crazy evil dick.

And the fact that lakhota thanked your op is proof that it is irrelevant.

Lakota starts every morning with the Goose Step Aerobic workout

 

[whitehall]

Regardless of Hitler's propaganda calling Nazism nothing but a folksy club, it was rooted in socialism. Do the words "nationalist socialist" mean anything today? Hitler's ideology was the same as his ally Stalin and Nazism is Marxism without the elitist mumbo jumbo associated with nutcases like Karl Marx and Nicky Lennon.

 

[WUN]

Finaly, what seperates right wing tyranny from left wing tyranny are the facts of Capital and Class.

Socialism and Marxism are based around the worker and the working classes. Although Hitler appealed to the masses as well, his key support came from the upper classes. Socialism sought to destroy class. Fascism sought to entrench the classes even more deeply into society.

Socialism sought to remove capital from society. Fascism worked through capital, enriching the upper classes and using wealth to garner support. Hitler imagined a society in which capitalism and investment thrived - Stali imagined a society in which capitalism and investment did not exist.

There are other areas of difference as well. Hitler favoured:

Individualism over collectivism.
Merit over equality.
Competition over cooperation.
Capitalism over Marxism.
Nationalism over internationalism.
Exclusiveness over inclusiveness.
Common sense over theory or science.

Stalin's views were essentially the opposite in each instance.

Hitler did not ascribe to American capitalism or Russian communism/socialism. He thought U.S. and Russia both got it wrong and Fascism is it's own separate animal. Fascism is not geared towards capitalism or socialism, it's geared to the state, but without the 'sharing' or collectivism. Facism doesn't want corporations or workers to have much power, it wants corporations and workers to succeed only as it benefits the government. Fascism dictates that government controls BOTH businesses and workers to benefit the state, not that the government supports either businesses or workers.

I agree with most political scientists that it is more rightwing than leftwing, but it's a strange rightwing that borrows some of the authortarian tactics/elements from communism, which is one reason why I find it ironic that Hitler hated communism so much.

 

[Oddball]

That's because you are only seeing the best qualities of the right and refusing to aknowledge the others.

That's like me saying "those on the left are for equality for all and better education for everyone".

Meh...

The arc is no less two dimensional than the contrived linear left/right Hegelean model.

True. But I think viewing it as an arc is more realistic than a line, because the more extreme you get, the closer the parties become, both seeking to dominate the populous, requiring a bigger government/military , and totalitarian laws.

I'd also like to add that the arc model presumes that the "centre" can't be authoritarian....If the "centre' of America is any indication, that presumption is so far off base as to be laughable.

 

[DiamondDave]

I have no issue when calling out a figure on the totalitarian right. As stated before, Genghis Khan being a prime example. Brutal, demanded compliance, his law was divine, etc. BUT, let conquered lands worship, produce and work as or how they choose as long as their 'donations', loyalty, worship, etc was to Khan's empire

No, that's inaccurate. Genghis Khan was simply authoritarian.

If he let conquered lands do as they liked as long as they paid tribute and lip service, that is the very opposite of totalitarianism.

Totalitarianism grew out of the French Revolution/Napoleon concept of "Total War," in which the entire populace would be involved in any war: men, women, children, old and young. This later became totalitarianism when Hitler and Stalin and others put it into practice in peace time and controlled the citizens in every aspect of their life, from cradle to grave. So children had to join Hitler Youth, young men had summer camps for training, churches were controlled, business was controlled, etc. That is totalitarianism, when everyone has to be controlled in all of their lives for the good of the state.

Perhaps you should see the law and punishment system he put across his empire.. even while giving the conquered many individual freedoms and without having his officials controlling every last aspect... If you want to simply call it extreme authoritarian right... 6 of 1, 1/2 dozen of another

 

[Wiseacre]

The idea that the left and right ideologies arc back into a circle where both extremes are totalitarian makes no sense to me. How does a political philosophy that espouses less gov't intervention end up as a totalitarian state instead of anarchy at it's extreme fringe?

 

[Rocko]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ecDxMQcsLg]Obama's Brown-shirts Are Coming - Gestapo - SS - Civilian National Security Force - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Avorysuds]

Intense -

Not all tyrants and dictators share the same philosophy and ideology. Yes, Stalin, Mao and Hitler were tyrants and dictators, but no, Hitler was not a communist.

The funny thing is, I have never seen a left wing poster attempt to re-write history and claim Stalin was right wing. And yet this week we have seen TWO right-wing posters attempt to re-write history and pretend Hitler was left wing.

And yet we get to sit here and watch you and others in this very thread re-write history and claim Hitler fits in the right wing political spectrum in America.

Fucking stupidity to the mizax.

 

[Political Junky]

I'm not sure why you are assigning an ideology to despots, murderers, tyrants, and dictators.

Right wingers do it all the time.

 

[Oddball]

I'm not sure why you are assigning an ideology to despots, murderers, tyrants, and dictators.

Right wingers do it all the time.

Project much?

 

[Oddball]

The idea that the left and right ideologies arc back into a circle where both extremes are totalitarian makes no sense to me. How does a political philosophy that espouses less gov't intervention end up as a totalitarian state instead of anarchy at it's extreme fringe?

It doesn't.

The circular model is a cynical way for soft socialists to try and sell their "centrism" as non-authoritarian.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Prior coming to this board, I had never heard anyone suggest Hitler was anything but right wing. This may be something to do with living in Europe where the awareness of fascism is so very high because it occured here, or maybe it's something our education system focuses on. Or maybe coincidence.

Either way, recently I've noticed two posters recently insist Hitler was left wing....and even liberal.

In cases like this, I am not sure facts have a great deal of impact, but maybe it is interesting to discuss some of the features of Fascism anyway.

Let's start with some quotes from Hitler:

"The main plank in the Nationalist Socialist program is to abolish the liberalistic concept of the individual and the Marxist concept of humanity and to substitute for them the folk community, rooted in the soil and bound together by the bond of its common blood."

So sparky; collectivism is "right wing?"

And isn't it the goal of the left to abolish individualism in favor of "society," where groups, such as black, gay, Latino, et al. define rights?

"The German state is gravely attacked by Marxism."

What language were you attempting to use?

Marxism arose from the Fabians, as did other Socialist and Authoritarian ideas.

"In the years 1913 and 1914, I… expressed the conviction that the question of the future of the German nation was the question of destroying Marxism."

"In the economic sphere Communism is analogous to democracy in the political sphere."

"The Marxists will march with democracy until they succeed in indirectly obtaining for their criminal aims the support of even the national intellectual world, destined by them for extinction."

"Marxism itself systematically plans to hand the world over to the Jews."

Ah, so Hitler equated Marxism with the Jews - even while his partner in Crime, Josef Stalin, slaughtered more Jews than he did...

LOL

Thanks for the laugh - another leftist illiterate attempting to alter reality.

 

[Avorysuds]

It's nice to know that the right is claiming all of those anarchist hippie protesters at the World Bank summits.

You have either more Government or less Government... There is no circle. A dictator on the right and a dictator on the left, it makes no fucking sense.

 

[Uncensored2008]

It's simple (VERY simple).

Certain elements class everything they do not like and everything that is damaging, bad or less than God's will as 'liberal', 'progressive', 'socialist' and, of course, 'communist'. While this tendency also exists to a degree with people who identify themselves as 'liberal' calling anyone to the right of Marx 'fascist', it is less pronounced.

Being neither 'left' nor 'right', both disturb me, but this story of Hitler being a leftist is the most glaringly absurd conclusion one can conceive of.

Either that, or some people prefer historic fact to the progressive myth.

A question for all the leftists:

Prior to forming the Fascisti, Benito Mussolini was the head of what party"

1.) The Reelect BOOOOOSHHH party
2.) The Tea Party
3.) The Italian Bolshevik Party
4.) The Republican Party

Fascism, a system that advocates government control of the means of production coupled with authoritarian collectivism...

 

[Antares]

Frankly folks no matter what side you are on this was/is a very good thread.
Throw out Franco's non-stop silliness and the vast majority f posts were well thought out and reasoned.
Best thread I have ever read on the whole.
Bravo

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Tell me something does this sound anything like what a right winger would say?

COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD

25. In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations.

The formation of professional committees and of committees representing the several estates of the realm, to ensure that the laws promulgated by the central authority shall be carried out by the federal states.

The leaders of the party undertake to promote the execution of the foregoing points at all costs, if necessary at the sacrifice of their own lives.

The History Place - Rise of Hitler: The 25 Points of Hitler's Nazi Party