Zone1 How would you feel about God if he

[sealybobo]

Stop misstating me. Just be honest. Matter and energy popping into existence being hardwired to produce life freaks you out because it makes you question your non-belief. As well it should. But that's not the only reason you should question your non-belief. You know a great deal about yourself and what you know about yourself should also cause you to have doubts about your non-belief just as much as matter and energy popping into existence being hardwired to produce life and intelligence.

No it doesn't make me question my non believe in god stories that humans tell me about when he visited. There could be a god. If you believe in infinity god could absolutely be real. I mean come on right? The universe pops into existence and then 6 billion years later trilobites rule the earth then 5 billion years ago Dinosaurs then 5000 years ago us. Are you sure we're the last thing that will rule this planet? I think tardigrades will rule long after we're gone.

 

[sealybobo]

Before you can assess who God is (as in which perception of God you believe exists) you first must accept that there is a higher power than man based upon the evidence you have at your disposal; the creation of space and time, the evolution of space and time, physical laws of nature, biological laws of nature and the moral laws of nature. AND you must have a perception of God that isn't a fairy-tale God but a realistic perception of an entity that exists outside of space and time.

So I have to say there MUST be a god? I can't.

 

[ding]

No it doesn't make me question my non believe in god stories that humans tell me about when he visited. There could be a god. If you believe in infinity god could absolutely be real. I mean come on right? The universe pops into existence and then 6 billion years later trilobites rule the earth then 5 billion years ago Dinosaurs then 5000 years ago us. Are you sure we're the last thing that will rule this planet? I think tardigrades will rule long after we're gone.

Seems to me that that is a greater display of power than magically popping a fully evolved universe in place. It's not even close in my mind.

 

[ding]

So I have to say there MUST be a god? I can't.

No. You don't have to say that. You have to investigate it objectively. Which is probably something you never did because your biases prevented you from being objective.

 

[sealybobo]

I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say here but the science says the universe will continue expanding into the future.

What do you say to this?

The universe is also slowly running out of usable hydrogen. The gas and dust used to form stars is contained in very large and very cold molecular clouds. These clouds need to be “shunted” in order for them to begin to condense down to form more stars. Early in the universe's history these clouds were all over the place and they were immense but now there isn't quite as many, as you would expect. Also as the universe expands the mean density of hydrogen molecules per cubic centimeter decreases.

So with the theories around in relation to this subject, you are probably looking at something like 100–120 trillion years before the last star dies out. This is by no means the end of the universe, only the end of the age of hydrogen fusing stars. There is a lot more to happen before the universe “ends” but that is another story.

Observations suggest that the expansion of the universe will continue forever. The prevailing theory is that the universe will cool as it expands, eventually becoming too cold to sustain life. For this reason, this future scenario once popularly called "Heat Death" is now known as the "Big Chill" or "Big Freeze".

But if it's eternal how is this possible?

If dark energy—represented by the cosmological constant, a constant energy density filling space homogeneously,[3] or scalar fields, such as quintessence or moduli, dynamicquantities whose energy density can vary in time and space—accelerates the expansion of the universe, then the space between clusters of galaxies will grow at an increasing rate. Redshift will stretch ancient, incoming photons (even gamma rays) to undetectably long wavelengths and low energies.[4]Stars are expected to form normally for 1012 to 1014 (1–100 trillion) years, but eventually the supply of gas needed for star formation will be exhausted. As existing stars run out of fuel and cease to shine, the universe will slowly and inexorably grow darker.[5][6] According to theories that predict proton decay, the stellar remnants left behind will disappear, leaving behind only black holes, which themselves eventually disappear as they emit Hawking radiation.[7] Ultimately, if the universe reaches thermodynamic equilibrium, a state in which the temperature approaches a uniform value, no further work will be possible, resulting in a final heat death of the universe.[8]

 

[ding]

So I have to say there MUST be a god? I can't.

Let me ask you this question. Is it possible for you to find something that you have no idea what you are looking for? Of course it isn't. But that's exactly what you have been doing.

If your perception of God is a white bearded man sitting on a cloud, you're not going to find that because that's not what God is. God is incorporeal. God is every extant attribute of reality. How do you propose finding extant attributes of reality? You can't see them. You can't touch them. You can't hear them. You can't smell them. You can't taste them. But you can sense them with your consciousness. God is transcendent. The only evidence you are going to find for God is indirect evidence.

 

[sealybobo]

No. You don't have to say that. You have to investigate it objectively. Which is probably something you never did because your biases prevented you from being objective.

No I've always been open to it. You've been trying to tell me god visited you. If you understand the Universe is infinite, that's all I need.

But our universe also had a beginning.

And according to this, may have an end. I don't get it. I look and it says science thinks the universe will expand forever but then they say this

If dark energy—represented by the cosmological constant, a constant energy density filling space homogeneously,[3] or scalar fields, such as quintessence or moduli, dynamicquantities whose energy density can vary in time and space—accelerates the expansion of the universe, then the space between clusters of galaxies will grow at an increasing rate. Redshift will stretch ancient, incoming photons (even gamma rays) to undetectably long wavelengths and low energies.[4]Stars are expected to form normally for 1012 to 1014 (1–100 trillion) years, but eventually the supply of gas needed for star formation will be exhausted. As existing stars run out of fuel and cease to shine, the universe will slowly and inexorably grow darker.[5][6] According to theories that predict proton decay, the stellar remnants left behind will disappear, leaving behind only black holes, which themselves eventually disappear as they emit Hawking radiation.[7] Ultimately, if the universe reaches thermodynamic equilibrium, a state in which the temperature approaches a uniform value, no further work will be possible, resulting in a final heat death of the universe.[8]

Google what happens when the last stars die out. They all turn into black holes. So the universe in the future will be really dark and nothing but black holes. Couldn't it all collapse back in on itself?

The science isn't settled I'm sure. Lots of different theories.

The universe itself isn't proof of intelligent design. Neither are you.

 

[sealybobo]

Let me ask you this question. Is it possible for you to find something that you have no idea what you are looking for? Of course it isn't. But that's exactly what you have been doing.

If your perception of God is a white bearded man sitting on a cloud, you're not going to find that because that's not what God is. God is incorporeal. God is every extant attribute of reality. How do you propose finding extant attributes of reality? You can't see them. You can't touch them. You can't hear them. You can't smell them. You can't taste them. But you can sense them with your consciousness. God is transcendent. The only evidence you are going to find for God is indirect evidence.

So when something good happens you praise him but when something bad happens you curse him?

God is every extant attribute of reality

So god is everything good and bad?

 

[ding]

What do you say to this?

The universe is also slowly running out of usable hydrogen. The gas and dust used to form stars is contained in very large and very cold molecular clouds. These clouds need to be “shunted” in order for them to begin to condense down to form more stars. Early in the universe's history these clouds were all over the place and they were immense but now there isn't quite as many, as you would expect. Also as the universe expands the mean density of hydrogen molecules per cubic centimeter decreases.

So with the theories around in relation to this subject, you are probably looking at something like 100–120 trillion years before the last star dies out. This is by no means the end of the universe, only the end of the age of hydrogen fusing stars. There is a lot more to happen before the universe “ends” but that is another story.

Observations suggest that the expansion of the universe will continue forever. The prevailing theory is that the universe will cool as it expands, eventually becoming too cold to sustain life. For this reason, this future scenario once popularly called "Heat Death" is now known as the "Big Chill" or "Big Freeze".

But if it's eternal how is this possible?

If dark energy—represented by the cosmological constant, a constant energy density filling space homogeneously,[3] or scalar fields, such as quintessence or moduli, dynamicquantities whose energy density can vary in time and space—accelerates the expansion of the universe, then the space between clusters of galaxies will grow at an increasing rate. Redshift will stretch ancient, incoming photons (even gamma rays) to undetectably long wavelengths and low energies.[4]Stars are expected to form normally for 1012 to 1014 (1–100 trillion) years, but eventually the supply of gas needed for star formation will be exhausted. As existing stars run out of fuel and cease to shine, the universe will slowly and inexorably grow darker.[5][6] According to theories that predict proton decay, the stellar remnants left behind will disappear, leaving behind only black holes, which themselves eventually disappear as they emit Hawking radiation.[7] Ultimately, if the universe reaches thermodynamic equilibrium, a state in which the temperature approaches a uniform value, no further work will be possible, resulting in a final heat death of the universe.[8]

It's eternal because it doesn't go away. But sure that's probably the fate of the universe.

 

[ding]

You've been trying to tell me god visited you.

I think you are thinking of someone else.

 

[ding]

I've always been open to it.

I don't believe you are being honest with yourself.

 

[ding]

If you understand the Universe is infinite, that's all I need.

I don't believe it is though. There's no data that supports eternal inflation. There is tons of data supporting matter and energy popping into existence though. So arguing eternal inflation is an extrapolation at best. But there's no confirmation of it.

 

[sealybobo]

It's eternal because it doesn't go away. But sure that's probably the fate of the universe.

Why can't it go away?

Trillions of years in the future stars will fizzle out, turning night skies black. All lingering matter will be gobbled up by black holes until there's nothing left.

Ah ha! Nothing? So you wonder how does something come from nothing? We will find out when the next Big Bang happens. I hope God gives me another life in the next universe. Or send me to heaven if one exists.

 

[ding]

But our universe also had a beginning.

And according to this, may have an end. I don't get it. I look and it says science thinks the universe will expand forever but then they say this

Is it really an end though? Does it disappear? No. It just goes cold. That's it.

 

[sealybobo]

I don't believe it is though. There's no data that supports eternal inflation. There is tons of data supporting matter and energy popping into existence though. So arguing eternal inflation is an extrapolation at best. But there's no confirmation of it.

Right. Trillions of years in the future, long after Earth is destroyed, the universe will drift apart until galaxy and star formation ceases. Slowly, stars will fizzle out, turning night skies black. All lingering matter will be gobbled up by black holes until there's nothing left.

Eventually back to NOTHING.

 

[ding]

Why can't it go away?

Trillions of years in the future stars will fizzle out, turning night skies black. All lingering matter will be gobbled up by black holes until there's nothing left.

Ah ha! Nothing? So you wonder how does something come from nothing? We will find out when the next Big Bang happens. I hope God gives me another life in the next universe. Or send me to heaven if one exists.

Because of the FLoT. The universe going dark doesn't necessarily mean everything becomes black holes. But even if it did (which it won't) the matter and gravity still exists.

 

[ding]

The universe itself isn't proof of intelligent design. Neither are you.

I don't believe in intelligent design. I believe God willed the universe into existence. I don't think God designed the details per se.

 

[ding]

So when something good happens you praise him but when something bad happens you curse him?

Incorrect. God's power isn't put forth to achieve certain outcomes or objectives. God's power is put forth to achieve certain outcomes or objectives under certain conditions which affect changes in the lives of those experiencing it. When things don't go the way I think they should go my first reaction is similar to everyone else's first reaction. But then I find something to be thankful for and my attitude changes and I am able to discover what it was God wanted me to learn. I call this peace through the storm.

 

[ding]

So god is everything good and bad?

Not exactly. I should have said God is every incorporeal extant attribute of reality. Saying God is everything is pantheism and I don't believe the painter can be the painting.

As for good and bad... the bad are not extant realities. The bad are the negation of the extant reality. For instance love exists. Love is an incorporeal extant reality. Hate is the negation of love. Hate only exists as the absence of love. So hate is not extant. Only love is extant.

 

[ding]

Right. Trillions of years in the future, long after Earth is destroyed, the universe will drift apart until galaxy and star formation ceases. Slowly, stars will fizzle out, turning night skies black. All lingering matter will be gobbled up by black holes until there's nothing left.

Eventually back to NOTHING.

Incorrect. The matter will still exist. Gravity will still exist.