Human Rights in Some Redacted Corner of Afghanistan

[georgephillip]

One of hundreds of examples of America's high regard for human rights:

"Marwan al-Jabour is a Palestinian who was born in Amman, Jordan. In 1994, he moved to Pakistan, where he pursued his education. In the spring of 2004, Jabour was detained by Pakistan’s notorious ISI after having dinner with a friend and university professor in Lahore.

"He was taken to a detention fa- cility where he was interrogated about his friend and about the location of Arab militants.

"Through the night he was beaten, kicked and repeatedly shocked with an electric prod..."

"Jabour was detained in Pakistan for nearly a month, where he was tortured regularly and savage threats were made against his wife and two children. He was bound for four consecutive days and refused even the right to urinate. He was never charged with a crime or allowed to see a lawyer.

"Then the Americans came..."

"The men who put him on the plane that night worked for the Central Intelligence Agency. The prison they flew him to was a ghost site, a secret CIA interrogation facility, in some re- dacted corner of Afghanistan."

Two and a half years of systematic torture failed to extract the desired "confession" so the CIA stuffed Jabour into a small plane bound for Jordan where the "militant" was turned over to Israelis who promptly dumped him in Gaza.

"Jabour has been free now for seven years.
Still he waits for justice.
When will it come?
Who will deliver it?"

The CIA Came at Night » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

 

[georgephillip]

No one at the CIA, obviously:

"Two guards led Jabour to a dark cell, three feet wide and six feet long, where his clothes were cut off. One of his hands was cuffed to an iron ring in the wall. His feet were chained to a similar ring welded to the floor. Two video cameras were trained down on him. Loudspeakers blared heavy metal music, hour after hour, night after night.

"He was left standing in the cell naked.

"The guards returned the next morning, shaved his head and his beard, unchained him and led him, still naked, to an interrogation room.

"Inside, there were ten people, includ- ing two women and a doctor. The doctor was filmed as he probed Jabour’s naked body. He was then pushed into a chair and his legs and hands cuffed. A large, thickly muscled man called the 'Marine' stood ominously behind him."

The CIA Came at Night » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

 

[georgephillip]

"His interrogators warned Jabour to cooperate fully or he would be stuffed into the Dog Box. The man pointed to a small wooden box, three-feet by three-feet in size. Jabour was shown hundreds of photographs, quizzed about each. This went on day after day, week after week, month after month. He was fed rancid food from cans. Arbitrarily, his captors would chain him into contorted stress positions for hours at a time."

The CIA Came at Night » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

Innocent man.
Never charged.
Never convicted.
Dumped in Gaza after two and a half years of torture.

 

[georgephillip]

"For more than two years, he followed the same routine. His legs were always shackled, his cell dark, his eyes blind- folded as he was moved from cell to interrogation room. Jabour’s answers remained the same. He was not a terrorist. He didn’t know the men in the photographs. He never associated with Al Qaeda.

"Unknown to Jabour, in late June 2006, the Supreme Court ruled that detainees held by government as enemy combatants came under the protection of the Geneva Convention. Four weeks later, Jabour was told that he was going to be transferred again. Once more Jabour was stripped naked. This time he was forced to wear a diaper.

"Again his naked body was filmed by his captors. Cotton balls were stuffed in his ears and taped over his eyes. A thick rubber band was strapped around his head. A mask was buckled around his face. 'I felt like a mummy,' Jabour later told Human Rights Watch investigators."

The CIA Came at Night » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

 

[ScienceRocks]

Well it's a war asshole. Do you understand what happens in war??? Did you make it out of first grade?

 

[ScienceRocks]

The Taliban that's going to take over Afifuckingstan is really going to break those womans human rights.

You can bet your pot smoking ass they will retake afifuckingstan.

Bet your cup cakes asshole and 10 dollars that will occur.

 

[FA_Q2]

Well it's a war asshole. Do you understand what happens in war??? Did you make it out of first grade?

I understand that a war is not a justification to torture and, even more importantly, torture has been shown to be an ineffective means of extracting information. If the story is true then what occurred is wrong.

Do you understand that we are NOT the Taliban and if we reduce ourselves to their level then there is not even a point in fighting – we already lost. What this story entails is sickening and should never be allowed to occur under American control. The fact that you can defend that is nuts.

What we need to do is kill the enemy, not torture random people in hopes that we can find out something that may or may not be useful (and is it is WAY more likely to be completely useless when obtained through torture). Did the Bush debacle not teach you ANYTHING?

What makes you think that a government empowered with the ability to torture innocent people at will based on mere suspicion is going to give 2 shits about your rights here at home? Where do you think the mentality comes from when the government decides that it has the right to assassinate you at will or deny you your rights of trial even if detained here in the states? Here is a hint – all of this comes from the same mentality and disregard for rights.

 

[ScienceRocks]

I hope we get out soon so the Taliban can retake that shit hole.

 

[NightFox]

Well it's a war asshole. Do you understand what happens in war??? Did you make it out of first grade?

I understand that a war is not a justification to torture and, even more importantly, torture has been shown to be an ineffective means of extracting information. If the story is true then what occurred is wrong.

Do you understand that we are NOT the Taliban and if we reduce ourselves to their level then there is not even a point in fighting – we already lost. What this story entails is sickening and should never be allowed to occur under American control. The fact that you can defend that is nuts.

What we need to do is kill the enemy, not torture random people in hopes that we can find out something that may or may not be useful (and is it is WAY more likely to be completely useless when obtained through torture). Did the Bush debacle not teach you ANYTHING?

What makes you think that a government empowered with the ability to torture innocent people at will based on mere suspicion is going to give 2 shits about your rights here at home? Where do you think the mentality comes from when the government decides that it has the right to assassinate you at will or deny you your rights of trial even if detained here in the states? Here is a hint – all of this comes from the same mentality and disregard for rights.

Good points FA, on the specific question of the "Taliban" and our reducing ourselves to their level, I think a good argument could be made that we have become WORSE than the Taliban in some aspects. How many innocent civilians have we killed in our "war of terror", how many people tortured and imprisoned? How many bloodthirsty murders have we armed and supported over the years? How many people do we impoverish under the framework of economic sanctions?

Average Americans don't really seem to care that their government carries out the mass slaughter of innocents on a global scale, in fact many of them seem to cheer it on. The Taliban for all it's heinous human rights abuses are just pikers when compared to the violence abroad that the U.S. Government has perpetrated. While the United States has certainly done a lot of good for the world, we have also done a lot of evil, on balance which is the greater of the two?

"Liberty and democracy become unholy when their hands are dyed red with innocent blood." -- Mohandas K. Gandhi

 

[ScienceRocks]

This is why we need to stay the fuck out of Syria. It isn't worth being hated from idiots like you.

 

[georgephillip]

Well it's a war asshole. Do you understand what happens in war??? Did you make it out of first grade?

I understand war is a racket and Marwan al-Jabour posed no threat to my country or yours.
Why are you confusing self-defense with terrorism?

 

[georgephillip]

The Taliban that's going to take over Afifuckingstan is really going to break those womans human rights.

You can bet your pot smoking ass they will retake afifuckingstan.

Bet your cup cakes asshole and 10 dollars that will occur.

Are you ignorant as Laura, asshole?

"On November 18 2001 Laura Bush gave her first radio address urging worldwide condemnation of the treatment of women in Afghanistan. She stated that the 'fight against terrorism is also a fight for the rights and dignity of women'. This was because the plight of women and children in Afghanistan was 'a matter of deliberate human cruelty, carried out by those who seek to intimidate and control”.

"The then First Lady cited numerous statistics and reports that backed her claim and immediately after her speech, the State Department released an 11-page report on the Taliban’s 'War Against Women.' The report stated that the 'Taliban perpetrated egregious acts of violence against women, including rape, abduction and forced marriage'”

"Deliberate cruelty", get it?
Like the murder, maiming, and displacing of millions of Muslim women in pur$uit of Women'$ Right$.

How's that liberation thing worked out for women in Afghanistan?
Depends who you ask.

"Oxfam and Action Aid both released a reports ten years on from the western intervention claiming:

"'72% of Afghan women believe their lives are better now than they were 10 years ago ' and '27% of MPs are women (higher than the world average) and 5% of positions in the army and police force are filled by women.'"

Are you and Laura proud of that?
Don't be.

"'We remain caged in our country, without access to justice and still ruled by women-hating criminals. Fundamentalists still preach that 'a woman should be in her house or in the grave.'

"In most places, it is still not safe for a woman to appear in public uncovered, or to walk on the street without a male relative. Girls are sold into marriage. Rape goes unpunished” — Malalai Joya in A Woman Among Warlords."

"Mohadesa Najumi is originally from Kabul, Afghanistan, now living in London. You can follow her on@mohadesareverie."

Your War Did Not Liberate Us » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

But it did make Laura Bush a whole lot of $$$.

 

[editec]

We're NOT the good guys, anymore, folks.

I'm not sure there ARE any Good Guys in charge anywhere in the world.

But sure as hell we're not...not anymore.

 

[georgephillip]

We're NOT the good guys, anymore, folks.

I'm not sure there ARE any Good Guys in charge anywhere in the world.

But sure as hell we're not...not anymore.

Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003 it's hard to imagine how anyone could honestly believe the greatest purveyor of violence on the planet is a "good guy." Apparently, ethical flat-earthers live among us today?

 

[FA_Q2]

Well it's a war asshole. Do you understand what happens in war??? Did you make it out of first grade?

I understand that a war is not a justification to torture and, even more importantly, torture has been shown to be an ineffective means of extracting information. If the story is true then what occurred is wrong.

Do you understand that we are NOT the Taliban and if we reduce ourselves to their level then there is not even a point in fighting – we already lost. What this story entails is sickening and should never be allowed to occur under American control. The fact that you can defend that is nuts.

What we need to do is kill the enemy, not torture random people in hopes that we can find out something that may or may not be useful (and is it is WAY more likely to be completely useless when obtained through torture). Did the Bush debacle not teach you ANYTHING?

What makes you think that a government empowered with the ability to torture innocent people at will based on mere suspicion is going to give 2 shits about your rights here at home? Where do you think the mentality comes from when the government decides that it has the right to assassinate you at will or deny you your rights of trial even if detained here in the states? Here is a hint – all of this comes from the same mentality and disregard for rights.

Good points FA, on the specific question of the "Taliban" and our reducing ourselves to their level, I think a good argument could be made that we have become WORSE than the Taliban in some aspects. How many innocent civilians have we killed in our "war of terror", how many people tortured and imprisoned? How many bloodthirsty murders have we armed and supported over the years? How many people do we impoverish under the framework of economic sanctions?

Average Americans don't really seem to care that their government carries out the mass slaughter of innocents on a global scale, in fact many of them seem to cheer it on. The Taliban for all it's heinous human rights abuses are just pikers when compared to the violence abroad that the U.S. Government has perpetrated. While the United States has certainly done a lot of good for the world, we have also done a lot of evil, on balance which is the greater of the two?

"Liberty and democracy become unholy when their hands are dyed red with innocent blood." -- Mohandas K. Gandhi

An argument could be made that way but I rather think it is more a scale of capability than it is of shades of gray. No matter what the opinion of many is, America STILL takes great pains in attempts to limit civilian casualties and collateral damage. Terrorists take great pains in MAXIMIZING the same. So, no, I do not think that we are necessarily ‘worse’ than the terrorists but rather we are FAR too powerful to be waltzing around the world like we own the damn place. I think that Americans in general have no concept of how truly horrifying war really is. If you are not willing to sit there and douse a child in napalm and then light the fire yourself for the cause you are trumpeting then you should not be willing to go to war over it because I can guarantee you that is EXACTLY the type of shit that is going to happen in a war. It was the one thing that worried me (and it turned out I was justified in that worry) when Afghanistan kicked off. There was no death on our side. Americans sat at home eating Cheetos and seeing that we had no casualties, not noticing at all that there were many people that were not Americans dying, thinking that this was war. That made them far too complacent when it came time for Iraq.

I would like war to be bloodless but I think that when it is it makes us so much more likely to get into even worse wars.

I would like to address some other points that you made and am going to reformat them for simplicity:

• how many people tortured and imprisoned?
• How many bloodthirsty murders have we armed and supported over the years?
• How many people do we impoverish under the framework of economic sanctions?
• While the United States has certainly done a lot of good for the world, we have also done a lot of evil, on balance which is the greater of the two?

1 – That is the sick part. I can accept collateral damage; there is no way to prevent 100 percent of that. As long as we take every REASONABLE precaution then we still have a soap box to stand on. Torture and imprisonment though – those are premeditated conscious decisions that WE are making by proxy of our government. We cannot claim to be the beacon of freedom and rights when torturing even the guilty. If we know you are a terrorist then imprisonment is an option but torture should have NEVER been on the table. I, for one, could care less about the terrorists and would be just fine if they were flayed alive and drowned in saltwater but what taking that action does to OUR soul is unacceptable in the highest regard. We should never allow ourselves to be so tainted that we can turn our backs on morality and justice in pure revenge.

2 – the backlash of supporting forging bloodthirsty regimes. Another kick in the pants with Afghanistan as we created that situation and the animus toward us. And the truly scary part – Libya is proving that we learned NOTHING. How dense are we as a nation to forget that all important lesson in just 10 short years?

3 - As far as economic sanctions goes, there is nothing wrong with that concept. The fact here is that we are, as a nation, perfectly within our rights to simply not trade, and work deals with our partners, with a nation that is not representing our interests. That is one of the sole things that I think we have right. Those nations that suffer have nothing but themselves to blame in that regard as their leaders live in opulence while the peasants starve. Trading and sanctions is one thing, bombs and bullets are quite another.

4 – I don’t think that ‘balance’ matters at all. I could care less how much good we have done. Stopping a murder does not justify raping the ‘saved’ afterward. We need to stick with our principals because that is what makes us grate rather than try and weigh what we have harmed and helped.


By the way, I like the Gandhi kick. You are a goldmine of awesome quotes today

 

[georgephillip]

Do the math:

"They came for Jabour at night. He was ordered by the men to turn around and face the wall, while his hands were cuffed and his legs shackled. A blindfold was fastened to his head. He was led from his cell in an Islamabad jail to a waiting van.

"Jabour was then driven to an airport and marched into a bathroom, where his blindfold was removed. He was confronted by a group of Americans, talking to each other in sign language.

"A doctor approached him. He took Jabour’s blood pressure and then in jected him with a drug. Jabour began to feel dizzy. A black hood was placed over his head and he was led onto a military plane. His hands were cuffed behind his back. His legs were locked to a d-ring on the floor of the plane. 'I knew it was the end of my life,' Jabour said later.

"This is the story of a rendition, just one account from the hundreds of men who have been snatched, tortured and dehumanized in the post-911 wars."

The CIA Came at Night » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

How much did it cost the US taxpayer to torture Jabour for two and one-half years?
What does that say about the richest country in history's priorities?
What happens when the Pentagon and Wall Street can no longer afford to borrow enough money to torture innocent men on the opposite side of the planet?
It can happen here.