Humanitarian Relocation?

[Boston1]

Awesome response as usual, BRB, I gotta go reread art 36 IV GC

OK

Quote

• ARTICLE 36 [ Link ]
• Departures permitted under the foregoing Article [ Link ] shall be carried out in satisfactory conditions as regards safety, hygiene, sanitation and food. All costs in connection therewith, from the point of exit in the territory of the Detaining Power, shall be borne by the country of destination, or, in the case of accommodation in a neutral country, by the Power whose nationals are benefited. The practical details of such movements may, if necessary, be settled by special agreements between the Powers concerned.
• The foregoing shall not prejudice such special agreements as may be concluded between Parties to the conflict concerning the exchange and repatriation of their nationals in enemy hands.

End Quote

I thought so, I went over this in another thread.

highlighted in red

OK so I don't see where Israel is responsible for organizing where they go. Simply delivering them in good condition to the point of exit.

Highlighted in blue

"MAY if necessary" this doesn't say MUST. So again Israel is not bound by the Geneva Conventions to determine a destination simply to deliver the POWs or non protected persons to the point of exit in good condition.

I believe the last paragraph to be irrelevant as there is no requirement of any special prior agreements prior to repatriation or at least Israel enacting its right to repatriate.

Oh and I agree, Israel is not required to wait for one year to expire without hostilities prior to beginning the repatriation process. They may repatriate anytime they so desire.

Your last is a good question and it also takes into account that Israel isn't LEGALLY responsible to work out where these people end up.

From a political and economic standpoint, I don't know, I'd have to give it some thought. But I would reiterate that whatever the solution is, its not the responsibility of Israel to figure it out. Its only the responsibility of Israel to maintain a peaceful and prosperous environment for its own people. And the Arab Muslims largely have refused Israeli citizenship. IE shot themselves in the foot again. Leaving them subject to the Geneva Conventions as elements of a foreign power or refugees.

 

[Coyote]

There are over 4 million Palestinians - WB/Jeruselum/Gaza. Are you saying that Israel would annex all those territories and sort through all of those people? I imagine every kid who threw a stone wold be labeled a combatant, families would be broken up or forced to flee together. All so Israel could confiscate their property.

Remeniscent of the Trail of Tears.

Trail of tears ? really ?

The Native American experience has ZERO parallels with that of the Arab Muslims.

Having some experience in that realm maybe I should start a thread on it but Humanitarian Relocation is on the one hand only a fantasy, and on the other nothing like the Native American experience.

Another grand false equivalence.

PS
I wouldn't support a humanitarian relocation.

It would violate international law and make Israel look bad.

I would however support the strict application of the Geneva Conventions and put an end to this nonsense pretty quick.

I disagree, I think there are a lot of parallels, whether the ruling ideology was Zionism or Manifest Destiny.

The thing is - how are you going to sort through 4+ million people?

Switch and bait. We're not talking about the US government policies vs the Israeli policies. You claimed similarities between the pali's and the Native Americans.

And I'm against a general humanitarian relocation. I'd stick it only to Arab Muslim combatants.

Sorry dude. It's not switch and bait. Save that claim for another argument.

We're talking about population transfers.

 

[Coyote]

From the political and economic standpoint, where would you - practically speaking - expel the belligerent Hostile Arab Palestinians. No country, not even the Arab League countries would accept such transfers. These people are volatile and dangerous for a whole host of reasons; as well as an economic burden with no real prospect of making a productive contribution.

Most Respectfully,
R

What do you base that on Rocco? Palestinian immigrants to America have done well - the Palestinian-American community is economically thriving and certainly making a productive contribution as do Palestinian immigrants around the world.

 

[Coyote]

10 and 50 million? In the Partition of India and secession of Bangladesh? Estimates vary - upper estimate for the partition is approx 1 million. Upper estimate for the secession of Bangladesh is 3 million (that is considered highly inflated) - I went with an in the middle number of 2 million combined for the partition and later secession of Bangladesh since that was a result of the partition.

In the lead up to partition many millions of Indians were forcibly converted to islam, murdered or ran of their lands. The practise of Suti was brought back by the muslims as a terror tactic when they first raped all the women and then threw them onto fires after murdering their husbands, brothers and fathers. No different to what they had planned for the Jews in 1947, a pity they lost and ended up being shown as cowards.

Millions of Muslims were killed by Hindus. Millions of Hindus were killed by Muslims. Then there were the Sikhs.

Sati, though illegal, was still in practice at the time.

Both Muslims and Hindus practiced widespread rape and slaughter.

Nice bunch, whats that got to do with humanitarian relocation.

The partitian of India involved a mass relocation of populations (what is now euphamistically called "humanitarian relocation").

The deal is Israel has successfully outsmarted the UN and the world. All the Judaic people needed was a chance to collect unmolested in one place and its game on.

I for one am very proud to see a native peoples being so successful regardless of all the adversity.

And no, I wouldn't expel every Arab Muslim from Israel. I'd segregate then as specified by the Geneva Conventions.

I'm just waiting to hear your plan on how you are going to segregate 4 plus million people. Do rock throwing children count as combatants?

And I wonder where you would send them since their country of origin is most likely right where they are unless they are recent immigrants.

You already heard my plan in the "what if Israel stopped playing the nice guy thread. It hasn't changed.

And no, Israel isn't responsible for where they go. Its only responsibility is to expel them. They are within their legal rights to segregate combatants from noncombatants and turn over the combatants to a neutral third party. In this case the UNWRA has proven itself to be in violation of neutrality and so the defacto organization is the IRC.

NOT MY PROBLEM is the term of the day.

While I wouldn't demand ALL Arab Muslims be expelled, I would certainly support the strict adherence to the applicable articles of the Geneva Convention.

Oh and of course children can be combatants. Which also places their parents in a very precarious position. Are they assisting a combatant. How responsible for the actions of their children are they ? Around here parents are completely responsible for the actions of their children. Also the Geneva Conventions make it clear that whenever possible families are to be kept together. Ergo if a child is a combatant and their parents are responsible for them, they could be held responsible for a terrorist act and expelled along with the children or even the entire household. Depends on if they encouraged rock throwing or are suspected of encouraging rock throwing.

The Geneva Conventions are beautifully detailed

Ok, Trail of Tears it is. Unfortunately, there were no detailed Geneva Conventions in place back then.

 

[Coyote]

Oh and of course children can be combatants. Which also places their parents in a very precarious position. Are they assisting a combatant. How responsible for the actions of their children are they ? Around here parents are completely responsible for the actions of their children. Also the Geneva Conventions make it clear that whenever possible families are to be kept together. Ergo if a child is a combatant and their parents are responsible for them, they could be held responsible for a terrorist act and expelled along with the children or even the entire household. Depends on if they encouraged rock throwing or are suspected of encouraging rock throwing.

The Geneva Conventions are beautifully detailed

So...do Israeli settler children who throw stones get expelled or do they get the free pass they always get, being children of the occupying power?

 

[wrathbone]

This article was posted elsewhere but I think it deserves its own thread.

It opens:

Consideration should be given even to the heroic remedy of transfer of populations […] the hardship of moving is great, but it is less than the constant suffering of minorities and the constant recurrence of war – US president Herbert Hoover, 1943.

The relentless murder of Israeli Jews and the irreparable collapse of the peace process means that Israel and the international community must now consider the “heroic remedy” of population transfer. After decades of terrorism, it is clear that the majority of Arabs in Judea-Samaria and east Jerusalem are incapable of living alongside their Jewish neighbours. The failure of the Oslo Accords, the rampant criminality inside the Palestinian Authority, as well as decades of Islamic terrorism and anti-Semitic incitement, clearly demonstrate that Jews cannot afford the liberal luxury of uninhibited co-existence with an Arab population that clings to the fascistic and immoral ideology of Palestinianism.



Is there such a thing as "humanitarian relocation"? Should we consider this as a viable option to end the conflict? Do you think it would work? If you disagree with the details of the solution provided in the article, do you have other suggestions?

I wholeheartedly agree......isn't that what the globe presumed after the creation of Israel? Collective minds predicted the masses would migrate to other muslim nations -- Jordon, Egypt, SA,etc...and the few leftover muslim population would integrate and maintain peaceful relation ......there is something innately wrong with muslims....mental defection I presume...

 

[wrathbone]

Israeli children are smart enough to not throw stones.

 

[Coyote]

Israeli children are smart enough to not throw stones.

Funny.

They do.

And it's an old tradition.

Stone-throwing, an old Jewish custom - Features

 

[wrathbone]

Israeli children are smart enough to not throw stones.

Funny.

They do.

And it's an old tradition.

Stone-throwing, an old Jewish custom - Features

.....hmmmmmmm.....who do they throw stones at? travelling goat herders passing by?

 

[Coyote]

Israeli children are smart enough to not throw stones.

Funny.

They do.

And it's an old tradition.

Stone-throwing, an old Jewish custom - Features

.....hmmmmmmm.....who do they throw stones at? travelling goat herders passing by?

children

 

[Boston1]

There are over 4 million Palestinians - WB/Jeruselum/Gaza. Are you saying that Israel would annex all those territories and sort through all of those people? I imagine every kid who threw a stone wold be labeled a combatant, families would be broken up or forced to flee together. All so Israel could confiscate their property.

Remeniscent of the Trail of Tears.

Trail of tears ? really ?

The Native American experience has ZERO parallels with that of the Arab Muslims.

Having some experience in that realm maybe I should start a thread on it but Humanitarian Relocation is on the one hand only a fantasy, and on the other nothing like the Native American experience.

Another grand false equivalence.

PS
I wouldn't support a humanitarian relocation.

It would violate international law and make Israel look bad.

I would however support the strict application of the Geneva Conventions and put an end to this nonsense pretty quick.

I disagree, I think there are a lot of parallels, whether the ruling ideology was Zionism or Manifest Destiny.

The thing is - how are you going to sort through 4+ million people?

Switch and bait. We're not talking about the US government policies vs the Israeli policies. You claimed similarities between the pali's and the Native Americans.

And I'm against a general humanitarian relocation. I'd stick it only to Arab Muslim combatants.

Sorry dude. It's not switch and bait. Save that claim for another argument.

We're talking about population transfers.

Yes we are, but you brought up that same old tired false equivalency between Native Americans and Arab Muslims in Israel.

When called on it you switched the groups you were talking about to the Israeli gov. and the US gov.

Major bait and switch.

And yes we were discussing humanitarian relocation. Which I think we can agree is a bad idea. I don't think its reasonable to forcefully evict a peaceful inhabitant vs a combatant who I think can and should be forcefully removed.

 

[Coyote]

There are over 4 million Palestinians - WB/Jeruselum/Gaza. Are you saying that Israel would annex all those territories and sort through all of those people? I imagine every kid who threw a stone wold be labeled a combatant, families would be broken up or forced to flee together. All so Israel could confiscate their property.

Remeniscent of the Trail of Tears.

Trail of tears ? really ?

The Native American experience has ZERO parallels with that of the Arab Muslims.

Having some experience in that realm maybe I should start a thread on it but Humanitarian Relocation is on the one hand only a fantasy, and on the other nothing like the Native American experience.

Another grand false equivalence.

PS
I wouldn't support a humanitarian relocation.

It would violate international law and make Israel look bad.

I would however support the strict application of the Geneva Conventions and put an end to this nonsense pretty quick.

I disagree, I think there are a lot of parallels, whether the ruling ideology was Zionism or Manifest Destiny.

The thing is - how are you going to sort through 4+ million people?

Switch and bait. We're not talking about the US government policies vs the Israeli policies. You claimed similarities between the pali's and the Native Americans.

And I'm against a general humanitarian relocation. I'd stick it only to Arab Muslim combatants.

Sorry dude. It's not switch and bait. Save that claim for another argument.

We're talking about population transfers.

Yes we are, but you brought up that same old tired false equivalency between Native Americans and Arab Muslims in Israel.

It's accurate.

When called on it you switched the groups you were talking about to the Israeli gov. and the US gov.

It's relevant.

Major bait and switch.

Nope. Like the Partition of India, and other population transfers - it's relevant.

And yes we were discussing humanitarian relocation. Which I think we can agree is a bad idea. I don't think its reasonable to forcefully evict a peaceful inhabitant vs a combatant who I think can and should be forcefully removed.

I think it's difficult to determine who is a peaceful inhabitant and who is a combatant and the means to doing so is open to abuse. Of course, that's assuming Israel keeps all the territory it currently holds under occupation.

 

[wrathbone]

....oh............well throwing stones is the least of issue regarding Israel and palestine,anyway,coy...bit of a red herring, eh?

 

[Boston1]

Oh and of course children can be combatants. Which also places their parents in a very precarious position. Are they assisting a combatant. How responsible for the actions of their children are they ? Around here parents are completely responsible for the actions of their children. Also the Geneva Conventions make it clear that whenever possible families are to be kept together. Ergo if a child is a combatant and their parents are responsible for them, they could be held responsible for a terrorist act and expelled along with the children or even the entire household. Depends on if they encouraged rock throwing or are suspected of encouraging rock throwing.

The Geneva Conventions are beautifully detailed

So...do Israeli settler children who throw stones get expelled or do they get the free pass they always get, being children of the occupying power?

Of course not. That would be like saying the Israeli solders would also be expelled.

There's huge legal differences between the defending party and the aggressive party. Particularly when members of a foreign force remain as a defeated enemy within territory controlled by the defending party. They may stil be combatants and as such may be expelled.

 

[Coyote]

Oh and of course children can be combatants. Which also places their parents in a very precarious position. Are they assisting a combatant. How responsible for the actions of their children are they ? Around here parents are completely responsible for the actions of their children. Also the Geneva Conventions make it clear that whenever possible families are to be kept together. Ergo if a child is a combatant and their parents are responsible for them, they could be held responsible for a terrorist act and expelled along with the children or even the entire household. Depends on if they encouraged rock throwing or are suspected of encouraging rock throwing.

The Geneva Conventions are beautifully detailed

So...do Israeli settler children who throw stones get expelled or do they get the free pass they always get, being children of the occupying power?

Of course not. That would be like saying the Israeli solders would also be expelled.

There's huge legal differences between the defending party and the aggressive party. Particularly when members of a foreign force remain as a defeated enemy within territory controlled by the defending party. They may stil be combatants and as such may be expelled.

The "aggressive party" is also under occupaton. They are not members of a foreign force but local residents.

 

[Boston1]

Israeli children are smart enough to not throw stones.

Funny.

They do.

And it's an old tradition.

Stone-throwing, an old Jewish custom - Features

.....hmmmmmmm.....who do they throw stones at? travelling goat herders passing by?

Unfortunately some Israeli kids have been caught throwing stone at pali children. And the Israeli military ends up escorting the Arab children to school.

If I ever caught my kid doing that I'd thrash him to within an inch of his life. Give him time to heal and thrash him again. Be the last time my kid ever threw stones.

 

[wrathbone]

....local residents that lost wars post wwii
....kind of making circular communique, coy....

 

[wrathbone]

.....yeah, ..................they're out of control - palestinians

 

[Boston1]

Oh and of course children can be combatants. Which also places their parents in a very precarious position. Are they assisting a combatant. How responsible for the actions of their children are they ? Around here parents are completely responsible for the actions of their children. Also the Geneva Conventions make it clear that whenever possible families are to be kept together. Ergo if a child is a combatant and their parents are responsible for them, they could be held responsible for a terrorist act and expelled along with the children or even the entire household. Depends on if they encouraged rock throwing or are suspected of encouraging rock throwing.

The Geneva Conventions are beautifully detailed

So...do Israeli settler children who throw stones get expelled or do they get the free pass they always get, being children of the occupying power?

Of course not. That would be like saying the Israeli solders would also be expelled.

There's huge legal differences between the defending party and the aggressive party. Particularly when members of a foreign force remain as a defeated enemy within territory controlled by the defending party. They may stil be combatants and as such may be expelled.

The "aggressive party" is also under occupaton. They are not members of a foreign force but local residents.

You don't know that. What we do know is we have a large number of Arab Muslims who have never been vetted for status. Civilians, refugees, combatants. Until that vetting process takes place, nothing constructive can occur regarding a peaceful resolution to this conflict.

Also given that we don't know who among the Arab Muslims of Israel are Jordanian fighters remaining in Israel its not reasonable to say Israel is occupying their land.

There is also a strong argument to say that since all land west of the Jordan was available for the creation of an national Jewish homeland that its really not possible for Israel to be illegally occupying land intended for it in the first place.

 

[Coyote]

Oh and of course children can be combatants. Which also places their parents in a very precarious position. Are they assisting a combatant. How responsible for the actions of their children are they ? Around here parents are completely responsible for the actions of their children. Also the Geneva Conventions make it clear that whenever possible families are to be kept together. Ergo if a child is a combatant and their parents are responsible for them, they could be held responsible for a terrorist act and expelled along with the children or even the entire household. Depends on if they encouraged rock throwing or are suspected of encouraging rock throwing.

The Geneva Conventions are beautifully detailed

So...do Israeli settler children who throw stones get expelled or do they get the free pass they always get, being children of the occupying power?

Of course not. That would be like saying the Israeli solders would also be expelled.

There's huge legal differences between the defending party and the aggressive party. Particularly when members of a foreign force remain as a defeated enemy within territory controlled by the defending party. They may stil be combatants and as such may be expelled.

The "aggressive party" is also under occupaton. They are not members of a foreign force but local residents.

You don't know that. What we do know is we have a large number of Arab Muslims who have never been vetted for status. Civilians, refugees, combatants. Until that vetting process takes place, nothing constructive can occur regarding a peaceful resolution to this conflict.

Also given that we don't know who among the Arab Muslims of Israel are Jordanian fighters remaining in Israel its not reasonable to say Israel is occupying their land.

There is also a strong argument to say that since all land west of the Jordan was available for the creation of an national Jewish homeland that its really not possible for Israel to be illegally occupying land intended for it in the first place.

The Mandate was never law.