I Do Not Celebrate Thanksgiving

[Gunny]

There's no denying that whites killed Indians. Lots of them. But we did, and for hundreds of years, we held this land. That's the way the ball bounces in life. There are winners and losers. I'm just not very moved by appeals for them, though.

Look at America today. Now WHITES are being edged out. We are soon to be minorities in America. Are the Hispanics now taking over going to build museums for us, or give us reservations? I doubt it very much. In other words, if you want me to get all weepy for the Indians and give them all my tax dollars, don't hold your breath.

So screw it. Dish it out, take it, stop the crying. In this world, it's every race for itself. Whites get NO sympathy from anyone, Indians get tons. Boo hoo. I'm sick of whites accepting their position as the world's only evil, and "people of color" as pure good. It's not that simple. I am not advocating cruelty toward other groups, just realism. Blacks, for instance, like to bitch and cry about how we need to help them, but the minute they get the chance, they'd cut us. All of it boils down to taking advantage. Indians went from being fierce warriors to begging us for casino rights. Either way, they're just trying to get something out of us.

Fact is, those indians white settlers first encountered were killing each other off and killing whites too. That poor, noble redman was anything BUT sitting on top of a pony armed to the teeth and looking for scalps to prove his bravery and improve his standing in the tribe.

Yeah whites killed indians. Fortunately for whites, indians couldn't stop warring with each other long enough to gang up and blow us off the continent. The one time they did, Custer didn't fare too well. They were far and away superior individual warriors. The were beaten by attrition and the sheer number of whites.

 

[pegwinn]

Fact is, those indians white settlers first encountered were killing each other off and killing whites too. That poor, noble redman was anything BUT sitting on top of a pony armed to the teeth and looking for scalps to prove his bravery and improve his standing in the tribe. I didn't want to mention that and hurt the original posters feelings.

Yeah whites killed indians. Fortunately for whites, indians couldn't stop warring with each other long enough to gang up and blow us off the continent. The one time they did, Custer didn't fare too well. They were far and away superior individual warriors. The were beaten by attrition and the sheer number of whites. Teamwork is the key. The US Cavalry didn't go in for that one-on-one warrior crap. There was a Roman saying that "Warriors are meat on the table to soldiers".

Of course all of this discussion is likely to be labeled racism since we are not openly supportive of the Indians. Fact is that this scenario played out everywhere a dominant culture ran into a weaker one. It isn't racism, it's human nature.

 

[Gunny]

Of course all of this discussion is likely to be labeled racism since we are not openly supportive of the Indians. Fact is that this scenario played out everywhere a dominant culture ran into a weaker one. It isn't racism, it's human nature.

Agreed.

I really take no side on the issue. Yes, there were ruthless Euro-Americans who were absolutely ruthless and looked at indians as being subhuman and to be exterminated by the most expedient means. Custer was a perfect example of the contemptuous attitude with which indians were held, and he paid for underestimating them. Fetterman was even a bigger arrogant dumbass.

But then, those indians looked at whites as weak, being willing to trade for and/or buy what they could not make or take or themselves. It was, as you say, a clash of cultures.

The indians Europeans first encountered were no more the original inhabitants of this land than we are. They killed or drove off a people that were here before them.

One of the biggest transformations was the Coman-tse, or Commanche indians who were poor indians living on the edge of the mountains until they got their hands on a horse. Thereafter, the swept the plains, and it wasn't white men they were killing.

A lot has been lost to revisionist, PC history with emotional name-calling taking the place of actual fact. As you mentioned, it's been the history and nature of man that the strong, hungry people push out the complacent, weak and obsolete one.

The story of Thanksgiving presents only one picture. Adventurers/settlers first landing in the Carolinas and encoountering the Catawba weren't running into Tonto bearing a basket of corn and Tom Turkey.

 

[Taomon]

Thanksgiving is symbolic, in a real sense unrelated to what Americans at that time did to the Indians. And I agree completely that history should be taught as objectively as possible. But I would disagree with the elimination of symbolic elements that forge a sense of unity and TG does that.

I never said eliminate Thanksgiving, but the truth should be attached to it.

 

[Taomon]

Absurd. What should we do for the people the current indians killed, massacred and drove off the land? Ressurect them and give them free houses?

Now who is being absurd?

 

[Taomon]

I am not arguing that injustices did not occur. Anyone with a bit of integrity will readily recognise that bad things happened (and continue to happen) to many groups of people. No, I don't remember. I wasn't there. And that sir is the crux. History is immutable. We cannot change the factual occurrences any more than we can predict the future. I doubt that anyone alive today had anything to do with what you are terming the "invasion".

No, but there are scars that run deep. Maybe not for you because you identify with your white heritage more than your Cherokee heritage. Maybe you do not have relatives who you can talk to about this, I did for a while. They are dead now. But their hearts changed mine. And I am not alone.

Again, some could say the same of the AI tribes. Some have built up and used that land for a purpose. Some remain in squalor because they refuse to stand up as a group and do something. ITA that treaties were made and broken on both sides. ITA that in the later years the expansion was a war unto the death. The Indians lost. Yet, instead of enslavement or genocide they were given land.

They were given land that is not fertile enough for crops. They were given land with no buffalo. They were given land that once any resources such as gold or uranium was found, would be encroached on by industrialists and lobbyists.

A lot of Indians live in abject poverty. Have you ever been to Montana? Kind of hard to find a job on the res. Try walking to a good paying job. Not to mention the bigotry that still exists. It is easy to hide behind the old argument that one must rise above the poverty that one is subject to, unless you happen to be that one.

Over time the attitudes have changed. Where AI were once openly told to "get back on the reservation" they are now welcomed into a society that has matured so that those actions are condemned as unlawful and immoral. That same society is also still paying reparations in the form of taxes used to compensate them individually and as a group.

That has been changing too. In fact, many tribes do not get that money anymore. the BIA has been disassembled. And bigotry still exists in many parts of the country.

Also, out of all the ethnic groups within the USA only the AI and Native Hawaiians are subsidised based on ethnic purity. As I said, I have a wee drop of Cherokee. It isn't enough to garner any .gov money. A Marine I once worked with was 3/4 Seminole (IIRC) and received a check every month. Blacks, subjected to slavery don't get that. Chinese coolie descendants don't get it. Neither do the kids and grand kids of Japanese Americans interred during WWII. The largest actual reservation based on ethnicity is the "forbidden isle" in the Hawaiian Islands.

Blacks, Chinese and Japanese were not subject to brutal genocide. Their plights were horrible for sure, but theirs was not a slaughter on the scale of the Native American Indians. Sorry, they do not deserve the stipend as much as the Natives do.

Affordable houses are fine and there are multiple .gov programs in place to make that happen. I would say that decrepit reservations are the fault of the folks living there. IF your house is falling apart it's the homeowners responsibility. Or, are you saying the Indians are the equivalent of renters and thus not responsible?

Once again, many Indians live in abject poverty. Third world conditions. It is easy to judge from your home in the burbs, but until you walk a mile in their shoes, you cannot judge them.

Just Curious but how has that effected you personally? I have no issue with making good to the people individually wronged. I doubt that you are one of them. You cannot raise the dead, you cannot change the past, and you cannot hold the son accountable for sins of the father. The best I can do is ensure that I do not repeat history.

It is easy to hide behind this sentiment. It makes it easy to not be involved emotionally, monetarily or as a nation. I am deeply affected by the lies taught to our children. My family on my mother's side were deeply affected by all of this and they shared that with me. No I was not there when the countless massacres happened. But I carry the weight. Why do you not? That is the curious thing after all. This is your blood too brother.

I don't want money, I want the truth to be taught so that conversations like this are unnecessary. I want to elevate my Indian brothers and sisters. By that I mean, maybe we should eliminate the reservation system, or maybe we should allow it for the older people. Maybe we should provide very inexpensive houses to Natives away from the res.

But we also should not wipe out their heritage. We should honor it during November.

You are right that I am uncaring about the tribal plights. I am also the guy who believes that you are an American with all the rights, risks, and responsibilities therein. So, since you are an American, feel free to lobby as you wish for the cause of your choice.

Thanks, I will.
But: Are you sending a check to Israel?[/QUOTE] Why would I do that? The Israeli government is corrupt and treating the Palestinians exactly like the US did to the Native American Indians.

You could say that Palestinians are my brothers.

 

[Taomon]

Fact is, those indians white settlers first encountered were killing each other off and killing whites too. That poor, noble redman was anything BUT sitting on top of a pony armed to the teeth and looking for scalps to prove his bravery and improve his standing in the tribe.

Yeah whites killed indians. Fortunately for whites, indians couldn't stop warring with each other long enough to gang up and blow us off the continent. The one time they did, Custer didn't fare too well. They were far and away superior individual warriors. The were beaten by attrition and the sheer number of whites.

Nice re-write of history. Did you have a hand in writing the public school texts books on history as well?

Yeah, the Indian genocide was all the Indians own fault and nothing to do with greed or avarice on the part of the white man.

If you believe that one, I have a bridge to sell you.

 

[Taomon]

Of course all of this discussion is likely to be labeled racism since we are not openly supportive of the Indians. Fact is that this scenario played out everywhere a dominant culture ran into a weaker one. It isn't racism, it's human nature.

It is only racism when you despise another race and make disparaging remarks. You can disagree and not support the INdians. That does not make you a racist.

Some of yours and gunnys remarks are borderline racist though.

 

[trobinett]

Posted by Taomon:

You could say that Palestinians are my brothers.

A true bleeding heart liberal. I thought we rounded all you dreamer's up, and sent you off to Wonderland?

You sure have a skewed way at looking at the history of civilization Taomon.

Darwinism is the way of the world, always has been, always will be.

Things go in circle's, we DO repeat history.

The Indian's shall rise again, as will the Palestinians, and I'm sure your concern, and any donation's, will help...

 

[Taomon]

A true bleeding heart liberal. I thought we rounded all you dreamer's up, and sent you off to Wonderland?

Why, because I will not support Israel wiping out the Palestinian people?

 

[trobinett]

Why, because I will not support Israel wiping out the Palestinian people?

No, because Israel has no National agenda to "wipe out the Palestinians".

Yea, yea, I know, it's a conspiracy..........

 

[Taomon]

No, because Israel has no National agenda to "wipe out the Palestinians".

Yes they do. The people of Israeli may or may not individually, but the machinations of that state are very clear in their mission.

 

[trobinett]

Yes they do. The people of Israeli may or may not individually, but the machinations of that state are very clear in their mission.

And, YOU know this how?

 

[Gunny]

Now who is being absurd?

It's no more absurd than what it responded to.

 

[Gunny]

Nice re-write of history. Did you have a hand in writing the public school texts books on history as well?

Yeah, the Indian genocide was all the Indians own fault and nothing to do with greed or avarice on the part of the white man.

If you believe that one, I have a bridge to sell you.

There's no rewrite or history on my part. You whiney apologists are the ones inconvenienced by the truth.

The fact is, you have no rebuttal other than a personal attack so you wouldn't know whether I was correct or not.

 

[Gunny]

It is only racism when you despise another race and make disparaging remarks. You can disagree and not support the INdians. That does not make you a racist.

Some of yours and gunnys remarks are borderline racist though.

Don't start that whiney-ass accusation of racism with me, knucklehead. It's a dismissive excuse attempting to cover the fact you have no argument to present.

I call things what they are, period. Indians are indians and ignorant whiners are ignorant whiners. Some can be both.

Come on back when you've educated yourself to the topic.

 

[Shogun]

we could go back and review some quotes by noted zionist superstars like David Ben-guron... if you people don't think that zionists jews have a gameplan that includes marginalization of pals then, like I said, let's take a look at some specific words out of the mouths of jews pulling for a state of israel.

now, that being said, I decided to celebrate Thanksgiving this year by having Thanksgiving Tacos! You know, a symbol of the upcoming latino majority. Personally, I don't have a problem with a dominant non-white ethnicity in America. I do, however, find it hilarious to see people who can disregard natives and pals bitching about such a thing as an eventual non-white majority. Rich, indeed.

 

[Gunny]

we could go back and review some quotes by noted zionist superstars like David Ben-guron... if you people don't think that zionists jews have a gameplan that includes marginalization of pals then, like I said, let's take a look at some specific words out of the mouths of jews pulling for a state of israel.

now, that being said, I decided to celebrate Thanksgiving this year by having Thanksgiving Tacos! You know, a symbol of the upcoming latino majority. Personally, I don't have a problem with a dominant non-white ethnicity in America. I do, however, find it hilarious to see people who can disregard natives and pals bitching about such a thing as an eventual non-white majority. Rich, indeed.

Using words that were spoken half-a-century ago really don't amount to much of an argument. Nor does using words out of context. In its early days, Israel was fighting for its existence with no help.

Palestinian Arabs are not fighting for their existence. They can go freely anwhere in the Middle East they wish. How many gnerations of homelessness and strife have these Arabs brought upon themselves because they just refuse to get over it and move on? They could already be resettled and raising families and have jobs. Instead, they choose to wallow in squallor and hatred.

I eat tacos for breakfast every morning just about. Carne guisada or asada is good.

 

[Shogun]

on no, using words that are historic in their meaning and eventual fruition is just as valid with Dave as it is with Adolph. There is no context for rationalizing Ben-gurion's words and more than you will accept the same from a pre-ww2 german complaining about the context of THEIR apathy.

Yes, the pals are fighting for their existence. You might as well have just said that the germans were also fighting for THEIR existence AND gave the jews a full blown option to leave any time they wanted. REFUSED TO MOVE ON, indeed. If we don't accept the excuse of the germans then consistency requires the same for israel.

Ignoring the very words of one of the original zionists within arms reach of an israel won't change the fact of the same motivation provided us with human refugees outside of aparthied wall in israel. Take the soft glove off and put on the same hard glove you use to swing at nazis and commies and everyone else whose record of human abuse is obvious.


Cant say that I've ever had breakfast food mexican style. But, I sure did love the Thankgiving tacos and Christmas bbqd ribs!

 

[Gunny]

on no, using words that are historic in their meaning and eventual fruition is just as valid with Dave as it is with Adolph. There is no context for rationalizing Ben-gurion's words and more than you will accept the same from a pre-ww2 german complaining about the context of THEIR apathy.

Yes, the pals are fighting for their existence. You might as well have just said that the germans were also fighting for THEIR existence AND gave the jews a full blown option to leave any time they wanted. REFUSED TO MOVE ON, indeed. If we don't accept the excuse of the germans then consistency requires the same for israel.

Ignoring the very words of one of the original zionists within arms reach of an israel won't change the fact of the same motivation provided us with human refugees outside of aparthied wall in israel. Take the soft glove off and put on the same hard glove you use to swing at nazis and commies and everyone else whose record of human abuse is obvious.


Cant say that I've ever had breakfast food mexican style. But, I sure did love the Thankgiving tacos and Christmas bbqd ribs!

I'm not wearing any soft gloves. There is NO comparison between the Israeli's and Nazis though. That's stretching it a bit far. The land was granted to Israel through the Balfour Agreement. Under the rules of the day, it was completely legal.

As I have continually asked, when you start trying to right perceived wrongs, where do you begin and end? With only those causes you embrace? Or do we right them all the way back to every single living person Earth trying to stand on the same square foot of land?

The world and its history has been shaped through migration and conquest. It's STILL going on in the Middle East and Africa.

I will continue to go back to the base argument though. If Europeans, to include GB and the US were not prejudiced against Jews, there would be no need for Israel. There would have been no "Jewish problem."

Or, if it pleases, you could say that had the Ottoman Empire not aligned itself with Germany during WWI and consequently been dismantled, there would be no Israel.

How'd this get to be another Israel Palestine thread anyway? I was getting called racist for calling indians indians, and BAM ... sidetrack.