I find it very disturbing

[Seawytch]

What civil rights were decided state by state at that level? Desegregation? Nope. The end of anti miscegenation laws? Nope.

A majority of the SCOTUS will decide Chickenfish.

Massachusetts outlawed Slavery (in its Constitution) before ANY of the European Powers.

Several other States had also outlawed slavery in their Constitutions before France or Britain or Spain.

The problem that caused the Civil War was that there was going to be enough Free States soon after 1860 that a Constitutional Amendment would have peacefully ended slavery but dimocrap scum in the South decided to attack Fort Sumter and secede from the Union rather than allow the process set up by the Founding Fathers to proceed.

It's how dimocrap scum work.

You just don't know history. Or much else, for that matter

Your version of history did not change a thing I said. Civil rights have not been granted by majority vote, they were "forced" on an unwilling public.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

That the threads that get the most posts are the ones on gays. I guess that issue divides the US like no other issue. There are very strong feelings on both sides, and both sides sometimes make good arguments.

The only way to resolve it is to let the people speak by voting. We need either a national referendum on gay marriage or a constitutional amendment on it. Let the people decide and lets all live by that decision.

Its one of the most profound civil rights issues in about a generation. And the USSC is hearing cases on the subject in a matter of weeks.

Of course its being discussed.

Homosexuality is not a civil right. It's a sin. To make gay marriage legal would be an abomination before God because America was dedicated to God when George Washington was President. America is already under the judgment of God. Are you looking to speed it up?

 

[bodecea]

changing ones mind is totally different from putting forth two sets of lies for political gain. Obozo didn't change his mind, he changed his rhetoric to match what he thought was the political will of his contingency.

So you say. And why do you think the political will of the voters of the U.S. has changed? Maybe that's what you should be asking yourself....and why you are upset that a President would change to fit such a political will (as if that's a bad thing)

it hasn't. But if you think it has, lets put it to a vote in each state and let the people decide. Thats the way this democratic republic is supposed to work-------------the people, not a few unelected judges.

if you want national gay marriage then lets have a constitutional amendment to clear it up once and for all. put it to a vote and see if 38 states will ratify it. You claim to have a majority, so lets do it.

You want to put civil rights to a vote, eh? You've lost and you know it....and now you are flailing. Not to worry, gays having the right to marry will not take away any of your rights.

We shall have to wait and see. Whatever decision the SCOTUS comes up with will become law. It should be interesting.

So SCOTUS can make law? Really?

SCOTUS can strike down laws.

 

[Edgetho]

Marriage IS a civil right...you can pout about it all day long, but it is. Ergo, unless you've got some compelling legal reason why including gays in that civil right causes harm........the government cannot deny that civil right to gay citizens.

So....rant all you want. I'm sure, in some way, it makes you feel like you've got some say in this matter.

Marriage is NOT a Civil Right. Just because some blockheaded Judge says it is, doesn't mean it is.

Dred Scott.

As to the harm/gays question, it is incumbent on your side to show that allowing gay marriage will NOT cause the harm you address.

The burden is on your side.

Here's what your side is doing wrong.....

This is a new phenomenon. Big time and a big, big way.

Maybe it isn't to you. Cool, I can understand that. But here's a clue -- Try looking outside your own little circle once in a while and understand how the rest of us live

We don't think about gays or gay marriage that much.

If we do, it's because we're forced to think about it.

So we will. We should think about it.

But here's what you're doing wrong......

It took us 5,000 years to end slavery.

It took another 5,000 years to end the poor treatment of women (and that isn't working too well everywhere)

It took 2,700 years to give women the vote.

And you want the world to grant your wish to change the way it thinks about gays in ten years?

You're pushing too hard. You're doing more harm to your cause than good. You may think you're winning small victories but you're not. You're setting your cause back by being bullying and aggressive.

Trust me. You better learn to slow down and savor each little victory as it comes

 

[Redfish]

it hasn't. But if you think it has, lets put it to a vote in each state and let the people decide. Thats the way this democratic republic is supposed to work-------------the people, not a few unelected judges.

if you want national gay marriage then lets have a constitutional amendment to clear it up once and for all. put it to a vote and see if 38 states will ratify it. You claim to have a majority, so lets do it.

You want to put civil rights to a vote, eh? You've lost and you know it....and now you are flailing. Not to worry, gays having the right to marry will not take away any of your rights.

gay marriage is not a civil right. there is no mention of gay marriage in the constitution, its amendments, or the civil rights act of 1965. The only way to resolve it is via a constitutional amendment.

Any other attempted resolution will open the door for polygamy of all forms, sibling marriage, parent child marriage, and any other deviation humans can come up with.

why do you fear a vote of the people?

Marriage IS a civil right...you can pout about it all day long, but it is. Ergo, unless you've got some compelling legal reason why including gays in that civil right causes harm........the government cannot deny that civil right to gay citizens.

So....rant all you want. I'm sure, in some way, it makes you feel like you've got some say in this matter.

Using that logic then polygamy and sibling marriage are also civil rights. If a civil rights case can be made for two people of the same sex to marry then the exact same case can be made for 3 man and 4 women to marry. The legal and civil rights arguments are EXACTLY the same.

The only way is to have a constitutional amendment the limits marriage to two people who are not blood relatives.

So I ask you again, why do you fear a vote of the people?

Then, work through the courts to make your case.

my case has been made by 3000 years of human history, its you who needs to make your case. to the people, not the courts.

 

[bodecea]

That the threads that get the most posts are the ones on gays. I guess that issue divides the US like no other issue. There are very strong feelings on both sides, and both sides sometimes make good arguments.

The only way to resolve it is to let the people speak by voting. We need either a national referendum on gay marriage or a constitutional amendment on it. Let the people decide and lets all live by that decision.

Its one of the most profound civil rights issues in about a generation. And the USSC is hearing cases on the subject in a matter of weeks.

Of course its being discussed.

Homosexuality is not a civil right. It's a sin. To make gay marriage legal would be an abomination before God because America was dedicated to God when George Washington was President. America is already under the judgment of God. Are you looking to speed it up?

In your so-called religion, perhaps. But we have secular laws...and are not ruled by your (or anyone else's) religion. Just like we don't have laws against the sin of eating shellfish.

 

[NoTeaPartyPleez]

That the threads that get the most posts are the ones on gays. I guess that issue divides the US like no other issue. .....

That's because Americans have it so good in this country they have the leisure to concern themselves with who is fucking who and where. It's that simple.

If Obama stood up to the podium and announced a "Shock and Awe" bombing campaign on Tehran starting tomorrow, stupid conservatives would snap their heads so fast they'd break their necks.

 

[Redfish]

So you say. And why do you think the political will of the voters of the U.S. has changed? Maybe that's what you should be asking yourself....and why you are upset that a President would change to fit such a political will (as if that's a bad thing)

it hasn't. But if you think it has, lets put it to a vote in each state and let the people decide. Thats the way this democratic republic is supposed to work-------------the people, not a few unelected judges.

if you want national gay marriage then lets have a constitutional amendment to clear it up once and for all. put it to a vote and see if 38 states will ratify it. You claim to have a majority, so lets do it.

You want to put civil rights to a vote, eh? You've lost and you know it....and now you are flailing. Not to worry, gays having the right to marry will not take away any of your rights.

We shall have to wait and see. Whatever decision the SCOTUS comes up with will become law. It should be interesting.

So SCOTUS can make law? Really?

SCOTUS can strike down laws.

yes, but the other poster said that whatever SCOTUS decides would BECOME law. SCOTUS can only rule on the constitutionality of existing law, they cannot make new law.

 

[bodecea]

Marriage IS a civil right...you can pout about it all day long, but it is. Ergo, unless you've got some compelling legal reason why including gays in that civil right causes harm........the government cannot deny that civil right to gay citizens.

So....rant all you want. I'm sure, in some way, it makes you feel like you've got some say in this matter.

Marriage is NOT a Civil Right. Just because some blockheaded Judge says it is, doesn't mean it is.

Dred Scott.

As to the harm/gays question, it is incumbent on your side to show that allowing gay marriage will NOT cause the harm you address.

The burden is on your side.

Here's what your side is doing wrong.....

This is a new phenomenon. Big time and a big, big way.

Maybe it isn't to you. Cool, I can understand that. But here's a clue -- Try looking outside your own little circle once in a while and understand how the rest of us live

We don't think about gays or gay marriage that much.

If we do, it's because we're forced to think about it.

So we will. We should think about it.

But here's what you're doing wrong......

It took us 5,000 years to end slavery.

It took another 5,000 years to end the poor treatment of women (and that isn't working too well everywhere)

It took 2,700 years to give women the vote.

And you want the world to grant your wish to change the way it thinks about gays in ten years?

You're pushing too hard. You're doing more harm to your cause than good. You may think you're winning small victories but you're not. You're setting your cause back by being bullying and aggressive.

Trust me. You better learn to slow down and savor each little victory as it comes

Marriage is most definitely a civil right as has been determined in several SCOTUS decisions. Not just one, but several. You may not like it, in this case....heck you may not have liked in the case of Loving v. Virginia....but it is. It's established case las.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

The truth is America has come to this place and time because the Church stopped preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and began filling the time with entertainment, non - challenging topics - no longer preaching on hell, the wrath of God, the commandments of God, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Soon the church began inviting sin into the church - and the world came flooding in. There has been so much lost it is hard to know where to begin but truly there wouldn't be a discussion such as this going on today had the Gospel been preached from the pulpits in the days / years / decades before.

 

[Redfish]

That the threads that get the most posts are the ones on gays. I guess that issue divides the US like no other issue. There are very strong feelings on both sides, and both sides sometimes make good arguments.

The only way to resolve it is to let the people speak by voting. We need either a national referendum on gay marriage or a constitutional amendment on it. Let the people decide and lets all live by that decision.

Its one of the most profound civil rights issues in about a generation. And the USSC is hearing cases on the subject in a matter of weeks.

Of course its being discussed.

Homosexuality is not a civil right. It's a sin. To make gay marriage legal would be an abomination before God because America was dedicated to God when George Washington was President. America is already under the judgment of God. Are you looking to speed it up?

In your so-called religion, perhaps. But we have secular laws...and are not ruled by your (or anyone else's) religion. Just like we don't have laws against the sin of eating shellfish.

so-called? have your read the declaration of independence, the constitution, looked at our money which says " in God we trust" ? Whether you like it or not, this country was founded on judeo/Christian principles.

 

[Redfish]

Marriage IS a civil right...you can pout about it all day long, but it is. Ergo, unless you've got some compelling legal reason why including gays in that civil right causes harm........the government cannot deny that civil right to gay citizens.

So....rant all you want. I'm sure, in some way, it makes you feel like you've got some say in this matter.

Marriage is NOT a Civil Right. Just because some blockheaded Judge says it is, doesn't mean it is.

Dred Scott.

As to the harm/gays question, it is incumbent on your side to show that allowing gay marriage will NOT cause the harm you address.

The burden is on your side.

Here's what your side is doing wrong.....

This is a new phenomenon. Big time and a big, big way.

Maybe it isn't to you. Cool, I can understand that. But here's a clue -- Try looking outside your own little circle once in a while and understand how the rest of us live

We don't think about gays or gay marriage that much.

If we do, it's because we're forced to think about it.

So we will. We should think about it.

But here's what you're doing wrong......

It took us 5,000 years to end slavery.

It took another 5,000 years to end the poor treatment of women (and that isn't working too well everywhere)

It took 2,700 years to give women the vote.

And you want the world to grant your wish to change the way it thinks about gays in ten years?

You're pushing too hard. You're doing more harm to your cause than good. You may think you're winning small victories but you're not. You're setting your cause back by being bullying and aggressive.

Trust me. You better learn to slow down and savor each little victory as it comes

Marriage is most definitely a civil right as has been determined in several SCOTUS decisions. Not just one, but several. You may not like it, in this case....heck you may not have liked in the case of Loving v. Virginia....but it is. It's established case las.

Loving was interracial marriage, not two people of the same sex. Loving does not apply to gay marriage in any way.

 

[bodecea]

You want to put civil rights to a vote, eh? You've lost and you know it....and now you are flailing. Not to worry, gays having the right to marry will not take away any of your rights.

gay marriage is not a civil right. there is no mention of gay marriage in the constitution, its amendments, or the civil rights act of 1965. The only way to resolve it is via a constitutional amendment.

Any other attempted resolution will open the door for polygamy of all forms, sibling marriage, parent child marriage, and any other deviation humans can come up with.

why do you fear a vote of the people?

Marriage IS a civil right...you can pout about it all day long, but it is. Ergo, unless you've got some compelling legal reason why including gays in that civil right causes harm........the government cannot deny that civil right to gay citizens.

So....rant all you want. I'm sure, in some way, it makes you feel like you've got some say in this matter.

Using that logic then polygamy and sibling marriage are also civil rights. If a civil rights case can be made for two people of the same sex to marry then the exact same case can be made for 3 man and 4 women to marry. The legal and civil rights arguments are EXACTLY the same.

The only way is to have a constitutional amendment the limits marriage to two people who are not blood relatives.

So I ask you again, why do you fear a vote of the people?

Then, work through the courts to make your case.

my case has been made by 3000 years of human history, its you who needs to make your case. to the people, not the courts.

3000 years of human history. Oh yeah...let's do things they way they did it 3000 years ago. THAT's a selling argument, Redminnow.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

That the threads that get the most posts are the ones on gays. I guess that issue divides the US like no other issue. .....

That's because Americans have it so good in this country they have the leisure to concern themselves with who is fucking who and where. It's that simple.

If Obama stood up to the podium and announced a "Shock and Awe" bombing campaign on Tehran starting tomorrow, stupid conservatives would snap their heads so fast they'd break their necks.

If Americans have it so good in America why are more Americans leaving the USA for other countries now more than any other time in our history?

 

[bodecea]

That the threads that get the most posts are the ones on gays. I guess that issue divides the US like no other issue. There are very strong feelings on both sides, and both sides sometimes make good arguments.

The only way to resolve it is to let the people speak by voting. We need either a national referendum on gay marriage or a constitutional amendment on it. Let the people decide and lets all live by that decision.

Its one of the most profound civil rights issues in about a generation. And the USSC is hearing cases on the subject in a matter of weeks.

Of course its being discussed.

Homosexuality is not a civil right. It's a sin. To make gay marriage legal would be an abomination before God because America was dedicated to God when George Washington was President. America is already under the judgment of God. Are you looking to speed it up?

In your so-called religion, perhaps. But we have secular laws...and are not ruled by your (or anyone else's) religion. Just like we don't have laws against the sin of eating shellfish.

so-called? have your read the declaration of independence, the constitution, looked at our money which says " in God we trust" ? Whether you like it or not, this country was founded on judeo/Christian principles.

Blah blah blah....this is a secular country with secular laws. Deal with it.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Marriage IS a civil right...you can pout about it all day long, but it is. Ergo, unless you've got some compelling legal reason why including gays in that civil right causes harm........the government cannot deny that civil right to gay citizens.

So....rant all you want. I'm sure, in some way, it makes you feel like you've got some say in this matter.

Marriage is NOT a Civil Right. Just because some blockheaded Judge says it is, doesn't mean it is.

Dred Scott.

As to the harm/gays question, it is incumbent on your side to show that allowing gay marriage will NOT cause the harm you address.

The burden is on your side.

Here's what your side is doing wrong.....

This is a new phenomenon. Big time and a big, big way.

Maybe it isn't to you. Cool, I can understand that. But here's a clue -- Try looking outside your own little circle once in a while and understand how the rest of us live

We don't think about gays or gay marriage that much.

If we do, it's because we're forced to think about it.

So we will. We should think about it.

But here's what you're doing wrong......

It took us 5,000 years to end slavery.

It took another 5,000 years to end the poor treatment of women (and that isn't working too well everywhere)

It took 2,700 years to give women the vote.

And you want the world to grant your wish to change the way it thinks about gays in ten years?

You're pushing too hard. You're doing more harm to your cause than good. You may think you're winning small victories but you're not. You're setting your cause back by being bullying and aggressive.

Trust me. You better learn to slow down and savor each little victory as it comes

Marriage is most definitely a civil right as has been determined in several SCOTUS decisions. Not just one, but several. You may not like it, in this case....heck you may not have liked in the case of Loving v. Virginia....but it is. It's established case las.

Loving was interracial marriage, not two people of the same sex. Loving does not apply to gay marriage in any way.

Absolutely. There is no sin against interracial marriages. Moses married Zipporah ( a black woman) and I believe the LORD found his wife for him and knew she would be a great blessing to him. Race is of God -created of God - while - homosexuality is not.

 

[dblack]

Then just what is it they are going to collaborate on?

Anything they want. Why do you ask?

Ok. Then the problem is solved. Nothing prevents people from collaborating.

If you say so. I seem to be missing your point.

I don't see how. You want people to be able to voluntarily collaborate and I am pointing out that nothing stops them from doing so. So it appears we have no issue. We are in agreement.

But I never claimed anything was stopping them from doing so, so I'm not clear what you're talking about. I assume you're going back to this post:

I really think we're discussing two fundamentally incompatible conceptions of government. And the main difference between the two is the nominal purpose. In my preferred conception, the purpose of government is to maximally protect our inalienable individual rights, leaving the people free to form the society they want through voluntary collaboration.

The fact that nothing prevents people from voluntarily collaborating was actually my point. I raised it in response to the implication that the job of government is to "manage" society and that without state mandates none of our goals for society can be realized.

 

[Redfish]

That the threads that get the most posts are the ones on gays. I guess that issue divides the US like no other issue. There are very strong feelings on both sides, and both sides sometimes make good arguments.

The only way to resolve it is to let the people speak by voting. We need either a national referendum on gay marriage or a constitutional amendment on it. Let the people decide and lets all live by that decision.

Its one of the most profound civil rights issues in about a generation. And the USSC is hearing cases on the subject in a matter of weeks.

Of course its being discussed.

Homosexuality is not a civil right. It's a sin. To make gay marriage legal would be an abomination before God because America was dedicated to God when George Washington was President. America is already under the judgment of God. Are you looking to speed it up?

In your so-called religion, perhaps. But we have secular laws...and are not ruled by your (or anyone else's) religion. Just like we don't have laws against the sin of eating shellfish.

so-called? have your read the declaration of independence, the constitution, looked at our money which says " in God we trust" ? Whether you like it or not, this country was founded on judeo/Christian principles.

Blah blah blah....this is a secular country with secular laws. Deal with it.

our secular laws are based on judeo/Christian principles of right and wrong. Deal with it.

 

[bodecea]

That the threads that get the most posts are the ones on gays. I guess that issue divides the US like no other issue. .....

That's because Americans have it so good in this country they have the leisure to concern themselves with who is fucking who and where. It's that simple.

If Obama stood up to the podium and announced a "Shock and Awe" bombing campaign on Tehran starting tomorrow, stupid conservatives would snap their heads so fast they'd break their necks.

If Americans have it so good in America why are more Americans leaving the USA for other countries now more than any other time in our history?

Good, maybe we can get rid of some of this freeway gridlock.

 

[PratchettFan]

changing ones mind is totally different from putting forth two sets of lies for political gain. Obozo didn't change his mind, he changed his rhetoric to match what he thought was the political will of his contingency.

So you say. And why do you think the political will of the voters of the U.S. has changed? Maybe that's what you should be asking yourself....and why you are upset that a President would change to fit such a political will (as if that's a bad thing)

it hasn't. But if you think it has, lets put it to a vote in each state and let the people decide. Thats the way this democratic republic is supposed to work-------------the people, not a few unelected judges.

if you want national gay marriage then lets have a constitutional amendment to clear it up once and for all. put it to a vote and see if 38 states will ratify it. You claim to have a majority, so lets do it.

You want to put civil rights to a vote, eh? You've lost and you know it....and now you are flailing. Not to worry, gays having the right to marry will not take away any of your rights.

We shall have to wait and see. Whatever decision the SCOTUS comes up with will become law. It should be interesting.

So SCOTUS can make law? Really?

Yes. That is in the Constitution.