I Need Permission?

[Markle]

John Locke | Natural Law, Natural Rights, and American Constitutionalism

"For contemporary Americans, one reason for studying Locke (together with Hobbes) is to understand the character of liberalism. A liberal system such as ours enshrines individual rights, but its health depends upon people exercising those rights responsibly. It depends on people taking seriously their duty to respect the rights of others. Many observers believe that, while Americans today are eager to claim their rights, too few are willing to shoulder the attendant responsibilities. Is a rights-based society doomed to degenerate into simple selfishness? Or is it possible to construct a rights philosophy with a robust element of responsibility built into it? Must such a philosophy place natural law above individual right? Must this law have a religious dimension? These are questions that should send us back to Hobbes, Locke, and the architects of the American Constitution."

I don't feel the stance of extreme 2A supporters is responsible or respects the rights of others.
Of course we made up our "right" to arm our citizenry without exception. It was an extension of the right to life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness, an INTERPRETATION which we are still arguing today. That's what happens when you get into philosophies--there can be no right or wrong answer, only endless arguments.

I do love how it's called liberalism. Pretty ironic, hey?

Careful.....when you bring up Locke you should know what he says.....

John Locke: Second Treatise of Civil Government: Chapter 19

Sec. 232. Whosoever uses force without right, as every one does in society, who does it without law, puts himself into a state of war with those against whom he so uses it; and in that state all former ties are cancelled, all other rights cease, and every one has a right to defend himself, and to resist the aggressor.

And right there he supports the right to self defense.....even with a gun....

Allow me to repeat.....

and every one has a right to defend himself, and to resist the aggressor.

So, the Americans assembled on 05/04/1970 when the they were gunned down made the mistake of not having brought firearms. Four people would not have died.

If it's unconstitutional, why don't you take it to the Supreme Court? Probably someone has already tried. Personally, I have run into quite a few people I hope to hell don't have a "right" any longer to a gun. You may be born with that right, but some people's actions deserve taking that right away. How does that get monitored except by registration, which requires time and money, necessitating a fee?
It isn't the law abiding gun owners who screw things up for the rest of us, but screw it up they do. And we pay for it. I don't see any way around it.

If a state or city government can require that you buy a right. Which ones can you afford and for how long?

How do we make it harder for violent criminals and violently mentally ill people from buying guns otherwise? Okay, get the registration done by some centralized, independent bureau and have the cost of it absorbed in the cost of the weapon? So people just don't realize they're paying for it?

All of the stupid arguments you can make for gun registration can be just as easily made for knife registration.

Go kill some innocent shoppers in the mall parking lot with a knife. Then, with your knife, go kill a few teenagers on the sidewalk while riding in a moving vehicle. Try killing someone 50 yards away with your knife. See how far you get without being stopped or getting really tired. Guns = effortless killing.

Why do you demand MORE violent crime in our country? Really, specifically, why do you want to INCREASE violent crime in our country?

I can only presume that you are well aware that most Western European countries, along with Australia, have significantly higher violent crime rates than we do here in the United States. Obviously, it is going from bad to worse due to the millions of refugees emigrating to Europe from the disaster created in the Middle East by Lame Duck President Obama and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

 

[HappyJoy]

If it's unconstitutional, why don't you take it to the Supreme Court? Probably someone has already tried. Personally, I have run into quite a few people I hope to hell don't have a "right" any longer to a gun. You may be born with that right, but some people's actions deserve taking that right away. How does that get monitored except by registration, which requires time and money, necessitating a fee?
It isn't the law abiding gun owners who screw things up for the rest of us, but screw it up they do. And we pay for it. I don't see any way around it.

If a state or city government can require that you buy a right. Which ones can you afford and for how long?

Gun ownership is no different than voting....the democrats used Poll Taxes and Literacy tests to keep blacks from being able to vote....the calls for registration, licensing, and training requirements are simply Poll Taxes and Literacy tests for guns......

Felons are blocked from voting, voters also register, is that some sort of poll tax in your fucked up world?

Many felons are blocked from voting, but others run for office as democrats. Harold Washington ring a bell?

Lest we forget the late Ted Kennedy.

Was Kennedy convicted of what felony?

Really, we could go back and forth naming Republican and Democrats convicted of various crimes, what that has to do with comparing poll taxes to gun registration is an interesting stretch.

 

[RandallFlagg]

Make no mistake about it. The most disgusting word to liberals is "freedom". Liberals LOVE government. They LOVE the idea of government. Liberals are known as FOLLOWERS not LEADERS. They love to kiss the ring of their masters. They enjoy the idea of NOT having to make decisions to control their own destiny. Sheep. That's your standard liberals. Scared of their own shadows.

 

[NYcarbineer]

What the OP is trying to say is,

since abortion is a constitutional right, why should women need permission to get an abortion?

 

[asaratis]

..........


Gun grabbers can't stop.......after knives they will go after pens....and spoons......

It's all about CONTROL....down to the maximum size of single cups of sodas that can be bought at retail outlets. Under the guise of "it is for your own good", regulation after regulation takes away the freedom and safety of the American public. Of course, the regulators are immune from their own rules. The ruling elite generally expects to have no obligation to abide by the rules they set for 'the common man'.

Just look at our three branches of government. Congress even has the gall to write their own exclusive 'diplomatic immunity' into the laws they impose on the rest of us. This is representative of the "establishment" that has gradually but surely taken over the control of our government. We the people no longer have a real voice in what gets written into laws and regulations. It is 'for our own good' that we are cut out of the decision making process.

By the way, recent news about our USDA and their food marking regulations is that RAISED IN THE USA as applied to pork and chicken products means nothing more than that. The animals were raised in the USA, shipped live to places like China, Japan and other less restrictive countries to be processed and shipped back to the USA for sale in our markets....and it's all LEGAL. Be careful what you eat. Those that control the system are being rewarded by other countries to relax the rules regarding how the meats were prepared for sale. It's all about the money. Our government is nothing short of corrupt.

 

[Never3ndr]

I'm granted a national right at birth and I need permission? If its a national right I don't need a damn thing. And they want you to register and pay for that national right. Nothing in that right says I have to register and there is nothing that says government can extort money to "allow" a right.

That argument came to the forefront the other day when one of this sites liberals INSISTED that states have the right to REMOVE national rights. How truly stupid can one get? As a state, any state joins the United States that state AGREES to ANY and ALL national rights. There is no question and there is no exception.

That is what prevents state leaders from becoming dictators. Now in most liberals cities you can't get one. So they are in fact trying to DENY your right. Yet in other liberal cities you can get one but it costs you money. So in fact your national right is being extorted for money. We don't have those issues here in Arizona. You DON'T beg for a right or buy it, it's yours.

If we were to look at the subject in total truth then Baltimore/Detroit and St. Louis ARE violating Federal LAW JUST as much if not more then Sanctuary Cities. Why are we fighting a modern day "civilized" government for a national right? Seems to me we would be throwing those traitors out of office as fast as we could find them.

Governments JOB is to protect our rights and our Sovereignty. Seems to me they are taking one illegally and NOT doing the other! Who is this government working for? It sure as hell does not seem like me. Lets see, you take guns and the rule of law out and put criminals in and you expect me to build and prosper?

What the hell am I building and what's it worth? Show me where the safety and Sovereignty is in that. The two base things ANY nation needs to survive and to grow. And you want me to build without either?

You folks better keep your guns because the ones WITH guns will be the SAME folks running the country.

Fury

You also have the national right to own and operate a business but you still need permission for that. You have the right to marriage...but I'm also sure you need to register for that as well. Hey, wait...how about the right to vote...oh wait...you also need to register for that as well.

Keep trying.

Just as an aside, I'm actually for gun rights (within reason). I've been to countries where it is mandatory to own a form of protection (AK being probably the most common) or you will lose your life and property to your opportunistic neighbor. While I don't think that civilized nations (like Japan) really need to allow their citizen base gun rights, I'd consider most Americans, OP included, as being far from civilized. Gun rights are needed for house owners to protect themselves from their neighbors...I mean if you look at almost every major city (Chicago is currently getting the highlight) crime rates are through the roof. With that said, me, as a law abiding citizen, has no issue with having to register for my firearm or having to be approved. Why? Well, I've got nothing to hide. It isn't a big deal. On the other hand, if crazy DarkFury went to register for a firearm, you better be damn sure I'd feel safer if that guy had a psyche eval, full criminal background check, and an extensive waiting period. It would simply make everybody safer (himself probably included).

 

[HUGGY]

If it's unconstitutional, why don't you take it to the Supreme Court? Probably someone has already tried. Personally, I have run into quite a few people I hope to hell don't have a "right" any longer to a gun. You may be born with that right, but some people's actions deserve taking that right away. How does that get monitored except by registration, which requires time and money, necessitating a fee?
It isn't the law abiding gun owners who screw things up for the rest of us, but screw it up they do. And we pay for it. I don't see any way around it.

It says nothing in the constitution or bill of rights that they are forfeited when you make a mistake. That is made up by people that fear someone that has misused a weapon is more of a danger to actually use it against the government when the government misuses it's power. I agree. In in the name of fearful citizens EVERYONE must get a background check which is the same as registration of your firearm.

So as a result felons can and do acquire weapons easily without the government's knowledge and the stupid law abiding citizens submit to telling the government that they are armed and where to go to take away their weapons. Perfect!

 

[asaratis]

I'm granted a national right at birth and I need permission? If its a national right I don't need a damn thing. And they want you to register and pay for that national right. Nothing in that right says I have to register and there is nothing that says government can extort money to "allow" a right.

That argument came to the forefront the other day when one of this sites liberals INSISTED that states have the right to REMOVE national rights. How truly stupid can one get? As a state, any state joins the United States that state AGREES to ANY and ALL national rights. There is no question and there is no exception.

That is what prevents state leaders from becoming dictators. Now in most liberals cities you can't get one. So they are in fact trying to DENY your right. Yet in other liberal cities you can get one but it costs you money. So in fact your national right is being extorted for money. We don't have those issues here in Arizona. You DON'T beg for a right or buy it, it's yours.

If we were to look at the subject in total truth then Baltimore/Detroit and St. Louis ARE violating Federal LAW JUST as much if not more then Sanctuary Cities. Why are we fighting a modern day "civilized" government for a national right? Seems to me we would be throwing those traitors out of office as fast as we could find them.

Governments JOB is to protect our rights and our Sovereignty. Seems to me they are taking one illegally and NOT doing the other! Who is this government working for? It sure as hell does not seem like me. Lets see, you take guns and the rule of law out and put criminals in and you expect me to build and prosper?

What the hell am I building and what's it worth? Show me where the safety and Sovereignty is in that. The two base things ANY nation needs to survive and to grow. And you want me to build without either?

You folks better keep your guns because the ones WITH guns will be the SAME folks running the country.

Fury

You also have the national right to own and operate a business but you still need permission for that. You have the right to marriage...but I'm also sure you need to register for that as well. Hey, wait...how about the right to vote...oh wait...you also need to register for that as well.

Keep trying.

The right to bear arms shall not be infringed. The right to carry concealed weapons requires a permit. Those are the rules in many states. None that I know of require individual registration of weapons.

 

[2aguy]

If it's unconstitutional, why don't you take it to the Supreme Court? Probably someone has already tried. Personally, I have run into quite a few people I hope to hell don't have a "right" any longer to a gun. You may be born with that right, but some people's actions deserve taking that right away. How does that get monitored except by registration, which requires time and money, necessitating a fee?
It isn't the law abiding gun owners who screw things up for the rest of us, but screw it up they do. And we pay for it. I don't see any way around it.

If a state or city government can require that you buy a right. Which ones can you afford and for how long?

How do we make it harder for violent criminals and violently mentally ill people from buying guns otherwise? Okay, get the registration done by some centralized, independent bureau and have the cost of it absorbed in the cost of the weapon? So people just don't realize they're paying for it?

This was your last paragraph:
If a state or city government can require that you buy a right. Which ones can you afford and for how long?

How do we make it harder for violent criminals and violently mentally ill people from buying guns otherwise? Okay, get the registration done by some centralized, independent bureau and have the cost of it absorbed in the cost of the weapon? So people just don't realize they're paying for it?

Perhaps you could take a poll in Detroit, Washington, DC and maybe the South Side of Chicago and see how many criminals and violent, mentally ill people would register their guns. That should give you a good idea of how that will reduce gun violence and crime.

Zilch![/QUOTE]


The Supreme Court ruled in Haynes v. United STates that criminals do not have to register their illegal guns....it would be against their 5th Amendment right against self incrimination.

 

[2aguy]

I'm granted a national right at birth and I need permission? If its a national right I don't need a damn thing. And they want you to register and pay for that national right. Nothing in that right says I have to register and there is nothing that says government can extort money to "allow" a right.

That argument came to the forefront the other day when one of this sites liberals INSISTED that states have the right to REMOVE national rights. How truly stupid can one get? As a state, any state joins the United States that state AGREES to ANY and ALL national rights. There is no question and there is no exception.

That is what prevents state leaders from becoming dictators. Now in most liberals cities you can't get one. So they are in fact trying to DENY your right. Yet in other liberal cities you can get one but it costs you money. So in fact your national right is being extorted for money. We don't have those issues here in Arizona. You DON'T beg for a right or buy it, it's yours.

If we were to look at the subject in total truth then Baltimore/Detroit and St. Louis ARE violating Federal LAW JUST as much if not more then Sanctuary Cities. Why are we fighting a modern day "civilized" government for a national right? Seems to me we would be throwing those traitors out of office as fast as we could find them.

Governments JOB is to protect our rights and our Sovereignty. Seems to me they are taking one illegally and NOT doing the other! Who is this government working for? It sure as hell does not seem like me. Lets see, you take guns and the rule of law out and put criminals in and you expect me to build and prosper?

What the hell am I building and what's it worth? Show me where the safety and Sovereignty is in that. The two base things ANY nation needs to survive and to grow. And you want me to build without either?

You folks better keep your guns because the ones WITH guns will be the SAME folks running the country.

Fury

You also have the national right to own and operate a business but you still need permission for that. You have the right to marriage...but I'm also sure you need to register for that as well. Hey, wait...how about the right to vote...oh wait...you also need to register for that as well.

Keep trying.

Just as an aside, I'm actually for gun rights (within reason). I've been to countries where it is mandatory to own a form of protection (AK being probably the most common) or you will lose your life and property to your opportunistic neighbor. While I don't think that civilized nations (like Japan) really need to allow their citizen base gun rights, I'd consider most Americans, OP included, as being far from civilized. Gun rights are needed for house owners to protect themselves from their neighbors...I mean if you look at almost every major city (Chicago is currently getting the highlight) crime rates are through the roof. With that said, me, as a law abiding citizen, has no issue with having to register for my firearm or having to be approved. Why? Well, I've got nothing to hide. It isn't a big deal. On the other hand, if crazy DarkFury went to register for a firearm, you better be damn sure I'd feel safer if that guy had a psyche eval, full criminal background check, and an extensive waiting period. It would simply make everybody safer (himself probably included).

Wow......you sound just like the German people did in the 1920s.......when they registered their guns and turned most of them in......they had nothing to hide, and the police would protect them......

How exactly do psych evals and background checks and waiting periods stop criminals and mass shooters from getting agun.....since most mass shooters are non violent until they attack and show no signs of violence until the day they start shooting....?

 

[DarkFury]

I'm granted a national right at birth and I need permission? If its a national right I don't need a damn thing. And they want you to register and pay for that national right. Nothing in that right says I have to register and there is nothing that says government can extort money to "allow" a right.

That argument came to the forefront the other day when one of this sites liberals INSISTED that states have the right to REMOVE national rights. How truly stupid can one get? As a state, any state joins the United States that state AGREES to ANY and ALL national rights. There is no question and there is no exception.

That is what prevents state leaders from becoming dictators. Now in most liberals cities you can't get one. So they are in fact trying to DENY your right. Yet in other liberal cities you can get one but it costs you money. So in fact your national right is being extorted for money. We don't have those issues here in Arizona. You DON'T beg for a right or buy it, it's yours.

If we were to look at the subject in total truth then Baltimore/Detroit and St. Louis ARE violating Federal LAW JUST as much if not more then Sanctuary Cities. Why are we fighting a modern day "civilized" government for a national right? Seems to me we would be throwing those traitors out of office as fast as we could find them.

Governments JOB is to protect our rights and our Sovereignty. Seems to me they are taking one illegally and NOT doing the other! Who is this government working for? It sure as hell does not seem like me. Lets see, you take guns and the rule of law out and put criminals in and you expect me to build and prosper?

What the hell am I building and what's it worth? Show me where the safety and Sovereignty is in that. The two base things ANY nation needs to survive and to grow. And you want me to build without either?

You folks better keep your guns because the ones WITH guns will be the SAME folks running the country.

Fury

You also have the national right to own and operate a business but you still need permission for that. You have the right to marriage...but I'm also sure you need to register for that as well. Hey, wait...how about the right to vote...oh wait...you also need to register for that as well.

Keep trying.

Just as an aside, I'm actually for gun rights (within reason). I've been to countries where it is mandatory to own a form of protection (AK being probably the most common) or you will lose your life and property to your opportunistic neighbor. While I don't think that civilized nations (like Japan) really need to allow their citizen base gun rights, I'd consider most Americans, OP included, as being far from civilized. Gun rights are needed for house owners to protect themselves from their neighbors...I mean if you look at almost every major city (Chicago is currently getting the highlight) crime rates are through the roof. With that said, me, as a law abiding citizen, has no issue with having to register for my firearm or having to be approved. Why? Well, I've got nothing to hide. It isn't a big deal. On the other hand, if crazy DarkFury went to register for a firearm, you better be damn sure I'd feel safer if that guy had a psyche eval, full criminal background check, and an extensive waiting period. It would simply make everybody safer (himself probably included).

I competition shoot and a physical, eye and mental exam are REQUIRED.

 

[RandallFlagg]

I'm granted a national right at birth and I need permission? If its a national right I don't need a damn thing. And they want you to register and pay for that national right. Nothing in that right says I have to register and there is nothing that says government can extort money to "allow" a right.

That argument came to the forefront the other day when one of this sites liberals INSISTED that states have the right to REMOVE national rights. How truly stupid can one get? As a state, any state joins the United States that state AGREES to ANY and ALL national rights. There is no question and there is no exception.

That is what prevents state leaders from becoming dictators. Now in most liberals cities you can't get one. So they are in fact trying to DENY your right. Yet in other liberal cities you can get one but it costs you money. So in fact your national right is being extorted for money. We don't have those issues here in Arizona. You DON'T beg for a right or buy it, it's yours.

If we were to look at the subject in total truth then Baltimore/Detroit and St. Louis ARE violating Federal LAW JUST as much if not more then Sanctuary Cities. Why are we fighting a modern day "civilized" government for a national right? Seems to me we would be throwing those traitors out of office as fast as we could find them.

Governments JOB is to protect our rights and our Sovereignty. Seems to me they are taking one illegally and NOT doing the other! Who is this government working for? It sure as hell does not seem like me. Lets see, you take guns and the rule of law out and put criminals in and you expect me to build and prosper?

What the hell am I building and what's it worth? Show me where the safety and Sovereignty is in that. The two base things ANY nation needs to survive and to grow. And you want me to build without either?

You folks better keep your guns because the ones WITH guns will be the SAME folks running the country.

Fury

You also have the national right to own and operate a business but you still need permission for that. You have the right to marriage...but I'm also sure you need to register for that as well. Hey, wait...how about the right to vote...oh wait...you also need to register for that as well.

Keep trying.

Just as an aside, I'm actually for gun rights (within reason). I've been to countries where it is mandatory to own a form of protection (AK being probably the most common) or you will lose your life and property to your opportunistic neighbor. While I don't think that civilized nations (like Japan) really need to allow their citizen base gun rights, I'd consider most Americans, OP included, as being far from civilized. Gun rights are needed for house owners to protect themselves from their neighbors...I mean if you look at almost every major city (Chicago is currently getting the highlight) crime rates are through the roof. With that said, me, as a law abiding citizen, has no issue with having to register for my firearm or having to be approved. Why? Well, I've got nothing to hide. It isn't a big deal. On the other hand, if crazy DarkFury went to register for a firearm, you better be damn sure I'd feel safer if that guy had a psyche eval, full criminal background check, and an extensive waiting period. It would simply make everybody safer (himself probably included).

Please show me where, in the second amendment, the words "shall register" is? And as a follow up to that very question, do you not understand the words "shall not be infringed"?

You see, the problem that arises when we begin to intrepert the wording to suit OUR needs - we bastardize those very words. Those words, as in ALL the words in the Bill of Rights and their Amendments are NOT open to either addition or subtraction.

 

[Never3ndr]

I'm granted a national right at birth and I need permission? If its a national right I don't need a damn thing. And they want you to register and pay for that national right. Nothing in that right says I have to register and there is nothing that says government can extort money to "allow" a right.

That argument came to the forefront the other day when one of this sites liberals INSISTED that states have the right to REMOVE national rights. How truly stupid can one get? As a state, any state joins the United States that state AGREES to ANY and ALL national rights. There is no question and there is no exception.

That is what prevents state leaders from becoming dictators. Now in most liberals cities you can't get one. So they are in fact trying to DENY your right. Yet in other liberal cities you can get one but it costs you money. So in fact your national right is being extorted for money. We don't have those issues here in Arizona. You DON'T beg for a right or buy it, it's yours.

If we were to look at the subject in total truth then Baltimore/Detroit and St. Louis ARE violating Federal LAW JUST as much if not more then Sanctuary Cities. Why are we fighting a modern day "civilized" government for a national right? Seems to me we would be throwing those traitors out of office as fast as we could find them.

Governments JOB is to protect our rights and our Sovereignty. Seems to me they are taking one illegally and NOT doing the other! Who is this government working for? It sure as hell does not seem like me. Lets see, you take guns and the rule of law out and put criminals in and you expect me to build and prosper?

What the hell am I building and what's it worth? Show me where the safety and Sovereignty is in that. The two base things ANY nation needs to survive and to grow. And you want me to build without either?

You folks better keep your guns because the ones WITH guns will be the SAME folks running the country.

Fury

You also have the national right to own and operate a business but you still need permission for that. You have the right to marriage...but I'm also sure you need to register for that as well. Hey, wait...how about the right to vote...oh wait...you also need to register for that as well.

Keep trying.

Just as an aside, I'm actually for gun rights (within reason). I've been to countries where it is mandatory to own a form of protection (AK being probably the most common) or you will lose your life and property to your opportunistic neighbor. While I don't think that civilized nations (like Japan) really need to allow their citizen base gun rights, I'd consider most Americans, OP included, as being far from civilized. Gun rights are needed for house owners to protect themselves from their neighbors...I mean if you look at almost every major city (Chicago is currently getting the highlight) crime rates are through the roof. With that said, me, as a law abiding citizen, has no issue with having to register for my firearm or having to be approved. Why? Well, I've got nothing to hide. It isn't a big deal. On the other hand, if crazy DarkFury went to register for a firearm, you better be damn sure I'd feel safer if that guy had a psyche eval, full criminal background check, and an extensive waiting period. It would simply make everybody safer (himself probably included).

Please show me where, in the second amendment, the words "shall register" is? And as a follow up to that very question, do you not understand the words "shall not be infringed"?

You see, the problem that arises when we begin to intrepert the wording to suit OUR needs - we bastardize those very words. Those words, as in ALL the words in the Bill of Rights and their Amendments are NOT open to either addition or subtraction.

Do you understand the words "shall not be infringed"? As I pointed out you register for pretty much everything you do in life...from your job to your driver's license. Why would guns be any different other than as a direct result of the huge money behind their special lobby? Infringing means to take away or restrict...registering does neither of these things...it is a commonplace form of administration that we have to go through for pretty much every aspect of our daily lives. You guys are trying to make buying guns special...news flash...it isn't. I'm not saying we shouldn't have the right to own guns, I AM saying it doesn't matter if we register or not...in fact, in today's world, it would make more common sense to have to register for guns than not.

 

[DarkFury]

I'm granted a national right at birth and I need permission? If its a national right I don't need a damn thing. And they want you to register and pay for that national right. Nothing in that right says I have to register and there is nothing that says government can extort money to "allow" a right.

That argument came to the forefront the other day when one of this sites liberals INSISTED that states have the right to REMOVE national rights. How truly stupid can one get? As a state, any state joins the United States that state AGREES to ANY and ALL national rights. There is no question and there is no exception.

That is what prevents state leaders from becoming dictators. Now in most liberals cities you can't get one. So they are in fact trying to DENY your right. Yet in other liberal cities you can get one but it costs you money. So in fact your national right is being extorted for money. We don't have those issues here in Arizona. You DON'T beg for a right or buy it, it's yours.

If we were to look at the subject in total truth then Baltimore/Detroit and St. Louis ARE violating Federal LAW JUST as much if not more then Sanctuary Cities. Why are we fighting a modern day "civilized" government for a national right? Seems to me we would be throwing those traitors out of office as fast as we could find them.

Governments JOB is to protect our rights and our Sovereignty. Seems to me they are taking one illegally and NOT doing the other! Who is this government working for? It sure as hell does not seem like me. Lets see, you take guns and the rule of law out and put criminals in and you expect me to build and prosper?

What the hell am I building and what's it worth? Show me where the safety and Sovereignty is in that. The two base things ANY nation needs to survive and to grow. And you want me to build without either?

You folks better keep your guns because the ones WITH guns will be the SAME folks running the country.

Fury

You also have the national right to own and operate a business but you still need permission for that. You have the right to marriage...but I'm also sure you need to register for that as well. Hey, wait...how about the right to vote...oh wait...you also need to register for that as well.

Keep trying.

Just as an aside, I'm actually for gun rights (within reason). I've been to countries where it is mandatory to own a form of protection (AK being probably the most common) or you will lose your life and property to your opportunistic neighbor. While I don't think that civilized nations (like Japan) really need to allow their citizen base gun rights, I'd consider most Americans, OP included, as being far from civilized. Gun rights are needed for house owners to protect themselves from their neighbors...I mean if you look at almost every major city (Chicago is currently getting the highlight) crime rates are through the roof. With that said, me, as a law abiding citizen, has no issue with having to register for my firearm or having to be approved. Why? Well, I've got nothing to hide. It isn't a big deal. On the other hand, if crazy DarkFury went to register for a firearm, you better be damn sure I'd feel safer if that guy had a psyche eval, full criminal background check, and an extensive waiting period. It would simply make everybody safer (himself probably included).

Please show me where, in the second amendment, the words "shall register" is? And as a follow up to that very question, do you not understand the words "shall not be infringed"?

You see, the problem that arises when we begin to intrepert the wording to suit OUR needs - we bastardize those very words. Those words, as in ALL the words in the Bill of Rights and their Amendments are NOT open to either addition or subtraction.

Do you understand the words "shall not be infringed"? As I pointed out you register for pretty much everything you do in life...from your job to your driver's license. Why would guns be any different other than as a direct result of the huge money behind their special lobby? Infringing means to take away or restrict...registering does neither of these things...it is a commonplace form of administration that we have to go through for pretty much every aspect of our daily lives. You guys are trying to make buying guns special...news flash...it isn't. I'm not saying we shouldn't have the right to own guns, I AM saying it doesn't matter if we register or not...in fact, in today's world, it would make more common sense to have to register for guns than not.

Your argument fails. If a car is taken off your property {driven} it must be registered. But if that same car never leaves the property nothing is required.

A gun resides on private property and if taken off for say hunting you buy a permit. You don't registered the gun because its not used in public by lawful citizens.

 

[Never3ndr]

I'm granted a national right at birth and I need permission? If its a national right I don't need a damn thing. And they want you to register and pay for that national right. Nothing in that right says I have to register and there is nothing that says government can extort money to "allow" a right.

That argument came to the forefront the other day when one of this sites liberals INSISTED that states have the right to REMOVE national rights. How truly stupid can one get? As a state, any state joins the United States that state AGREES to ANY and ALL national rights. There is no question and there is no exception.

That is what prevents state leaders from becoming dictators. Now in most liberals cities you can't get one. So they are in fact trying to DENY your right. Yet in other liberal cities you can get one but it costs you money. So in fact your national right is being extorted for money. We don't have those issues here in Arizona. You DON'T beg for a right or buy it, it's yours.

If we were to look at the subject in total truth then Baltimore/Detroit and St. Louis ARE violating Federal LAW JUST as much if not more then Sanctuary Cities. Why are we fighting a modern day "civilized" government for a national right? Seems to me we would be throwing those traitors out of office as fast as we could find them.

Governments JOB is to protect our rights and our Sovereignty. Seems to me they are taking one illegally and NOT doing the other! Who is this government working for? It sure as hell does not seem like me. Lets see, you take guns and the rule of law out and put criminals in and you expect me to build and prosper?

What the hell am I building and what's it worth? Show me where the safety and Sovereignty is in that. The two base things ANY nation needs to survive and to grow. And you want me to build without either?

You folks better keep your guns because the ones WITH guns will be the SAME folks running the country.

Fury

You also have the national right to own and operate a business but you still need permission for that. You have the right to marriage...but I'm also sure you need to register for that as well. Hey, wait...how about the right to vote...oh wait...you also need to register for that as well.

Keep trying.

Just as an aside, I'm actually for gun rights (within reason). I've been to countries where it is mandatory to own a form of protection (AK being probably the most common) or you will lose your life and property to your opportunistic neighbor. While I don't think that civilized nations (like Japan) really need to allow their citizen base gun rights, I'd consider most Americans, OP included, as being far from civilized. Gun rights are needed for house owners to protect themselves from their neighbors...I mean if you look at almost every major city (Chicago is currently getting the highlight) crime rates are through the roof. With that said, me, as a law abiding citizen, has no issue with having to register for my firearm or having to be approved. Why? Well, I've got nothing to hide. It isn't a big deal. On the other hand, if crazy DarkFury went to register for a firearm, you better be damn sure I'd feel safer if that guy had a psyche eval, full criminal background check, and an extensive waiting period. It would simply make everybody safer (himself probably included).

Please show me where, in the second amendment, the words "shall register" is? And as a follow up to that very question, do you not understand the words "shall not be infringed"?

You see, the problem that arises when we begin to intrepert the wording to suit OUR needs - we bastardize those very words. Those words, as in ALL the words in the Bill of Rights and their Amendments are NOT open to either addition or subtraction.

Do you understand the words "shall not be infringed"? As I pointed out you register for pretty much everything you do in life...from your job to your driver's license. Why would guns be any different other than as a direct result of the huge money behind their special lobby? Infringing means to take away or restrict...registering does neither of these things...it is a commonplace form of administration that we have to go through for pretty much every aspect of our daily lives. You guys are trying to make buying guns special...news flash...it isn't. I'm not saying we shouldn't have the right to own guns, I AM saying it doesn't matter if we register or not...in fact, in today's world, it would make more common sense to have to register for guns than not.

Your argument fails. If a car is taken off your property {driven} it must be registered. But if that same car never leaves the property nothing is required.

A gun resides on private property and if taken off for say hunting you buy a permit. You don't registered the gun because its not used in public by lawful citizens.

So you are saying that when you buy a car you don't sign anything at all? Maybe it is just the states I've been in, but I always remember signing over a vehicle title. You don't think that is some form of paperwork / registration requiring the state to know you are the rightful owner of a vehicle?

 

[RandallFlagg]

I'm granted a national right at birth and I need permission? If its a national right I don't need a damn thing. And they want you to register and pay for that national right. Nothing in that right says I have to register and there is nothing that says government can extort money to "allow" a right.

That argument came to the forefront the other day when one of this sites liberals INSISTED that states have the right to REMOVE national rights. How truly stupid can one get? As a state, any state joins the United States that state AGREES to ANY and ALL national rights. There is no question and there is no exception.

That is what prevents state leaders from becoming dictators. Now in most liberals cities you can't get one. So they are in fact trying to DENY your right. Yet in other liberal cities you can get one but it costs you money. So in fact your national right is being extorted for money. We don't have those issues here in Arizona. You DON'T beg for a right or buy it, it's yours.

If we were to look at the subject in total truth then Baltimore/Detroit and St. Louis ARE violating Federal LAW JUST as much if not more then Sanctuary Cities. Why are we fighting a modern day "civilized" government for a national right? Seems to me we would be throwing those traitors out of office as fast as we could find them.

Governments JOB is to protect our rights and our Sovereignty. Seems to me they are taking one illegally and NOT doing the other! Who is this government working for? It sure as hell does not seem like me. Lets see, you take guns and the rule of law out and put criminals in and you expect me to build and prosper?

What the hell am I building and what's it worth? Show me where the safety and Sovereignty is in that. The two base things ANY nation needs to survive and to grow. And you want me to build without either?

You folks better keep your guns because the ones WITH guns will be the SAME folks running the country.

Fury

You also have the national right to own and operate a business but you still need permission for that. You have the right to marriage...but I'm also sure you need to register for that as well. Hey, wait...how about the right to vote...oh wait...you also need to register for that as well.

Keep trying.

Just as an aside, I'm actually for gun rights (within reason). I've been to countries where it is mandatory to own a form of protection (AK being probably the most common) or you will lose your life and property to your opportunistic neighbor. While I don't think that civilized nations (like Japan) really need to allow their citizen base gun rights, I'd consider most Americans, OP included, as being far from civilized. Gun rights are needed for house owners to protect themselves from their neighbors...I mean if you look at almost every major city (Chicago is currently getting the highlight) crime rates are through the roof. With that said, me, as a law abiding citizen, has no issue with having to register for my firearm or having to be approved. Why? Well, I've got nothing to hide. It isn't a big deal. On the other hand, if crazy DarkFury went to register for a firearm, you better be damn sure I'd feel safer if that guy had a psyche eval, full criminal background check, and an extensive waiting period. It would simply make everybody safer (himself probably included).

Please show me where, in the second amendment, the words "shall register" is? And as a follow up to that very question, do you not understand the words "shall not be infringed"?

You see, the problem that arises when we begin to intrepert the wording to suit OUR needs - we bastardize those very words. Those words, as in ALL the words in the Bill of Rights and their Amendments are NOT open to either addition or subtraction.

Do you understand the words "shall not be infringed"? As I pointed out you register for pretty much everything you do in life...from your job to your driver's license. Why would guns be any different other than as a direct result of the huge money behind their special lobby? Infringing means to take away or restrict...registering does neither of these things...it is a commonplace form of administration that we have to go through for pretty much every aspect of our daily lives. You guys are trying to make buying guns special...news flash...it isn't. I'm not saying we shouldn't have the right to own guns, I AM saying it doesn't matter if we register or not...in fact, in today's world, it would make more common sense to have to register for guns than not.

Your argument fails. If a car is taken off your property {driven} it must be registered. But if that same car never leaves the property nothing is required.

A gun resides on private property and if taken off for say hunting you buy a permit. You don't registered the gun because its not used in public by lawful citizens.

So you are saying that when you buy a car you don't sign anything at all? Maybe it is just the states I've been in, but I always remember signing over a vehicle title. You don't think that is some form of paperwork / registration requiring the state to know you are the rightful owner of a vehicle?

An automobile and a firearm are two distinctly different animals. Or didn't you know that? Where in the Bill of Rights does it say ANYTHING about registering ANYTHING? Registering a automobile is for nothing other than the collection of taxes. (Real property). Use your head for something other than a hat rack.

 

[2aguy]

I'm granted a national right at birth and I need permission? If its a national right I don't need a damn thing. And they want you to register and pay for that national right. Nothing in that right says I have to register and there is nothing that says government can extort money to "allow" a right.

That argument came to the forefront the other day when one of this sites liberals INSISTED that states have the right to REMOVE national rights. How truly stupid can one get? As a state, any state joins the United States that state AGREES to ANY and ALL national rights. There is no question and there is no exception.

That is what prevents state leaders from becoming dictators. Now in most liberals cities you can't get one. So they are in fact trying to DENY your right. Yet in other liberal cities you can get one but it costs you money. So in fact your national right is being extorted for money. We don't have those issues here in Arizona. You DON'T beg for a right or buy it, it's yours.

If we were to look at the subject in total truth then Baltimore/Detroit and St. Louis ARE violating Federal LAW JUST as much if not more then Sanctuary Cities. Why are we fighting a modern day "civilized" government for a national right? Seems to me we would be throwing those traitors out of office as fast as we could find them.

Governments JOB is to protect our rights and our Sovereignty. Seems to me they are taking one illegally and NOT doing the other! Who is this government working for? It sure as hell does not seem like me. Lets see, you take guns and the rule of law out and put criminals in and you expect me to build and prosper?

What the hell am I building and what's it worth? Show me where the safety and Sovereignty is in that. The two base things ANY nation needs to survive and to grow. And you want me to build without either?

You folks better keep your guns because the ones WITH guns will be the SAME folks running the country.

Fury

You also have the national right to own and operate a business but you still need permission for that. You have the right to marriage...but I'm also sure you need to register for that as well. Hey, wait...how about the right to vote...oh wait...you also need to register for that as well.

Keep trying.

Just as an aside, I'm actually for gun rights (within reason). I've been to countries where it is mandatory to own a form of protection (AK being probably the most common) or you will lose your life and property to your opportunistic neighbor. While I don't think that civilized nations (like Japan) really need to allow their citizen base gun rights, I'd consider most Americans, OP included, as being far from civilized. Gun rights are needed for house owners to protect themselves from their neighbors...I mean if you look at almost every major city (Chicago is currently getting the highlight) crime rates are through the roof. With that said, me, as a law abiding citizen, has no issue with having to register for my firearm or having to be approved. Why? Well, I've got nothing to hide. It isn't a big deal. On the other hand, if crazy DarkFury went to register for a firearm, you better be damn sure I'd feel safer if that guy had a psyche eval, full criminal background check, and an extensive waiting period. It would simply make everybody safer (himself probably included).

Please show me where, in the second amendment, the words "shall register" is? And as a follow up to that very question, do you not understand the words "shall not be infringed"?

You see, the problem that arises when we begin to intrepert the wording to suit OUR needs - we bastardize those very words. Those words, as in ALL the words in the Bill of Rights and their Amendments are NOT open to either addition or subtraction.

Do you understand the words "shall not be infringed"? As I pointed out you register for pretty much everything you do in life...from your job to your driver's license. Why would guns be any different other than as a direct result of the huge money behind their special lobby? Infringing means to take away or restrict...registering does neither of these things...it is a commonplace form of administration that we have to go through for pretty much every aspect of our daily lives. You guys are trying to make buying guns special...news flash...it isn't. I'm not saying we shouldn't have the right to own guns, I AM saying it doesn't matter if we register or not...in fact, in today's world, it would make more common sense to have to register for guns than not.

Registration is only needed to confiscate and ban guns later........since you obviously do not understand history.....we are not making this up...it has happened around the world, most recently in Britain and Australia...and most tragically in 1920s Germany....were 12,000,000 million innocent men, women and children were murdered....all unarmed.

 

[RandallFlagg]

I'm granted a national right at birth and I need permission? If its a national right I don't need a damn thing. And they want you to register and pay for that national right. Nothing in that right says I have to register and there is nothing that says government can extort money to "allow" a right.

That argument came to the forefront the other day when one of this sites liberals INSISTED that states have the right to REMOVE national rights. How truly stupid can one get? As a state, any state joins the United States that state AGREES to ANY and ALL national rights. There is no question and there is no exception.

That is what prevents state leaders from becoming dictators. Now in most liberals cities you can't get one. So they are in fact trying to DENY your right. Yet in other liberal cities you can get one but it costs you money. So in fact your national right is being extorted for money. We don't have those issues here in Arizona. You DON'T beg for a right or buy it, it's yours.

If we were to look at the subject in total truth then Baltimore/Detroit and St. Louis ARE violating Federal LAW JUST as much if not more then Sanctuary Cities. Why are we fighting a modern day "civilized" government for a national right? Seems to me we would be throwing those traitors out of office as fast as we could find them.

Governments JOB is to protect our rights and our Sovereignty. Seems to me they are taking one illegally and NOT doing the other! Who is this government working for? It sure as hell does not seem like me. Lets see, you take guns and the rule of law out and put criminals in and you expect me to build and prosper?

What the hell am I building and what's it worth? Show me where the safety and Sovereignty is in that. The two base things ANY nation needs to survive and to grow. And you want me to build without either?

You folks better keep your guns because the ones WITH guns will be the SAME folks running the country.

Fury

You also have the national right to own and operate a business but you still need permission for that. You have the right to marriage...but I'm also sure you need to register for that as well. Hey, wait...how about the right to vote...oh wait...you also need to register for that as well.

Keep trying.

Just as an aside, I'm actually for gun rights (within reason). I've been to countries where it is mandatory to own a form of protection (AK being probably the most common) or you will lose your life and property to your opportunistic neighbor. While I don't think that civilized nations (like Japan) really need to allow their citizen base gun rights, I'd consider most Americans, OP included, as being far from civilized. Gun rights are needed for house owners to protect themselves from their neighbors...I mean if you look at almost every major city (Chicago is currently getting the highlight) crime rates are through the roof. With that said, me, as a law abiding citizen, has no issue with having to register for my firearm or having to be approved. Why? Well, I've got nothing to hide. It isn't a big deal. On the other hand, if crazy DarkFury went to register for a firearm, you better be damn sure I'd feel safer if that guy had a psyche eval, full criminal background check, and an extensive waiting period. It would simply make everybody safer (himself probably included).

Please show me where, in the second amendment, the words "shall register" is? And as a follow up to that very question, do you not understand the words "shall not be infringed"?

You see, the problem that arises when we begin to intrepert the wording to suit OUR needs - we bastardize those very words. Those words, as in ALL the words in the Bill of Rights and their Amendments are NOT open to either addition or subtraction.

Do you understand the words "shall not be infringed"? As I pointed out you register for pretty much everything you do in life...from your job to your driver's license. Why would guns be any different other than as a direct result of the huge money behind their special lobby? Infringing means to take away or restrict...registering does neither of these things...it is a commonplace form of administration that we have to go through for pretty much every aspect of our daily lives. You guys are trying to make buying guns special...news flash...it isn't. I'm not saying we shouldn't have the right to own guns, I AM saying it doesn't matter if we register or not...in fact, in today's world, it would make more common sense to have to register for guns than not.

Registration is only needed to confiscate and ban guns later........since you obviously do not understand history.....we are not making this up...it has happened around the world, most recently in Britain and Australia...and most tragically in 1920s Germany....were 12,000,000 million innocent men, women and children were murdered....all unarmed.

Indeed. The first step that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Mussolini and Tojo took was to disarm the populace for "their protection".

 

[2aguy]

I'm granted a national right at birth and I need permission? If its a national right I don't need a damn thing. And they want you to register and pay for that national right. Nothing in that right says I have to register and there is nothing that says government can extort money to "allow" a right.

That argument came to the forefront the other day when one of this sites liberals INSISTED that states have the right to REMOVE national rights. How truly stupid can one get? As a state, any state joins the United States that state AGREES to ANY and ALL national rights. There is no question and there is no exception.

That is what prevents state leaders from becoming dictators. Now in most liberals cities you can't get one. So they are in fact trying to DENY your right. Yet in other liberal cities you can get one but it costs you money. So in fact your national right is being extorted for money. We don't have those issues here in Arizona. You DON'T beg for a right or buy it, it's yours.

If we were to look at the subject in total truth then Baltimore/Detroit and St. Louis ARE violating Federal LAW JUST as much if not more then Sanctuary Cities. Why are we fighting a modern day "civilized" government for a national right? Seems to me we would be throwing those traitors out of office as fast as we could find them.

Governments JOB is to protect our rights and our Sovereignty. Seems to me they are taking one illegally and NOT doing the other! Who is this government working for? It sure as hell does not seem like me. Lets see, you take guns and the rule of law out and put criminals in and you expect me to build and prosper?

What the hell am I building and what's it worth? Show me where the safety and Sovereignty is in that. The two base things ANY nation needs to survive and to grow. And you want me to build without either?

You folks better keep your guns because the ones WITH guns will be the SAME folks running the country.

Fury

You also have the national right to own and operate a business but you still need permission for that. You have the right to marriage...but I'm also sure you need to register for that as well. Hey, wait...how about the right to vote...oh wait...you also need to register for that as well.

Keep trying.

Just as an aside, I'm actually for gun rights (within reason). I've been to countries where it is mandatory to own a form of protection (AK being probably the most common) or you will lose your life and property to your opportunistic neighbor. While I don't think that civilized nations (like Japan) really need to allow their citizen base gun rights, I'd consider most Americans, OP included, as being far from civilized. Gun rights are needed for house owners to protect themselves from their neighbors...I mean if you look at almost every major city (Chicago is currently getting the highlight) crime rates are through the roof. With that said, me, as a law abiding citizen, has no issue with having to register for my firearm or having to be approved. Why? Well, I've got nothing to hide. It isn't a big deal. On the other hand, if crazy DarkFury went to register for a firearm, you better be damn sure I'd feel safer if that guy had a psyche eval, full criminal background check, and an extensive waiting period. It would simply make everybody safer (himself probably included).

Please show me where, in the second amendment, the words "shall register" is? And as a follow up to that very question, do you not understand the words "shall not be infringed"?

You see, the problem that arises when we begin to intrepert the wording to suit OUR needs - we bastardize those very words. Those words, as in ALL the words in the Bill of Rights and their Amendments are NOT open to either addition or subtraction.

Do you understand the words "shall not be infringed"? As I pointed out you register for pretty much everything you do in life...from your job to your driver's license. Why would guns be any different other than as a direct result of the huge money behind their special lobby? Infringing means to take away or restrict...registering does neither of these things...it is a commonplace form of administration that we have to go through for pretty much every aspect of our daily lives. You guys are trying to make buying guns special...news flash...it isn't. I'm not saying we shouldn't have the right to own guns, I AM saying it doesn't matter if we register or not...in fact, in today's world, it would make more common sense to have to register for guns than not.

Registration is only needed to confiscate and ban guns later........since you obviously do not understand history.....we are not making this up...it has happened around the world, most recently in Britain and Australia...and most tragically in 1920s Germany....were 12,000,000 million innocent men, women and children were murdered....all unarmed.

Indeed. The first step that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Mussolini and Tojo took was to disarm the populace for "their protection".

The left.....never concerned with the actual history of mankind......or how humans actually behave.......their brains don't compute those things...

 

[RandallFlagg]

You also have the national right to own and operate a business but you still need permission for that. You have the right to marriage...but I'm also sure you need to register for that as well. Hey, wait...how about the right to vote...oh wait...you also need to register for that as well.

Keep trying.

Just as an aside, I'm actually for gun rights (within reason). I've been to countries where it is mandatory to own a form of protection (AK being probably the most common) or you will lose your life and property to your opportunistic neighbor. While I don't think that civilized nations (like Japan) really need to allow their citizen base gun rights, I'd consider most Americans, OP included, as being far from civilized. Gun rights are needed for house owners to protect themselves from their neighbors...I mean if you look at almost every major city (Chicago is currently getting the highlight) crime rates are through the roof. With that said, me, as a law abiding citizen, has no issue with having to register for my firearm or having to be approved. Why? Well, I've got nothing to hide. It isn't a big deal. On the other hand, if crazy DarkFury went to register for a firearm, you better be damn sure I'd feel safer if that guy had a psyche eval, full criminal background check, and an extensive waiting period. It would simply make everybody safer (himself probably included).

Please show me where, in the second amendment, the words "shall register" is? And as a follow up to that very question, do you not understand the words "shall not be infringed"?

You see, the problem that arises when we begin to intrepert the wording to suit OUR needs - we bastardize those very words. Those words, as in ALL the words in the Bill of Rights and their Amendments are NOT open to either addition or subtraction.

Do you understand the words "shall not be infringed"? As I pointed out you register for pretty much everything you do in life...from your job to your driver's license. Why would guns be any different other than as a direct result of the huge money behind their special lobby? Infringing means to take away or restrict...registering does neither of these things...it is a commonplace form of administration that we have to go through for pretty much every aspect of our daily lives. You guys are trying to make buying guns special...news flash...it isn't. I'm not saying we shouldn't have the right to own guns, I AM saying it doesn't matter if we register or not...in fact, in today's world, it would make more common sense to have to register for guns than not.

Registration is only needed to confiscate and ban guns later........since you obviously do not understand history.....we are not making this up...it has happened around the world, most recently in Britain and Australia...and most tragically in 1920s Germany....were 12,000,000 million innocent men, women and children were murdered....all unarmed.

Indeed. The first step that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Mussolini and Tojo took was to disarm the populace for "their protection".

The left.....never concerned with the actual history of mankind......or how humans actually behave.......their brains don't compute those things...

I actually believe that the left "romanticizes" tyranny. They look at a "central government" that answers to no one and does not tolerate dissent as an ideal. And why not? Liberals abhore the word "freedom" and everything associated with it. Liberals are sheep. They are followers, not leaders.