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You're actually wrong. Ever heard of the Blackstone formulation? : "better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" Our justice system is guided by it. It is actually MORE important to ensure all eligible voters can their votes than it is to prevent illegal votes. Which is the opposite of what you just said. Thus you are wrong.
Its already a crime to vote twice.
There is perhaps an even simpler system. Have voters put their fingerprints on their ballots. Then - if they are casting votes under a false name in order to vote illegally, their will be proof and they can be punished. With modern technology, we ought be able to cross check a sample of ballots with all ballots cast to see if a fingerprint comes up more than once, to identify districts where illegal voting is widespread, and then all the ballots in those districts could be cross checked to find all illegal votes. At the very least the illegal votes could be tossed out and in many cases it would be possible to arrest and convict the perpetrator. Though the mere fact you are required to supply a fingerprint would be enough to deter almost all would be illegal voters. And more importantly, a small sample cross checked against all ballots would be enough to determine if illegal voting was likely to have changed the result of the election.
I find it completely implausible that illegal voting by undocumented residents is a widespread problem. Most all undocumented workers do everything they can to stay off the radar - to NOT come into contact with any government entities, whether it be getting pulled over for a traffic violation or voting in an election you have no right to vote in.
End secret ballots?
Where did I suggest we post a public database of people's names with their votes? The system I suggested would certainly be more of a secret ballot than the oral voting that was conducted in the early years of our nation.
All such a system would have to do is check fingerprint against fingerprint - only then if a match on two ballots was found would it be necessary to connect fingerprint with name. What's more, illegal votes could be removed from the vote totals even if the perpetrator were never caught (their prints might not be in any system anywhere). Presently, to remove an illegal vote from the vote total requires that the perpetrator not only be caught, but that he truthfully testify as to what his vote was. If you place the goal of holding a fair election higher than the goal of punishing those who would try to make it unfair - I think this system or a similar one would be best.
Some of the more obtuse here seem to missing the salient points:
1. How are "tens of thousands" going to be denied the vote if they are required to present positive identification? As others have observed, they still have almost a year to obtain the required documentation.
2. Most Americans who reach the age of 18 have some type of photo ID, whether a driver's license or other state-issued ID, or school IDs required by many school districts and universities nationwide.
We already have laws against casting illegal ballots. Just enforce the ones on the books already.3. It is beneficial to both sides (libs vs. cons), both of which claim fraud on the part of the other, to ensure that each vote cast is legitimate.
You've been provided with other reasons, you're just ignoring them.The only reason I can see for not requiring positive ID is that those who are undocumented are viewed as potential supporters for one side, or the other.
The problem isn't their intelligence, its the lack of documentation that many of them have.4. That more minorities do not recognize the implied belief that they are too stupid, lazy, incompetent, or otherwise unable to acquire the documentation required to vote.
5. Anyone that interested in having their vote count should be motivated enough to acquire whatever is necessary to do so.
I do agree that if a state should require photo ID, they should be provided at low cost to any who can produce proper documentation. $5.00 is the cost of a can of Pringles and a Coke.
Some of the more obtuse here seem to missing the salient points:
1. How are "tens of thousands" going to be denied the vote if they are required to present positive identification? As others have observed, they still have almost a year to obtain the required documentation.
2. Most Americans who reach the age of 18 have some type of photo ID, whether a driver's license or other state-issued ID, or school IDs required by many school districts and universities nationwide.
3. It is beneficial to both sides (libs vs. cons), both of which claim fraud on the part of the other, to ensure that each vote cast is legitimate. The only reason I can see for not requiring positive ID is that those who are undocumented are viewed as potential supporters for one side, or the other.
4. That more minorities do not recognize the implied belief that they are too stupid, lazy, incompetent, or otherwise unable to acquire the documentation required to vote.
5. Anyone that interested in having their vote count should be motivated enough to acquire whatever is necessary to do so.
I do agree that if a state should require photo ID, they should be provided at low cost to any who can produce proper documentation. $5.00 is the cost of a can of Pringles and a Coke.
81,938 voters
in north carolina.
These people exsist and your team wants their voting rights stripped to protect a non exsistant problem.
The facts a very clear.
You just ignore the facts
81,938 voters in one state.
This is why the republicans want to have these laws to keep voters from voting.
Remember they dont want everyone to vote
Maybe they were in a line to get Welfare benefits? (But that would require ID too, wouldn't it)?81,938 voters
in north carolina.
These people exsist and your team wants their voting rights stripped to protect a non exsistant problem.
The facts a very clear.
You just ignore the facts
The state of SC provides FREE transportation for ANY person without an ID. Gov Haley already had this and had the vehicles and drivers ready to pick up any person, and guess what? Less than 100 of those 81,000 bothered to take the free ride to get the free ID.
IF a person is so lazy, so incapable, so incompetent that they can't get a damn ID card, and pass on a free ride to get an ID card, then they are too fucking stupid to be voting anyway. Those same people also cannot drive without an ID, can't buy beer, can't buy cigarettes, or cough syrup, or rent a movie from Blockbuster, or use a credit card at a store. People without ID's are fucking lazy and incompetent. Screw 'em.
End secret ballots?
Where did I suggest we post a public database of people's names with their votes? The system I suggested would certainly be more of a secret ballot than the oral voting that was conducted in the early years of our nation.
All such a system would have to do is check fingerprint against fingerprint - only then if a match on two ballots was found would it be necessary to connect fingerprint with name. What's more, illegal votes could be removed from the vote totals even if the perpetrator were never caught (their prints might not be in any system anywhere). Presently, to remove an illegal vote from the vote total requires that the perpetrator not only be caught, but that he truthfully testify as to what his vote was. If you place the goal of holding a fair election higher than the goal of punishing those who would try to make it unfair - I think this system or a similar one would be best.
You realize that there are many Americans whose fingerprints are not in any database?
So how many legitimate voters would be eliminated because of that?
There is nothing unfair about requiring identification.
Maybe we should have everyone who votes dip their finger in purple ink?
.That would at least eliminate those who "vote early, vote often!"
You misunderstand what the formulation means. It doesn't justify any illegal act."better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"
Yeah, getting a photo ID is equivalent to an innocent person going to jail, dumbass.
I didn't say it was.
That's good, because using the "Blackstone formulation" to justify illegal voting has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Glad to hear that you're not that stupid.
Some of the more obtuse here seem to missing the salient points:
1. How are "tens of thousands" going to be denied the vote if they are required to present positive identification? As others have observed, they still have almost a year to obtain the required documentation.
2. Most Americans who reach the age of 18 have some type of photo ID, whether a driver's license or other state-issued ID, or school IDs required by many school districts and universities nationwide.
3. It is beneficial to both sides (libs vs. cons), both of which claim fraud on the part of the other, to ensure that each vote cast is legitimate. The only reason I can see for not requiring positive ID is that those who are undocumented are viewed as potential supporters for one side, or the other.
4. That more minorities do not recognize the implied belief that they are too stupid, lazy, incompetent, or otherwise unable to acquire the documentation required to vote.
5. Anyone that interested in having their vote count should be motivated enough to acquire whatever is necessary to do so.
I do agree that if a state should require photo ID, they should be provided at low cost to any who can produce proper documentation. $5.00 is the cost of a can of Pringles and a Coke.
I totally agree with everything you've said. It's not rocket science. Even elderly and disabled in nursing homes can easily be assisted. As long as a person is here legally, there shouldn't be any issue.
I have to believe it's a matter of protecting the illegals that vote and there is an estimated 20 million of them here. They could have hundreds of millions of children, who are eligible to vote, though it's unfair that people can sneak in and drop anchor and we end up with a large population that is largely bitter towards Americans because the majority don't approve of open borders and illegal immigration. When politicians talk about immigration reform, they simply mean amnesty. They want the votes from that big crowd of people who more or less invaded us because our laws aren't enforced. Among that crowd are people who believe that part or all of the U.S. belongs to Mexico and they want it back. Of course, they'll vote for candidates who call people who demand border security "enemies."
Having voter ID laws would stop those community organizers, like ACORN, from cheating the system. We know illegals vote, we know dead people have cast votes and we know people have voted more than once. We don't know the extent of it and it's hard to catch people when the Dems fight against updating voter rolls. We don't know where we're at and it's impossible to verify each vote cast in the past. Of course, Dems believe that illegals need to be represented and strive to ensure that they have a say in things. I disagree with that. The illegals have a voice - in their home country and they need to go back and help change their homeland, not come to ours and make demands.
The best we can do is ensure that from now on, each voter is actually qualified to vote.
Where did I suggest we post a public database of people's names with their votes? The system I suggested would certainly be more of a secret ballot than the oral voting that was conducted in the early years of our nation.
All such a system would have to do is check fingerprint against fingerprint - only then if a match on two ballots was found would it be necessary to connect fingerprint with name. What's more, illegal votes could be removed from the vote totals even if the perpetrator were never caught (their prints might not be in any system anywhere). Presently, to remove an illegal vote from the vote total requires that the perpetrator not only be caught, but that he truthfully testify as to what his vote was. If you place the goal of holding a fair election higher than the goal of punishing those who would try to make it unfair - I think this system or a similar one would be best.
You realize that there are many Americans whose fingerprints are not in any database?
So the perpetrator would not be caught but their ballots could still be thrown out.
ZERO. You don't get the idea. You take a ballot and check the fingerprint on that ballot AGAINST ALL OTHER BALLOTS - not against any database of fingerprints and names. If it turns up twice in one election we know someone voted twice and even if we can't later match that print to a name to arrest them we can at least throw out the illegal ballots.
Wouldn't necessarily have to be a fingerprint. Any kind of biometric that is identifying and unique.
People are required to identify themselves already. You can't just show up and vote w/o giving your name and address
Maybe we should have everyone who votes dip their finger in purple ink?
Are you mocking the democracy in Iraq that thousands of U.S. servicemen gave their lives for?
.That would at least eliminate those who "vote early, vote often!"
How many people actually vote more than once? How often do you think it changes the outcome of elections? Illegal voting is not a huge problem in this country for the simple reason that most ordinary people aren't willing to commit crimes to help out politicians and those who are willing to do such things are doing a lot worse than casting an illegal vote. I'd be much more worried about someone (in either party) rigging an election by ballot stuffing or by tossing ballots away than by convincing ordinary folks en masse to commit felonious acts of fraud - because the latter is simply the less practical way to steal an election.
Not to mention the obvious fact that the average poll worker can't tell a fake ID from a real one any better than your average doorman at a bar - and every weekend across the nation thousands of underage drinkers gain access to bars with fake ID's. It someone really wants to obtain fake identification so they can vote twice, they can do it.
81,938 voters
in north carolina.
These people exsist and your team wants their voting rights stripped to protect a non exsistant problem.
The facts a very clear.
You just ignore the facts
The state of SC provides FREE transportation for ANY person without an ID. Gov Haley already had this and had the vehicles and drivers ready to pick up any person, and guess what? Less than 100 of those 81,000 bothered to take the free ride to get the free ID.
IF a person is so lazy, so incapable, so incompetent that they can't get a damn ID card, and pass on a free ride to get an ID card, then they are too fucking stupid to be voting anyway.
Those same people also cannot drive without an ID, can't buy beer, can't buy cigarettes, or cough syrup, or rent a movie from Blockbuster, or use a credit card at a store. People without ID's are fucking lazy and incompetent. Screw 'em.
so you are for keeping legal Americans from voting to protect nothing but to punish them for not meeting your arbitrary rules
Some of the more obtuse here seem to missing the salient points:
1. How are "tens of thousands" going to be denied the vote if they are required to present positive identification? As others have observed, they still have almost a year to obtain the required documentation.
2. Most Americans who reach the age of 18 have some type of photo ID, whether a driver's license or other state-issued ID, or school IDs required by many school districts and universities nationwide.
3. It is beneficial to both sides (libs vs. cons), both of which claim fraud on the part of the other, to ensure that each vote cast is legitimate. The only reason I can see for not requiring positive ID is that those who are undocumented are viewed as potential supporters for one side, or the other.
4. That more minorities do not recognize the implied belief that they are too stupid, lazy, incompetent, or otherwise unable to acquire the documentation required to vote.
5. Anyone that interested in having their vote count should be motivated enough to acquire whatever is necessary to do so.
I do agree that if a state should require photo ID, they should be provided at low cost to any who can produce proper documentation. $5.00 is the cost of a can of Pringles and a Coke.
I totally agree with everything you've said. It's not rocket science. Even elderly and disabled in nursing homes can easily be assisted. As long as a person is here legally, there shouldn't be any issue.
I have to believe it's a matter of protecting the illegals that vote and there is an estimated 20 million of them here. They could have hundreds of millions of children, who are eligible to vote, though it's unfair that people can sneak in and drop anchor and we end up with a large population that is largely bitter towards Americans because the majority don't approve of open borders and illegal immigration. When politicians talk about immigration reform, they simply mean amnesty. They want the votes from that big crowd of people who more or less invaded us because our laws aren't enforced. Among that crowd are people who believe that part or all of the U.S. belongs to Mexico and they want it back. Of course, they'll vote for candidates who call people who demand border security "enemies."
Having voter ID laws would stop those community organizers, like ACORN, from cheating the system. We know illegals vote, we know dead people have cast votes and we know people have voted more than once. We don't know the extent of it and it's hard to catch people when the Dems fight against updating voter rolls. We don't know where we're at and it's impossible to verify each vote cast in the past. Of course, Dems believe that illegals need to be represented and strive to ensure that they have a say in things. I disagree with that. The illegals have a voice - in their home country and they need to go back and help change their homeland, not come to ours and make demands.
The best we can do is ensure that from now on, each voter is actually qualified to vote.
Undocumented workers as a general rule do not vote and prefer to stay off the radar as much as possible. The idea that they are illegally voting en masse is frankly - absurd.You've obviously never met an undocumented worker. My step-father worked undocumented in this nation for many years and voting illegally in an election is the absolute last thing he would have done. He did everything possible to avoid all encounters with government officials, and to voluntarily walk into a voting office to commit a felony just to cast one vote would have been the dumbest thing imaginable for him or any undocumented worker to do.
(EDIT: sorry if I accidentally re-formated your quote - I didn't mean to)You realize that there are many Americans whose fingerprints are not in any database?
So the perpetrator would not be caught but their ballots could still be thrown out.
ZERO. You don't get the idea. You take a ballot and check the fingerprint on that ballot AGAINST ALL OTHER BALLOTS - not against any database of fingerprints and names. If it turns up twice in one election we know someone voted twice and even if we can't later match that print to a name to arrest them we can at least throw out the illegal ballots.
Wouldn't necessarily have to be a fingerprint. Any kind of biometric that is identifying and unique.
People are required to identify themselves already. You can't just show up and vote w/o giving your name and address
Are you mocking the democracy in Iraq that thousands of U.S. servicemen gave their lives for?
.That would at least eliminate those who "vote early, vote often!"
How many people actually vote more than once? How often do you think it changes the outcome of elections? Illegal voting is not a huge problem in this country for the simple reason that most ordinary people aren't willing to commit crimes to help out politicians and those who are willing to do such things are doing a lot worse than casting an illegal vote. I'd be much more worried about someone (in either party) rigging an election by ballot stuffing or by tossing ballots away than by convincing ordinary folks en masse to commit felonious acts of fraud - because the latter is simply the less practical way to steal an election.
Not to mention the obvious fact that the average poll worker can't tell a fake ID from a real one any better than your average doorman at a bar - and every weekend across the nation thousands of underage drinkers gain access to bars with fake ID's. It someone really wants to obtain fake identification so they can vote twice, they can do it.
So, why is it you cannot get an ID?
All this fuss about what is essentially a non-issue, unless you intend to break the law, or to encourage others to do so?
Personally, I'd like to see anyone who wishes to vote pass the same test foreigners have to pass to become citizens.
Administer it the last year of high school. I guarantee you, most of your favored constituency would fail flat out because they are so abysmally ignorant of their own system of government and history.
And the test is a lot more challenging then trotting their stupid, lazy azzes down to the DMV for and ID.
But wait, here's an idea! Each polling place should have a link into the DMV databases. If someone shows up to vote without an ID, just check the database. The cops do it all the time. If a valid ID has been issued, it can be viewed online. If the prospective "voter" is not in any identification database, they don't vote, period. Hell, that's a lot more inclusive and efficient than checking fingerprint databases.
so you are for keeping legal Americans from voting to protect nothing but to punish them for not meeting your arbitrary rules
If they're legal American citizens, then they should have no problem obtaining a legally issued photo ID to vote.
Now STFU you incredibly stupid, ignorant, steaming pile of dog shit leftist hack.
Why should they have no problem?so you are for keeping legal Americans from voting to protect nothing but to punish them for not meeting your arbitrary rules
If they're legal American citizens, then they should have no problem obtaining a legally issued photo ID to vote.
I totally agree with everything you've said. It's not rocket science. Even elderly and disabled in nursing homes can easily be assisted. As long as a person is here legally, there shouldn't be any issue.
I have to believe it's a matter of protecting the illegals that vote and there is an estimated 20 million of them here. They could have hundreds of millions of children, who are eligible to vote, though it's unfair that people can sneak in and drop anchor and we end up with a large population that is largely bitter towards Americans because the majority don't approve of open borders and illegal immigration. When politicians talk about immigration reform, they simply mean amnesty. They want the votes from that big crowd of people who more or less invaded us because our laws aren't enforced. Among that crowd are people who believe that part or all of the U.S. belongs to Mexico and they want it back. Of course, they'll vote for candidates who call people who demand border security "enemies."
Having voter ID laws would stop those community organizers, like ACORN, from cheating the system. We know illegals vote, we know dead people have cast votes and we know people have voted more than once. We don't know the extent of it and it's hard to catch people when the Dems fight against updating voter rolls. We don't know where we're at and it's impossible to verify each vote cast in the past. Of course, Dems believe that illegals need to be represented and strive to ensure that they have a say in things. I disagree with that. The illegals have a voice - in their home country and they need to go back and help change their homeland, not come to ours and make demands.
The best we can do is ensure that from now on, each voter is actually qualified to vote.
Undocumented workers as a general rule do not vote and prefer to stay off the radar as much as possible. The idea that they are illegally voting en masse is frankly - absurd.You've obviously never met an undocumented worker. My step-father worked undocumented in this nation for many years and voting illegally in an election is the absolute last thing he would have done. He did everything possible to avoid all encounters with government officials, and to voluntarily walk into a voting office to commit a felony just to cast one vote would have been the dumbest thing imaginable for him or any undocumented worker to do.
You know, at this point, your arguments about illegals not voting are as well-documented and based on facts as you claim the counter arguments that they do vote (illegally) to be.
so you are for keeping legal Americans from voting to protect nothing but to punish them for not meeting your arbitrary rules
If they're legal American citizens, then they should have no problem obtaining a legally issued photo ID to vote.
Now STFU you incredibly stupid, ignorant, steaming pile of dog shit leftist hack.
Exactly.... you need a vaild ID to do almost everything from cash a check to get a library card.
Why should they have no problem?so you are for keeping legal Americans from voting to protect nothing but to punish them for not meeting your arbitrary rules
If they're legal American citizens, then they should have no problem obtaining a legally issued photo ID to vote.
